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It's not that your comment was rude, they were pointing out that if you contact an admin about a teraless ladder, you should do so politely, as some users have reportedly been a bit aggressive and threatening in regards to this request
I'm going to assume your suggestion was not out of bad faith and adding onto what the previous user already answered, it's very disingenuous to suspect something AFTER the fact or BEFORE the fact. you gotta see it like this: are you voting based on the state of the current meta or are you voting based on your impressions of a (by your account) temporary meta? The fact of the matter is that the current meta is what we have to work with. Everything else can give you an impression of things, but it's not going to be the meta you pull up on ladder, not the meta used in tournaments, etc... It's like if we suspected Archaludon without Archaludon allowed. Are you voting on Archaludon's brokenness or on your impression on the lack thereof? Because even if you find something broken, people might disagree. That's like the whole point of suspects, as least how I see it. Going into it without a clear opinion and form one as you play. If you removed tera to justify that teraless is better, you're just stating an opinion, not addressing how tera ACTUALLY affects the current meta.
I appreciate your reasoning on it and ig understand why the other dude threw that in there. My statement before was an opinion but I can give examples of how tera affects the meta.
Positives: Tera gives extra power for some mons to get that 2hko or ohko, this is beneficial to breakers and makes an offense more viable
Negatives: Tera in the meta allows for mind games to happen. Mind games don't seem beneficial to a meta as it adds another layer to an already complex and headache to deal with the game. An objectively bad play might be rewarded heavily due to prediction.
Second, it just makes it so much harder to build and account for everything in a game. Do I have to worry about a tera fire from rillaboom late-game that determines everything? What if Valiant is tera dark, or wait maybe steel? With Tera you can't make a team that solidly counters what you expect it to. It adds complexity which ties into the mind games of an individual style. Tera has heavily affected team building.
Lastly, making a mistake by not predicting a tera literally can cost games. With power creep being so high lots of mons in OU have sweeping potential. Tera facilitates this as if your opponent makes the wrong play it lights out.
There are more ways that tera affects the meta but I cannot clearly define them as I want to right now. Opinion wise I 100% think the meta will become more balanced with a tera ban. I've seen other people discuss it but it's really gotten nowhere. Personally I want it to change and I would like a suspect on it.
are you voting based on the state of the current meta or are you voting based on your impressions of a (by your account) temporary meta? The fact of the matter is that the current meta is what we have to work with. Everything else can give you an impression of things, but it's not going to be the meta you pull up on ladder, not the meta used in tournaments, etc... It's like if we suspected Archaludon without Archaludon allowed. Are you voting on Archaludon's brokenness or on your impression on the lack thereof? Because even if you find something broken, people might disagree. That's like the whole point of suspects, as least how I see it. Going into it without a clear opinion and form one as you play. If you removed tera to justify that teraless is better, you're just stating an opinion, not addressing how tera ACTUALLY affects the current meta.
Doesn't this miss the point? While Tera has been discussed to death by now, it's obviously a very central part of the meta. Having it or not having it has many huge implications either way. It's not really comparable to talk about a suspect of a pokemon like Arch when we are talking about a generational mechanic. Even Sleep was handled differently partly because it was a mechanic, not a pokemon.
The point of removing Tera or creating an alternate ladder/OM/etc. would be to see what the gen actually looks like without it. This is actually valuable because sometimes you get used to the way things are and a different perspective can help you notice things. Instead of folks arguing about what they think would or wouldn't happen without it, or how they believe Tera does or doesn't warp the meta, we could actually see the difference for ourselves. How would this not be relevant?
And before you say they are separate metas again, that's literally the point. You compare the differences and the impact of it becomes more clear. It's not a perfect comparison. Obviously, there are certain things that cannot translate. However, the general impacts would become more clear and less deniable.
Also, it's probably not fair to imply folks might be removing Tera just to get rid of it. We clearly aren't even having a suspect on Tera anytime soon. So it's not even a suspect. Even after comparing metas, the chances of a suspect would be highly uncertain. This could even bring a a stronger case for keeping Tera, depending on how it played out. A lot of people's minds would need to be changed.
Doesn't this miss the point? While Tera has been discussed to death by now, it's obviously a very central part of the meta. Having it or not having it has many huge implications either way. It's not really comparable to talk about a suspect of a pokemon like Arch when we are talking about a generational mechanic. Even Sleep was handled differently partly because it was a mechanic, not a pokemon.
The point of removing Tera or creating an alternate ladder/OM/etc. would be to see what the gen actually looks like without it. This is actually valuable because sometimes you get used to the way things are and a different perspective can help you notice things. Instead of folks arguing about what they think would or wouldn't happen without it, or how they believe Tera does or doesn't warp the meta, we could actually see the difference for ourselves. How would this not be relevant?
And before you say they are separate metas again, that's literally the point. You compare the differences and the impact of it becomes more clear. It's not a perfect comparison. Obviously, there are certain things that cannot translate. However, the general impacts would become more clear and less deniable.
Also, it's probably not fair to imply folks might be removing Tera just to get rid of it. We clearly aren't even having a suspect on Tera anytime soon. So it's not even a suspect. Even after comparing metas, the chances of a suspect would be highly uncertain. This could even bring a a stronger case for keeping Tera, depending on how it played out. A lot of people's minds would need to be changed.
The best way to evaluate whether a meta would be better off without tera is to observe the teraless meta in parallel as they both evolve.
That’s because the only surefire way to get a causal estimate of a treatment effect (tera’s impact on player enjoyment) is to observe the counterfactual (the meta without tera and everything it entails). Now you might chime in here and say, “Now that’s not what a suspect is supposed to be about”. But good policy tends to be driven by a causal question: “What is the impact of X?” That’s the question that’s the most important for the population, i.e. players.
