Gen 3 my team

[snookajam]

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 32 Spd / 168 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Rest
- Roar
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt

dropped hidden power for roar. only loses coverage against swampert - who can't do anything back at my team in the first place since he isn't going to wall any of my attacks (this team doesn't really attack, see?)
and roar helps with spikes damage obviously
e.g. enemy milotic used recover. zapdos switched in. enemy switched to blissey. blissey took spikes damage. zapdos used roar. milotic is back
depending on blissey's health before switching in, it could be at <25% after roaring. spikes does more damage than you think >.<

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 12 Spd / 54 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

as previously mentioned, i don't attack
obviously i switch the first turn to check for magneton

Dusclops (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Toxic
- Will-O-Wisp

double status. walls all kinds of special attacks, puts status on opponent and rests. can take 3+ hits from any unboosted special attacker. except something like houndoom of course

Claydol @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 144 Def / 16 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Psychic
- Rapid Spin
- Rest

spinner. psychic is for gengar. i don't get to use claydol much btw, its just for spinning and backup defence against tyranitar

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 56 Spd / 64 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Leech Seed
- Perish Song
- Psychic
- Recover

leech seed forces switches, and is probably my fav move in the game
perish song for last pokes e.g. snorlax
survives CB hp flying from salamence and the likes

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 44 Def / 20 Spd / 96 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

restalk is a lot more useful than protect


my own thoughts:
- dies to critical hits of course
- needs more regice coverage - dusclops would only die to critical hits

i've tried shadowball over toxic on dusclops and immediately lost the next few games, so pls don't suggest that

sleep talk is good i haven't had much trouble with it picking the wrong moves. it also gives you random kills when the enemy switches in some random pokemon and doesn't expect sleeptalk. especially the double status on dusclops

pls give comments, thanks

 

[Umby]

SD Hera can get you. Would you consider a different Skarm set with Drill Peck/HP Flying and maybe switching out Swampert for Vaporeon?

 

[z0MG]

ww? >_>
yes i know whirlwind is a pokemon move

 

[Cruiselax]

Very stable team, but you should consider putting curse on swampert for some offence and breaking some stalls.

 

[Umby]

I recant my original statement, as switching Swampert for Vappy means you have HP Ice Raikou issues.

 

[Cruiselax]

Now that you mention raikou, it could put a dent on the team. Seeing how most basic raikou teams carry duggy and your only raikou wall is celebi, its bound that duggy will catch celebi. Plus perish song only have 8pp, so yeah, you get what I mean.

edit: the above statement is only for hp grass kou, don't nag me kiddies.

 

[Cerivious]

Funny that you should mention it, your team has a big Houndoom weak. Everyone on your team is at most 2HKO'd by a Crunch/Fire Blast, and that's not counting Modest with Petaya.

99% of Raikous use HP Grass nowadays anyway, and imo Synchronize is right in that you should switch Swampert out for another bulky water like Vaporeon/Suicune/Milotic. Milotic handles dragons better with Recover, Suicune can rack up Spikes damage with Roar, and Vaporeon can maybe...um Wish??Haze??

 

[z0MG]

Dusclops seems like your Starmie counter, so it needs Shadow Ball.

 

[snookajam]

@synchronise - how does swords dance heracross get me? I whirlwind it away after one swords dance and stuff like brickbreak isn't going to do a lot

@Cruiselax - if i put curse, i can't use rest or sleeptalk, which is bad

@raikou statements - perish song is enough, really. with spikes, raikou won't even be switching in more than 2 or 3 times

@Cerivious - i'm trying out suicune, can't tell any difference yet

@zOMG - no i said already don't suggest shadowball, it sucks, really. i'd rather depend on rest to stall our starmie's pp

 

[Umby]

47%-52% is heavy IMO, but that's just because I'm pretty conservative. That's not including Reversalcross.

 

[Oxypad]

Four Sleep Talkers...seriously? Get some skill bro. If and when you win using this team, it's more likely a testament to the luck factor of sleep talk rather than your skill.

How about lessening the sleep talking to open up more move slots (still keeping rest on things) while giving celebi heal bell.

