Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Soiramio3000 said:
breloom and scizor both have a 60 base power priority move.
I did the math and if their piriority had 70 base power they would do almost the same ammount of damage that palafin's jet punch does.
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Breloom and scizor are significantly worse Pokémon than Palafin. This comparison is really poor.

Soiramio3000 said:
the metagame has changed a lot since it got banned.
ogeron can keep it in check by absorbing its water moves.
there is also rilaboom which also has a priority stab that can hit it super effectively.
zamazenta should also be able to tank its hits.
dondozo was always an answer to it.
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Ogerpon is outlasted by Palafij through hazards and Palafin’s bulk up sets. It isn’t nearly as rock solid as you would want to believe. Rilla just loses to Tera+bulk up (and palafin can abuse terrain itself), and zama gets bodied by bulk up Palafin.

Oh and no Dozo wasn’t. It famously got beat by taunt bulk up Palafin.
 
Remember when somebody was saying Ursaluna Bloodmoon was balanced because it was countered by Bronzong (it wasn't actually). This feels like what we are approaching when people say palafin will be balanced.
I wonder how dumber we can get with these reasonings, like how annihilape is balanced because H-Zoroark is immune to both stabs, or regieleki was actually balanced because magnezone, rotom heat and rotom wash resisted both ice and electric.
 
I would like to talk about speed tiers:

It used to be that 100 was a magic speed tier that a lot of pokemon fell on. To be considered fast, a pokemon needed to out speed the 100s. Those below 100 were not necesarrily slow, such as stuff in the 90s, but they weren't fast. Gen 9 power creep has changed this. I would argue that to be considered fast these days, beating the new threshold would need to be around 110 speed or so. This puts you in a range of pokemon such as Ogerpon, Iron Moth, Lycanrock-Dusk, Hisuian Zoroark, and the Lati twins.

Those that fall just below it include those such as Walking Wake, A-tails, Keldeo, and Iron Jugulus. Enamorus, and Iron Treads also fall in sort of this awkward speed tier of between 100 and 110. It's not fast. But it's not necesarrily slow, either. The thing about this speed tier, though, is it isn't very easy to outspeed things even with a Choice Scarf set. There are just a lot of faster options even at +1 speed.

Walking Wake is only really fast if you combine Scarf and Protosyntheses +speed under sun. But to do this you sacrifice significant power, are locked in, and generally are much easier to play around once the set is figured out. Most sets won't run this and most Scarf sets even would run +power. So because of that awkward speed threshold of 109, there are a lot of things that can also boost and outspeed it even under sun.

Scarf Enamorus works so well because it can boost the power with contrary Superpower or Stellar Tera Blast while still being Scarf. But it doesn't actually outspeed a lot of the tier. If Scarf Enamorus was the fastest pokemon on your team, that would probably be considered a slower team. Again, it's just so much more common that you can see faster mons that can also get speed boosts in the generation.

Iron Treads with a Quark Drive speed boost is maybe quick for a hazard lead. But it's not really that fast. It needs at least an additional Rapid Spin to really rely on outspeeding other mons.

Then there are those just above 110 speed. Pokemon that fall just above the 110 speed tier include Scream Tail, Maushold, and Serperior. Also Tornadus and Thunderous are at 111 speed just for the relevance of maybe someone trying an obscure set in OU. Is that even fast, though?

It can be argued that 110 isn't even enough. Maybe 115 should be the threshold since there are a decent amount of mons that are in the 115 speed tier. Most of those are lower tier mons, but still. Does anybody really think of Serperior as fast in this current gen? Iron Valiant may be the first truly fast pokemon in gen 9 OU with 116 base speed and a Booster Energy ability.

I write all this to point out that the speed qualifications are so much more demanding now than they used to be even a gen or two ago. And when we look at sub 100 pokemon, even those in the 90s, I would argue that those pokemon are slow now unless they can get some sort of x2 boost like with Unburden or Swift Swim. And even then, they would have competition that has the same with higher speed tiers. You might be able to nab a surprise KO on an opponent with a Choice Scarf or +1 speed on a sub 100 speed mon, but you probably can't win most games that way.