It’s a basic principle of public policy (and most of data science generally) to estimate a treatment effect by controlling for confounders. A simple way to do this is to observe the meta without the treatment (tera) and then employ a differences-in-differences study design on a response variable like player satisfaction scores among qualified voters. In doing so, you estimate the treatment effect of keeping tera or not in a way that is unbiased from confounders (power creep, general meta trends, etc).
It seems to me that Smogon policy is to vote based off solely an observation of the present meta with no account for confounders. It’s the way it’s always been done, and will probably stay that way. But from a public policy perspective, it’s actually rather unsound.
Most people probably won’t give a shit about this but I thought I’d chime in for those who might be interested. I know Smogon is just for a game, but it’s interesting to see the difference in approach between the decisions on this site and the kind of causal research that drives government policy.
A Teraless suspect ladder would be a mess and a waste of time.
A Tera ban would cause a monumental shift in the metagame that the meta would be thrown into disarray for weeks. So what do you do? Do you extend the standard suspect length of two weeks into a month, two months, three? How long do you keep it going for the metagame to balance itself out? No other tiering actions can be made while the Tera suspect is going on: what if another mon emerges as broken while the Teraless ladder is still trying to stabilize? What if it can never balance itself without bans, what then? Do you start banning mons? But that wouldn't be a true representation of a Teraless ladder, because now you've taken further tiering action outside the scope of the Tera ban itself.
Meanwhile, a Teraless ladder itself has little justification to stand. We did not create a Dynamax-OU tier in Gen 8, and I see little reason why we should create a Teraless ladder in Gen 9. You aren't even appealing to the majority here: you're appealing to the small minority, and all you'll end up doing is shrinking the playerbase for a ladder which, let's be honest, would still end up resembling OU in way too many ways. Great Tusk suddenly isn't going to drop from the top of the tier just because it can't become a Water type.
"O but we can compare the metagames to see if Tera is balanced!"
See my point above about a Tera suspect ladder.
"Even if we're still in the minority, it doesn't matter! Tera is destabilizing the tier!"
Unfortunately we cannot create a new OU-lite tier every time a tiering action happens, just because some people want the opposite. We did not create a Chien Pao-OU once it was banned, and we did not create a Kyurem-less OU once it dodged the ban hammer. Sure, Tera is a step up, but why should you be the special ones that get the new tier, when these other tiers would theoretically have more support?
Furthermore, this would also completely disregard the point of the suspect test. You laddered and grinded and sweat blood and tears so you could make your voice heard? Oops, it doesn't matter anyways because we split the ladders. Sorry about that. What you're arguing for undermines what the playerbase actually wanted: you are the minority trying to upstage the majority, yet you complain that your voices aren't being heard.
Also, even if Tera is destabilizing the tier, that's the entire point of suspect tests. We can take action on individual mons that Tera enables to be broken and ban them instead, if we decide to keep Tera, and guess what, that's what we're doing right now.
"But this tier can never stabilize with Tera in it!"
Natdex, despite keeping Tera in a far more contentious vote, has mostly stabilized after banning Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Dragapult. Some argue that Ogerpon-Wellspring/Zamazenta are still a bit overboard (I am one of them get the mask out the tier), but it has undeniably improved in leaps and bounds since its initial Tera suspect, and I would say it's in a better state than OU right now.
Now are these tiers 1 to 1? Of course not, Natdex has tons of more mons, both defensive and offensive, that help shape the tier in a way OU could never. But OU can still definitely reach that point: we just need a few more bans of our own, like Gouging Fire.
"But all those mons could be kept without Tera!"
The majority of the playerbase decided that they wanted Tera more than they wanted to keep those mons in the tier, and therefore that's how the tiering decisions should follow.
If you are commenting in response to previous few messages, we weren’t talking about a tera suspect ladder but rather a teraless OM (like Natdex is a meta)
Obviously creating a new ladder just for the purposes of a suspect would be a ridiculous thing to do because the meta shifts in the wake of a tera ban would take many weeks.
To my knowledge, nobody has polled support for a teraless OM. Who knows what the support would be?
If you are commenting in response to previous few messages, we weren’t talking about a tera suspect ladder but rather a teraless OM (like Natdex is a meta)
Obviously creating a new ladder just for the purposes of a suspect would be a ridiculous thing to do because the meta shifts in the wake of a tera ban would take many weeks.
To my knowledge, nobody has polled support for a teraless OM. Who knows what the support would be?
Meanwhile, a Teraless ladder itself has little justification to stand. We did not create a Dynamax-OU tier in Gen 8, and I see little reason why we should create a Teraless ladder in Gen 9. You aren't even appealing to the majority here: you're appealing to the small minority, and all you'll end up doing is shrinking the playerbase for a ladder which, let's be honest, would still end up resembling OU in way too many ways. Great Tusk suddenly isn't going to drop from the top of the tier just because it can't become a Water type.
Okay, so then poll it. Find out how many people want to have a teraless OM. Do that, and then you can approach smogon about the idea. Most people don't mind if there is a teraless OM, I don't see the reason why because it most likely wouldn't change what threats there are in the meta but you do you, but actually do it. We won't know if you don't do it. Start the trend, because nothing will happen without people doing the starting steps.
Okay, so then poll it. Find out how many people want to have a teraless OM. Do that, and then you can approach smogon about the idea. Most people don't mind if there is a teraless OM, I don't see the reason why because it most likely wouldn't change what threats there are in the meta but you do you, but actually do it. We won't know if you don't do it. Start the trend, because nothing will happen without people doing the starting steps.
