Resource SV Ubers Viability Rankings

[Pigbeeef]

Returned to the tier recently and wanted to make some nominations.

S -> A+
Should not be in the same tier as the bikes.

A -> B+/B
Extremely fraudulent mon. Takes your Arc slot, weak to hazards, lets Mirai in for free and hits like a wet paper bag when sun is up. Ladder is obviously not the most accurate representation of the metagame, especially considering how dead it is atm, but it didn't even crack top 20 in usage last month. Far too niche for the ranking it's currently at and deserves to be lower.

B- -> C
C -> B-
Clod is forced to click recover every turn, which is way too passive for even stall. Gliscor is a better hazard setter and SpD bird is a better Ogre/Mirai switch in (once you tera it). Blissey, while limited to stall, is actually viable in that archetype, able to hit the field without losing all momentum.

C- -> C
C -> C+
Skarm should not be under Mola, it provides a lot of utility (takes knocks, sets spikes, rocky helmet chip) by comparison.
Corv is also good, pressure is a really strong ability but there's very few mons you actually end up needing to PP stall, taunt on Gliscor usually tends to be enough and I'd rather have spikes than pressure. It can serve as a pivot so that makes it viable on more teams than Skarm, but imo that should result in both moving up a tier rather than Skarm staying down.

C -> C-/UR
Passive, outclassed as a TSpiker, and serves as a free switch for NDM. Has much lower usage than half of D rank since DLC2 dropped.

UR -> C+
Daddy garg has basically one role, whipping out his belt for Ho-Oh, but it fills a unique enough niche that it's worth ranking. It's not something that fits on every team (IDef Arc is better at checking Caly and Kyub and also takes on NDM, but you need to give up your Arc slot for it). I can't justify anything higher than C+, but it's a legit great mon that absolutely deserves to be rated over crap like Arceus-Grass or Great Tusk.

While it is true that necrozma dusk mane is definitely not on the same level as korai and mirai in terms of viability, I still think it deserves a rank of at least S- for its ability to check zacian-c, calyrex-ice and normalceus with its defensive dragon dance sets, it is also a great check to deo-A, which isn't seeing much use due to NDM. It's ddance sets are potent wincons after a few dances, and setting them up is a piece of cake after its checks have been removed or with some surprise tera. this mon also has quite a few sets outside of dragon dance, such as my personal favorite, Trick Room. prism Armor allows this thing to set up for free In front of gliscor, and it can also eat a flare blitz from koraidon with only full HP investment, and can even stall out the sun with the increased healing from morning sun with the defensive sets (Nah bro Ill never use moonlight bruva). its great at luring in Ho-Oh and clicking knock off, which can help out heavily vs fatter teams. it also walls most eternatus, unless it is special attack invested ones under the sun with its typing and prism armor. It can also threaten arc fairy, but it doesn't like twave or wisp very much. if anybody noticed that I left out some stuff, I probably didn't notice, please remind me.

for waterceus, it is quite reasonable, it is a free switch to miraidon, Kyogre likes using it as an entry point and more, but it has the merit of being a wisp user that threatens the fire tera users that try to dodge wisp. But uh yeah its walled by eternatus, has competition with Kyogre and gets cucked by the sun. it still has the very useful trait of easily countering most variants of necrozma dusk mane and calyrex-ice, so that's nice. but otherwise I agree it should be in B+ or sth.

finally, somebody spoke out about the dead ladder...

 

[NotDake]

S -> A+
Should not be in the same tier as the bikes.

I would like to ditto this. I really don't think anyone can make a case for NDM being a  bad mon, however, it just isn't comparable to Korai and Mirai. Despite not being as one-dimensional as some of the other mons in the A+ tier, like Ho-oh and Zacian, I just feel like there needs to be some sort of distinction between it and the true S tier mons of the tier. It was the seventh most used mon in the UPL for crying out loud, it's just not nearly as splashable as most other top tier mons in the format and thus, simply not deserving of being an S tier.

C- -> C

Skarm has very much proven itself to be a great addition for stall teams, being arguibly the most consistent way to beat NDM without risking a crucial Knock or, even worse, using a trash mon like Dondozo. Other than that specific niche in stall this mon does nothing so I feel like C is a fitting placement.

B- -> C
C -> B-

Hard disagree. Clod is indeed very passive and hits like a wet noodle, but the ability to sponge Water moves from he who shall not be named is insanely valuable. I agree that Tera Grass Ho-oh is overall a better check to both of the premiere special attackers in the tier, but the value of having Tera open is good enough to justify this mon. Clod is trash on stall tho, it's relegated to a Balance mon. Blissey meanwhile... eh... probably C+ I'd say? The mon doesn't really do anything outside of Stall and even then, it is always one Psyshock away from instantly crumbling. The Mon is fine enough for what it does but it is so pathetic without Ho-oh around to salvage its weaknesses.

 

[hardy56]

​

Dialga-O D-->C+

Dialga-O has proven to be much stronger than you think it is due to being able to counter the would-be counters with either its tera type or move coverage and it can tank hits very well if you do some slight investment into bulk and if you misplay via going into Koridon while its about to fire a dragon pulse or stay in and it turns into tera flying you have lost a full team member who is very strong and other leads like Glimmora don't really like taking either a flash cannon or dragon pulse from Dialga-O

 

[Pigbeeef]

Dialga-O has proven to be much stronger than you think it is due to being able to counter the would-be counters with either its tera type or move coverage and it can tank hits very well if you do some slight investment into bulk and if you misplay via going into Koridon while its about to fire a dragon pulse or stay in and it turns into tera flying you have lost a full team member who is very strong and other leads like Glimmora don't really like taking either a flash cannon or dragon pulse from Dialga-O

Dialga-O has no reliable recovery, does not have the explosive power of korai / mirai, and a tera is very obvious as you could just u turn and scout out the tera. Yeah, you can technically call every single play by the opp and win, but nobody can do that and any reasonably legit team can win every single game if they do call every single turn. Steel dragon is great yes, but its simply not good when koraidon is just everywhere, and if you want a powerful special breaker, we have miraidon. regular dialga has a niche in AG where its a special attacker capable of 1v1ing miraidon and has a much better MU into ekiller, much more common when caly is around but thats AG, tbh, dialga-o is bad, and its never gonna get up on the VR rankings unless there are major metagame shifts like a potential miraidon ban, or you or somebody else backs it up with tournament results or high Elo. even if mirai gets banned I doubt its gonna be good.

 

[hardy56]

Dialga-O has no reliable recovery, does not have the explosive power of korai / mirai, and a tera is very obvious as you could just u turn and scout out the tera. Yeah, you can technically call every single play by the opp and win, but nobody can do that and any reasonably legit team can win every single game if they do call every single turn. Steel dragon is great yes, but its simply not good when koraidon is just everywhere, and if you want a powerful special breaker, we have miraidon. regular dialga has a niche in AG where its a special attacker capable of 1v1ing miraidon and has a much better MU into ekiller, much more common when caly is around but thats AG, tbh, dialga-o is bad, and its never gonna get up on the VR rankings unless there are major metagame shifts like a potential miraidon ban, or you or somebody else backs it up with tournament results or high Elo. even if mirai gets banned I doubt its gonna be good.

Its true Dialga-O has no reliable recovery and doesn't have the highest damage output in the tier, but the tera is very readable argument applies to every pokemon ever. And Dialga-O is not perfect, and I understand its possible flaws and just because it doesn't have high ratings via ladder/tournament usage, but that doesn't mean it ain't strong, thats more due to nobody wanting to try using it to get any reasonable results.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Its true Dialga-O has no reliable recovery and doesn't have the highest damage output in the tier, but the tera is very readable argument applies to every pokemon ever. And Dialga-O is not perfect, and I understand its possible flaws and just because it doesn't have high ratings via ladder/tournament usage, but that doesn't mean it ain't strong, thats more due to nobody wanting to try using it to get any reasonable results.