A bit on roles:

Gen 9 is full of powerful pokemon. A mon that hits hard and is fast is typically known as a glass cannon because it is balanced by the lack of defenses. A mon that hits especially hard and is slow is typically known as a walbreaker. This is usually balanced mostly by a lack of speed. A mon that hits hard, is fast, and has defenses is an Uber. While this is a bit of an oversimplification, I feel this is relevant when talking about the pokemon we think are maybe ban worthy.

Roaring Moon is not only a fast hard hitter with a 119 base speed, but it has Protosynthesis and Dragon Dance to hit harder and faster very easily. It is not necesarrily even a glass cannon as it has base 105 speed and 101 special defense. Either way, the speed tiers and ease of additional boosts helps make it very potent.

To me Kyurem is borderline. However, the biggest reason why I wasn't pro ban because it has sub 100 speed. Most sets run some variant of a special attacker, which typically takes on a wallbreaker role. For gen 9 OU, a sub 100 speed wallbreaker isn't necessarily bad. Even a Choice Scarf set is not very fast and is much easier to play around than alternative special sets. It is true that you can run a physical set with DD and/or Scale Shot to boost speed, but this is generally used for a surprise factor. It takes a couple turns of setup to actually get going as an Ice type. It's simply much easier to counter this. Most of the time, it is just a very strong, sub 100 speed special attacker.

Gouging Fire is also a wallbreaker. It has base 91 speed. The reason why I am more alarmed about Gouging Fire is because it is more likely to boost speed while still maintaining a ridiculous power level. It has Protosynthesis for Energy Booster. Because most sets are physical by nature, this makes Dragon Dance more of a consistent threat. It also cannot be burned. It has a much better defensive typing than any Ice type with bulky stats. There is even the option for a protect that burns, making contact moves for much needed chip somewhat risky against it. All this means that setup with Gouging Fire is easier to get going than it is with Kyurem.

Raging Bolt has base 75 speed. To me, it is a wallbreaker. Thunderclap can get around this, but Thunderclap itself is not as difficult to deal with because of faster Encore and the ground heavy meta. Most teams will run an electric immunity as a matter of course. Many teams will also run at least 1 electric resist such as a dragon or grass type. Waterpon and Wake are neutral, but still. Almost every team that isn't Stall will have faster pokemon with priority moves that outspeed Raging Bolt. When you have all that, you are left with a wallbreaker that has a bit of a priority trick, but not an unmanageable priority trick.

So to summarize:

Roaring Moon is fast. Kyurem and Gouging Fire are slow. Raging Bolt is very slow.

Gouging Fire is the only one of the sub 100 speed mons with enough easy speed boost options that I feel it can more easily punch above its speed tier enough to be particularly problematic in that aspect. It is also the hardest hitting of the bunch.
 
Remember the whole talk about how gouging fire is too strong in sun as it has a good chance to 2hko dozo from full. Let this be a reminder why palafin isn't coming back

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 247-291 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 230-271 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
 
tommytt22 said:
Remember the whole talk about how gouging fire is too strong in sun as it has a good chance to 2hko dozo from full. Let this be a reminder why palafin isn't coming back

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 247-291 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 230-271 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
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Adamant Gouging Fire does more than Palafin
 
EpicGuy321 said:
Adamant Gouging Fire does more than Palafin
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Also, raging fury is a better move than wave crash because you don't take massive amounts of recoil. Of course, gouging fire doesn't have a 60bp priority move to revenge kill faster mons, so I think palafin wins the "most bs calc" out of the two.
 