Thanks for the reply. To be honest I don’t particularly care much one way or the other (I’m mostly a fan of tera) but figured it was some interesting food for thought (and I like debating with people). Might as well drop a poll sometime on r/Stunfisk. Because now I’m curious.
I don't think tera is necessarily a healthy part of the meta anymore, but it is a mechanic I enjoy. I wouldn't exactly be sad if it left but I can definitely deal with it staying. That being said Kingambit gotta go
Okay, so then poll it. Find out how many people want to have a teraless OM. Do that, and then you can approach smogon about the idea. Most people don't mind if there is a teraless OM, I don't see the reason why because it most likely wouldn't change what threats there are in the meta but you do you, but actually do it. We won't know if you don't do it. Start the trend, because nothing will happen without people doing the starting steps.
The idea is that they switch in their Fast Thing on the turn I click Tidy Up and get slowed down by the webs, so now I'm faster than whatever they tried to outspeed me with. Thus, they need to hold the Fast Thing in reserve and Maushold gets a free kill on whatever swapped in; +1 Population Bomb is crazy and I run Tera Dark to ensure +1 Technician Bite can deal with the ghosts.
Since I'm using Maushold specifically as a cleaner, rather than a mid-game breaker and hazard removal, I have many more opportunities to remove any Rocky Helmets. I'm not sure it's any good - again, I am low ladder - but it's been fun.
The idea is that they switch in their Fast Thing on the turn I click Tidy Up and get slowed down by the webs, so now I'm faster than whatever they tried to outspeed me with. Thus, they need to hold the Fast Thing in reserve and Maushold gets a free kill on whatever swapped in; +1 Population Bomb is crazy and I run Tera Dark to ensure +1 Technician Bite can deal with the ghosts.
Since I'm using Maushold specifically as a cleaner, rather than a mid-game breaker and hazard removal, I have many more opportunities to remove any Rocky Helmets. I'm not sure it's any good - again, I am low ladder - but it's been fun.
I would also add that depending on how necessary the +1 ATK is to certain switch-ins, Sticky Web also would function as insurance against certain faster opponents. If you don't want to Tidy Up and risk removing other hazards, then the -1 Speed still keeps Maushold moderately fast into a lot of opponents, messes with speed control like Booster Valiant (which would outspeed if it gets in without the Web being affected such as a RK on a Tidy Up usage) and makes Scarfers exploitable for another potential set-up teammate (Scarfkrai for example is exploitable without the +1 to assure it goes first while being JUST low power enough for a DD user to get its own +1) to finish the job.
The best term I can think of for Maushold with Webs is "Insurance". It keeps your options open, but once you commit to removing it with Tidy Up be sure you finish the match quickly.
I appreciate your reasoning on it and ig understand why the other dude threw that in there. My statement before was an opinion but I can give examples of how tera affects the meta.
Positives: Tera gives extra power for some mons to get that 2hko or ohko, this is beneficial to breakers and makes an offense more viable
Negatives: Tera in the meta allows for mind games to happen. Mind games don't seem beneficial to a meta as it adds another layer to an already complex and headache to deal with the game. An objectively bad play might be rewarded heavily due to prediction.
Second, it just makes it so much harder to build and account for everything in a game. Do I have to worry about a tera fire from rillaboom late-game that determines everything? What if Valiant is tera dark, or wait maybe steel? With Tera you can't make a team that solidly counters what you expect it to. It adds complexity which ties into the mind games of an individual style. Tera has heavily affected team building.
Lastly, making a mistake by not predicting a tera literally can cost games. With power creep being so high lots of mons in OU have sweeping potential. Tera facilitates this as if your opponent makes the wrong play it lights out.
There are more ways that tera affects the meta but I cannot clearly define them as I want to right now. Opinion wise I 100% think the meta will become more balanced with a tera ban. I've seen other people discuss it but it's really gotten nowhere. Personally I want it to change and I would like a suspect on it.
And hey, even if I'm not on your boat, your opinion is completely valid. The thing is that having a separate teraless ladder is not going to bring anything worth of note, that's the only thing that I'm pointing out.
Doesn't this miss the point? While Tera has been discussed to death by now, it's obviously a very central part of the meta. Having it or not having it has many huge implications either way. It's not really comparable to talk about a suspect of a pokemon like Arch when we are talking about a generational mechanic. Even Sleep was handled differently partly because it was a mechanic, not a pokemon.
The point of removing Tera or creating an alternate ladder/OM/etc. would be to see what the gen actually looks like without it. This is actually valuable because sometimes you get used to the way things are and a different perspective can help you notice things. Instead of folks arguing about what they think would or wouldn't happen without it, or how they believe Tera does or doesn't warp the meta, we could actually see the difference for ourselves. How would this not be relevant?
And before you say they are separate metas again, that's literally the point. You compare the differences and the impact of it becomes more clear. It's not a perfect comparison. Obviously, there are certain things that cannot translate. However, the general impacts would become more clear and less deniable.
Also, it's probably not fair to imply folks might be removing Tera just to get rid of it. We clearly aren't even having a suspect on Tera anytime soon. So it's not even a suspect. Even after comparing metas, the chances of a suspect would be highly uncertain. This could even bring a a stronger case for keeping Tera, depending on how it played out. A lot of people's minds would need to be changed.
I personally am not too opposed to a teraless ladder in a vacuum, but many have given pretty solid arguments on why it not only would not be a good thing but also a detrimental thing. First of all, it sets a precedent, and if tera gets a separate ladder, who says that one day people won't be pushing for a hazardless ladder or something like that? And I get that tera is a mechanic and not a mon, but I feel like it's not that different. In the same way that you teambuild with Tera in mind, you teambuild with Kingambit in mind, you teambuild with sleep moves or no sleep moves in mind, etc etc... Saying "ahhh i would have won this match if Garg didn't tera water" is fundamentally the same thing as "ahhh i would have won this match if Kingambit wouldn't have reverse swept my team". If anything, many would argue with you that Gholdengo has a more pressing effect on the meta and teambuilding than Tera does, for that matter. I'm not saying your opinion ain't valid, I'm saying that the means don't justify the ends and much less in this scenario. There's barely anything to be won from a teraless ladder, people who enjoy tera will keep playing regular ladder and many won't take the time to experiment a different meta which is not guaranteed to be THE meta.