It’s just outclassed, the best niche it has is a trick room setter on MU fishing trick room teams.

Want a powerful dragon type special attacker? We have Miraidon, it’s also not restricted to a specific item and hits harder as well.

 

[hardy56]

I understand that Dialga-O isn't really the best pokemon in ubers and thats fine, but he isn't completely outclassed or meant only for trick room teams. The reasons Dialga-O isn't completely outclassed comes down to coverage which is stuff that Miraidon wishes it could have like flamethrower, earth power, ice beam, etc. and the item Dialgo-O is restricted to is actually pretty good boosting the power of his admittedly good stabs by 20% allowing dragon pulse to be 102 power and flash cannon being 96 power. And the speed tier for Dialga-O is not to the point of trick room but not so awkward to where its not good in or out of trick room. And its true that Miraidon hits harder, but im not saying Dialga-O should be the new Miraidon or on every team known to mankind.

 

[Taka]

I understand that Dialga-O isn't really the best pokemon in ubers and thats fine, but he isn't completely outclassed or meant only for trick room teams. The reasons Dialga-O isn't completely outclassed comes down to coverage which is stuff that Miraidon wishes it could have like flamethrower, earth power, ice beam, etc. and the item Dialgo-O is restricted to is actually pretty good boosting the power of his admittedly good stabs by 20% allowing dragon pulse to be 102 power and flash cannon being 96 power. And the speed tier for Dialga-O is not to the point of trick room but not so awkward to where its not good in or out of trick room. And its true that Miraidon hits harder, but im not saying Dialga-O should be the new Miraidon or on every team known to mankind.

Honestly, even disregarding the other box legends and strong mons in the tier, I feel like base dialgas item slot and similar statline outclasses Dialga-O.

 

[hardy56]

Honestly, even disregarding the other box legends and strong mons in the tier, I feel like base dialgas item slot and similar statline outclasses Dialga-O.

Reg dialga is worse than dialga-o due to less special defense and the fact that those 20 points base dialga has are put into a stat it doesn't use as much as its other offensive stat and honestly nobody runs life orb on dialga at all.

 

[Sami]

Reg dialga is worse than dialga-o due to less special defense and the fact that those 20 points base dialga has are put into a stat it doesn't use as much as its other offensive stat and honestly nobody runs life orb on dialga at all.

Could you give an example where that 20 SpD actually matters because majority of the time it doesn't make a difference, and the reason Dialga is never seen with Life Orb is because Dialga is never seen in general.

Even then, Choice Specs + Trick Dialga is mostly better than Dialga-O anyways, with Dialga + Shuca/Chople Berry and Stealth Rock being a decent offensive setter than can hold its own ground versus Koraidon and Arceus-Ground rather than being forced immediately unlike Dialga-O.

 

[hardy56]

The example of the 20 SpD actually matters every time you attack dialga-o with a special attacking move its a small difference mind you. Also, Dialga-O's speed stat is too high for trick room and specs only works on paper due to losing all the coverage which is one of its strong points and who runs dialga as a stealth rock setter when glimmora exists for that purpose also tera flying can shut down both of them if used at the right time which yes I know it can be predicted, but anything a pokemon can do is able to be predicted.

 

[LHF]

The example of the 20 SpD actually matters every time you attack dialga-o with a special attacking move its a small difference mind you. Also, Dialga-O's speed stat is too high for trick room and specs only works on paper due to losing all the coverage which is one of its strong points and who runs dialga as a stealth rock setter when glimmora exists for that purpose also tera flying can shut down both of them if used at the right time which yes I know it can be predicted, but anything a pokemon can do is able to be predicted.

Respectfully I think a lot of dialogue has been given to a pokemon that otherwise really does not deserve it.

Dialga-Origin is bad for a number of reasons, most of which have been pointed out already. But one thing I will also point out is that Dialga-Origin is literally less bulky than Dialga with Assault Vest. Considering that Dialga must equip the Adamant Crystal to achieve Origin forme, this is just an embarrassing waste of space.

Its true Dialga-O has no reliable recovery and doesn't have the highest damage output in the tier, but the tera is very readable argument applies to every pokemon ever. And Dialga-O is not perfect, and I understand its possible flaws and just because it doesn't have high ratings via ladder/tournament usage, but that doesn't mean it ain't strong, thats more due to nobody wanting to try using it to get any reasonable results.

Using the "tera is readable on every pokemon" argument is not a viable one because you have to consider how valuable tera is as a resource. If your gameplan requires you to use Dialga-Origin to accomplish anything of merit, that is a tera option you are then losing on your other bikes, Ho-Oh, Necrozma(which is the main reason I'm writing this post tbh) or another mon of value that might seriously appreciate it later down the line.

I'm an ardent believer that you're supposed to use your tera to either establish insane early momentum that your opponent cannot turn back against you, or use it to turn the tables back on your opponent in a pinch. Just because a Pokemon CAN work in a specific context does not mean that it is ultimately a wise decision to do so because those are resources that you could have instead poured into a stronger pokemon to net you better results more consistently. This is also why having dialogues about the lower tiered pokemon in the VR is rarely productive without clear data, calcs, and replays that show the validity of your argument - otherwise it becomes abstract theorymonning.

If you want to play with Dialga more consistently in an SV setting I've heard rumblings that it's better in AG as a role compression tool to address Miraidon + EKiller whilst also resisting Calyrex's psychic moves. But that's AG, and not Ubers - and from where most people are standing, Dialga nor Dialga Origin are really making a splash in this meta. So I would recommend SV AG or realistically DPP Ubers(an old fan favorite) if you want to use Dialga where it's clearly a top 2 or even top 1 mon. I'm all for creativity and wanting to play with your favorite pokemon, but sometimes it's better to just go where they are already strong rather than trying to make fetch happen.

But enough of that and onto the real reason I wanted to post.

I would like to ditto this. I really don't think anyone can make a case for NDM being a  bad mon, however, it just isn't comparable to Korai and Mirai. Despite not being as one-dimensional as some of the other mons in the A+ tier, like Ho-oh and Zacian, I just feel like there needs to be some sort of distinction between it and the true S tier mons of the tier. It was the seventh most used mon in the UPL for crying out loud, it's just not nearly as splashable as most other top tier mons in the format and thus, simply not deserving of being an S tier.


Skarm has very much proven itself to be a great addition for stall teams, being arguibly the most consistent way to beat NDM without risking a crucial Knock or, even worse, using a trash mon like Dondozo. Other than that specific niche in stall this mon does nothing so I feel like C is a fitting placement.

While it is true that necrozma dusk mane is definitely not on the same level as korai and mirai in terms of viability, I still think it deserves a rank of at least S- for its ability to check zacian-c, calyrex-ice and normalceus with its defensive dragon dance sets, it is also a great check to deo-A, which isn't seeing much use due to NDM. It's ddance sets are potent wincons after a few dances, and setting them up is a piece of cake after its checks have been removed or with some surprise tera. this mon also has quite a few sets outside of dragon dance, such as my personal favorite, Trick Room. prism Armor allows this thing to set up for free In front of gliscor, and it can also eat a flare blitz from koraidon with only full HP investment, and can even stall out the sun with the increased healing from morning sun with the defensive sets (Nah bro Ill never use moonlight bruva). its great at luring in Ho-Oh and clicking knock off, which can help out heavily vs fatter teams. it also walls most eternatus, unless it is special attack invested ones under the sun with its typing and prism armor. It can also threaten arc fairy, but it doesn't like twave or wisp very much. if anybody noticed that I left out some stuff, I probably didn't notice, please remind me.

