Unpopular opinions

[QuentinQuonce]

honestly, level scaling is easier to rationalise than fixed levels even in linear pokémon games - why do i, the player character, happen to live where the weakest pokémon live? how does, say, a sinnoh trainer who lives in sunyshore begin their journey?? meanwhile, level scaling can be explained as "mons too weak for my team hide in fear, mons too strong are not threatened and don't show up". if badges make stronger mons obey, they can make them appear in the wild. etc.

There's legit an interview with Masuda where someone asks him this ["doesn't it make life quite difficult if you're a trainer starting out on your journey but you live in an area surrounded by strong Pokemon"] and it boggles my mind that he didn't respond with precisely this justification. Instead he just sort of laughed and went "yeah I guess it would be really hard for people who live in those areas, oh well"

 

[Sonikku A]

It'd be funny if they do it so if you enable Exp share, catching exp and exp candies are disabled. If it's off those are enabled

 

[Castersvarog]

Man I just want the exp share to have a toggle. We got this right a decade ago with XY and later SUMO? Just do that, then at least you could interact with a lot of the games content like raids, auto battle and even regular trainer battles without worrying about over leveling instead of taking three left turns when there’s a right turn available.

 

[Esserise]

content like raids

I agree with the overall sentiment, but raids don’t give you experience directly. Just candies, which is one of the things I really like about doing raids during the main game since it gives me a little more control over that.

 

[ant4456]

Want an actual unpopular opinion? I don't want an exp toggle.

 

[AztecCroc]

Man I just want the exp share to have a toggle. We got this right a decade ago with XY and later SUMO? Just do that, then at least you could interact with a lot of the games content like raids, auto battle and even regular trainer battles without worrying about over leveling instead of taking three left turns when there’s a right turn available.

Again, in SwSh you could fight every single trainer while using the same six Pokémon for the entire game and not be overleveled.

SV's level curve is worse because there's so much required content compared to most games but they refuse to let enemy trainers have Pokémon over level 70 during the main story for some reason.

 

[igiveuponaname]

HMs were the best tools players were given for overworld exploration and the replacements are either lamer versions of HMs at best (Ride Pager or whatever it was called in SM) or just straight up worse/non existent (SwSh/SV).

On a similar note I liked the large amount of required HMs in DPPt.

 

[Esserise]

are either lamer versions of HMs at best (Ride Pager or whatever it was called in SM)

The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?

 

[Axiemeister]

yeah now that's a truly unpopular opinion. i do think physical obstacles that could only be overcome with badges allowing your mons to do special things is better than not having anything, or having those lame checkpoints alola had, but i certainly don't miss wasting a not easily replaceable move slot on them

 

[AztecCroc]

yeah now that's a truly unpopular opinion. i do think physical obstacles that could only be overcome with badges allowing your mons to do special things is better than not having anything, or having those lame checkpoints alola had, but i certainly don't miss wasting a not easily replaceable move slot on them

I mean HMs were only a problem because most of them were crap.
Surf and, post-Physical/Special Split, Waterfall were basically the go to Water moves, and Fly was decent enough.

 

[Axiemeister]

I mean HMs were only a problem because most of them were crap.
Surf and, post-Physical/Special Split, Waterfall were basically the go to Water moves, and Fly was decent enough.

even strength was fairly usable in the games the HM shows up early enough! but the non-replaceable part really bugs me, even foe the good moves and even if i know why it's like that. it just feels like too much commitment to a move slot at a point in the game your mons are still learning new moves

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?

There's more to HMs than just the basic mechanical elements. For all their faults, it is nice to feel like you're actually working with your Pokemon to overcome obstacles in the overworld, particularly when you're in some super remote dungeon. To me, the Ride Pager is very sterile by comparison and makes the world feel smaller. Arguably, this serves the setting: you're a kid undergoing the Island Challenge and there are already guardrails everywhere to direct you, so maybe it makes sense that your travel options are these official worker Pokemon with safety harnesses that can always come to you immediately no matter where you are. I wouldn't say it's a direct upgrade, though.

Having said that, I'll never defend HMs too hard, because I really don't like it when a fun roster of mons can't learn all the HMs between them and I have to either ditch a team member permanently or continually deposit and withdraw mons depending on whether I'm in Battle Mode or Exploration Mode.

 

[igiveuponaname]

The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?

The fact that HMs are actual moves is what makes them so much more interesting imo. They aren't just "the thing you use to bypass an obstacle", they're "a move which you can actually use in battle that also serves the purpose of overworld exploration". It gives them a much more multipurpose feel which I quite like. Cobalt Empoleon pretty much expressed what I feel in their first paragraph.

