You’re kidding, right? RIGHT?! [Giant Indeedee watches in the corner]
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Wrong. You can absolutely split up the no action category in a number of ways. I did one of them. We could do more. And if they did have an actual suspect, there would NEVER be 3 categories like we see on the survey. Only two: Ban or don't ban. Period.
That's the level of black and white you are trying to cram this 3 category survey into. Like a square peg in a round hole, it doesn't fit. For a survey, sure, 3 categories can be ok depending on what you are trying to do. You know, as long as you don't take it completely out of context. For what YOU are specifically trying to turn it into, though, the survey wasn't designed to be. This is why I said it is "poorly designed for the point you are trying to use it for."
The fact that your first reaction to any other sort of framing was "aRE YoU sERiOuslY PRopOsInG wE GeRRymANDeR tHe sUrvEY" while still completely refusing to acknowledge the inherent biases in the current survey framing says a lot. You are so stuck in the mud on your own view that you refuse to understand how someone else may see it differently when going to vote or what different category splits might change in a vote. We are literally telling you that the survey as constructed isn't equal and your only response is to continue to double down.
Furthermore, I already told you I believe that Tera is more popular. I don't personally even think the anti-Tera side has the votes. So why are you still so stuck on trying to rub the survey in my face like I need it for my side to win or something? The survey argument is dumb is my point. It literally wouldn't make a difference. And many of the people who vote in surveys probably wouldn't make reqs anyways. It's such a nonsensical thing to get stuck on.
Get out of the us versus them gutter for two seconds and just look at it objectively. Framing matters. The current framing of the survey is not and never was meant to be a perfect splitting of groups. It was only meant to be a rough idea of very general consensus on a very complicated issue you keep trying to make extremely black and white.
As someone who has tried to make psychic terrain teams work recently, I unfortunately cannot recommend this.
Tera isn’t untouchable and I clarified this recently in a post.
Posting survey results without context to fit a narrative is touchable though: these are from multiple weeks before the Arch suspect. The metagame shifted a ton and we made it clear we were only going to do surveys every 1-2 months like they were designed for, not every 2 weeks like we had. It getting suspected and banned shows the council understood the metagame’s evolution and playerbase’s needs more than anything you’re implying.
Could be interesting, but the main thing is rillaboom, which replaces psychic terrain with grassy terrain, and with tera grass can ko boulder even if it tera's fighting. It's kinda like upper hand quaquaval, which I have used to decent success. It forces your opponent to make messy 50/50's which is better than the 100% chance you lose.
did you just seriously, unironically, compare us to nazis? and coldplay fans? don't pretend this was just an example of "some opinions are wrong", bringing those up was a conscious choice to try and associate our side with those other ideologies. you could have used any group
well enjoy having it for the rest of the gen then, because your literal only hope is getting it split differently than that. "ban tera" will never, ever be the majority opinion while this is current gen. if you can't stomach that fact, there are 8 other gens you can play
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The amount of times you have completely failed to address my actual points to turn it into the pro-Tera versus anti-Tera rhetoric is truly staggering at this point. The funny thing is you didn't even get that right. Yes, I think Tera is unhealthy for the tier. In no way would I pin all my hopes on a flipping survey, let alone an old survey. Did I not already explain multiple ways why this was dumb? And why would I run off to another gen if I haven't already done so with Tera in the tier? That makes no sense. What are you even trying to argue for at this point?
Finch literally just said posting survey results without context to fit a narrative is touchable. Do you have so little self awareness that you cannot even realize that YOU are one of those people posting survey results without context to fit a narrative? Unbelievable.
They... only did so because of the initial framing of the 25% support of a full ban from another user.
Say what you will about how YOU can choose to make it half and half in no action vs some action, but the initial claim that Buzzwole was responding to was framing the 25% in support of a full ban as somehow not the minority position, at the very least at the moment of the survey.
And I only did so because he said 3 to 1 as follow up framing. What's your point? That it's only ok when he does it?
I specifically said it was 3 groups and that both sides of the debate that tries to turn it into 2 with the third for whoever to claim were wrong. I checked my words and I really haven't been that unclear.
That the argument which started everything had nothing to do with some vs all vs no action on tera. The claim was that something need be done because over one-fourth of players felt there was a need for a full ban. This is, unquestionably, not a favorable statistic. That is, as far as I can tell, what was originally being replied to.
