Implemented WCOP Format (tiers)

[Eoward]

Hi, I’d like to share some thoughts I read or think it’ll be relevant :

- First of all, I’d like to point out the fact that many people that posted here wants some changes but it doesn’t represent the whole playerbase at all, from what I’ve read, US people are almost the only ones in favor of adding lower tiers, notably because they won’t find ANY issues finding competent players that won’t get farmed by top players (because US also have the top players), and this applies to old gens like ORAS OU. What’s more, 11/14 TDs are US too, I don’t have anything against them of course, but I don’t think they can objectively realize how hard it is for minor countries to find competent players in lesser played tiers. And some players are just arguing for changes because they just don’t like the tier, this is clearly a tiering issue and not a format one. You don’t have to sign up for every trophy tournament if you don’t like the tier, I’m pretty sure if any other tier was current gen, nobody would have supported a format change.

- If people really want to change the format, as Soulwind said, nobody supported the addition of SS OU, and personally, I don’t find the current format of all CG OU particularly boring, if players are re using, even if it can be quite boring on paper, many teams tried to find counter plays to these teams, like the German 6 in last wcop, many countries or at least the best ones, tried to innovate to make the German 6 or others teams less good, and I don’t find this boring, this just develop the meta. Although, even if I saw some supports in favor of adding DOU to grant more variety in the tour, and I’m not against it at all, do you guys really think every 25+ teams competiting in WCoP will find a competent player ? I just think this will enhance a poor level quality, and the tournament will be even more boring if some players are just eating up others.

- I searched a bit about the old WCoP format, it was all gens OU but we moved to full CG OU because we, as a community, wanted a more stable format, since always changing the WCoP format would just lower its prestige.

- Finally, why tf are there so many low tiers when smogon‘s main tier is OU, I mean, it just forces the format to be 10 slots > 8 and as other people already mentioned it, adding 2 extra slots just fuck up too many teams like Belgium or Bangladesh (not even talking about the tiers but only the slots), and I could easily mention many more but too lazy for that and will wait for biased players to argue with this. I have many others arguments that people already mentioned as to why we shouldn’t change the current format.

PS: I also would like to point out that TDs already stated some format changes after only 4 days since this thread was posted. We should definitely wait more since WCoP starts in 3 months.

Thanks for this. Same feeling. I hope it will be considered before changing the format (as all the other posts).

The choice seems so obvious to me between "not changing a format that works" and "changing a format to amuse a few guys who like it but bury entire teams".
It becomes a conflict of interest, where people are in favour of introducing lower tiers when they have players available.

 

[Malekith]

Good to see people are finally realizing full CG OU is terrible and bad to see the suggested solution is adding SS or DOU.

I personally think what makes this tournament "weird" is the Round 1 format. For me, a player who has played this tournament a lot of years the problem is that Round 1 of this tournament is harder than playoffs (and super random), it makes no sense in a competitive scenario, and if we have changed the format of almost all the tournaments of the site, why not changing that stupid wild format.

When I managed the competitive spanish forum, we also had 3 official team tours, and one of them (the most popular one) had the following format:

X CG OU slots.
2 slots chosen by team A
2 slots chosen by team B

As crazy as you could think this is, is so funny and allows every team to have the edge in 2 slots where they are strong at, and CG OU still has the weight in the match (it could be 4 CG OU or 6 CG OU).

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

Seeds would also be a thing when making the groups, and the seeds would be determined by the place the team ended last season.

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

I know this would be a big change to the tournament, but it allows every team to be competitive (4/6 CG slots + 2 chosen by what beneficts you) and the most important thing: Every matchup would be unique and thats so fresh to spectate.

Take this post with an open mind and I promise you world cup will be the best team tournament in the site again.

PS: The only thing to be discussed is if a team has to choose 1 old gen + 1 low tier (in his 2 slots) or it could choose 2 old gens/2 low tiers.

Peace.

 

[Laurel]

I'd like to put forth some arguments for VGC to be considered for this tournament over Doubles OU.

I understand that DOU is Smogon's flagship doubles format but it already has so much representation on Smogon with OSDT/DPL/Doubles World Cup and many other team tournaments with a Smogon Doubles slot. However the VGC section on Smogon does not attract many high caliber players due to there being no incentive in playing them. However, there is one thing that motivates VGC players to join Smogon tournaments and that is custom avatars. There is only one tournament on Smogon which attracts high level VGC players and that is the VGCPLs which offer custom avatars ( now known as NPA). As someone who managed in nearly all VGC PLs, the average player level is extremely high due to interest in custom avatars. In the ongoing NPA which recently moved to Smogon to bridge the gap between the VGC community and the Smogon community, you have multiple regional and international champions playing alongside some of Smogon's very best singles players (for example mind gaming and Justin Tang together on a team/bruno and marcofiero together on a team).

As for arguments against DOU, I think a majority of them can just be solved with VGC.

1. VGC Players will not be as invested due to them being more engaged with the IRL circuit.

This is true to an extent but VGC does not require building specific teams week to week like DOU, you will still receive very high quality of games as in VGC team tours the norm is to just use premade teams or teams the VGC players are testing for events anyway. VGC Players LOVE custom avatars as there is very little opportunity to gain them apart from NPA or winning a VGCPL so you will have plenty of high quality players wanting to play. Last VGCPL in 2023, players like Eric Rios, Alex Gomez , Jiseok Lee, Justin Tang signed up just for a chance to get an avatar through winning the tournament, it wasn't even a tournament where everyone who got drafted received an avatar. Aside from that, you still have many VGC players participating in various team tournaments with majority singles slots (Nails, Spurrific, zee, etc).

2. Smaller teams will not be able to find Doubles OU players.

A lot of the arguments against this were 'find a VGC player and put them in there'. At that point, why not just make the slot VGC anyway instead of benefitting bigger teams which already have prominent DOU players. Every country has a competent VGC player which levels the playing field a bit more. Here is a link to the VGC World Cup which had 60 countries participating https://worldcupvgc.com/. I noticed Team Belgium expressing difficulty finding doubles players, in VGC Belgium already has multiple players qualified for this year's World Championships. Many other smaller countries will also have no trouble finding good VGC players.