These are both very salient points but I would side more with Pigbeeeef in believing that NDM would be better represented with an S- rank as opposed to an A+ mon. With the versatility the pokemon offers through an astonishingly high number of movesets(something Korai and Mirai both also have) and an ability to address a key number of top tier threats and force the metagame to adapt to it(something an S tier should realistically be doing, again, much like the bikes), it just doesn't feel right to put it lower.

We can agree that Necrozma is definitely not on the level of the bikes, but what is? And is that really a reason to kick it down to A+ when we could simply establish an S- to denote the slight difference in their metagame influence? I could accept it given that A+ is still full of great threats, but if our goal is to have a viability ranking that reflects the threat level of a pokemon then NDM feels just a cut above them in terms of how well it must be accounted for defensively and offensively. I would not agree with anything lower than A+, but I would think that S- makes more sense for the above reasons and I'd encourage others to consider this as a talking point.

 

[Insolence]

These are both very salient points but I would side more with Pigbeeeef in believing that NDM would be better represented with an S- rank as opposed to an A+ mon. With the versatility the pokemon offers through an astonishingly high number of movesets(something Korai and Mirai both also have) and an ability to address a key number of top tier threats and force the metagame to adapt to it(something an S tier should realistically be doing, again, much like the bikes), it just doesn't feel right to put it lower.

We can agree that Necrozma is definitely not on the level of the bikes, but what is? And is that really a reason to kick it down to A+ when we could simply establish an S- to denote the slight difference in their metagame influence? I could accept it given that A+ is still full of great threats, but if our goal is to have a viability ranking that reflects the threat level of a pokemon then NDM feels just a cut above them in terms of how well it must be accounted for defensively and offensively. I would not agree with anything lower than A+, but I would think that S- makes more sense for the above reasons and I'd encourage others to consider this as a talking point.

While it is true that necrozma dusk mane is definitely not on the same level as korai and mirai in terms of viability, I still think it deserves a rank of at least S- for its ability to check zacian-c, calyrex-ice and normalceus with its defensive dragon dance sets, it is also a great check to deo-A, which isn't seeing much use due to NDM. It's ddance sets are potent wincons after a few dances, and setting them up is a piece of cake after its checks have been removed or with some surprise tera. this mon also has quite a few sets outside of dragon dance, such as my personal favorite, Trick Room. prism Armor allows this thing to set up for free In front of gliscor, and it can also eat a flare blitz from koraidon with only full HP investment, and can even stall out the sun with the increased healing from morning sun with the defensive sets (Nah bro Ill never use moonlight bruva). its great at luring in Ho-Oh and clicking knock off, which can help out heavily vs fatter teams. it also walls most eternatus, unless it is special attack invested ones under the sun with its typing and prism armor. It can also threaten arc fairy, but it doesn't like twave or wisp very much. if anybody noticed that I left out some stuff, I probably didn't notice, please remind me.

I disagree. NDM's influence on the metagame is similar to mons such as Ho-Oh, Zac, or Kyogre. This is reflected in ladder usage: at 1630, it has less usage than Zac, and only slightly beats it at 1760 despite fitting on many more team styles, meaning many teams are foregoing it for other options.

Well, maybe the ladder isn't the most accurate view at our metagame, let's look at tours. NotDake already pointed out its low usage rate in UPL, but it's equally underwhelming in SCL (only 2 weeks so far, so it might be low sample size), where it only appeared in 5 out of the 20 teams used so far. While it is still an extremely powerful option, its lowering usage rate speaks to the many ways people have discovered to check this mon. It has many powerful sets, but each one has clearly defined counterplay and limitations.

Even against offense - the team style it's most effective against - options like Air Balloon Kingambit and Tera Blast Zac have risen in popularity, being viable options that also increase your chances versus NDM. Having recently spent time building fatter teams, there are plenty of mons such as the metal birds or defensive arc forms which check nearly every offensive NDM set, while also checking many other physical attackers. Defensive/utility sets are significantly weaker than they were last generation without options like TWave, and recovery options having less PP greatly hurts in longer games. I don't feel like teambuilding against it requires any more consideration than the other threats in A+, and certainly nowhere near either of the bikes.

 

[Shadow Crystal]

Idt anybody will argue with you if u post some credible replays of dialga-o doing something and why it was more advantageous than miraidon or base dialga even in that scenerio. Rn its just blatant theory moning and wont lead to anything. I could just say lets rank delibird to C+ because its spikes immune gets spin and set spikes abd can freeze dry chip tinglu down... And it will have same result


Anyways on actual noms.
A+ ->S-

Mon is goated for a reason and it does so much game to game consistently. Fantastic user of tera and checks half the meta while being annoying to switch into. With dusk mane proposed to S- I dont see why ho-oh is kept out aswell. Its clearly better than the rest of A+ mons but worse than dusk mane. Either move them both S- or move bikes upto S+ to showcase their dominance and keep Ho-Oh and dusk mane a tier apart

 

[Pigbeeef]

Idt anybody will argue with you if u post some credible replays of dialga-o doing something and why it was more advantageous than miraidon or base dialga even in that scenerio. Rn its just blatant theory moning and wont lead to anything. I could just say lets rank delibird to C+ because its spikes immune gets spin and set spikes abd can freeze dry chip tinglu down... And it will have same result


Anyways on actual noms.
A+ ->S-

Mon is goated for a reason and it does so much game to game consistently. Fantastic user of tera and checks half the meta while being annoying to switch into. With dusk mane proposed to S- I dont see why ho-oh is kept out aswell. Its clearly better than the rest of A+ mons but worse than dusk mane. Either move them both S- or move bikes upto S+ to showcase their dominance and keep Ho-Oh and dusk mane a tier apart

dittoing this, even tho it lost many of its good moves like defog toxic and twave, its still a fantastic glue Mon that can easily check many meta threats such as korai NDM and Zac, along with various support arcs. rocks are actually less common this gen imo, and knock off as well, since nowadays its mostly on NDM. Regen just makes this thing unkillable. it also got the stall destroying sub offensive set, cool set fr.

 

[OreoSpeedruns]

still on break from serious play but in the meantime here's some noms

Rises:

to A+
Easy to fit on teams and does super well against offense. The sheer amount of Tera Ghosts on offense with Pokemon like Koraidon, Miraidon, and Kyogre running it is testament enough to its impact.

to A
Webs picking up and NDM being fraud is favorable to Caly-I, on top of being good on and against offense. It speaks to its strength that the best and most splashable check on offense is itself.

to A

Edit as of 10/13/24: Webs are broken. These guys are A rank MINIMUM.

Webs have been picking up and Ghosty is a big part of that. Spinblocking Treads and checking Caly in one slot is really good for webs considering those two are big threats to webs, and Ghost STAB is nice in a meta with only two good Ghost resists. (ting is ass. it does not count.)

to B+/A-
As much as I hate this mon and what it stands for I can't deny it does fine in the current meta. Good role compression with """""checking""""" Mirai and spin. Also it has no competition.

to C/C+
Still not exactly great BUT with ndm being fraud and Ghost STAB spinblocking Treads and being hard to resist in this meta there's definitely more of a reason to use this mon.