Thanks for the reply. To be honest I don’t particularly care much one way or the other (I’m mostly a fan of tera) but figured it was some interesting food for thought (and I like debating with people). Might as well drop a poll sometime on r/Stunfisk. Because now I’m curious.
No disrespect, but I don't think r/stunfisk is a good metric. For the little I've seen of them, they're a bit of an anti-tera echo chamber and not really that involved with Smogon itself.
Don't want to overstep myself but hey Finchinator can we get a teraless OM question in the next community survey, and if support is shown people can go start a thread in the OM forum and if no support is shown then we can blacklist discussion of it in this thread? because it is getting kind of annoying that every couple weeks we get two pages worth of discussion on whether a Teraless ladder/OM would be good or bad. I know people don't bring it up out of bad faith mostly, but the point has been beaten to death for months now.
I'm remembering the first week of tera stellar existing my ass was saying shit like "we need to ban tera stellar that's the obvious problem with serp/enam" and then it turns out serp doesn't want it because heatran is really good. Tera Stellar isn't even good for tera raids in game, game freak how do you kneecap your own mechanic like this
What was rude about my comment? I see no need to sneak in that politely in there lol. I don't think it's that insane of an idea and it is just a suggestion, nothing more.
This wasn't specifically targeted at you, it was a general suggestion to anyone asking for teraless roomtours because roommods have to put up with so much dumb shit. Don't take it personally.
My first ever big write up if I recall was Thundurus. Today, I will talk about Thundurus again, who I consider to be underrated in the SV OU metagame.
No not this Thundurus.
This Thundurus.
Section I: Thundurus-I’s Competitive History
BW Saying Thundurus-I didn’t tear up the whole tier by itself would be an understatement. So broken in fact, that it was banned before even Deo-S.
-111 Speed was considered incredibly fast before ORAS. Only outsped by the following OU mons.
(also
)
-It’s speed tier got the jump on Terrakion, Latios, and Garchomp.
-Thundy made use of that speed to abuse its high 125 SpA and Boltbeam coverage, with Focus Miss to smack Ferrothorn or Grass Knot for Gastrodon.
-Permanent Rain let it abuse 100% accurate Thunders which crushed even resists.
-Even at the off chance Thundy was gonna get outsped, Prankster T-Wave ensured it was always the fastest thing in the field not named Sand Rush Excadrill or Scarf Grounds.
-Though its Therian form had 20 more points in SpA, the lower speed tier and lack of Prankster T-Wave made it reasonable in the BW OU metagame.
XY/ORAS
Thundy-I was unbanned in Gen 6 due metagame was faster and stronger than ever, with speed demons like Mega Lopunny, the buffed Weavile, and Tornadus-T blitzing through the tier.
-In the current ORAS landscape, Thundy-I serves as a wallbreaker with Boltbeam + Focus Blast.
- It also ran Nasty Plot or Mixed sets which lured Chansey.
-Prankster Thunder Wave was an invaluable tool vs HO which has heightened in usage after ORAS was no longer the CG. Because of Prankster, Thundy can land a T-Wave no matter if Volcarona was at +6 Speed. It was also just a generally good tool for guaranteeing progress.
-As a result of its versatility, Thundy-I was placed in A tier in the current ORAS Viability Rankings.
SUMO/USUM
Gen 7 would mark the end of its OU reign. Thundy-I was bombed by nerfs and power creep.
-Because of its absolute dominance in VGC thanks to Prankster, the ability was nerfed to not work on Dark types. T-Wave was also nerfed to 90% accuracy and paralysis as a whole was nerfed to only decrease speed by 50% as opposed to 75%.
-The final nail in the coffin was Tapu Koko who not only checked it, but had a superior offensive prawless despite having a worse SpA stat. The 130 Speed stat was ultimately more important.
-It also struggled to compete with its Therian form for the first time due to higher offenses putting the hurt on special walls like AV Magearna and Gastrodon with +2 Z-Focus Blast.
-Thundy-I would drop to UU and proved to be too much for the tier. They simply weren’t not equipped to deal with its coverage, Nasty Plot, or mixed sets. So now it sits in BL hell, unable to be good in OU but being too good for UU.
-It wasn’t the end of the world for it. Thundy-I is still in the Viability Rankings in C rank. It accompanies the same niche as Thundy-T but with the benefit of outrunning Kartana, the Lati Twins, and Garchomp.
SS Whereas Thundy-I at least accompanied a small niche in USUM, Thundy-I in SS was nowhere to be seen.
-Losing Hidden Power was a massive blow to its viability, no longer can it threaten Lando-T with Boltbeam coverage.
-It has also been completely eclipsed by the OG Electric/Flying type Zapdos who gained Hurricane in Gen 8 and has better overall longevity/utility.
-Koko also still exists in this tier, outclassing it as usual, and in the off-chance you decide to use another Electric type, Zeraora was right there.
-Slowking-G was also a huge check to it and others like Lando checked it due to the lack of HP Ice.
-As expected, Thundy-I dropped again, all the way down to NU in fact. This was a fluke however, because not only would it prove too much for NU, but it’d be too much for RU and even UU.