3. Doubles players will be isolated in the team discord.

As someone who played doubles in team tours with majority singles slots, I really don't think this is an issue at all. Doubles players do not expect singles players to help them with their teams and honestly whenever I joined those tournaments, I found it really interesting to see how singles players prepped and the games were really fun to watch as well. This argument in my opinion does not matter for DOU or VGC, any doubles player will just prep with their friend group anyway and enjoy the team experience.

I would personally love to see VGC integrated more into Smogon as it is the biggest format on Showdown after Random Battles and OU. NPA was a great start and I really believe this World Cup could be the next best way to do that. It would really be beneficial for both communities especially since more and more singles players are gaining interest in VGC as well.

I'm going to echo what has previously been said in the SPL thread (as DOU / VGC was considered). VGC players will never bring their very best team to Smogon Tournaments because IRL tournaments will always take precedence. IRL tournaments are more prestigious, more money, more time consuming. If you're testing a VGC team and you realize it's amazing, you're not bringing it to World Cup, you're saving it for your next regional.

tl;dr DOU > VGC

 

[Finchinator]

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

Wouldn't this make actually fielding a roster infinitely harder (especially for smaller regions, who are the big focus of this conversation to begin with)?

Suddenly they have to potentially account for so many tiers and this can be exploited in picking, too.

It is a cool premise and I would enjoy this firsthand because it incorporates such a wide variety of options, but I feel it amplifies a lot of the issues people cited with potential formats or potential tiers being included.

 

[Malekith]

Not really, teams would have 4/6 CG OU slots, which is the spirit of the tour and we are all "equal" there, then you have 2 tiers where you feel you are stronger than the other team, and 2 chosen by the foe where you are supposed to be weaker, but there is where team tactics join and you decide who you send, your best players? the ones who are motivated to learn the tier? More players will take part of the tour since the chosen tiers are always different depending on who you face.

Take on mind that forcing a team to play SS or DOU makes teams without SS or DOU players unable to compete, but if they can choose 2 slots it is another story, and then the challenging part of learning super-fast the 2 tiers chosen by the foe, and winning there is exciting.

Also, the tiers that are eligible are only the official metagames, is not like you can choose ADV NU or VGC 2020, resources here are infinite and you can learn a tier for just a game, which is also pretty fun.

 

[RoiDadadou]

Good to see people are finally realizing full CG OU is terrible and bad to see the suggested solution is adding SS or DOU.

I personally think what makes this tournament "weird" is the Round 1 format. For me, a player who has played this tournament a lot of years the problem is that Round 1 of this tournament is harder than playoffs (and super random), it makes no sense in a competitive scenario, and if we have changed the format of almost all the tournaments of the site, why not changing that stupid wild format.

When I managed the competitive spanish forum, we also had 3 official team tours, and one of them (the most popular one) had the following format:

X CG OU slots.
2 slots chosen by team A
2 slots chosen by team B

As crazy as you could think this is, is so funny and allows every team to have the edge in 2 slots where they are strong at, and CG OU still has the weight in the match (it could be 4 CG OU or 6 CG OU).

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

Seeds would also be a thing when making the groups, and the seeds would be determined by the place the team ended last season.

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

I know this would be a big change to the tournament, but it allows every team to be competitive (4/6 CG slots + 2 chosen by what beneficts you) and the most important thing: Every matchup would be unique and thats so fresh to spectate.

Take this post with an open mind and I promise you world cup will be the best team tournament in the site again.

PS: The only thing to be discussed is if a team has to choose 1 old gen + 1 low tier (in his 2 slots) or it could choose 2 old gens/2 low tiers.

Peace.

If we go 6 CG OU + 2 picks for team 1 + 2 picks team 2, resulting in 10 slots with 6 being main format, then I'm down, if and only if, SV OU is also a tier you can pick as one of your choices.

If people don't want to play it more, they won't slot it, if they do want to play it, then they can. And that way, smaller teams can pick SV OU as their two picks, as a strategy to have only two adaptative players during the tournament, making it way less difficult to find said players.

 

[Cicada]

Absolutely, I mean, OSDT only has around 340 players this week, it's gonna be exceedingly hard for most teams to find at least one or two currently active players from their regions that can play DOU.


Yes, it's going to be a daunting task to find a player that can function within a team or to find someone that can direct you to a player that can function within a team. The sample size of team tours is just too small, what else can you expect from Smogon that includes doubles players only within SCL, DPL (90 players), DWCOP (160 players), PTPL, Teamballo, NDPL, Doubles Derby, NDFL, HGPL, 2v2 teamtours, VGC Classics and VGC Premier League, unless there are other tours I'm forgetting about. It's certainly above what a mon player lazy at his core could ever do.


The purpose of the tournament is to be inclusive and give chances to players across all nationalities and playerbases.

I know that you're peeved to see someone with another opinion than yours but can you drop the sarcastic tone and actually read what i said?
It seems you clearly didn't (tried to?) get my point nor tried to put yourself in the perspective I tried to chalk up, or is it that you're just stubborn.
Taking part in the debate should be done with an open mind, not with a blatant bias and if you can't help being abrasive when people bring arguments with a neutral tone to the table then that's sad.

I'll just clarify that the "lazy at his core" part wasn't targetting DOU players at all, and as I said I think the tier and the players deserve more recognition and i wouldn't mind to see included at some point, but we shouldn't half-ass things by rushing things where taking our time would ease most of the complaints that have been made.

As you said, the purpose of the tournament is to be inclusive, and for that end it would be optimal to give enough time for nations to adapt.
Again, planning a lineup for WCOP is a whole process and my point is that it's better to take time to get to know the DOU community better to know more about people / about what's going on in the tier as managers / have more players immerse themselves in it (depending on the team's needs).

I'll stress it again, it's important for us managers to know the players as persons (and ofc know what's going on ingame) so we don't get bad surprises if we just have to count on word of mouth or half-ass our pick to fill a spot. I'm talking by experience here.

In my opinion, a full year after the possibility of DOU being included has been out in the open (so next WCOP) would be a good amount of time in case some players are interested to get immersed in it. If we wanna do it, we should do it right so the transition goes as smoothly as it can.

 

[Drifting]

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

This is a little bit beyond the purview of the thread, so I apologise in advance, but this has had me thinking again about a potential format change that I've always thought would make the tour not only more fun but more like an actual World Cup; the implementation of a groups system.