And for what it's worth I do like the Ride Pager, I just think HMs were a better version of the same idea.

I understand people's frustrations with the fact that you can't easily delete them, but that's moreso an issue with the fact that the move deleter is often in the later portions of the game so you don't get the opportunity to remove them whenever you feel like until after the "you can't delete this" mentality has already seeped in. And also I personally never minded this too much? Like most HM moves are still good moves for an in-game playthrough so I don't ever feel like I'm wasting a slot most of the time (the two exceptions to this are Cut and Rock Smash, both of which are obtained very early on so it makes sense for them to be weaker. And even then Rock Smash I'd argue is the only one that's actually annoying since it sees constant mandatory use throughout the game while Cut is mostly used for optional goodies aside from the small handful of times you need to use it shortly after you receive it).

 

[Hugin]

There's a few separate things to discuss to grasp HMs: Field moves, field effects, and irreplaceable HMs.
Field effects are, in my opinion, an unambiguous good. "Interact with the world, without battling, generally using pokemon, in a way that leads to exploration, puzzles, and/or rewards." That's incredible. I don't care if it's Acro Bike, Headbutt, or Ride Pager, those are good things and with the decline of HMs the use of puzzles etc in the games has also become a lot rarer, which I dislike. They also make a natural form of roadblock that isn't clearly artificial, which the linear games sorely need.
Field moves are, IMO, also a good thing. "Teach your mons X move to accomplish effect X1 in the overworld" is a good way to encourage players to have a diverse team, while also leading to trade-offs for the player: "Do you teach Return or Strength on a mon" is a legitimate question. Strength isn't bad, so having it at all times is a useful tool, and it doesn't cost much, but it does make your Snorlax weaker than if you gave it Return. Or do you just dedicate a mon entirely to field moves and play with a dead teamslot?
HMs themselves are more of an issue. HMs being undeletable(even in games with the move deleter people still think of them as permanent) makes folks unlikely to want to risk a moveslot, and the specific moves used for HMs often sucking or having overlapping types makes it worse.

The thing is, GF just never tried to improve HMs. They changed the roster on occasion, changed how vital they were, but never actually looked at the list, looked at the games, and said "How do we make these fun and interesting?" There are ways, certainly, to make a Field Moves list for a game which has moves that aren't broken in the midgame, are usable late-game, and all accomplish something interesting in the overworld. GF did not make a game like that at any point in 6 generations, so of course when they were removed, people celebrated.

 

[Magcargo]

Psychic is a bad type, but I like how unique a lot it's moves are. Stored Power, Psychic Noise, Psyshock, Expanding Force, and Future Sight are all great moves with unique properties that I could justify running for completely different reasons, beyond the usual consistency vs power dilemna with other types. IMO the best Psychic-types are the ones that are to viably use all these moves to perform different functions. For example, Iron Crown, despite not being perfect, is one of few Pokemon that largely benefits from it's psychic typing since it can use these moves effectively on a number of sets. Stored power works on cheese agility + CM sets, Future Sight is good on Volt Switch sets, Psyshock is nice on CM sets to break past walls like Clodsire, and expanding force is cool on Psychic Terrain teams, etc. The Psychic moves that Iron Crown chooses to run is pretty pivotal in altering its functionality on a team, as it is rather limited in what its able to do otherwise. Others like Armarouge and Slowking-G are also beneficiaries of the Psychic typing.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

HMs themselves are more of an issue. HMs being undeletable(even in games with the move deleter people still think of them as permanent) makes folks unlikely to want to risk a moveslot, and the specific moves used for HMs often sucking or having overlapping types makes it worse.

In Gens 1-4 I agree that it would have been better to have HMs just be deletable (along with better measures to prevent softlocks ofc), because any move you delete or decline to learn is either lost forever or requires resources to replace, so there's still an interesting trade-off. From Gen 5 onwards, though, reusable TMs make things awkward. If you can repeatedly delete and replace HMs (and field move TMs) with TM moves, then those field moves are functionally just Key Items with extra steps to use them. When I've played fangames with freely deletable HMs and reusable TMs+free Move Relearner services, navigation becomes this tedious process of learning the field move only when you need to use it and then immediately switching back to the optimal battle moveset.

Of course, as you say, Game Freak never nailed this mechanic despite having generations to come up with something better.