EpicGuy321 said:
Adamant Gouging Fire does more than Palafin
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Except gouging fire is slower so can you really afford to run adamant and be outsped by tusk? Paladin doesn't mind so much because:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 400-472 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

That one doesn't even require rain
 
Lol Gouging coming back again to wreck their team is so funny, you may want to consider adding a healing wish hatt so that you can use gouging multiple times, I don't know how you'd fit it though.
 
tommytt22 said:
Except gouging fire is slower so can you really afford to run adamant and be outsped by tusk? Paladin doesn't mind so much because:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 400-472 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

That one doesn't even require rain
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True, but adamant has such sheer power that tusk can't switch in more than once.
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Protosynthesis Great Tusk in Sun: 362-426 (83.4 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Plus, most faster things it can take a hit from. I am still a bit adamant :) on if gouging is broken because it can be outsped if it goes for pure power, but the numbers don't lie.
Also, slap on a ribombee and you can fix the speed issue, while also setting up sun.
 
tommytt22 said:
Except gouging fire is slower so can you really afford to run adamant and be outsped by tusk? Paladin doesn't mind so much because:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 400-472 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

That one doesn't even require rain
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Yes you can, because sun has proto speed mons.
 
Wanna talk about :breloom:

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost / Fighting / Water
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch / Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Bulk Up / Swords Dance

EV Spread maximizes recovery from PH, while also outspeeding 0 Speed Gliscor and 227 Speed Raging Bolt. The rest dumped in defense to make it a bit more tankier.

After the loss of Spore, this dude has been almost non-existant in the tier, so, I decided to try the PH set from Gen VI, and I think it is quite good, and have good qualities in this meta.

1.- Sub-FP is a fucking nuke, and it can be set up in front of many mons that are found in balance and stall, like Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Alomomola, even it can set up in front of Skarmory and Corviknight thanks to Bulk Up and/or Tera Ghost.
Tera Fighting has a 70% to 2HKO Dondozo from full HP with FP, guaranteed with SR.
2.- After Toxic Orb has been activated, this mon can be a Knock Off absorber from weak users like non-SD Gliscor, defensive Tusk and many other mons, while avoiding WoW and T-Wave from checks like Torkoal and Clef.
3.- This mon provides another answer to Kingambit, especially when opposing team has burned Tera. You can bait Sucker Punch with Bulk Up and Sub, and you will end KOing it given the chance. Even against Tera Fairy or Tera Flying without Tera Blast, you win.
4.- It can be a nuisance against rain, as it can set up Sub against a scaring Iron Treads. Then you just press FP, and deal massive damage to whatever dares to switch in. Tera Water can flip that MU in your favor, and you can bait Raging Bolt's Thunderclap with Sub or BU, as you outspeed its common EV spread. Also, Tera Water mess up with an unsuspecting Meow.

Of course there are more strong Fighting and Grass types like Tusk and Rilla, but this mon has some good shit under its sleeve. GIve it a try.
 
Lando-San said:
Wanna talk about :breloom:

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost / Fighting / Water
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch / Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Bulk Up / Swords Dance

EV Spread maximizes recovery from PH, while also outspeeding 0 Speed Gliscor and 227 Speed Raging Bolt. The rest dumped in defense to make it a bit more tankier.

After the loss of Spore, this dude has been almost non-existant in the tier, so, I decided to try the PH set from Gen VI, and I think it is quite good, and have good qualities in this meta.

1.- Sub-FP is a fucking nuke, and it can be set up in front of many mons that are found in balance and stall, like Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Alomomola, even it can set up in front of Skarmory and Corviknight thanks to Bulk Up and/or Tera Ghost.
Tera Fighting has a 70% to 2HKO Dondozo from full HP with FP, guaranteed with SR.
2.- After Toxic Orb has been activated, this mon can be a Knock Off absorber from weak users like non-SD Gliscor, defensive Tusk and many other mons, while avoiding WoW and T-Wave from checks like Torkoal and Clef.
3.- This mon provides another answer to Kingambit, especially when opposing team has burned Tera. You can bait Sucker Punch with Bulk Up and Sub, and you will end KOing it given the chance. Even against Tera Fairy or Tera Flying without Tera Blast, you win.
4.- It can be a nuisance against rain, as it can set up Sub against a scaring Iron Treads. Then you just press FP, and deal massive damage to whatever dares to switch in. Tera Water can flip that MU in your favor, and you can bait Raging Bolt's Thunderclap with Sub or BU, as you outspeed its common EV spread. Also, Tera Water mess up with an unsuspecting Meow.