The idea I had would look a little something like this, 4 groups of 5. This would expand the main event to 20 teams, which tbh is something people have been asking for for a while. As a form of seeding you would put the top 4 from the previous edition of world cup in each group to avoid the best teams eliminating each other in "death groups". This year it would look like this:

From there, we could do a live-streamed live draw of the main event teams constituting slots #2-4 in each group. It would be a bit messy this year because last year we only had 16 teams, so maybe transitioning to this system we would have to waive the relegations from last year or something, that's for others to decide. This would look something like this:

Finally, the last slot of each group would be decided by the top 4 of the qualifying round, which I think should be kept the same, the current pools system which we already use. I don't know if anyone reading this follows the FGC, but the recent Capcom Cup Last Chance Qualifier was an insanely fun tournament to watch, and LCQ's in general are straight up just hype. Perhaps the top 4 qualifying teams could pick the group they want to enter in order from first place to last place. If, for example, China, Africa, Greece and Mexico won we would be left with this:

Finally, the group stage begins, with each team playing each other in a regular bo10 like in SPL or SCL, with a Win being 2 points, a tie being 1 point and a loss being 0 points. From here, we can have the top 2 teams (with ties being broken by either head to head or game differential I'll let more qualified people decide what's better) from each group move onto a Top 8 Bracket, with Group A's #1 fighting Group C's #2 in round 1, vice versa, and the same for B and D, or whatever configuration is best. The bottom team in each group would be relegated and have to compete in the qualifying round next year. Assuming the standings were as displayed it would look like this:

I think a tournament like this would be more organised, more exciting with compelling rivalries and upsets, and lets each player play more than 3 games without the rush of having to get all your stuff done at once. There's probably more benefits I can't think of rn but I'm in a rush to finish this post and go to work, but I know that I would personally be very excited to play this format, so I'm posting it here to see what other people think about the potential group system.

 

[RoiDadadou]

Wouldn't this make actually fielding a roster infinitely harder (especially for smaller regions, who are the big focus of this conversation to begin with)?

Suddenly they have to potentially account for so many tiers and this can be exploited in picking, too.

It is a cool premise and I would enjoy this firsthand because it incorporates such a wide variety of options, but I feel it amplifies a lot of the issues people cited with potential formats or potential tiers being included.

You only need two flexible/sacrifice slots as opposed to 3-6, think that's for the better for smaller teams.

 

[Finchinator]

You only need two flexible/sacrifice slots as opposed to 3-6, think that's for the better for smaller teams.

But those two need to cover 15 possible tiers including doubles, old generations, and lower tiers by that same logic. You firsthand admit it is hard for your region to cover many formats, so I fail to see how this would suddenly prove to be ok.

 

[RoiDadadou]

But those two need to cover 15 possible tiers including doubles, old generations, and lower tiers by that same logic. You firsthand admit it is hard for your region to cover many formats, so I fail to see how this would suddenly prove to be ok.

Because be it Ubers/UU/DOU we're anyway going to have to sacrifice a player that knows nothing about it, or have to find an incredible player capable of adapting very quickly ('we' as in, smaller teams). So only having to do so for 2 slots in place of 3 to 6 depending of the team, is indeed easier, and allows to play most games in CG OU if needed, since those are easier slots to find. + don't need to invest adaptative players in both OG (where they're usually better than the rest of the LU) and LT.

 

[Laurel]

I know that you're peeved to see someone with another opinion than yours but can you drop the sarcastic tone and actually read what i said?
It seems you clearly didn't (tried to?) get my point nor tried to put yourself in the perspective I tried to chalk up, or is it that you're just stubborn.
Taking part in the debate should be done with an open mind, not with a blatant bias and if you can't help being abrasive when people bring arguments with a neutral tone to the table then that's sad.

I'll just clarify that the "lazy at his core" part wasn't targetting DOU players at all, and as I said I think the tier and the players deserve more recognition and i wouldn't mind to see included at some point, but we shouldn't half-ass things by rushing things where taking our time would ease most of the complaints that have been made.

As you said, the purpose of the tournament is to be inclusive, and for that end it would be optimal to give enough time for nations to adapt.
Again, planning a lineup for WCOP is a whole process and my point is that it's better to take time to get to know the DOU community better to know more about people / about what's going on in the tier as managers / have more players immerse themselves in it (depending on the team's needs).

I'll stress it again, it's important for us managers to know the players as persons (and ofc know what's going on ingame) so we don't get bad surprises if we just have to count on word of mouth or half-ass our pick to fill a spot. I'm talking by experience here.

In my opinion, a full year after the possibility of DOU being included has been out in the open (so next WCOP) would be a good amount of time in case some players are interested to get immersed in it. If we wanna do it, we should do it right so the transition goes as smoothly as it can.

This isn’t meant to be insulting and I’m not disagreeing with anything here as your post kind of shows you don’t know your DOU community… considering Ratpacker is top 3 French DOU. From rat’s perspective I can see why they’d be triggered.

3 months is more than enough time to field a capable team for all slots. SPL managers have what 2-3 weeks before draft? I just totally disagree with the idea of pushing this off a year.

If we’re going to include lower tiers, DOU should be the first choice and not the last IMO. Since it’s also pseudo-OU at it’s core..

 

[feen]

This isn’t meant to be insulting and I’m not disagreeing with anything here as your post kind of shows you don’t know your DOU community… considering Ratpacker is top 3 French DOU. From rat’s perspective I can see why they’d be triggered.

3 months is more than enough time to field a capable team for all slots. SPL managers have what 2-3 weeks before draft? I just totally disagree with the idea of pushing this off a year.

If we’re going to include lower tiers, DOU should be the first choice and not the last IMO. Since it’s also pseudo-OU at it’s core..

Maybe I’m not a Smogon God but calling DOU a pseudo-OU when singles and doubles are fundamentally different is beyond me. I dont see posts actually addressing issues that a lot of the teams with a limited playerbase is highlighting. And no saying “if you cant fill up x tier slot then dont make a team” is the most backdated argument I’ve heard, maybe focus on making the tiers inclusive to everyone participating instead?

Majority of the posts are “DOU community is amazing it’d be great to have them in WCoP”, and while I understand that, can you confidently say that if your team does not have a dedicated DOU veteran? Moreover posts like “Two months are a long time pick up the tier and learn and not be a lazy bum” is also a ridiculous statement to make. Sure, one can easily pick up DOU if they’re competent at singles but to be able to play at a high level in two months is an absolute fucking monumental task.