Drops:

to A
Basically everything Insolence said above. I would actually say the worse offense mu alone constitutes an A rank rather than A+, however fat stuff is ass which is why I'm not nomming it lower. It's not bad ofc because it's NDM but it really isn't anywhere close to top 3.

to B-/B
This mon is incredibly overhyped. The meta has become simply too offensive for Gliscor to keep up. Treads spins on it, Mirai and Kyogre smash it, Ho-Oh uses it as Sub fodder, it's bad vs Taunt (ESPECIALLY against Taunt Groundy or Ghosty bc it can't even threaten Knock), etc. Plus I think Spikes BO is also really overhyped, you'd rather use Lando and/or Treads on BO tbh, just using rocks and committing to smashing immediately with the bikes or Kyogre or something.

to C+ and UR respectively
These guys are shit. Always have been. Complete momentum sinks, don't check Mirai that well, and only really fit on balance which is utter garbage. Ting maybe can fit on offense but you'd much rather use Lando or Treads instead of a complete momentum sink like Ting. (I personally think Ting is unviable and should be unranked but I know y'all won't agree with me so)

to B/B+
I don't think this mon is bad, just hard to fit. Balance is unviable, so Waterceus mostly being a balance mon really hurts its viability. HOWEVER. I would say it fits on a few specific bulky offenses, and on those few teams it does fine. Again, not bad, just hard to fit.


some other super quick drops
to B
to B-
to B-/C+
to C+
to C+
to C+
to C
to C
to D
to D
to D
to UR
to UR

 

[Princess Autumn]

Similar vein to Oreo's post above, gonna highlight a few suggestions from building and laddering over the past few months, full thoughts in the spoiler though:

Necrozma-DM: S -> A (3), still a great mon but with balance archetypes falling out of fashion, it seems outclassed by Zacian-C and Ho-Oh in the roles it used to fill
Arceus-Fairy: A+ (3) -> A+ (1), a nitpick of sorts but it feels noticably better than Groundceus and Ho-Oh
Zacian-C: A+ (4) -> A+ (2), similar to above, its an insanely splashable mon with a ridiculous speed tier
Ting-Lu: A- -> B, this hurts to write but balance borders on unviable right now, Ting is great on balance but being great on an unviable playstyle means relatively little
Landorus-T: A- -> A, he's finally better than Gliscor, both support sets and Scarf alike, Lando is a great backbone piece to offense
Arceus-Ghost: B- -> A (2), the only one I'll bold because I feel very strongly about this. Arceus-Ghost absolutely thrives off of the offense meta that has developed, being able to support hazard stack offense while also being a great offensive threat in its own right. Both the AOA set and more support orientated (DTail, Taunt, Wisp etc) do great jobs on teams and if Fairyceus wasn't so stupid itself this thing would be even higher
Iron Treads: B- -> A-, I fucking hate this thing but it would be foolish to pretend it hasn't seen absurd usage for a mon of its calibre and truthfully that's for a painfully good reason, it gives offense removal and a Miraidon check, enough said really
Giratina-O: B+ -> C, can we stop pretending this thing is usable, it's fucking terrible as a defogger and is mediocre at best offensively
Kyurem-B: B -> A-, it's a nicher pick for sure but it kinda just absolutely decimates anything remotely bulky, and abuses all Ground-types in the tier. It has so many free entry points and can snowball with Scale Shot or nab an extra kill with a well timed Sub
Lunala: C -> D, this thing feels strictly worse than NDW, it's a tera hog that's forced to Meteor Beam after Agilitying or just die because it does painfully weak damage
Zekrom: C-> D, who has ever loaded this
Zamazenta: UR -> C-, see my post here
Unranked Great Tusk, Toxapex, and Ditto

Full Personal VR, S -> A- ranked

S Rank
S

Koraidon
Miraidon

A Rank
A+
Arceus-Fairy
Zacian-C
Ho-Oh
Arceus-Ground
Kyogre

A
Landorus-T
Arceus-Ghost
Necrozma-DM
Arceus

A-
Calyrex-I
Iron Treads
Kyurem-B
Gliscor
Arceus-Water
Eternatus

B Rank
B+
Chien-Pao
Deoxys-S
Glimmora
Kingambit
Ribombee

B
Deoxys-A
Grimmsnarl
Flutter Mane
Orthworm
Ting-Lu

B-
Arceus-Dark
Iron Bundle
Clodsire
Rayquaza

C Rank
C+
Arceus-Grass
Groudon
Hatterene
Skeledirge

C
Alomomola
Blissey
Giratina-O
Mewtwo
Sneasler
Zamazenta-C

C-
Chi-Yu
Corviknight
Necrozma-DW
Reshiram
Skarmory
Zamazenta

D Rank
Annihilape
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Arceus-Steel
Archaludon
Baxcalibur
Deoxys
Dialga
Dialga-O
Espathra
Giratina
Gouging Fure
Kyurem-W
Landorus
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Ogerpon-H
Palafin
Palkia
Palkia-O
Regieleki
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Solgaleo
Spectrier
Terapagos
Ursaluna-BM
Urshifu
Urshifu-R
Zacian
Zekrom

 

[LouisIX]

I am writiing All these rubbish just to say this

Spoiler

I feel great sense of accomplishment when I see people say BO/Balance is bad

Modern Webs Trio

Ribombee B -> A

Webs is just broken and the bee is the only webs setter in the tier. Carrying the entire SV on its own.
By the way I am so sorry to bring up scarf ribombee. Take your time guessing what bee I am kek.

supporting - SCL w1 Kate vs False

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubers-791141
Very unlucky game for kate but you see how a possible scarf ribombee just turn the table of ribombee-glimmora lead match-up in the game.

Arceus-Ghost B- > B+

Spinblocker and is taking advantage on the vanishing Tinglu and Clodisre. In short, bulky and relatively fast ghost which can do everything besides SDing.

Iron treads B- > A-


I was saying this mon is good back in 2023 btw with sash endeavor. I am going to say this mon is good now with LO Adamant 4 attack.
Overheat? who the **** cares

Eternatus A- > A/A+ (last)

Antoher big punnisher to Choice-locked Koraidon after Basculegion gone. Fitting multiple team style including webs, common hazards HO and Screen as well. Amazing raw bulk to take advantage of defensive Tera, and is hitting hard and annoying by spamming sludge bomb and flamethrower to everyone. Also a tricky phazer as well. Prob the only disadvanatge of using this is the fact that you cannot fit it easily alongside bikes as this will makes your team full of dragons. But honestly speaking bikes are just non-sense so I dont value this disadvantage a lot.

Kyurem-B B >B+
Thanks to the dropping of NDM it is getting better environment but still it is naturally slower and required a lot of support from teammate or it just need to get a good mu. Situational, but a good tera abuser nonetheless.
Will get tricked by ribombee so no A for me.