The claim that much closer to or just above half feel there is some action needed is both correct and not presenting things from a massively unfavorable statistic.
i was specifically providing context for someone who did post survey results without context to fit a narrative. two people, actually. in two separate layers of this fuckening argument. first someone mentioned the arch survey results being low for something that got suspected shortly afterwards and compared this to tera for some reason. i responded by providing important context, noting some important differences between archaludon and tera—namely, tera's been around for longer, so opinions are less likely to quickly change on it. then someone else barges in screeching about how 1 in 4 people support a tera ban, to which i respond that this means 3 in 4 people don't, and then people start calling me a nazi for supporting tera, which is the second time this has happened
No one said anything about full ban being "not a minority position" (closest being me pointing to the 52% pro action statistic, which has stood as the average throughout the generation) but I stated that the framing the survey used, "are you certain that a full ban on Tera is necessary for a balanced tier," does not give space for people who are on the fence to make up their minds during a suspect and shouldn't, especially after a near 50/50 split in action and no action support among all players, mean a suspect test should be a ruled out. Unlike KamenOH, I did not claim that a number below 50% was "actually the majority," contrary to Mr Buzzwole's claim. He then preceeded to claim that nobody would or could change their mind and there are no people on the fence, which is of course asinine.
My only thing on the matter of Tera is that I both feel like Tera is overbearing but the only actual restriction being considered (Tera Blast ban) doesn't seem entirely consistent with both precedent and policy, as many have both done the math to point out the proportion of mons actually using blast and contrasting it to the nature of the only real similar ban, Baton Pass, as something which benefits a passee more than the passer, unlike Blast.
Which is to say I'd vote for the Blast ban because it'd probably help the tier, even if only marginally, but I find it hard to justify on a greater level.
Which is to say I'd vote for the Blast ban because it'd probably help the tier, even if only marginally, but I find it hard to justify on a greater level.
i said opinions are very unlikely to change. i didn't say anything about people who are on the fence, but i doubt many people have played this meta for over a year and followed the discussion threads without forming an opinion on tera. not once did i say the words you're trying to put in my mouth
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On a serious note about the meta. Jesus Christ I haven’t seen a meta this bad since the cancer known as late gen 8 ou. Instead of things being too passive, it’s every single fucking mon can murder you in some way, and it devolves into hyper offense and weather spam because that’s the only 2 archetype putting enough pressure. Balance is a fucking joke because you have to check the following: roaring moon, raging bolt, kingambit, fucking Sun in general, specs kyerum, valiant, offensive great tusk, volcarona, and did I mention Sun? You guys might site that there are excellent checks that function on a multi level, like great tusk checking kingambit, offensive great tusk, and non acrobatics roaring moon, and glow king sitting on specs kyerum and valiant and volcarona, but in practice, it’s just Tera 50/50.
I think the major culprit here is the rise of the sun abusers, namely gouging fire, raging bolt, and to lesser extents, roaring moon and walking wake. It doesn’t help that all of them have 64 different sets inside of Sun, and if you guess wrong you are going to die, like horribly. Im glad that the general community concensus mirrors mine, and that some form of sun is going to get hit, albeit for the opposite reason: they work way too well on balance.
Now there’s a whole other mess of defensive utility( looking at you gambit) but that’s not for some bad player to rant on. I guess I’m just frustrated with the current state of gen9, and would like to just move on. Thank y’all for listening to my rant, and hope y’all have a wonderful day
I think the major culprit here is the rise of the sun abusers, namely gouging fire, raging bolt, and to lesser extents, roaring moon and walking wake. It doesn’t help that all of them have 64 different sets inside of Sun, and if you guess wrong you are going to die, like horribly. Im glad that the general community concensus mirrors mine, and that some form of sun is going to get hit, albeit for the opposite reason: they work way too well on balance.
Now there’s a whole other mess of defensive utility( looking at you gambit) but that’s not for some bad player to rant on. I guess I’m just frustrated with the current state of gen9, and would like to just move on. Thank y’all for listening to my rant, and hope y’all have a wonderful day
I for one don't think the meta is as bad as people have been purporting, sure there's definitely some kinks to iron out ban wise but we're definitely not in the realm of having to ban 10+ mons to have a truly balanced meta.