Malekith’s format, while it sounds really fun, brings a lot of uncertainty into the tournament in terms of preparation, as well as introduces “bad faith” strategies, for example- picking 2x DOU vs a team without any good DOU players. Yes good teams will be good no matter what but this will make prepping very uncertain and will hinder the competitive integrity of a tournament like WCoP.

I also would prefer a group-like system instead of the pools format, because that will not only be a more standard format for WCs in sports (Real Football), but it will also potentially allow for more teams to be included in the world cup and rather go through a long and rather stupid qualifier.

 

[Laurel]

Maybe I’m not a Smogon God but calling DOU a pseudo-OU when singles and doubles are fundamentally different is beyond me. I dont see posts actually addressing issues that a lot of the teams with a limited playerbase is highlighting. And no saying “if you cant fill up x tier slot then dont make a team” is the most backdated argument I’ve heard, maybe focus on making the tiers inclusive to everyone participating instead?

Majority of the posts are “DOU community is amazing it’d be great to have them in WCoP”, and while I understand that, can you confidently say that if your team does not have a dedicated DOU veteran? Moreover posts like “Two months are a long time pick up the tier and learn and not be a lazy bum” is also a ridiculous statement to make. Sure, one can easily pick up DOU if they’re competent at singles but to be able to play at a high level in two months is an absolute fucking monumental task.

Malekith’s format, while it sounds really fun, brings a lot of uncertainty into the tournament in terms of preparation, as well as introduces “bad faith” strategies, for example- picking 2x DOU vs a team without any good DOU players. Yes good teams will be good no matter what but this will make prepping very uncertain and will hinder the competitive integrity of a tournament like WCoP.

I also would prefer a group-like system instead of the pools format, because that will not only be a more standard format for WCs in sports (Real Football), but it will also potentially allow for more teams to be included in the world cup and rather go through a long and rather stupid qualifier.

(1) I didn't say that so not sure where you got that from
(2) I havn't participated in World Cup in something like 5 years so my statement is as an unbiased spectator
(3) Mind Gaming has never played DPP and is currently 3-2 in SPL? Bruno would have told you DPP was his worst tier and went like 9-2 last year. Michael made worlds finals in his first year playing VCC. Probably not the best examples since those players are incredible but you get the idea... If you put your mind to something 2 months is more than enough time.

I really think you're underestimating people's ability to learn a tier...

 

[Robbie35646]

I'd like to put forth some arguments for VGC to be considered for this tournament over Doubles OU.

I understand that DOU is Smogon's flagship doubles format but it already has so much representation on Smogon with OSDT/DPL/Doubles World Cup and many other team tournaments with a Smogon Doubles slot. However the VGC section on Smogon does not attract many high caliber players due to there being no incentive in playing them. However, there is one thing that motivates VGC players to join Smogon tournaments and that is custom avatars. There is only one tournament on Smogon which attracts high level VGC players and that is the VGCPLs which offer custom avatars ( now known as NPA). As someone who managed in nearly all VGC PLs, the average player level is extremely high due to interest in custom avatars. In the ongoing NPA which recently moved to Smogon to bridge the gap between the VGC community and the Smogon community, you have multiple regional and international champions playing alongside some of Smogon's very best singles players (for example mind gaming and Justin Tang together on a team/bruno and marcofiero together on a team).

As for arguments against DOU, I think a majority of them can just be solved with VGC.

1. VGC Players will not be as invested due to them being more engaged with the IRL circuit.

This is true to an extent but VGC does not require building specific teams week to week like DOU, you will still receive very high quality of games as in VGC team tours the norm is to just use premade teams or teams the VGC players are testing for events anyway. VGC Players LOVE custom avatars as there is very little opportunity to gain them apart from NPA or winning a VGCPL so you will have plenty of high quality players wanting to play. Last VGCPL in 2023, players like Eric Rios, Alex Gomez , Jiseok Lee, Justin Tang signed up just for a chance to get an avatar through winning the tournament, it wasn't even a tournament where everyone who got drafted received an avatar. Aside from that, you still have many VGC players participating in various team tournaments with majority singles slots (Nails, Spurrific, zee, etc).

2. Smaller teams will not be able to find Doubles OU players.

A lot of the arguments against this were 'find a VGC player and put them in there'. At that point, why not just make the slot VGC anyway instead of benefitting bigger teams which already have prominent DOU players. Every country has a competent VGC player which levels the playing field a bit more. Here is a link to the VGC World Cup which had 60 countries participating https://worldcupvgc.com/. I noticed Team Belgium expressing difficulty finding doubles players, in VGC Belgium already has multiple players qualified for this year's World Championships. Many other smaller countries will also have no trouble finding good VGC players.

3. Doubles players will be isolated in the team discord.

As someone who played doubles in team tours with majority singles slots, I really don't think this is an issue at all. Doubles players do not expect singles players to help them with their teams and honestly whenever I joined those tournaments, I found it really interesting to see how singles players prepped and the games were really fun to watch as well. This argument in my opinion does not matter for DOU or VGC, any doubles player will just prep with their friend group anyway and enjoy the team experience.

I would personally love to see VGC integrated more into Smogon as it is the biggest format on Showdown after Random Battles and OU. NPA was a great start and I really believe this World Cup could be the next best way to do that. It would really be beneficial for both communities especially since more and more singles players are gaining interest in VGC as well.

From a VGC perspective I dont really see how this would be beneficial for either community honestly, I think 99% of the good VGC players that play in VGC World Cup to grow their local community won't care to make connections on Smogon, + if VGC players want to get into Singles like Singles players got into VGC through NPA, wouldn't they just sign up for a Singles team tour?

Ultimately the stakes in something like this would be significantly lower for a VGC player, they might sign up for the CA like you said, but i only really see 3 options here:

1. Good players sign up for the CA, then lose interest quite fast and problaby not communicate with the rest of the team or prepare for their match.

2. The quality of the players just wont be nearly close enough to top VGC gameplay to represent the community and justify a slot.

3. Players that would rather play a smogon format end up having to play the VGC slot.

The VGC players that are interested in this play DOU anyway and problaby prefer being able to also play that at a high level, when high-level VGC competitions are incredibly frequent, there are gonna be a handful of VGC mains interested of course but i'd expect the amount of players only interested in DOU to be higher tbh.