 

[DrrT]

I'm not sure if this is truly unpopular but I have mostly seen the opppsite so here it goes: Zacian and Zamazenta are cool designs (like aesthetically, not in competitive obviously). I'm not objective because legendary wolves were one of the two biggest wanted Pokemon concepts of child me, but still.

I initally thought Zacian carrying a literal sword on its mouth was too ridiculous but the design grew a lot on me after seeing it in-game (there were surely more subtle ways to handle the concept tho). The game even has the two wolves literally flying. Again it's ridiculous but so unapologetic about it I can't help but like it. They also have some incredibly good music themes.

edit: a probably more unpopular one, I like Origin Palkia a lot more than the normal one. I just don't like it's called Origin form to beging with.

 

[Axiemeister]

i quite agree with many of the points made about HMs being better than the ride pager and its variants, but i do think the moves being undeletable were already a hard sell in the early gens, let alone now.

maybe field moves should be exactly that - moves for the field, separate from your 4 battle moves, but that you still need to teach to one of your mons and can't be removed. maybe a limit of 1 or 2 field moves per mon? i am just spitballing here

 

[igiveuponaname]

maybe field moves should be exactly that - moves for the field, separate from your 4 battle moves, but that you still need to teach to one of your mons and can't be removed. maybe a limit of 1 or 2 field moves per mon? i am just spitballing here

This is more or less how field moves work in the Monster Hunter Stories games and it works well there most of the time so I wouldn't be opposed to this as a replacement for HMs.

 

[Esserise]

Fly was decent enough.

Fly is decently usable in battle, but it has its own issue in that it basically forces you to have a Flying-type (or the occasional non-Flying-type that does learn it) on your team in order to make use of fast-travel… either that, or you have to pull something that can learn it out of your PC every time you want to fly somewhere, which isn’t very, well… fast.

There's more to HMs than just the basic mechanical elements. For all their faults, it is nice to feel like you're actually working with your Pokemon to overcome obstacles in the overworld, particularly when you're in some super remote dungeon.

People say this a lot, and fair enough to those who feel that way, but it’s never really resonated with me. I like puzzle-solving, but being obligated to teach a certain move that my Pokémon is going to be stuck with for the duration of the dungeon in order to solve the puzzle doesn’t give me a satisfying feeling of cooperation; it just feels inconvenient.

I would say I get a perfectly sufficient sense of bonding with my own Pokémon by using them in battle as I go through the dungeon. They’re still essential to the player’s progress in that regard; it’s not as if they’re just languishing away in your pocket while you’re carried through the cave or across the ocean by a rental.

On top of that, part of the reason why I don’t feel that sense of connection is also because the presentation with HMs has always been pretty lacking — ironically, it wasn’t until the Ride Pager that you actually saw the specific Pokémon performing the task. Like, when you use Strength, you get a quick glance at your Pokémon’s sprite, but then it’s you who’s kicking the boulder around. With Machamp Shove, you see the Machamp helping you and putting in the work. With Surf and Fly, it’s just a generic sprite. Nothing to differentiate from a random Lapras or bird Pokémon that could have just been sent to you via something like the Pager. Cut, Rock Smash, Defog, etc.? Just that quick glance at the sprite, then the HM action is applied. No real action on the part of your Pokémon.

Plus… I think the existence and commonality of HM slaves says something about how strong of a bond players typically build with their Pokémon on the basis of HMs. Are they really feeling closer to that random Lv5 Zigzagoon that they’re just dragging around in order to get through a cave and putting no other investment into? Do they feel like that’s a satisfying way to solve puzzles in coordination with their Pokémon?

The fact that HMs are actual moves is what makes them so much more interesting imo. They aren't just "the thing you use to bypass an obstacle", they're "a move which you can actually use in battle that also serves the purpose of overworld exploration". It gives them a much more multipurpose feel

I think Hugin covered my thoughts on this fairly comprehensively. I think moves having field effects is cool and a nice way to add dimension to certain moves, but when those kinds of moves are required for progression, it turns into a headache.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

On top of that, part of the reason why I don’t feel that sense of connection is also because the presentation with HMs has always been pretty lacking — ironically, it wasn’t until the Ride Pager that you actually saw the specific Pokémon performing the task. Like, when you use Strength, you get a quick glance at your Pokémon’s sprite, but then it’s you who’s kicking the boulder around. With Machamp Shove, you see the Machamp helping you and putting in the work. With Surf and Fly, it’s just a generic sprite. Nothing to differentiate from a random Lapras or bird Pokémon that could have just been sent to you via something like the Pager. Cut, Rock Smash, Defog, etc.? Just that quick glance at the sprite, then the HM action is applied. No real action on the part of your Pokémon.