Drops:

I am too lazy to write this

 

[Pigbeeef]

Similar vein to Oreo's post above, gonna highlight a few suggestions from building and laddering over the past few months, full thoughts in the spoiler though:

Necrozma-DM: S -> A (3), still a great mon but with balance archetypes falling out of fashion, it seems outclassed by Zacian-C and Ho-Oh in the roles it used to fill
Arceus-Fairy: A+ (3) -> A+ (1), a nitpick of sorts but it feels noticably better than Groundceus and Ho-Oh
Zacian-C: A+ (4) -> A+ (2), similar to above, its an insanely splashable mon with a ridiculous speed tier
Ting-Lu: A- -> B, this hurts to write but balance borders on unviable right now, Ting is great on balance but being great on an unviable playstyle means relatively little
Landorus-T: A- -> A, he's finally better than Gliscor, both support sets and Scarf alike, Lando is a great backbone piece to offense
Arceus-Ghost: B- -> A (2), the only one I'll bold because I feel very strongly about this. Arceus-Ghost absolutely thrives off of the offense meta that has developed, being able to support hazard stack offense while also being a great offensive threat in its own right. Both the AOA set and more support orientated (DTail, Taunt, Wisp etc) do great jobs on teams and if Fairyceus wasn't so stupid itself this thing would be even higher
Iron Treads: B- -> A-, I fucking hate this thing but it would be foolish to pretend it hasn't seen absurd usage for a mon of its calibre and truthfully that's for a painfully good reason, it gives offense removal and a Miraidon check, enough said really
Giratina-O: B+ -> C, can we stop pretending this thing is usable, it's fucking terrible as a defogger and is mediocre at best offensively
Kyurem-B: B -> A-, it's a nicher pick for sure but it kinda just absolutely decimates anything remotely bulky, and abuses all Ground-types in the tier. It has so many free entry points and can snowball with Scale Shot or nab an extra kill with a well timed Sub
Lunala: C -> D, this thing feels strictly worse than NDW, it's a tera hog that's forced to Meteor Beam after Agilitying or just die because it does painfully weak damage
Zekrom: C-> D, who has ever loaded this
Zamazenta: UR -> C-, see my post here
Unranked Great Tusk, Toxapex, and Ditto

Full Personal VR, S -> A- ranked

S Rank
S

Koraidon
Miraidon

A Rank
A+
Arceus-Fairy
Zacian-C
Ho-Oh
Arceus-Ground
Kyogre

A
Landorus-T
Arceus-Ghost
Necrozma-DM
Arceus

A-
Calyrex-I
Iron Treads
Kyurem-B
Gliscor
Arceus-Water
Eternatus

B Rank
B+
Chien-Pao
Deoxys-S
Glimmora
Kingambit
Ribombee

B
Deoxys-A
Grimmsnarl
Flutter Mane
Orthworm
Ting-Lu

B-
Arceus-Dark
Iron Bundle
Clodsire
Rayquaza

C Rank
C+
Arceus-Grass
Groudon
Hatterene
Skeledirge

C
Alomomola
Blissey
Giratina-O
Mewtwo
Sneasler
Zamazenta-C

C-
Chi-Yu
Corviknight
Necrozma-DW
Reshiram
Skarmory
Zamazenta

D Rank
Annihilape
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Arceus-Steel
Archaludon
Baxcalibur
Deoxys
Dialga
Dialga-O
Espathra
Giratina
Gouging Fure
Kyurem-W
Landorus
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Ogerpon-H
Palafin
Palkia
Palkia-O
Regieleki
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Solgaleo
Spectrier
Terapagos
Ursaluna-BM
Urshifu
Urshifu-R
Zacian
Zekrom

Nah as a Kyurem black lover myself, I can safely say that kyurem isn't anywhere near A-, its kinda only good with loaded dice on HO and that makes it a terahog and rocks weak Mon. its not defining on HO like glim or Ribombee either so I disagree, B+ is the best imo.

 

[LBN]

Seems people are making noms, so I'll do the same.

UR -> C-
Mimicking Nyx's nom, this thing having a speed stat higher than the bikes gives it an edge over Zama-Crowned, while still retaining some positive aspects. Not much to really say it's a slightly frailer Zama-Crowned but can outpace boots miraidon I think that speaks for itself.

A+(4) -> S- (2)
This thing is very nice. Whenever you want to use a good arceus form and not fairy, this is the mon you turn to in order to block scale shots, no questions asked. Tera flexibility is underrated, Flying Fighting and even Stellar have seen use, while tech options like Sub, Trailblaze, and even Protect can be used to good effect. Sure it can flail sometimes into things like NDM, (I'll get to that FRAUD later), but it's qualities are blatantly apparently. Though I think one Pokemon is better within S-

A+(1) -> S- (1)
Yes, I think Ho-oh is top 3, fight me. This thing is excellent man you'd think losing Twave and defog would hurt it even a little but naw this thing is still putting in triple doubles on every single game. Sub Ho-oh is excellent, and I've used EQ BB sub ho-oh multiple times, including vs Rhmn in HPL iirc, and it does wonders since truthfully, everything you'd fish for Sacred fire burns are running tera fire anyways, and EQ/BB does what you want in the damage department while being able to catch Miraidon off guard. Sub Tera flying has also smashed that dachsbun stall that's been going around, (I'll also get to that later), and It's qualities are shown in every singular game.

S (3) -> A+ (4)
Yes, I think all of Kyogre, Arceus-Ground/Fairy, and Ogre are better than this thing. It's not bad I mean its a dusk mane, but the spike of Lando-T, things like Kingambit, and people realizing that blitzing into NDM with Koraidon is a waste of time it's just fallen off. People have turned to Lando-T to check Zacian-C in the short term more often, and while NDM is still good obviously, I don't think what it provides is anywhere near as much as what its competition in A+ provide.

A+ (5) -> A+(2)
I think this thing is actually better than Arc-Fairy. Sets like Custap Berry have been doing phenomenal every game it comes, and absolutely preys on Ho-ohs. Scarf sets have been seeing a slight uptick, and it's not a bad mon to have since Koraidon can only come in so many times. Twave spreading, Boots, beyond the Bikes it's probably the most dangerous mon in the tier, and it has less matchups it's not useful in compared to Arc-fairy, where it can sometimes fail to do much beyond checking Korai, which is something Ogre can also do, atleast to a small extent.

A- -> A (2)
Do I even need to say anything on this one, Scarf and Helmet Lando is an excellent piece for offense, and chipping Scarf koraidon mostly for free, or atleast as free as u can get, is an incredible trait to have. NDM, Ho-oh (kinda), Zacian-C, it does all those and that's not where it ends. Scarf is a great measure vs Webs, easily the most favored archetype of HO around. It's really really good, and I swear on its qualities.

A- -> A (3)
I think this thing is superb, as kekker said its great at punishing choiced Koraidons and the NDM falloff was not passed up on by this thing. Being a grounded poison is incredible utility and tspikes can be threatening vs the right builds. Now if we can just talk about getting dynamax cannon to be 16 PP we can be in business.

D (prolly it's UR rn tho) -> C-
It's a second Koraidon for HO teams, and Burning Bulwark can mess with revenge killing attempts from scarf Koraidon and Miraidon after a DD. Tera Fairy is incredibly comfortable, and after what Richard did to Inder with it, I think we can give an attest to its potential.

-> A (2) -> A (5)
I don't actually get the hate for this one. Arc-Water is an incredibly sturdy mon vs physical attackers even for offensive teams, its probably the single best check to Caly-Ice in the tier, checks Korai, Ho-oh, NDM, etc. Letting in Miraidon can be annoying but like, it's not impossible to chip Miraidon down even with boots, things like Helmet Ting Lu can let dmg stick on it nicely. It's also an underrated CM pick that beats Ho-oh comfortably, I don't agree with its noms to drop it at all, only reason its going lower is because Lando-T, Arc-Ghost and Etern are better.

B- -> A (4)
Yes, it's a steep jump but its long overdue. Arc-Ghost has been a standout pick for awhile now, mainly taking off during UPL but its shown itself to be an incredibly pick for HO, and offense alike. Bulkier Arc-Ghosts are certainly possible, with things like Wisp ala BW2, and CM sets have a variety of moves to pick as a last. ID, Grass knot, Dragon Tail like Skyiew vs Kate in UPL playoffs, and more. Its not bad as an emergency Koraidon check with the fighting immunity, and its stab is neutral vs most of the tier barring Ekiller Ting and Kingambit. It's really fucking good.