I dont think we should bring VGC into Smogon tournaments more, but we should grow SmogonVGC to a bigger VGC Community as its own thing (VGC mostly runs on Twitter atm which is quite scuffed for obvious reasons), this way it would be easier for Smogon players to get into VGC too and actually be beneficial for both communities.

 

[Ferenia]

This is a little bit beyond the purview of the thread, so I apologise in advance, but this has had me thinking again about a potential format change that I've always thought would make the tour not only more fun but more like an actual World Cup; the implementation of a groups system.

View attachment 608835

The idea I had would look a little something like this, 4 groups of 5. This would expand the main event to 20 teams, which tbh is something people have been asking for for a while. As a form of seeding you would put the top 4 from the previous edition of world cup in each group to avoid the best teams eliminating each other in "death groups". This year it would look like this:

View attachment 608844

From there, we could do a live-streamed live draw of the main event teams constituting slots #2-4 in each group. It would be a bit messy this year because last year we only had 16 teams, so maybe transitioning to this system we would have to waive the relegations from last year or something, that's for others to decide. This would look something like this:

View attachment 608843

Finally, the last slot of each group would be decided by the top 4 of the qualifying round, which I think should be kept the same, the current pools system which we already use. I don't know if anyone reading this follows the FGC, but the recent Capcom Cup Last Chance Qualifier was an insanely fun tournament to watch, and LCQ's in general are straight up just hype. Perhaps the top 4 qualifying teams could pick the group they want to enter in order from first place to last place. If, for example, China, Africa, Greece and Mexico won we would be left with this:

View attachment 608842

Finally, the group stage begins, with each team playing each other in a regular bo10 like in SPL or SCL, with a Win being 2 points, a tie being 1 point and a loss being 0 points. From here, we can have the top 2 teams (with ties being broken by either head to head or game differential I'll let more qualified people decide what's better) from each group move onto a Top 8 Bracket, with Group A's #1 fighting Group C's #2 in round 1, vice versa, and the same for B and D, or whatever configuration is best. The bottom team in each group would be relegated and have to compete in the qualifying round next year. Assuming the standings were as displayed it would look like this:

View attachment 608845


I think a tournament like this would be more organised, more exciting with compelling rivalries and upsets, and lets each player play more than 3 games without the rush of having to get all your stuff done at once. There's probably more benefits I can't think of rn but I'm in a rush to finish this post and go to work, but I know that I would personally be very excited to play this format, so I'm posting it here to see what other people think about the potential group system.

I would just like to clarify that the idea of drifting looks great and much more attractive than the current wcop format, giving all teams the same possibilities from the start.

But I understand that such a big change is probably difficult to carry out at the moment, which is why I would like to touch on the topic once again and suggest an increase in places on the main stage, all this taking into account that in qualys There are quite strong teams such as: Canada, Chile, China, LA, Brazil, Greece, Asia and the relegated Bangladesh. All of these previously mentioned teams have a story, each of which adds validity to my point.

1. Argentina: in the past they were one step away from reaching the main event, which could not be because they faced the champions ( 2 times ) of those years twice in round 2 of qualys.

2. Chile who made a great attempt to reach the main stage in their first time participating, this perhaps did not happen due to internal problems in the team at that time, but there is no doubt that they are strong.

3. Bangladesh: they worked hard for years and managed to do it, they reached the main stage and were on the verge of staying if it weren't for the difference of one victory and one loss, fighting for relegation against the jerk (NE).

4. Canada, which only less than two years ago played the final against France. They are currently in relegation but we are all clear that they are a relatively strong team.

5. Greece, Brazil, LA, China and Asia: These teams were in the Main stage for a long time, they have shown a lot of level and they all have popular and quality players, they are clearly nations worthy of a place in the main stage, as well than all those currently in the main event.

And finally, really why cant this happen? In recent years we have had a large number of teams playing, and more and more are joining, so taking advantage of the fact that the tiers format in the wcop is about to change, I would like that TD's take this suggestion into account as well and can give more opportunities and encouragement to these talented teams. TD's can discuss the number 18/20/24, but it is a suggestion that many would surely like. Ty for read this

 

[HANTSUKI]

Good to see people are finally realizing full CG OU is terrible and bad to see the suggested solution is adding SS or DOU.

I personally think what makes this tournament "weird" is the Round 1 format. For me, a player who has played this tournament a lot of years the problem is that Round 1 of this tournament is harder than playoffs (and super random), it makes no sense in a competitive scenario, and if we have changed the format of almost all the tournaments of the site, why not changing that stupid wild format.

When I managed the competitive spanish forum, we also had 3 official team tours, and one of them (the most popular one) had the following format:

X CG OU slots.
2 slots chosen by team A
2 slots chosen by team B

As crazy as you could think this is, is so funny and allows every team to have the edge in 2 slots where they are strong at, and CG OU still has the weight in the match (it could be 4 CG OU or 6 CG OU).

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

Seeds would also be a thing when making the groups, and the seeds would be determined by the place the team ended last season.

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

I know this would be a big change to the tournament, but it allows every team to be competitive (4/6 CG slots + 2 chosen by what beneficts you) and the most important thing: Every matchup would be unique and thats so fresh to spectate.

Take this post with an open mind and I promise you world cup will be the best team tournament in the site again.

PS: The only thing to be discussed is if a team has to choose 1 old gen + 1 low tier (in his 2 slots) or it could choose 2 old gens/2 low tiers.

Peace.

This is honestly the best suggestion BY FAR, we shouldn't be discussing any other idea after this post.

Instead of excluding tiers we should take the opportunity to make it possible to include all old gens and lower tiers in the same tournament while making each series unique and letting captains actually display some management skills. This would create a tournament that we never had instead of a worse version of something we already did.

Our tournament scene has been really stagnant, we always use the same formats or like we just make it swiss (Masters). Let's have something that's exciting from the beginning to the end, where you have unique series each week. Let's have a team tournament that can reward really good mainers and versatile rosters alike while keeping CG OU important and letting everyone help each other.

I don't know you guys but I would love to have a team tournament where I can play with my brazilian friends from old gens (like ACTUALLY old gens, not still fairy gen old) and also the brazilians from lower tiers (like all lower tiers, not just Askov). I love those guys and would be a blast if we could have something like that instead of having to play a random specific PL with each one to have the opportunity.