Yeah that's fair; it's definitely a little impersonal. I imagine having more unique sprites would've meant drastically reducing the number of Pokemon that could learn these HMs (which would make them feel even worse as an RPG element) and, in the case of Strength, limiting the design space for puzzles because of the extra space taken up by a second sprite.

Speaking of which, I think it's interesting to name Machamp Shove specifically after mentioning your enjoyment of puzzles earlier in the post, because I think Machamp Shove was a terrible sendoff to boulder puzzles. The only ones I can remember from SMUSUM are super boring, and part of the reason why is because they have to accommodate the size and movement of the Machamp sprite. It was a massive letdown for me after Gen 6 and especially Gen 5 had some great Strength puzzles despite changing their basic mechanics significantly from earlier games.

Are they really feeling closer to that random Lv5 Zigzagoon that they’re just dragging around in order to get through a cave and putting no other investment into? Do they feel like that’s a satisfying way to solve puzzles in coordination with their Pokémon?

You might think I'm just being contrary, but my answer to these questions is unironically 'yes'

 

[Hugin]

Plus… I think the existence and commonality of HM slaves says something about how strong of a bond players typically build with their Pokémon on the basis of HMs. Are they really feeling closer to that random Lv5 Zigzagoon that they’re just dragging around in order to get through a cave and putting no other investment into? Do they feel like that’s a satisfying way to solve puzzles in coordination with their Pokémon?

Zigzagoon is an interesting reference point. Because in RSE, the optimal HM user until the latter water routes is Linoone. Strength, Rock Smash, Cut, Thief, Pickup(maybe Surf). And because it needs to be lvl 20 for Strength, you should catch a Zigzagoon early and actually use it for route-clearing purposes until it evolves, and probably keep using it for a while after that(In E, Pickup gets better with levelup, Thief is extremely useful against bosses, and in the midgame base-80 STAB and 100 speed is nothing to sneeze at). So the HM user you're taking through Victory Road may well be a lvl 32 Linoone that carried you against Wattson and stole Flannery's White Herb. And sure he's fallen off, can't battle anymore, but he's still fulfilling a key team function. That's an excellent story.

It's just that in most games, the end result is far less interesting.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

HMs are kind of nice, until you remember that you hardly ever actually want them on your mons.

BDSP was the closest to a solution in my book, but I understand where the "Your Pokémon helping you" crowd comes from.

Also, Surf and Waterfall being the de facto reliable Water moves caused severe ripple effects ( ) on the enemy trainers since that used to mean pretty much no Water-types learned them by level-up.

The field effects are essential though. Pokémon's map designs weren't exactly great to begin with, but it really went downhill in the later games without physical obstacles to traverse.

 

[CPU]

BDSP's HM implementation felt so bad to me and I'm not entirely sure why.

Letting you use field moves after a certain point in the game is standard HM implementation, so that was fine. I think it's partially that they felt just like a waste of time with the animation of a random Bibarel popping up every time you needed to break a rock. Game, I don't know or care about this Pokémon, you don't need to show it to me. Maybe it's just because it's a change that only existed to correct a complaint about the original game (or to make it feel more in line with how Gen 7 handled HMs, though I didn't mind Gen 7).

I guess I also felt that BDSP's overworld just felt really bad in general with how it allowed full movement across the map but was still designed with the originals' grid design as a base. Maybe it compounded with that.

 

[Hugin]

Letting you use field moves after a certain point in the game is standard HM implementation, so that was fine. I think it's partially that they felt just like a waste of time with the animation of a random Bibarel popping up every time you needed to break a rock. Game, I don't know or care about this Pokémon, you don't need to show it to me.

So, Rock Smash rocks exist in the game for 2 reasons. They're not puzzles or anything else, Rock Smash is just a check for "Have you progressed far enough in the game to get past this point" and "Have you devoted 1/24 moveslots to Rock Smash"*. And the latter effect is designed to make your team worse. You're exploring with a bit of a handicap, which especially in deep dungeons where you could theoretically run low on HP/PP/items/etc, matters a lot.

BDSP doesn't do that. Which, fine, that's a choice. But that means that MOST of the smashable rocks in the original game are now useless. If you're in an area past when Rock Smash unlocks, you clearly have the move, so why are they making you check again? With the exception of literally inside Oreburgh Gate, every single Rock Smash rock in BDSP serves no purpose.

*Which is my least-favorite field move effect. Cut, Whirlpool, Rock Smash, all are basically the same field effect and are all terrible.