SV Now we enter Gen 9, a.k.a the CG, and Poor Thundy-I still could not catch a break. Currently, Thundy-I is NU, and has been for quite some time because welcome to Gen 9. Killowattrel was the new Electric/Flying type in town, packing Hurricane which Thundy could only dream about. So if Thundy can’t compete with this gen’s regional bird, how on earth can this NU Pokemon possibly have a niche in SV OU where Raging Bolt is a top mon in the tier rn?
Section II: Thundurus-I’s Niche In The Indigo Disk Metagame
(192 HP Thundy-I at full survives a Proto boosted Knock from Moon, non-Tera Cudgel, CB Rilla Wood Hammer, and Proto Boosted Rbolt. 180 Sped outruns Tusk.)
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ice/Ghost
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast/Weather Ball/Grass Knot
- Knock Off/U-Turn
- Thunder Wave
(208 Sped outruns max Speed Lando. Modest cranks up its damage output and allows it to possibly 2HKO Clodsire with Tera Ice Blast.)
-We’ve seen high usage of T-Wave on the likes of Gking and Pult to slow down offensive threats and force progress on bulkier builds. T-Wave is invaluable in to slow down these fast offensive threats in a tier defined by offense. However if for example Dragapult is up against a Booster Iron Valiant, Pult will not be able to land a T-Wave, but Thundy can with that illusive priority T-Wave. Because of Garchomp’s absence, Thundy can afford to run Modest which still outruns Tusk and Lando.
-HP Ice may be gone, but it lives in spirit via Tera Ice Blast, letting it one shot Tusk, Lando, and Gliscor while nearly 2HKOing Clodsire thanks to Modest.
-It possesses the deadly combo of T-Wave + Knock which cripples checks like Gking, Blissey, Clodsire, and Ting-Lu.
-Hammer Arm is another option I’ve considered on Thundy. Tera Ice + Hammer Arm lets you beat Weavile leads. It also smacks Blissey, Treads, and Gambit directly.
-Grass Knot is another option over Tera Ice Blast which smacks Tusk without burning Tera with the added benefit of 2HKOing Garg.
-Vs Defense, Thundy-I acts as a wallbreaker. Using Boltbeam coverage in conjunction with Knock Off and T-Wave to put pressure on special walls like Slowking-G with help from Spikes.
-Vs Offense, it uses Prankster T-Wave to cripple a plethora of offensive threats regardless if they’re at +6 and still threatens with big damage.
-The X factor of Prankster T-Wave means Thundy is never deadweight in any matchup. The threat of it looms regardless if Thundy is at 100% or 1% HP. Even with this gen being the most Dark-infested, many of them don’t like switching into Thundy except Ting-Lu who hates Knock.
-Despite Thundy’s lackluster bulk, with 48 EVs into HP, it lives hits at full such as…
-Non-Tera Cudgel from Ogerpon
-Valiant Moonblast
-Proto boosted hit from Rbolt
-Hex Pult Draco
-Gholdengo Sball
-Enam Moonblast
-Adamant Samu Razor Shell
-Cinder Pyro Ball
-Ice Spinner from Tusk
What this means is Thundy is capable of trading its HP to land a T-Wave and in the best case scenario, stay alive in the battlefield. Either it stays in to deal chip or switches out to land another T-Wave later on.
Section III: Thundurus-I’s Matchups Vs The Offensive Metagame
This section shows how good/bad Thundy-I is at 1v1ing the big offensive threats from S to B+ tier. Its matchups are determined on how well it does in the 1v1, or outright switching in, plus whether or not T-Wave is an option vs them.
Red = Negative MU Yellow = Neutral MU Black/White (depending on if you use light/dark mode) = Situation-Dependent MU Green = Positive MU
Kingambit: Gambit is a very bulky Dark type, and as established, Dark types are immune to Prankster. Gambit also threatens an OHKO with Cleave if 3 of its allies has fainted. It isn’t too terrible of a matchup as if Gambit hard switches into it, Tbolt 2HKOs after spikes. Plus Hammer Arm can be teched for it.
Dragapult: Specs variants will OHKO with Draco, however it doesn’t like to eat a T-Wave, especially in its role as a lategame cleaner. Hex Pult is considerably better of a MU for it. Thundy threatens an OHKO with Tera Blast Ice, it threatens to remove its Boots, and threatens with priority. Thundy can also anti-lead Sash Pult sets since Hex only does 64-76% if burnt.
Great Tusk: Thundy-I outspeeds and one-shots Tusk with ease, either with Tera Blast Ice or G-Knot. It also can switch into one hit from Ice Spinner. Be mindful that +1 Spinner will OHKO this, so don’t bring it in vs Speed Booster sets.
Gholdengo: Ghold cannot be T-Waved by Thundy, but Thundy can 2HKO with Tbolt after a layer of Spikes while Ghold fails to OHKO back.
Kyurem: Specs and Boots Kyu can OHKO Thundy. Terastilizing here is not ideal since Ice Beam + Draco OHKOs anyways. If need be, Thundy can sack itself to Kyurem to para it. Depending on the team structure, Terastilizing to land a Knock can be crucial for removing Specs/Boots.
Raging Bolt: Rbolt is a common mon on HO and blocks T-Wave. Bolt has to be mindful though, since with a layer of Spikes, Tbolt + Tera Ice has a high roll to OHKO it. The HP EVs also lets Thundy live a Proto boosted hit at full if mandatory.
Roaring Moon: Without the first spread I listed, Moon has a high roll to OHKO Thundy while being immune to Prankster T-Wave. However Moon will often Tera, meaning you could position it to land a crucial T-Wave.
Volcarona: Entirely dependent on if it’s Tera Ground or not. If it is, congrats on giving it a free turn of setup. If not, Thundy can land a T-Wave and switch out because it lives a +1 Fiery Dance at full. Play at your risk.