 

[Bugsy23]

you can work around Raikou with this team, but my problem is the fact that your stall team is relying too much on roar/whirlwind to do damage and realistically have no other way to slow down Magneton teams with heavy hitters, espcially those coupled with Heracross (albeit Hera could beat this team single-handedly once it notices that Skarmory has no attacks). I think Claydol is dead weight on this team, and could be switch for something to sure up your holes. Dugtrio is an interesting play. I'm also not a big fan of none attacking Dusclops', and in my experience found Fire Punch to be a really fun attack (I wish I still had my EVs, but I'll get back to you on that). Zapdos is the only way you can even touch an enemy Skarm, so pay attention to that.

 

[Umby]

@ oxypad
I don't see what's wrong with excessive sleep talking. There have been plenty of solid and interesting teams that run sleep talk like this. Hell, I even think Iggeh had an NU team with 5 sleep talkers that worked well.

 

[Oxypad]

@ oxypad
I don't see what's wrong with excessive sleep talking. There have been plenty of solid and interesting teams that run sleep talk like this. Hell, I even think Iggeh had an NU team with 5 sleep talkers that worked well.

Sleep talk teams are solid, surely, but not interesting. (They're just stall, and stall is solid).

With 24 move slots, giving rest + sleep talk to four pokes means 33.3%, 8 out of 24, are occupied...and it gets worse when there are five pokes (10/24) or a whole team 12/24, that's 50%. If people are screaming out that "this team needs offense" or what not, cut out the sleep talking for real attacks. Real coverage. The "resting" is what makes teams solid. Hence in my previous post, I said Celebi should have heal bell once the sleep talking is cut out.

sleep talk is good i haven't had much trouble with it picking the wrong moves. it also gives you random kills when the enemy switches in some random pokemon and doesn't expect sleeptalk. especially the double status on dusclops

It's hard to get random kills when sleep talk chooses rest. (Love it when that happens.) Also, it's real haxy if you do get that random kill. Looking at your team, the odds are that a Salamence could sweep if Swampert is asleep and low enough on health to be 2hkoed. If sleep talk was so lucky to choose ice beam over rest/eq that one turn in which it survives, I'd be pissed as the Salamence trainer. Sleep talk is not dependable!!! Consciously choose a move instead of having the computer choose it for you. The whole premise of "prediction" is thrown out the window.

my own thoughts:
- dies to critical hits of course
- needs more regice coverage - dusclops would only die to critical hits

- Critical hits suck. Can't control that.
- Use my personal favorite, thick fat Hariyama. Shit, actually try Hitmontop maybe over Claydol. Sick trait in intimidate. High sp. def. Can spin, but then 4/6 are hit by spikes. Would still like to see HP Fly on skarm though. And another earthquaker if you get rid of Claydol.

 

[Umby]

"Interesting" would be a matter of perspective, wouldn't you say? In any case, your personal vendetta against Sleep Talk shouldn't warrant your suggestions (in which that seems to more than your logically solid reasons).

You also seem to misunderstand a small concept of Sleep Talking. Of course there's the obvious reason of absorbing a Hypnosis or not leaving yourself vulnerable while asleep, but you put a heavy influence on the opponent's next decision. A brave Skarmory might switch in as Zapdos is sleeping to lay down a Spike layer, but vs Sleep Talk is risks being KO'd. Now, while virtually Zapdos has a 1/3 chance of doing so, there's not really a damage risk involved to it, personally. Skarmory, however is risking a lot of health. So, in truth, Sleep Talk isn't truly meant to keep on the offensive (Unless Guts is involved) but rather to help close off any set-up openings that might otherwise be available to them. Sometimes it's just there to counter Sleep induction (not everyone likes to use Blissey or Heal Bell Celebi). And while Aromatherapy/Heal Bell are solid uses in their own right, you have to consider that with only a few being able to learn these clerical moves, the opponent can generally be trusted to pin down a cleric by setting up on that turn. This isn't a 100% case, but no one likes to have either Celebi or Blissey on EVERY team they make. In this case, it's common to turn to Sleep Talk.

 

[Oxypad]

@ Synch- Alright, so Iggeh's team must have been interesting to you.

But four sleep talkers. Count them...four. Might as well make every move a dice throw...no thinking behind it. One sleep talker is understandable (even if I am personally against it). Two is stretching it. Four is ridiculous.

My suggestions make complete sense. Go ahead and keep maybe 1 sleep talker. Then pave the way for new moves. Defensive Hariyama would help against Regice, Houndoom, and even psychic-less Jynx and Raikou (whirlwind it away + perish song celebi as last poke.) But snookajam must still want a spinner if Claydol goes.