People saying that HO is the only viable playstyle right now are just plain wrong, we've seen a variety of playstyles shine naturally through different HO's, Every kind of Weather team (Even Sand!!!), Rillaboom BO's, Stall and different HStack superman builds, I truly think this is one of the most diverse points of the meta up to now.
It's not even like the meta is stale, we've seen incredible inovation in some few rarely used Pokemon seeing viable play, like Comfey, Volcanion, Hawlucha, Moltres, Hoopa-Unbound, Keldeo, Ursaluna and Iron Crown all come into the limelight and see success in both ladder and Tournament play.
Anyways, been having a lot of fun with the DLC2 meta, it's by far my favorite SV meta to date, would like to thank the OU Council for the great oversight/organisation this generation :)
People saying that HO is the only viable playstyle right now are just plain wrong, we've seen a variety of playstyles shine naturally through different HO's, Every kind of Weather team (Even Sand!!!), Rillaboom BO's, Stall and different HStack superman builds, I truly think this is one of the most diverse points of the meta up to now.
It's not even like the meta is stale, we've seen incredible inovation in some few rarely used Pokemon seeing viable play, like Comfey, Volcanion, Hawlucha, Moltres, Hoopa-Unbound, Keldeo, Ursaluna and Iron Crown all come into the limelight and see success in both ladder and Tournament play.
Anyways, been having a lot of fun with the DLC2 meta, it's by far my favorite SV meta to date, would like to thank the OU Council for the great oversight/organisation this generation :)
Can I point out that you are all using the general responses and that only about 47% of qualified users wanted any action on Tera and that both percentages are below the 60% threshold?
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I’m not sorry for any inconvenience. Wtf is going on with yall smh
Mod team's finished cleaning up the thread now, but we'll be keeping the thread locked until tomorrow morning (EST). I appreciate the eagerness of our thread regulars to engage with posts, but in the future, if you see some really egregious and otherwise wack shit, please just let the mod team handle it. Don't make a discussion out of it.
Click that report button, ignore said wack shit, and carry on with your day. Thanks yall
Click that report button, ignore said wack shit, and carry on with your day. Thanks yall
Something I find interesting is how Glimmora keeps adapting / changing its moves to better fit the meta as time has gone by. Made a small graph with its moves usage since Gen9 released
Spikes for instance had a lot of usage earlier on but has died down since. Energy Ball and Dazzling Gleam started low, then gained momentum and finally dropped again. Power Gem was mostly somewhere in the middle though it dropped a fair bit around August, but then came back strong after DLC 2.
Other cool moves have been Toxic, Spiky Shield, and the recent Mud Shot.
What is your favorite Lead Glimmora set?
1695 data - No decimals for simplicity sake
Spikes for instance had a lot of usage earlier on but has died down since. Energy Ball and Dazzling Gleam started low, then gained momentum and finally dropped again. Power Gem was mostly somewhere in the middle though it dropped a fair bit around August, but then came back strong after DLC 2.
Other cool moves have been Toxic, Spiky Shield, and the recent Mud Shot.
What is your favorite Lead Glimmora set?
It's pretty crazy what a "distorted" (as in, chaotic) version of a once prosperous tier really does to people. Hopefully we can move on from this and just talk about fun things in the metagame as of late. Like, me personally, I am a big fan of Dondozo + Clodsire walling everything.
So far, I've been experimenting with cores that are good into the general metagame and mons that are individually good against stuff -- like Tera Ghost + Fire Spin + Taunt Volcanion -- who isn't limited to JUST a hard stall killer -- and could actually be pretty good against the likes of Gliscor, certain Rillaboom, Weavile, and Skarmory. But whatever the case is, I'll be takin Dondozo + Clodsire to the top, because I don't like Offensive teams XD
Ya'll prolly ain't gonna listen to me since SetsuStsna just said this, but what is a core or certain pokemon set that you guys like that can stand up to the current metagame?
So far, I've been experimenting with cores that are good into the general metagame and mons that are individually good against stuff -- like Tera Ghost + Fire Spin + Taunt Volcanion -- who isn't limited to JUST a hard stall killer -- and could actually be pretty good against the likes of Gliscor, certain Rillaboom, Weavile, and Skarmory. But whatever the case is, I'll be takin Dondozo + Clodsire to the top, because I don't like Offensive teams XD
Ya'll prolly ain't gonna listen to me since SetsuStsna just said this, but what is a core or certain pokemon set that you guys like that can stand up to the current metagame?