-> A-
Yeah i hate this faker treads on principle like everybody else but its shockingly and painfully useful. The above noms have basically said what I'd say myself. Webs is the most common and effective HO, and it deserves to be ranked than the other HO bots. Speaking of HO goons, Kyurem-Black is definitely improved greatly with the NDM falloff, and with creative uses of Tera it can absolutely snowball through teams if it so desires. Just to make life easier, I'll say my personal VR order at the end.

(Lunala to C+)
Tangent, who is dawn wings and since are people gassing it? If Ting lu is becoming fraudulent I'd rather just slap Scarf on a Modest Lunala and click moongeist till it dies. Sure, it's slightly weaker but atleast my speedtier isnt dogshit and my ability isn't objectively worse. No seriously who is prism armor for, are those wicked Crunch Koraidons giving you guys trouble now is that the issue here? If you want to OTR, be my guest and use Dawn wings. But for every singular other purpose, Lunala is just better. It's not even that weak either slap tera ghost on it and threaten teams that arent using Ting or Spdef Arc-Grounds with a Moongeist endgame.

Tangant number 2 am I really the only one who remembers the war crimes mashing commited in UPL with this thing? Forget defogging Poltergeist rips ass and I'm tired of pretending this thing isn't nice with it. Mashing brought it 3 times and it was going triple double each time. Sneak is obviously a nice utility but I think people are treating it like a defog bot when thats just not what its best at. Like, LOOK at THESE are we using the same mon :sob:

UR -> C-
How many times has that Dachsbun stall won? Too many, thats how many. This glorified pastry dish has seen multiple uses across tours like HPL, EPL, PTPL etc and it usually walks home with the win, and this thing is a part of that. Turns out doing nothing but checking an S rank on every team is actually a good enough trait to rank it who knew. Since ik yall want replays hey here go like my winpost vs skyiew i could use the interacts. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hpl5-week-5.3751341/post-10272022

B -> C+
Who uses Orthworm bro this mon sucks. Flutter mane is the biggest letdown in any and all games, and its a damn shame because i'd like to have another option to use a fairy for but it just doesnt get kills enough to warrant slotting it over Zacian. All that bundle slander should be directed at this thing. You can say alot of things about bundle but atleast that thing clocks into work and your getting what you payed for. Bundle hate is forced btw keep in B+

B+ -> B
This mon feels ass. Half its draw is Tspikes and spin, but it honestly never gets up tspikes from the lead slot unless the opp is bad, and if you aren't leading with it well thats its own can of worms, and if theres an Eternatus you might aswell be playing 5v6 so like. Your removal being blocked by the Zacian-Crowned on every HO ever also makes webs a sick joke too. Chien-Pao is good, but its not B+ good. It lacks pretty much any defensive utility, but its strong as hell and has some sauce that makes it worth using every so often.

UR -> C-
Last but not least, the coolest paradox pokemon yeah FUCK valiant u heard me. A webs bot that plays like eternatus with agility meteor beam, but with more crucially, resists Zacians stab combo + CC. If yall want replays I used it vs entro I aint even gonn link it you know the series go find it urself its 4am.

For the visual learners and for the mons i couldnt be assed to write a paragraph for like skeledirge, mewtwo and terapagos.

Tier List

 

[Gross Sweep]

I have been playing a fair amount of Ubers lately, and by that I mean I have been spamming webs on the ladder. I started with the Aberforth sample team as a baseline for the archetype. After a little bit I started looking at tour replays for ideas to borrow (steal), and I pretty quickly noticed that webs has a pretty rigged structure in the current meta. At least from a mons perspective, there is still some cool flexibility set wise. Now that's a lot of unnecessary background info for me to just echo some web nominations, but I wanted to give an explanation for why I have a picture of 15 Webs teams all neatly lined up. Also I'll give an anti-shout out to FC and Raph369 for messing with the symmetry. Also I threw the pic together yesterday, so if I missed some prominent team brought to an important game somewhere down the line I apologize.

Hide

I am all for Ribombee getting a bump. I have seen recommendations for it to go to B+ as well as A-, currently I would probably find myself leaning towards the A- side of things because it has a pair of good set options (Scarf and Focus Sash) on top of setting Sticky Web. Normally I would be on the lower side of things since I usually look down on mons with one redeemable quality, like a terribad mon who sets a weather that happens to be very strong. However, I feel like Ribombee is actually useful outside of just setting up a web and dying. Basically it boils down to Ribombee enables a strong strategy, which in and of itself makes it viable, and has actual use after Sticky Webs T1 in a good amount of games making me inclined to inch it up the VR a bit more.

Looking back to the picture, usage between Ghost and Ground Arceus has been pretty split and is driven a lot by the choice of the 6th slot and what coverage moves you put on some other team members. That said I have preferred Ghost variants due to its ability to help with Calyrex Ice Rider who is otherwise really troublesome for Web teams if it finds the turn to click TR. Also the tier doesn't have very many good switch-ins to Ghost Judgement, and bulkier CM sets eat against a lot of teams in general right now. I probably lean a bit more towards B+ or A- Arceus Ghost since it faces so much competition from the other forms to fit on teams, whether that be Ground on Webs teams or other types on other team types. Though I am not sure if competition for team slot with other Arceus forms is taken into consideration on this VR, so that last point may be mute and a higher placement would the be deserved if that's the case.

 

[Tal]

I took a bit of a break recently and i feel like the metas shifted a bit since i've been gone so here are some noms

Rises
Landorus-T A- > A
Lando is a necessary glue mon on so many teams that stops them falling apart defensively. Rocky Helmet sets are fantastic and can be thrown at basically any physical attacker to slow them down, and is a much better fit on BO/Offence since u-turn stops it being a complete momentum sink like ting lu. Taunt and Stone Edge are both needed so it can have a bit of 4MSS (useless into ho-oh or can be set up on by ndm/cant prevent hazards). At the cost of a bit of bulk, scarf sets can fill a lot of the same roles of being a defensive pivot while also revenge killing mirai/zacian/etern/etc. and can also catch a surprise KO occasionally.

Calyrex-I A- > A
Caly-I is a fantastic anti-offence mon and a great tool for balance teams or non-webs offence to deal with other offensive teams. Most of its good checks are limited to slower more balanced teams, so the more offensive the meta trends, the beta Caly becomes. while it lacks a lot of moveset diversity (its really hard to stray from SD + TR + Glacial + HH) a mix of different tera like fire, ground, and ghost can throw some of its traditional checks like korai or zacian off

Ribombee B-> A-
Webs teams are fantastic now and they have been for a while, and theyve seen a lot of use and success on ladder and in tours. Any good team needs to have some sort of gameplan from webs. Ribombee has enough diversity between Trick Scarf sets to beat glimm, quiver dance sets to force early chip, and pounce stun spore sets which can make it difficult to lead against. Sub Zacian can be a bit of an issue sometimes, but its possible to play around and still too niche to invalidate ribombee/webs

Arceus-Ghost B- > A-
Benefits a lot from the shift in popular ground types (i.e. less ting-lu and clodsire and more landorus and treads). Its only a soft check to Korai (resists 1/3 stabs, similar to waterceus) so it cant be you're only check and can necessitate something like ho-oh/kyogre/zacian/lando-t alongside it. Bulky sets are solid cheks for Caly-I/NDM/Ekiller/Zacian, while offensive CM sets are a great progress maker with unresisted STAB and good coverage. I wouldn't go as high as A just because not being able to use a different arc form can be a big issue so webs w/ ghostceus normally ends up a bit too weak vs mirai and forces you into stuff like play rough zacian

Kyurem-B B > B+
Everyone knows what this does, its a solid breaker that loves webs, hates hazards, hogs tera, and lacks defensive checks. It deserves a slight bump though since its picked up in usage and has carved out a proper niche in the meta with how dominant webs have become

Iron Treads B- > B+
One of two viable forms of hazard removal which is becoming more important with the rise of webs/glimm offence and its a great mirai check too (although it has to watch out for the growing popularity of overheat). Also has some good utility on top of that (knock, volt switch, stealth rocks). Its not without its flaws though; it struggles with lando-t and can sometimes have a hard time picking between AV and spdef (AV lacks role compression since it can't run rocks and spdef is extremely weak hitting).