Deoxys-S: Absolutely ruins it with paralysis, but has to be wary of LO Psycho Boost.
Enamorus: Lives a Moonblast, and threatens with Tbolt or T-Wave.
Gouging Fire: Can eat an unboosted Blitz/Crash, however it will be OHKOd by +1 or Proto. Sacking Thundy to get off a crucial T-Wave can be a game changer however, so assess the situation before committing to a sack.
Hatterene: Unaffected by T-Wave due to Magic Bounce, but the same can be said for Thundy itself. It does 1v1 it with Tbolt as Draining Kiss doesn’t heal enough. However Thundy will lose if it switches in.
Iron Treads: Forced to Tera vs Treads. Tera Ice Blast 2HKOs it, but Treads 2HKOs with EQ if it reads the Tera. However Treads is mostly used in the early game, so Thundy can be brought out later once it’s down.
Landorus-T: Lando doesn’t do much back unless it techs Rock Tomb or Smack Down. Tera Ice OHKOs easily and can Knock its Helmet off.
Ogerpon-W: Thundy survives an Ivy at full and gets off a Para. Tera Ivy will OHKO, but T-Waving it and forcing it to burn Tera to one-shot is favorable.
Primarina: Tbolt OHKOs Defensive and Offensive variants unless it is AV which can be Knock’d. Thundy can also eat a clutch hit.
Rillaboom: Thundy can cripple with Knock which also means it lives even a Tera Boosted Wood Hammer in the 1v1 matchup. Tera Ice can also kill it as Rilla doesn’t OHKO back with Tera Grass Glide.
Weavile: Weavile has to be mindful of strong Tbolt on the switch but its immune to T-Wave and easily OHKOs with Axel. Plus Weavile often pairs itself with pivots like Gking to get it in safely.
Zamazenta: Eats 2 BP unboosted and eats 1 ID boosted BP. Stone Edge is dropped more on Boots sets since Zapdos has fallen and Ice Fang hits targets like Gliscor, which Thundy can live. Tera Electric is also rare for this reason. So easy T-Wave, even if Zama is Lum.
Dragonite: The only common mon that can out prioritize Thundy. In the 1v1, Thundy can get off a T-Wave or Knock, but will get OHKOd by +1 Spinner or Tera Normal E-Speed.
Glimmora: Not worth T-Waving a lead, especially one with STAB base 130 SpA Power Gem. If you see this in preview, don’t lead with Thundy.
Heatran: Magma 2HKOs while Thundy doesn’t 2HKO standard Balloon Tran back. However it might win the 1v1 off the fact Magma Storm is a garbage move.
Iron Valiant: Thundy lives everything Valiant throws at it and gets off a T-Wave. Even if Valiant switches out, a Valiant that doesn’t outspeed Pult is much less scary than one that does. Bulkier spreads can even live a +2 Knock. Just be mindful of the possibility of Tera Dark.
Samurott-H: OHKOd by Thundy. Just don’t directly switch it into Samu and you’ll be fine.
Cinderace: Can T-Wave it and eat a Pyro at full. Also Thundy could remove its Boots.
Darkrai: LO Ice Beam will kill this thing and Thundy couldn’t T-Wave it.
Hawlucha: Lives a non-Tera boosted Acro or CC after an SD. Plus Thundy can directly switch into it to get off a T-Wave. Keep in mind that Lucha is more likely to be Tera Electric due to Bolt.
Iron Boulder: Forgot this thing existed. Mighty Cleave will erase it, but you could also make it cry with T-Wave.
Iron Moth: (see Volcarona)
Latias: T-Wave ruins this thing, while it doesn’t do jack shit back.
Serperior: Leaf Storm has a small chance to 2HKO Thundy. However it can switch into Glare and T-Wave if it’s not Tera Ground.
Aside from some bad matchups like Darkrai, Kyurem, and Weavile, (the other two bad mus are suicide leads) Thundy can either 1v1 and threaten a T-Wave, or even switch in once or twice vs most of the offensive metagame.
Section IV: Thundurus-I’s Teammates
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The Dual Genie combo. Lando can get up rocks and weaken physical hits with Intimidate, making it easier for Thundy to trade hits. Plus Lando forces a Tera vs Moon and can U-Turn on the Steel birds.
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What’s better than one Para spammer? 2 Para spammers. Pult benefits from priority T-Waves and Knock Off to cripple special walls.
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(my favorite pairing)
Thundy enjoys Spikes as it is naturally good at forcing switch ins and removing Boots. Samu forms a synergistic pairing with it, reminiscent of the Samu/Zapdos cores from Home and DLC1. Unlike Zapdos, Thundy has Knock, meaning Samu can slot in other options like Sacred, Encore, Flip Turn, SD, etc. Thundy also threatens its checks like Dozo and the Steel Birbs. (Also use CB Samu, the truly best set)
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On the more Balance and BO side, Gking can bring it in and set up Snow, which allows Thundy to potentially run Weather Ball for Ground types without having to burn Tera. It also can check Kyurem.
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A big benefiter of para is CM Primarina. It improves its matchup into Gking, Ogerpon, and Kyurem. Primarina also helps with the Weavile matchup.
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Another mon that loves slowed down mons is Kyurem, as it becomes scarier to deal with once shit is crippled by Para. Thundy also appreciates not needing to click Tera Ice Blast since it could just double into Kyu. Kyurem appreciates its ability to Knock Blissey and Gking.
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Did you notice that most of Thundy’s bad matchips also lose to Zama? Thundy can enable Ironpress sets with Knock and T-Wave while Zama can switch into stuff like Darkrai and Gambit. Plus Thundy sniping Lando and Gliscor with Tera Ice Blast means Zama can run other options like Roar or Heavy Slam over Sub.