 

[touched]

So it's a stallish team. Just because you don't like having a lot of sleep talkers, he doesn't have to change it. I can understand your opinion about sleep talking, but it's kinda counterproductive to his team. Sleeptalkers force the opponent to think twice about setting up or staying in or whatever and risk getting hit, and thus are forced to switch, which racks up Spikes damage, which is what a stall team is supposed to be doing.

 

[z0MG]

@synchronise - how does swords dance heracross get me? I whirlwind it away after one swords dance and stuff like brickbreak isn't going to do a lot

@Cruiselax - if i put curse, i can't use rest or sleeptalk, which is bad

@raikou statements - perish song is enough, really. with spikes, raikou won't even be switching in more than 2 or 3 times

@Cerivious - i'm trying out suicune, can't tell any difference yet

@zOMG - no i said already don't suggest shadowball, it sucks, really. i'd rather depend on rest to stall our starmie's pp

you're starmie weak then.

 

[Oxypad]

Not too Starmie weak unless it gets passed some calm minds. Zapdos threatens it and Celebi holds it off.

Funny, even with all the sleep talking, substitute Jynx fucks shit up (no ice resist). So it sleeps something and you could predict that and rely on sleep talk to phaze it (Zap or Skarm, neither of which take Jynx lightly, and Celebi will take HUGE damage before Perish Singing. Swampert could only work if it chooses EQ while sleeping). Shadow Ball on Dusclops would help with that and Starmie. *Cough*-Drop sleep talk-*Cough*

Honestly, Sleep Talk is not impressive and shouldn't make people "think twice." The decision to stay in or switch out in certain situations is simple if you just consider the odds. I would normally stay in if I think I can improve my position since I remember Sleep Talk can choose rest and that's a wasted turn for the opponent while I stay in and Dragon Dance or whatever. If I switch out, it usually benefits the opponent since they are then 1 turn closer to waking up and they'd be glad that I switched.

I suppose if status and Spikes damage is your key to victory, then so be it. But not only does Sleep Talk take no brains to come up with, it takes no brains to use. Move slots are precious and, even on stall teams like this one, should be better filled to cover weaknesses--and every team has those.

 

[Umby]

Not that you have to think excessively hard to make a moveset in any case. And contrary to what you may think, people do think twice around sleep talking Pokemon. It's hard enough most battlers have to deal with constant para's and crits, even when the odds are said to favor them, but when they can do something to pacify the odds of sleep talk screwing them over, they most likely will do something pacify it.

But since I've been off the real topic for the last couple of posts, and because the argument has drawn my attention to some things:

1) Really consider Shadow Ball over Toxic on Dusclops.
2) Consider Drill Peck/HP Flying on Skarmory.
3) Swampert has its back covered, so you shouldn't have any problems keeping it's health up, therefore Sleep Talk isn't exactly necessary.
4) I say this, only because I like the moveset, but use Light Screen, Thunderbolt, Toxic/Hidden Power, Rest/Roar. You have no true special wall, and Light Screen would at least help to appease that.
5) Consider experimenting with Cloyster+StalkMeta over Skarmory + Claydol/Swampert. StalkMeta unarguably stops Jynx cold, and along with Swampert/Claydol, you still keep a huge defensive prowess against Tyranitar should the other fall. Cloyster is there to take over Spikes when Skarmory would be dropped from the team, and takes Claydol's spinning position were it removed.


All that, and Raikou is still a bitch.

 

[snookajam]

Four Sleep Talkers...seriously? Get some skill bro. If and when you win using this team, it's more likely a testament to the luck factor of sleep talk rather than your skill.

How about lessening the sleep talking to open up more move slots (still keeping rest on things) while giving celebi heal bell.

uh telling me to get some skill is totally unjustified. sleep talk has more uses than just "randomly picking a move".
lets say somehow i switch my swampert into tyranitar and gets hit by earthquake. i'll die unless i rest. swampert takes another hit and rests. either i continue getting hit by eq or use sleeptalk and whacks him back, either forcing him to switch or making him get hit by earthquake. 33% chance is a lot. its about the same chance that thunder misses, or sleep powder misses, or rock slide flinch, and im sure you agree with me that it happens a lot

you can work around Raikou with this team, but my problem is the fact that your stall team is relying too much on roar/whirlwind to do damage and realistically have no other way to slow down Magneton teams with heavy hitters, espcially those coupled with Heracross (albeit Hera could beat this team single-handedly once it notices that Skarmory has no attacks). I think Claydol is dead weight on this team, and could be switch for something to sure up your holes. Dugtrio is an interesting play. I'm also not a big fan of none attacking Dusclops', and in my experience found Fire Punch to be a really fun attack (I wish I still had my EVs, but I'll get back to you on that). Zapdos is the only way you can even touch an enemy Skarm, so pay attention to that.

how would fire punch help? also i don't really need to hit an enemy skarm. most of the time i kill them with zapdos. first time its zapdos vs skarm. skarm switches to blissey and i roar. next time when its zapdos vs skarm again the enemy doesn't switch, thinking i'll roar again. thats when i tbolt. takes some predicting though. and thats skill for you oxypad.