Skeledirge C > C+
I think this has been a bit underrated for a little while now and with Zacian hitting its peak and surging ahead of NDM in usage skeledirge finds itself in good spot. Its only a soft check to korai since 5 hit scale shot is a 2HKO, but it completely shuts down zacian and often forces a tera out of caly/ndm/kingambit. Has some issues with letting ho oh, mirai, and kyogre in, but can still force progress against the latter 2 with wisp + hex. Ultimately deserves to be slightly above the other stall mons since unlike them it has a wider niche and can fit on some balance teams

Espathra Unranked > C-
This might be controversial but it can be scary on screens or with electric seed and benefits a lot from NDM and ting-lu dropping off in usage.

Drops
Necrozma-DM S > A+
I agree with what other people are saying about how NDM has fallen off a bit but A is too low because of how much NDM can really pick and choose its checks. +1 228+ speed NDM gets the jump on the bikes and picks up OHKOs when they try and revenge, bulky DD sets up on non-taunt Lando, +1 Adamant can 2HKO defensive arc, TR can reverse sweep webs/HO, etc. There's so much versatility that changes what gameplan your opponent should make in response, like should they go ho-oh and risk stone edge? or mirai and risk jolly eq? or wisp waterceus and risk adamant lum?, and this is before you get to its defensive utility, switching into zacian/caly-I/Ekiller and misc. dragon moves. Theres obviously issues with the bikes running rampant and you have to be prepared with a second zacian check if using offensive NDM, but I think its still a great mon and that its going a bit under the radar at the moment because people stopped experimenting with different sets

Gliscor A- > B
Great when matching up vs balance or stall but just lacks too much bulk vs offence and is too slow at making progress. Very much a soft mirai check since it loses to cm/lo. Lando-T just fits way better on most teams, hits harder, and has better physical bulk to switch into zacian/ekiller/kingambit/ndm/etc. Sub ho-oh and KyuB both rising a bit in popularity also makes it tougher on gliscor

Chien-Pao B+ > B
Suffers from being far too frail and having no defensive utility, unlike a lot of the other hard hitting mons in the tier that can pivot into one or two hits. Theres also a lot of good checks on most teams that completely shut it down like zacian, ho-oh or fairyceus. Also hates hazards (both webs and rocks), but boots sets don't hit hard enough and its hard to find a free turn to SD. Sitting at such a congested speed tier doesn't help either when you really want adamant to secure some KOs (e.g. vs Ho-oh with SD LO)

Rayquaza B > B-
Ray hits hard but so does korai/mirai/etern and theyre all much faster, and arceus is better at SD + ESpeed. Sash can be nice vs offence and not being affected by webs means there is some reason to use it. Its not really a terrible mon, its just mostly outclassed by the other dragons in the tier

Arceus-Dark B- > C+
Its main use was as a defensive check to NDM/Caly-I/Ekiller, but its not very splashable and needs a lot of support. NDM dropping a bit shrinks its niche and theres just too many matchups that it just does nothing (loses to all the top tier stuff like korai, mirai, zac, ho-oh, etc.). Other arceus forms also give it a lot of competition, especially ghostceus which fills most of the same niche while also being a soft-check to koraidon, spinblocking, and being less passive

Orthworm B > C
Orthworm sees basically no usage and does practically nothing if it cant get the shedtail off, and taunt lando-T, whirlwind Ho-Oh, taunt arceus and just good positioning makes it really hard to do that, but it can occasionally pull off something good and has very small niche on screens

Chi-Yu C- > D
Way too slow, practically playing a mon down vs offence, hates hazards which are everywhere. Its only useful niche is trying to mu fish vs stall but even then just use another stallbreaker (e.g. taunt mirai) and stall is bad rn anyway

 

[RichardMillePlain]

I took a bit of a break recently and i feel like the metas shifted a bit since i've been gone so here are some noms

Rises
Landorus-T A- > A
Lando is a necessary glue mon on so many teams that stops them falling apart defensively. Rocky Helmet sets are fantastic and can be thrown at basically any physical attacker to slow them down, and is a much better fit on BO/Offence since u-turn stops it being a complete momentum sink like ting lu. Taunt and Stone Edge are both needed so it can have a bit of 4MSS (useless into ho-oh or can be set up on by ndm/cant prevent hazards). At the cost of a bit of bulk, scarf sets can fill a lot of the same roles of being a defensive pivot while also revenge killing mirai/zacian/etern/etc. and can also catch a surprise KO occasionally.

Calyrex-I A- > A
Caly-I is a fantastic anti-offence mon and a great tool for balance teams or non-webs offence to deal with other offensive teams. Most of its good checks are limited to slower more balanced teams, so the more offensive the meta trends, the beta Caly becomes. while it lacks a lot of moveset diversity (its really hard to stray from SD + TR + Glacial + HH) a mix of different tera like fire, ground, and ghost can throw some of its traditional checks like korai or zacian off

Ribombee B-> A-
Webs teams are fantastic now and they have been for a while, and theyve seen a lot of use and success on ladder and in tours. Any good team needs to have some sort of gameplan from webs. Ribombee has enough diversity between Trick Scarf sets to beat glimm, quiver dance sets to force early chip, and pounce stun spore sets which can make it difficult to lead against. Sub Zacian can be a bit of an issue sometimes, but its possible to play around and still too niche to invalidate ribombee/webs

Arceus-Ghost B- > A-
Benefits a lot from the shift in popular ground types (i.e. less ting-lu and clodsire and more landorus and treads). Its only a soft check to Korai (resists 1/3 stabs, similar to waterceus) so it cant be you're only check and can necessitate something like ho-oh/kyogre/zacian/lando-t alongside it. Bulky sets are solid cheks for Caly-I/NDM/Ekiller/Zacian, while offensive CM sets are a great progress maker with unresisted STAB and good coverage. I wouldn't go as high as A just because not being able to use a different arc form can be a big issue so webs w/ ghostceus normally ends up a bit too weak vs mirai and forces you into stuff like play rough zacian

Kyurem-B B > B+
Everyone knows what this does, its a solid breaker that loves webs, hates hazards, hogs tera, and lacks defensive checks. It deserves a slight bump though since its picked up in usage and has carved out a proper niche in the meta with how dominant webs have become

Iron Treads B- > B+
One of two viable forms of hazard removal which is becoming more important with the rise of webs/glimm offence and its a great mirai check too (although it has to watch out for the growing popularity of overheat). Also has some good utility on top of that (knock, volt switch, stealth rocks). Its not without its flaws though; it struggles with lando-t and can sometimes have a hard time picking between AV and spdef (AV lacks role compression since it can't run rocks and spdef is extremely weak hitting).

Skeledirge C > C+
I think this has been a bit underrated for a little while now and with Zacian hitting its peak and surging ahead of NDM in usage skeledirge finds itself in good spot. Its only a soft check to korai since 5 hit scale shot is a 2HKO, but it completely shuts down zacian and often forces a tera out of caly/ndm/kingambit. Has some issues with letting ho oh, mirai, and kyogre in, but can still force progress against the latter 2 with wisp + hex. Ultimately deserves to be slightly above the other stall mons since unlike them it has a wider niche and can fit on some balance teams

Espathra Unranked > C-
This might be controversial but it can be scary on screens or with electric seed and benefits a lot from NDM and ting-lu dropping off in usage.