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There is a saying, every Pokemon is a good partner with Kingambit. Thundy not only can pressure Great Tusk and Dozo, but Thundy can switch into Zama and threaten with T-Wave. Plus Jolly Gambit can outspeed Zama and Dragapult after they’ve been para’d which is insane. Thundy sacking itself also just gives Gambit a SO boost, so like I said, even Feebas is a good Gambit partner.
Section V: Where To Fit Thundurus-I?
Thundy-I fits on fast-paced teams that can’t fit multiple checks to everything, so they appreciate Thundy’s ability to click Prankster T-Wave along with the role compression it brings. Thundy’s biggest competitor is Raging Bolt, but its access to Knock Off makes it better into fatter builds. Thundy also has a better matchup into Valiant, Ironpress Zama, and Primarina. As shown by the last section, Thundy has great synergy with other offensive threats like Zamazenta, Dragapult, and
Section VI: Conclusion + Replays/Team
The stars have been aligning for Thundy to have some kind of niche in OU again. Koko is entirely absent from this gen, the tier is more offensive than the last, and Zapdos has dropped in usage. I think it is a good time right now to start experimenting with Thundurus-I. I’ve had some legitimate success using it. I have three replays of Thundy doing stuff.
(A game vs a low ladder player, but in this game, without Thundy, Lucha would’ve cleaned the whole team after Ghold sacrificed itself to keep hazards up. It T-Wave’d the Hawlucha and OHKOd it. Since Thundy lived the Acrobatics, it was able to click T-Wave on Serperior, letting me to clean up with Moth vs Scarf Enam and Serp.)
(Thundy took care of the Ting-Lu and got off a T-Wave on the Pult, letting Samu take the kill. With both of them gone, it opened up an Iron Moth clean that was only thwarted by the Tera Dark Ghold that Lando took care of anyways.)
(From my alt account and on a different team. Ironpress Zama normally cleans house after the Pult faints, however Thundy easily switches in and gets off a T-Wave. Even if they went into Gking, it would invite in Samu and Thundy can come back in on Zama. The replay also showcases its synergy with CB Samu.)
Dragonite•
Since I wasn’t lacking in offensive pressure, I decided to go with bulky DD, with 148 Speed, it outspeeds Wake after a boost, with the rest into bulk to help check Moon, Wake, and Oger. The speed felt unnecessary since you click E-Speed on Weavile, Ogerpon, and Moon anyways. The lack of Ice Spinner or F-Punch doesn’t really hurt since Thundy and CB Samu already apply tons of pressure to bulkier builds.
Great Tusk•
200 Speed EVs puts me above Adamant Dnite and Modest Tran. The original build had Lando and Tusk, but when I showed the team to Storm Zone, he suggested Dnite for the Wake matchup and suggested Tusk to be the Rocky Helmet wearing rock setter.
Samurott-H•
The original spread let it outspeed everything below 220 speed like Jolly Gambit, Defensive Ghold, Skarm, etc while dumping the rest of the EVs to jack up its surprisingly solid 90/80/65 bulk. This spread however, lets you outspeed Gliscor, Modest Bolt, and Modest Tran. The original build also used to have Flip Turn, but why would I need to pivot when I can click the funny spike move?
Thundurus-I•
As mentioned earlier, this spread outpaces Tusk and allows you to eat a Proto boosted Knock from Moon, non-Tera Cudgel, CB Rilla Wood Hammer, and Proto Boosted Rbolt. There are more hits it can live at full like +2 Valiant Knock, Black Glasses Gambit Sucker after 4 of its allies have fainted, and has a high chance to live a +1 Dnite Tera Normal E-Speed.
This team is also for those who hate Stall since CB Samu 6-0s most stalls. More on that on another post. I hope you enjoy this write-up since I’ve been enjoying using Thundy and this took a lot of drafts to finish.
Thank you for tuning it to this post, either cause you like Thundurus or you miss 2009 YouTube. The formatting is a little different, but it was done to make my posts easier to read and I wanted this write-up to have some extra flavor.
I personally am not too opposed to a teraless ladder in a vacuum, but many have given pretty solid arguments on why it not only would not be a good thing but also a detrimental thing. First of all, it sets a precedent, and if tera gets a separate ladder, who says that one day people won't be pushing for a hazardless ladder or something like that? And I get that tera is a mechanic and not a mon, but I feel like it's not that different. In the same way that you teambuild with Tera in mind, you teambuild with Kingambit in mind, you teambuild with sleep moves or no sleep moves in mind, etc etc... Saying "ahhh i would have won this match if Garg didn't tera water" is fundamentally the same thing as "ahhh i would have won this match if Kingambit wouldn't have reverse swept my team". If anything, many would argue with you that Gholdengo has a more pressing effect on the meta and teambuilding than Tera does, for that matter. I'm not saying your opinion ain't valid, I'm saying that the means don't justify the ends and much less in this scenario. There's barely anything to be won from a teraless ladder, people who enjoy tera will keep playing regular ladder and many won't take the time to experiment a different meta which is not guaranteed to be THE meta.
Well first of all, you can't claim you are not opposed and then later in your comment push for getting the discussion banned if a single poll doesn't go a certain way. It sounds like you are pretty opposed. And it also sounds like you would rather find all these reasons why we shouldn't even try than to actually try and look for the truth. Barely anything to be won is an unfounded statement, even if it may be your personal opinion, because it was already explained how a separate meta would be useful to compare.
Second, slippery slope is a well known logical fallacy. The insinuation that a Tera-less ladder, or really an OM is what we are talking about here, would lead to this happening for other things like hazards doesn't really have much bases. It's not just different because it is a mechanic and not a pokemon. It is literally THE generational mechanic. I don't know how many ways I have to say it isn't the same, but it just isn't the same.