Of course there are more strong Fighting and Grass types like Tusk and Rilla, but this mon has some good shit under its sleeve. GIve it a try.
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I've always liked the idea of sub-punch sets but I struggle with the execution in practise. Got any replays?
 
I think I'll drop the game again, I just don't have any fun in this meta. Somehow, Archaludon ban made the meta even worse by allowing other threats to become even more broken.

In my opinion, these pokemon should all be banned for the game to become enjoyable : Roaring Moon = Raging Bolt = Kingambit > Gouging Fire > H-Samurott > Volcarona > Gliscor

I know the council said to focus on the dragon trio but I just don't see how Kingambit has been able to escape the ban hammer for this long. He is just as bad as Roaring Moon and Raging Bolt so even if it has good defensive value it should not stay in the tier for that reason. Using Tera Flying/Fighting Kingambit to lure Tusk and Ting-lu to open the path for Raging Bolt is one of the most broken things I have ever played with and against ever since I started competitive in gen4.

As far as H-Samurott goes, the Pokemon itself is fine but it happens to have the second most broken move in pokemon history and enable an entire playstyle that is just disgusting to face. You can litteraly turn your brain off with this Pokemon, click Ceaseless Edge once or twice before dying and you'll most likely have 1 or 2 spikes on the opponent field freely for the rest of the game (since these teams will run Goldengo and Pult or a Tera ghost Pokemon too) on top of dealing a good amount of damage. It might not be the most obvious choice for what people would consider broken especially when you have monsters like the others mentionned above but this is the most bull**** Pokemon I have ever seen staying in OU for so long. The fact that you can't interacting with these teams and you are forced to run a boots spam team to be fine is not healthy. Maybe people will realize how toxic these teams are once the obvious broken mon are gone...

You either run boots spam, stall (which is surprisingly more "fun" to face this gen), braindead H-Samurott hazard stack, sun or you try to make a balance with G-Slowking. There is no room for creativity in the current metagame which is really depressing for someone like me that enjoy bringing unusual Pokemon/sets as high as I can on the ladder.
 
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peepeepoopoo722 said:
Serperior? You mean the pokemon with a 357 speed that drops STAB leaf storms that double its SpAtk?! Behind a leech seed substitute!?

No thanks keep that thing in ubers!
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Serperior? You mean that pokemon that gets walled by every dragon and steel in the tier, is weak to all the hazards, is easily pp stalled, and that's outsped by 11 different viable pokemon in OU alone?

No thanks, keep that thing in UU!
 
Anchor9 said:
Any thoughts on this hazard stack team I recently made? Probably should have made an alt because I dropped 100 Elo while playing and optimizing: https://pokepast.es/3887dc2b3dd18f6c
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I find it funny that these days any team with hammorott and ghold can be called hstack. You know, back in my day, we have to use jank like double hazards ferrothorn and defiant bisharp. But yeah, looks good besides a concerning lack of reliable checks for choice band gouging fire.
 
Just A Shroom God said:
Serperior? You mean that pokemon that gets walled by every dragon and steel in the tier, is weak to all the hazards, is easily pp stalled, and that's outsped by 11 different viable pokemon in OU alone?

No thanks, keep that thing in UU!
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Serperior? You mean that Pokemon that can cheese through its checks if it gets a few lucky paras and if it can get going is really hard to stop but can also struggle to get going and is susceptible to common mons attacks.

No thanks, keep that thing in OU.
 
I have the strat of all time. By unbanning Palafin, usage of Ogerpon-Wellspring will go through the roof. Everyone will see how broke Wellspring is, ban it, see how broken Palafin is, ban it, and then we have finally gotten rid of another Walking Wake check.
 
Rekka's Backend said:
I think we should stop trying to seriously discuss trying to drop bulls into our delicate glass store while we have 8 bulls already rampaging inside of it. Adding another bull or two isn't going to solve the existing issue that bulls are trampling us to death. :regiF:
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What you talking about? Only bulls in this store is granbull and snubbull
 
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