@ oxypad
I don't see what's wrong with excessive sleep talking. There have been plenty of solid and interesting teams that run sleep talk like this. Hell, I even think Iggeh had an NU team with 5 sleep talkers that worked well.

sleeptalk rocks. thanks for the support =]

@ Synch- Alright, so Iggeh's team must have been interesting to you.

But four sleep talkers. Count them...four. Might as well make every move a dice throw...no thinking behind it. One sleep talker is understandable (even if I am personally against it). Two is stretching it. Four is ridiculous.

My suggestions make complete sense. Go ahead and keep maybe 1 sleep talker. Then pave the way for new moves. Defensive Hariyama would help against Regice, Houndoom, and even psychic-less Jynx and Raikou (whirlwind it away + perish song celebi as last poke.) But snookajam must still want a spinner if Claydol goes.

in case you haven't realised everything has rest. and rest goes well with sleeptalk. zapdos needs rest. skarm needs rest to continue using spikes or whirlwind even while asleep after resting off damage. dusclops inflicts status on enemies which switch in after seeing that i'm asleep - this is damn useful. much more useful than something like shadowball.

you're starmie weak then.

not like starmie does anything against me.

Not that you have to think excessively hard to make a moveset in any case. And contrary to what you may think, people do think twice around sleep talking Pokemon. It's hard enough most battlers have to deal with constant para's and crits, even when the odds are said to favor them, but when they can do something to pacify the odds of sleep talk screwing them over, they most likely will do something pacify it.

But since I've been off the real topic for the last couple of posts, and because the argument has drawn my attention to some things:

1) Really consider Shadow Ball over Toxic on Dusclops.
2) Consider Drill Peck/HP Flying on Skarmory.
3) Swampert has its back covered, so you shouldn't have any problems keeping it's health up, therefore Sleep Talk isn't exactly necessary.
4) I say this, only because I like the moveset, but use Light Screen, Thunderbolt, Toxic/Hidden Power, Rest/Roar. You have no true special wall, and Light Screen would at least help to appease that.
5) Consider experimenting with Cloyster+StalkMeta over Skarmory + Claydol/Swampert. StalkMeta unarguably stops Jynx cold, and along with Swampert/Claydol, you still keep a huge defensive prowess against Tyranitar should the other fall. Cloyster is there to take over Spikes when Skarmory would be dropped from the team, and takes Claydol's spinning position were it removed.

All that, and Raikou is still a bitch.

why is raikou still a bitch?

 

[touched]

Because it can switch into half of your team, sub, then either CM or hit something SE. eg, it switches into Skarm or Clops, subs on the switch, then TBs Zap when you roar it, Grass Pert/Dol behind the sub, or CMs up on Celebi. Yes it can Perish song it, but boosted TB still hurts and 8 PP will get Pressure'd away fast. You can predict around it obviously, and Roar it away, but it's still difficult to deal with.

 

[Karrot]

Pressure only affects contact moves. He has exactly eight perish songs to work with, which, if you think about it, is not that many as this team will probably lead you into a 150+ turn match if the opponent is not 100% offensive. Perish Song will wear away very quickly, and without a sandstorm running Raikou can come in many times even with Spikes on the field. Your team already lacks a real way to damage it effectively, too, as with Claydol asleep from constantly switching into HP: Grass you opponent might be able to pull off a couple Spikes.

Attackless Dusclops and Skarmory gives your opponent hundreds of chances to come back and possibly heal off spikes damage. Zapdos is also much too easy prey for Ground Pokemon. All teams, including stall teams, need attacks on at least 5/6 of their team of else you are being counter-productive to your overall strategy. This is one of the main reasons why my stall team was successful; 2/3 of my team carried two attacks, and the other two Pokemon carrying one, giving the opponent a hard time when they are trying to recuperate weakened Pokemon. That is what a stall team is all about: dealing a lot of passive damage and giving little chance for them to recover it back.