There's nothing to worry about teams not being able to fill rosters. The teams that have it more easy will always have the upper hand no matter the format. The teams that struggle with it will have 2 slots to focus their aces and also at least half of the other slots for CG which is way more easier to find people. It's a pretty balanced idea. Worst case scenario you'll have only 2 slots that will really need help and guess what - it's a team tour and everyone can help each other figure out their shit (outside of the actual games, please).

So COME ON GUYS, LET'S HAVE SOME FUN. WE ARE IN THIS COMMUNITY TO PLAY A GAME, LET'S HAVE A GOOD TIME INSTEAD OF BEING ROBOTS RUNNING THE SAME SCRIPT EVERY FUCKING YEAR!

 

[ziloXX]

Good to see people are finally realizing full CG OU is terrible and bad to see the suggested solution is adding SS or DOU.

I personally think what makes this tournament "weird" is the Round 1 format. For me, a player who has played this tournament a lot of years the problem is that Round 1 of this tournament is harder than playoffs (and super random), it makes no sense in a competitive scenario, and if we have changed the format of almost all the tournaments of the site, why not changing that stupid wild format.

When I managed the competitive spanish forum, we also had 3 official team tours, and one of them (the most popular one) had the following format:

X CG OU slots.
2 slots chosen by team A
2 slots chosen by team B

As crazy as you could think this is, is so funny and allows every team to have the edge in 2 slots where they are strong at, and CG OU still has the weight in the match (it could be 4 CG OU or 6 CG OU).

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

Seeds would also be a thing when making the groups, and the seeds would be determined by the place the team ended last season.

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

I know this would be a big change to the tournament, but it allows every team to be competitive (4/6 CG slots + 2 chosen by what beneficts you) and the most important thing: Every matchup would be unique and thats so fresh to spectate.

Take this post with an open mind and I promise you world cup will be the best team tournament in the site again.

PS: The only thing to be discussed is if a team has to choose 1 old gen + 1 low tier (in his 2 slots) or it could choose 2 old gens/2 low tiers.

Peace.

Thx Malekith for introducing this format to the discussion. Although some people prefer to avoid discussing this format due to the radical change in how the tour works or has worked previously, I believe it's worth considering. This format solves the problems we've been having with Full CGOU and avoids the issues others have mentioned about the Luigi's format here.

People want a different format that gives more hype, and this format indeed provides that. People want to see more variety, and this format allows any official tier to be played in the tour. As for quality, reducing CGOU slots from 8 to 4 ensures that only the best players of CGOU from each team play it, allowing this players to focus more on their own slots without worrying about the filler player in slot 8 who may lack knowledge about CGOU. Additionally, your two team picks represent the best your country has to offer in any competitive tier.

Regarding the potential problems with the Luigi format mentioned in this thread, which could be avoided with the Teampicks format:

- Objectively, smaller teams can learn new tiers, but it is more difficult to expand your roster. This format maintains the 8 Slots established now.

- The choice of tiers can be arbitrary, especially when selecting the most recent OGs. This can lead to unpopular tiers being chosen. The Teampicks format eliminates this issue by allowing teams to play any tier, reducing potential future discussions on tier selection.

- The tournament identity has been a point of contention, with changes occurring every few years. Teampicks format eliminates this issue, as any tier can be played, eliminating the need for constant format changes for things always related to the tiers defined in it.

- People want CGOU to continue having the greatest importance in the tour. Luigi format reduces CGOU's presence to 40% (50% if you break the OGs/LTs symmetry that people show to care a lot ), while the Teampicks format maintains 50%, with a potential of 75% for teams using their teampicks in CGOU, preserving the desired importance of CGOU in the tour.

Wouldn't this make actually fielding a roster infinitely harder (especially for smaller regions, who are the big focus of this conversation to begin with)?

Suddenly they have to potentially account for so many tiers and this can be exploited in picking, too.

Regarding this, with Arg representing a small region, we don't feel that this format has this problem. Since the number of starters isn't increased, CGOU continues to be a decisive factor, and since we can now choose 2 tiers at our convenience, things could be easier. For rival picks, currently most teams have players in 7th and 8th slots who don't play CGOU; they're simply filling here, so there is not much difference in sending them to other tiers or that other players who simply don't play the current format because they don't like CGOU, can now play some random week where the rival chose a tier they like.

Regarding the GAP issue, it would be really cool if you see the first rounds of all Cups and see the number of big names that are eliminated there, with Bo3, in their respective tiers by relatively unknown players. You can't imagine how difficult it is for big names to play vs people who don't know what they can use/how they can play.

Furthermore, the benefits of this format extend beyond this tour. Although you can argue that Full CGOU is preferable because all new players aim to play in this tier, it's important to acknowledge that there are also newcomers who prefer to play some Old Gen or Low Tier. And this argument of "if you like X tier that is not in WcoP you still have SPL/SCL so don't cry!" it is a horrible argument. We all know that the majority of newcomers in this site aspire to play in the tier that interests them in WCoP, alongside their community, rather than on a random SPL/SCL team with some random big player (which is cool too just not the priority of the people).

What I'm trying to convey is that currently many players lack the motivation to continue playing simply because they're unable to play the tier they're interested in within their favorite tournament. As a result, they decide to stop playing/not give importance to improving and this leads to circuits with lower participation and big tours like SPL having weaker pools due to the shortage of players. I believe this format could significantly alleviate this issue.

 

[shiloh]

Malekiths system is interesting, and I think one of the flaws pointed out in #wcop is how to decide what tiers are picked in pools, since if both teams just pm the hosts at the same time, theres a good chance for repeated tiers each week. this is not an ideal way to do it, since we want to have higher diversity with the picks, and not have matchups be 25% of a non cgou tier.

my idea is to have each team submit 3 tiers ranked in order at the start of pools, and have them remain locked for all 3 weeks of the pools.

the way it plays out would be if each team has different 1st and 2nd choices, then all 4 of those tiers make up the week alongside 4 cg ou, no issue here. but if if teams have a repeated tier in the first two, its not played and instead both 3rd options are played.

a way this would look would be:

Argentina's tiers are: ADV OU / RBY OU / GSC OU (in that order)
US East's tiers are: RBY OU / DPP OU / BW OU (in that order)

in this case since both teams have RBY OU in the first two choices, we go with GSC OU and BW OU instead. making the matchup look like:

SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / ADV OU (Argentina) / GSC OU (Argentina) / DPP OU (East) / BW OU (East)

in a situation where both the 1st and 2nd options are the same, you can do one of each and both teams 3rd option. as an example:

Argentina's tiers are: DPP OU / RBY OU / GSC OU (in that order)
US East's tiers are: RBY OU / DPP OU / BW OU (in that order)

the tiers played are then: SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / DPP OU (Both) / RBY OU (Both) / BW OU (East) / GSC OU (Argentina)

the only way this format doesnt work is if both teams have all 3 tiers the same, in which case hosts can just have them each pm an additional tier prior to the week going up (and repeating till they have different ones)

there are some downsides here, namely being smaller teams might have their strongest option crossed out in pools against opps that also have the tier chosen, leaving them to play a not as strong roster. i think this is /fine/ since there are a few things working against it. one being that since these tiers are locked from the start of pools, nobody is going to be picking tiers solely to counterpick one opponent and removing their strongest slot, since that would mean they would likely have to play it against other opponents. the other way its /fine/ is because you are also removing one of your opponents top two tiers, which means their roster will likely not be as strong either.

theres also the downside of pools being a little less exciting, since each week wont have teams picking new tiers, but that does save some hype for playoffs and lets there be a question on whether a team will stick with pool picks, or start counter picking based on opponents.

theres also the additional benefit of this helping smaller teams in pools, since they will know all their opponents tiers before playing them since these will be the same week over week. this would let smaller teams know that by week 3 they should be ready with a NU player and at least get the ball rolling a bit there as well. it also evens their field a little bit since they wont have opponents counter picking specifically for them, and can just focus on their strongest slots.

i think this helps solve the issue on how tiers are picked, and once the tournament shifts over to the knockout rounds can just move to lower seed gets to pick first. this would also mean BD in playoffs can come into play potentially, since that can be used as a tiebreak and creates a better viewing experience for everyone since every game will have some stakes.

overall I think this formats kinda cool, and i think theres more than enough time to implement it if wanted (spls still ongoing) but either way wanted to make this post for whenever its needed.

 

[reyscarface]

Honestly, as fun as pools are I think its interesting to do away with them for a year and try something new and fresh like what Drifting described. Makes it more like the real world cup, sure some teams wont face each other in the tournament but I mean, pools already leave you without the "feel" of playing the other teams since you only play like two dudes from each team lol. Also alleviates the issue of pools in which you could be hella unlucky and get the 2 best players (or 2 of the best players) from each team you face and youre in an uphill battle, especially if you decide to go with a seed style for the groups like in the real World Cup.

It would be super interesting to see nations actually go against each other fully in something that isnt just the playoffs. The banter, the pride, the potential is all there. Time wise its not that different since it only adds 1 extra week for the group stage (4 total weeks instead of the 3 from pools).

If you do go with groups, the tier pick "problem" shiloh describes is non existent since you can either do a draft style pick for each week's opponent in that team A picks one tier, then team B picks 2, then team A picks the last one with the rule that you cannot repeat tiers picked (except for SV if you want to mandate that). Or since its 4 weeks, you can randomize two "away" weeks and two "home" weeks in which you pick your tiers second for your home week.

I think the suggestions given here are a breath of fresh air in a tournament that while not a bad one by any means, has felt quite stagnant in its format and its about time we try something new. At least give it some real thought, remember that the pools system we have right now wasnt the original format for the WCoP, it was actually some weirdo individual tournament in which you got points for your team depending on how far each player got. Then it became pools, imagine if we just disregarded it because "this is how the tournament is", we would still have that shit individual/team tour hybrid. Its been almost 20 years since a change happened, its about time. And if its shit or doesnt work out just revert, who cares.

 

[FFK]

Malekiths system is interesting, and I think one of the flaws pointed out in #wcop is how to decide what tiers are picked in pools, since if both teams just pm the hosts at the same time, theres a good chance for repeated tiers each week. this is not an ideal way to do it, since we want to have higher diversity with the picks, and not have matchups be 25% of a non cgou tier.

my idea is to have each team submit 3 tiers ranked in order at the start of pools, and have them remain locked for all 3 weeks of the pools.

the way it plays out would be if each team has different 1st and 2nd choices, then all 4 of those tiers make up the week alongside 4 cg ou, no issue here. but if if teams have a repeated tier in the first two, its not played and instead both 3rd options are played.

a way this would look would be:

Argentina's tiers are: ADV OU / RBY OU / GSC OU (in that order)
US East's tiers are: RBY OU / DPP OU / BW OU (in that order)

in this case since both teams have RBY OU in the first two choices, we go with GSC OU and BW OU instead. making the matchup look like:

SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / ADV OU (Argentina) / GSC OU (Argentina) / DPP OU (East) / BW OU (East)

in a situation where both the 1st and 2nd options are the same, you can do one of each and both teams 3rd option. as an example:

Argentina's tiers are: DPP OU / RBY OU / GSC OU (in that order)
US East's tiers are: RBY OU / DPP OU / BW OU (in that order)

the tiers played are then: SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / DPP OU (Both) / RBY OU (Both) / BW OU (East) / GSC OU (Argentina)

the only way this format doesnt work is if both teams have all 3 tiers the same, in which case hosts can just have them each pm an additional tier prior to the week going up (and repeating till they have different ones)

there are some downsides here, namely being smaller teams might have their strongest option crossed out in pools against opps that also have the tier chosen, leaving them to play a not as strong roster. i think this is /fine/ since there are a few things working against it. one being that since these tiers are locked from the start of pools, nobody is going to be picking tiers solely to counterpick one opponent and removing their strongest slot, since that would mean they would likely have to play it against other opponents. the other way its /fine/ is because you are also removing one of your opponents top two tiers, which means their roster will likely not be as strong either.

theres also the downside of pools being a little less exciting, since each week wont have teams picking new tiers, but that does save some hype for playoffs and lets there be a question on whether a team will stick with pool picks, or start counter picking based on opponents.

theres also the additional benefit of this helping smaller teams in pools, since they will know all their opponents tiers before playing them since these will be the same week over week. this would let smaller teams know that by week 3 they should be ready with a NU player and at least get the ball rolling a bit there as well. it also evens their field a little bit since they wont have opponents counter picking specifically for them, and can just focus on their strongest slots.

i think this helps solve the issue on how tiers are picked, and once the tournament shifts over to the knockout rounds can just move to lower seed gets to pick first. this would also mean BD in playoffs can come into play potentially, since that can be used as a tiebreak and creates a better viewing experience for everyone since every game will have some stakes.

overall I think this formats kinda cool, and i think theres more than enough time to implement it if wanted (spls still ongoing) but either way wanted to make this post for whenever its needed.