Tera is tied to literally everything as a generational mechanic. Even in your Kingambit example, it probably isn't reverse sweeping teams nearly as often without Tera there to help it do so. So how do you know the person blaming Tera water Garg wouldn't also blame like Tera fairy Gambit? Tera's existence undoubtedly makes counterplay against mons like Gambit way more difficult. But if we suspected Gambit, it wouldn't be in both a Tera and non-Tera meta. It would be in whatever meta we choose to work with. And then if Tera did somehow later go, we would probably revisit mons like Gambit just as we did with Gliscor. It's all still completely different.
Furthermore, the idea of a hazardless ladder is completely unrealistic. If anything would get a suspect, it's Spikes and only Spikes. Nobody seems to have a problem with Webs, T-Spikes, or Stealth Rock. Before you say, "Ok, fine. a Spike-less ladder", let me just get ahead of that and point out that Spikes is not a generational mechanic. It's fundamentally different and been around for much longer. There was already a Gliscor ban because of spikes, though this was eventually undone. Gholdengo and/or Hamurott would likely hit a suspect first and/or the council would come in with a decision like they did with Sleep. You almost certainly wouldn't need a separate ladder to determine something like that.
The obvious difference between all your examples and Tera is that a separate ladder is fundamentally more useful for evaluating a generational mechanic like Tera than it is for other things. That's because Tera is tied to more in more different ways.
Well first of all, you can't claim you are not opposed and then later in your comment push for getting the discussion banned if a single poll doesn't go a certain way. It sounds like you are pretty opposed.
I think that, if it was up to me, I would have a teraless ladder/OM. I also think that, due to external factors and multiple reasons, it is not a good idea and further discussion of it is completely pointless and a complete waste of time.
I think that drugs and prostitution should be legal. I also think that due to the society we live in they should never be legal, and pushing for that is pointless.
I'm sorry for you if you don't have the critical thinking skills to analyze an issue from multiple perspectives.
And it also sounds like you would rather find all these reasons why we shouldn't even try than to actually try and look for the truth. Barely anything to be won is an unfounded statement, even if it may be your personal opinion, because it was already explained how a separate meta would be useful to compare.
As I explained, I find the idea of a teraless OM not only not good but also actively detrimental, as such you will understand that I find reasons to not do it in the first place.
Second, slippery slope is a well known logical fallacy. The insinuation that a Tera-less ladder, or really an OM is what we are talking about here, would lead to this happening for other things like hazards doesn't really have much bases. It's not just different because it is a mechanic and not a pokemon. It is literally THE generational mechanic. I don't know how many ways I have to say it isn't the same, but it just isn't the same.
It's the same, even if you don't want to admit it. I countered your point and you just said "no it isn't". And the slippery slope is a fact, I've heard the argument of spikeless or sleepless ladder so many times.
Tera is tied to literally everything as a generational mechanic. Even in your Kingambit example, it probably isn't reverse sweeping teams nearly as often without Tera there to help it do so. So how do you know the person blaming Tera water Garg wouldn't also blame like Tera fairy Gambit? Tera's existence undoubtedly makes counterplay against mons like Gambit way more difficult. But if we suspected Gambit, it wouldn't be in both a Tera and non-Tera meta. It would be in whatever meta we choose to work with. And then if Tera did somehow later go, we would probably revisit mons like Gambit just as we did with Gliscor. It's all still completely different.
What if Amoonguss was completely broken and we had no sleep and sleep ladders? Like, sleep is a mechanic, and sleep was treated just like a regular ban, tera is just an added bonus, another mechanic in the game.
Furthermore, the idea of a hazardless ladder is completely unrealistic. If anything would get a suspect, it's Spikes and only Spikes. Nobody seems to have a problem with Webs, T-Spikes, or Stealth Rock. Before you say, "Ok, fine. a Spike-less ladder", let me just get ahead of that and point out that Spikes is not a generational mechanic. It's fundamentally different and been around for much longer. There was already a Gliscor ban because of spikes, though this was eventually undone. Gholdengo and/or Hamurott would likely hit a suspect first and/or the council would come in with a decision like they did with Sleep. You almost certainly wouldn't need a separate ladder to determine something like that.
Completely missing the point and focusing only on one example. Cool.
The obvious difference between all your examples and Tera is that a separate ladder is fundamentally more useful for evaluating a generational mechanic like Tera than it is for other things. That's because Tera is tied to more in more different ways.
I guess agree to disagree. I just felt like giving my two cents on what a teraless ladder implies in a non-biased way and provide context for previous discussions, and you're painting me as if I'm the tera lord and believe that running Clef Hatterene Gambit RBolt GFire Dirge constitutes a monofairy team.
This is why I believe discussion on teraless ladder is absolutely pointless, we run in circles and don't end up talking about what actually matters when considering a teraless ladder, which is due process. If you want precedent on how shit turns out, check the Gen 6 UU no scald ladder kerfuffel. Everything that people say it's going to happen with an alternate ladder has already happened in the past. We have had threads dedicated to discussing the merits of tera and gallons of ink have been spilled on the subject. I'm frankly tired of coming here and seeing people discussing what to ban next and how to ban it and why they're right and the rest of us are morons. Shit is going to change but we gotta live in the meanwhile. Let's discuss the actual meta ffs. More Morkal posts about underrated sets and more Heatranator posts on what they're playing with in ladder and less bad faith blabber to try to impose an outcome.
Trust me, they will find the most obscure song to put in the suspect thread, like for example I found a song called "Don't talk about it", which idk what it sounds like but the title speaks for itself.