 

[snookajam]

Pressure only affects contact moves. He has exactly eight perish songs to work with, which, if you think about it, is not that many as this team will probably lead you into a 150+ turn match if the opponent is not 100% offensive. Perish Song will wear away very quickly, and without a sandstorm running Raikou can come in many times even with Spikes on the field. Your team already lacks a real way to damage it effectively, too, as with Claydol asleep from constantly switching into HP: Grass you opponent might be able to pull off a couple Spikes.

Attackless Dusclops and Skarmory gives your opponent hundreds of chances to come back and possibly heal off spikes damage. Zapdos is also much too easy prey for Ground Pokemon. All teams, including stall teams, need attacks on at least 5/6 of their team of else you are being counter-productive to your overall strategy. This is one of the main reasons why my stall team was successful; 2/3 of my team carried two attacks, and the other two Pokemon carrying one, giving the opponent a hard time when they are trying to recuperate weakened Pokemon. That is what a stall team is all about: dealing a lot of passive damage and giving little chance for them to recover it back.

ok i understand the logic behind the raikou parts, but whenever i fight an enemy raikou i don't seem to have this problem. each time it switches in it takes at least 12% from spikes. i switch to celebi while it attacks or subs or calm minds


case 1: attack
celebi takes the hit. enemy raikou subs to block leech seed but gets hit by psychic instead. if he calm minds the first time, psychic takes off almost 20%. next turn i perish song.

case 2: sub
perish song. by the time his perish count is 1, raikou would have slightly left than 80% or so.

anyway it really doesn't take more than 2 perish songs to kill off one raikou, factoring in the 1-3 layer of spikes and some roaring by zapdos. raikou does <40% to zapdos with tbolt anyway, and swampert can handle hp ice versions

i don't switch claydol into raikou at all

btw i've never used more than 3-4 perish songs before in any match, and i always play with pp ups, so im thinking that perish song's pp isn't much of a problem.

btw bugsy got the evs for fire punch dusclops?




i've been considering something like blissey over swampert.
wish, aromatherapy, growl, protect/seismic toss.

i can have claydol take over all of swampert's rock resist roles, perhaps have icebeam over rest since to tell the truth i've never used rest on claydol before even after 50+ games with that team (yes i know its really spastic of me to not use a move). that way i can also whack salamence. with wish from blissey i won't need to rest (since it doesn't rest anyway >.<)
aromatherapy wakes up people, i guess... but that kinda takes away the purpose of sleep talk. im not sure about this, pls give comments.
growl - saw it in some thread years ago. forces switches well, makes tanking for everyone else easier after the enemy has -1 attack which is really a lot for stuff like choice banders. also stalls curselax's curse pp, forces switch -> this means more spikes damage yay!


thats just a small thought, not sure about it though. any comments on that idea?

 

[Karrot]

Well, if Raikou doesn't necessarily give you problems then I have no more reason to argue.

About the Growl Blissey...that would be from my stall team. But, tbh, it doesn't really add much aside from covering your potential Houndoom Raikou weakness, but Zapdos actually does very well against Houndoom and burns Fire Blast (the only way Houndoom can do >39% to Zapdos) PP very quickly. You are simply restricting your team's damage dealers even further.

Aromatherapy and Wish are illegal together anyways, so that's out of the question.

What I would recommend in that last slot if you are looking for replacements are Jolly Dugtrio and Snorlax.

Dugtrio should be obvious. It checkmates Raikou/Houndoom and eliminates problems like Tyranitar and Metagross.

Snorlax is a massive powerhouse, and you can either go with the ordinary Curselax (Curse/DE/Shadow Ball/Rest), a Mixlax (DE/EQ/FB/Rest), or something very cool...Toxic Snorlax.

Double-Edge or Return/Flamethrower/Toxic/Rest

Standard Toxic/Fire Move combination that hits every Pokemon, but implemented onto a Snorlax. Toxic hits literally every Snorlax counter and causes massive problems to them: Tyranitar/Dusclops/Water Pokemon/etc.
Flamethrower hits steel types, one of a stall team's worst enemies. Overall, it's a very useful stall tool. Try it out if you want. If you need EVs, I'll get them to you as soon as I have access to Netbattle. (Generally you want to invest in the defenses, and spattack is very helpful to boost Flamethrower's power.)