There are some points I don't understand but great post, since every teams are picking tiers before each phase (pool, playoffs) how do you manage your roster as you are locked to 1 team obviously (like you can't change the players of your team) imagine you don't have any RBY players, and the other team pick RBY, you're kinda fucked up since you don't have any RBY'ers and having players for every tiers to prevent this situation is just not possible, this would mean allowing teams to change players every phases and this would still be unfair for smaller teams. Maybe I just didn't understand your point though

 

[RoiDadadou]

Malekiths system is interesting, and I think one of the flaws pointed out in #wcop is how to decide what tiers are picked in pools, since if both teams just pm the hosts at the same time, theres a good chance for repeated tiers each week. this is not an ideal way to do it, since we want to have higher diversity with the picks, and not have matchups be 25% of a non cgou tier.

my idea is to have each team submit 3 tiers ranked in order at the start of pools, and have them remain locked for all 3 weeks of the pools.

the way it plays out would be if each team has different 1st and 2nd choices, then all 4 of those tiers make up the week alongside 4 cg ou, no issue here. but if if teams have a repeated tier in the first two, its not played and instead both 3rd options are played.

a way this would look would be:

Argentina's tiers are: ADV OU / RBY OU / GSC OU (in that order)
US East's tiers are: RBY OU / DPP OU / BW OU (in that order)

in this case since both teams have RBY OU in the first two choices, we go with GSC OU and BW OU instead. making the matchup look like:

SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / ADV OU (Argentina) / GSC OU (Argentina) / DPP OU (East) / BW OU (East)

in a situation where both the 1st and 2nd options are the same, you can do one of each and both teams 3rd option. as an example:

Argentina's tiers are: DPP OU / RBY OU / GSC OU (in that order)
US East's tiers are: RBY OU / DPP OU / BW OU (in that order)

the tiers played are then: SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / SV OU / DPP OU (Both) / RBY OU (Both) / BW OU (East) / GSC OU (Argentina)

the only way this format doesnt work is if both teams have all 3 tiers the same, in which case hosts can just have them each pm an additional tier prior to the week going up (and repeating till they have different ones)

there are some downsides here, namely being smaller teams might have their strongest option crossed out in pools against opps that also have the tier chosen, leaving them to play a not as strong roster. i think this is /fine/ since there are a few things working against it. one being that since these tiers are locked from the start of pools, nobody is going to be picking tiers solely to counterpick one opponent and removing their strongest slot, since that would mean they would likely have to play it against other opponents. the other way its /fine/ is because you are also removing one of your opponents top two tiers, which means their roster will likely not be as strong either.

theres also the downside of pools being a little less exciting, since each week wont have teams picking new tiers, but that does save some hype for playoffs and lets there be a question on whether a team will stick with pool picks, or start counter picking based on opponents.

theres also the additional benefit of this helping smaller teams in pools, since they will know all their opponents tiers before playing them since these will be the same week over week. this would let smaller teams know that by week 3 they should be ready with a NU player and at least get the ball rolling a bit there as well. it also evens their field a little bit since they wont have opponents counter picking specifically for them, and can just focus on their strongest slots.

i think this helps solve the issue on how tiers are picked, and once the tournament shifts over to the knockout rounds can just move to lower seed gets to pick first. this would also mean BD in playoffs can come into play potentially, since that can be used as a tiebreak and creates a better viewing experience for everyone since every game will have some stakes.

overall I think this formats kinda cool, and i think theres more than enough time to implement it if wanted (spls still ongoing) but either way wanted to make this post for whenever its needed.

Another way could be to cirvumvent this like a Drafting phase.

Team 1 make their first pick, then team 2 make their two picks, then team 1 make their second pick. Just a thought, but maybe simpler and fairer than just saying 'both teams won't have a slot they both wish to play', like in the RBY example.

Still a very nice post, just wanted to suggest this regarding what you said.

 

[pulsar512b]

Another way could be to cirvumvent this like a Drafting phase.

Team 1 makes their first pick, then team 2 makes their two picks, then team 1 make their second pick. Just a thought, but maybe simpler and fairer than just saying 'both teams won't have a slot they both wish to play', like in the RBY example.

Still a very nice post, just wanted to suggest this regarding what you said.

could add bans too so if eg a team just doesnt have any players for xyz, they can go yeah no we dont want to play xyz

 

[RoiDadadou]

could add bans too so if eg a team just doesnt have any players for xyz, they can go yeah no we dont want to play xyz

Feels like you thus have to remove the CG OU from the ban selection, to allow for what both Shiloh and Malekith formulated: allowing smaller teams that can't slot in much variety in their picks due to playerbase to pick CG OU as one or both of their two picks.

If this measure is taken then yes by all mean, preventing a team from challenging you in a very one sided matchup with a ban could be more than welcome

 

[Astoria]

Good to see people are finally realizing full CG OU is terrible and bad to see the suggested solution is adding SS or DOU.

I personally think what makes this tournament "weird" is the Round 1 format. For me, a player who has played this tournament a lot of years the problem is that Round 1 of this tournament is harder than playoffs (and super random), it makes no sense in a competitive scenario, and if we have changed the format of almost all the tournaments of the site, why not changing that stupid wild format.

When I managed the competitive spanish forum, we also had 3 official team tours, and one of them (the most popular one) had the following format:

X CG OU slots.
2 slots chosen by team A
2 slots chosen by team B

As crazy as you could think this is, is so funny and allows every team to have the edge in 2 slots where they are strong at, and CG OU still has the weight in the match (it could be 4 CG OU or 6 CG OU).

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

Seeds would also be a thing when making the groups, and the seeds would be determined by the place the team ended last season.

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

I know this would be a big change to the tournament, but it allows every team to be competitive (4/6 CG slots + 2 chosen by what beneficts you) and the most important thing: Every matchup would be unique and thats so fresh to spectate.

Take this post with an open mind and I promise you world cup will be the best team tournament in the site again.

PS: The only thing to be discussed is if a team has to choose 1 old gen + 1 low tier (in his 2 slots) or it could choose 2 old gens/2 low tiers.

Peace.

voiceing support as small team. after careful consideration we think this is the best format by far.