Drops
Necrozma-DM S > A+
I agree with what other people are saying about how NDM has fallen off a bit but A is too low because of how much NDM can really pick and choose its checks. +1 228+ speed NDM gets the jump on the bikes and picks up OHKOs when they try and revenge, bulky DD sets up on non-taunt Lando, +1 Adamant can 2HKO defensive arc, TR can reverse sweep webs/HO, etc. There's so much versatility that changes what gameplan your opponent should make in response, like should they go ho-oh and risk stone edge? or mirai and risk jolly eq? or wisp waterceus and risk adamant lum?, and this is before you get to its defensive utility, switching into zacian/caly-I/Ekiller and misc. dragon moves. Theres obviously issues with the bikes running rampant and you have to be prepared with a second zacian check if using offensive NDM, but I think its still a great mon and that its going a bit under the radar at the moment because people stopped experimenting with different sets

Gliscor A- > B
Great when matching up vs balance or stall but just lacks too much bulk vs offence and is too slow at making progress. Very much a soft mirai check since it loses to cm/lo. Lando-T just fits way better on most teams, hits harder, and has better physical bulk to switch into zacian/ekiller/kingambit/ndm/etc. Sub ho-oh and KyuB both rising a bit in popularity also makes it tougher on gliscor

Chien-Pao B+ > B
Suffers from being far too frail and having no defensive utility, unlike a lot of the other hard hitting mons in the tier that can pivot into one or two hits. Theres also a lot of good checks on most teams that completely shut it down like zacian, ho-oh or fairyceus. Also hates hazards (both webs and rocks), but boots sets don't hit hard enough and its hard to find a free turn to SD. Sitting at such a congested speed tier doesn't help either when you really want adamant to secure some KOs (e.g. vs Ho-oh with SD LO)

Rayquaza B > B-
Ray hits hard but so does korai/mirai/etern and theyre all much faster, and arceus is better at SD + ESpeed. Sash can be nice vs offence and not being affected by webs means there is some reason to use it. Its not really a terrible mon, its just mostly outclassed by the other dragons in the tier

Arceus-Dark B- > C+
Its main use was as a defensive check to NDM/Caly-I/Ekiller, but its not very splashable and needs a lot of support. NDM dropping a bit shrinks its niche and theres just too many matchups that it just does nothing (loses to all the top tier stuff like korai, mirai, zac, ho-oh, etc.). Other arceus forms also give it a lot of competition, especially ghostceus which fills most of the same niche while also being a soft-check to koraidon, spinblocking, and being less passive

Orthworm B > C
Orthworm sees basically no usage and does practically nothing if it cant get the shedtail off, and taunt lando-T, whirlwind Ho-Oh, taunt arceus and just good positioning makes it really hard to do that, but it can occasionally pull off something good and has very small niche on screens

Chi-Yu C- > D
Way too slow, practically playing a mon down vs offence, hates hazards which are everywhere. Its only useful niche is trying to mu fish vs stall but even then just use another stallbreaker (e.g. taunt mirai) and stall is bad rn anyway

agree with all of this basically, good post.

 

[bumboclaat]

Newish to the tier, so just one nom. FC mentioned people not using Ditto which surprised me and I was shocked to see it at C-. It is definitely way better than that. I'm not experienced enough in the tier to know exactly where it should go other than up, but my gut instinct is C+/B- territory minimum. This meta is way too offensive for it to be sitting all the way down in C-.

C- -> C+/B-

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Editing in some more reasoning b/c I realized if someone made this nom in the NDUbers VR I doubt I'd give it much weight. Saying offense good and not providing replays is not a convincing argument so lets delve a bit more into it.

As mentioned above and elsewhere, I'm quite new to the tier. This suspect was the first time I've played since home dropped and the ladder is wholly unrepresentative of whatever the actual metagame is (presumably the VR will be updated post SCL). I do however, watch most tournament games and think that my admittedly surface level understanding of this metagame is sufficient to make at least a nomination for Ditto to rise with confidence.

So yeah Ditto generally gets stronger in higher powered metas due to generally having a fairly good matchup against more extreme playstyles. I say generally because different metagames and threats will have varying levels of vulnerability and punishes to Imposter. Unsurprisingly, Ditto doesn't appear to overly punish much of the defensive metagame. It isn't deadweight, but its matchup against the offensive threats is the main reason to put it on a team.

Ditto isn't a slap this on your team and you've cteamed offense, but it goes a hell of a long way as the biggest offensive threats don't improof themselves well and are also absurdly difficult to handle defensively. Lets start with the offensive threats Ditto doesn't handle well. As a whole it seems safe to say that Arceus formes improof themselves relatively well. Calm Mind formes, particularly those with Taunt do not care about Ditto and Bulk Up Arceus isn't too scared of it either. Notably Arceus-Ghost more or less blanks it. If defensive Kyogre existed (everything I've seen seems to be choiced, boots, or cutsap) that could be added to the list as well, but relying on Rest for recovery in a Miradon metagame is rough.

Offensively however, this metagame is really damn condusive to enabling Ditto to do its thing. The biggest threats require tera to improof themselves and often (at least from what I've seen in tournament and assuming the strategy dex is reasonably up to date) fail to do so even with tera. SV Ubers is incredibly strained defensively (it'd take more bans than are reasonable to change this imo) which only amplifies Ditto's threat. Furthermore, it appreciates Koraidon and Miraidon providing the ability to pivot which helps immensely with tera mindgames.

I havn't really seen Tera Fairy in tournament nor is it listed on the strategy dex. Without Tera Fairy or Steel any Koraidon clicking SD will be revenged by +2 Scale Shot regardless of Tera and is OHKOed by Flare Blitz making that a safeish click as well. Ditto needs tera itself to reliably deal with Choice Scarf sets, but Tera Fairy is the only one listed on the Dex. Tera Ghost would cover this + SD Ekiller as neutral Scale Shot only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO, but I don't know if that is used. It straight up destroys SD Korai and is at worst good into Choice Scarf.

This is still a good matchup, but not quite as good as Koraidon or Zacian-C due to Tera Fairy being commonish and Draco drops preventing Ditto from reverse sweeping. Substitute also exists, but is rare. Despite this Miraidon remains pretty vulnerable to Ditto. If it teras out of its Electric-type resist it gets blown up by Electro Drift and Draco Meteor still blows up Miradon even if it is neutral with slight chip. Miraidon so commonly running a pivot move helps a lot as well for maintaining momentum.

Some combinations of moves and tera prevent it from being complete Ditto food, but it is dire. Tera Fire means +2 CC needs some chip to OHKO Tera Fire and people have been running Substitute in tournament. Facing Scarf Zacian-C is a nightmare and is often going to force a tera.

This is the best against Ditto so far, but it doesn't take a ton of chip to find itself in revenge killing range. It doesn't love Ditto, but isn't free Ditto food either.

Generally good against Ditto and is so slow that even if Ditto wins it is forced out after.

Depends on the set, but Ditto can prevent offensive sets from running away with games.

This is a pretty interesting interaction due to how Ditto can force sequences. It seems to be a necessary evil on a lot of teams and having the option to remove hazards is quite nice.

Yeah so to conclude, I'm really surprised Ditto is so low. It has a great matchup against the top of the top and forces a lot of sequences, particularly with tera that are favourable to the Ditto user. I'm assuming there are legitimate reasons why Ditto is C- such as splashability or only fitting onto weaker playstyles, but Ditto's strengths seem way too strong to be in the technically viable shitmon territory. The good, but heavily limited in terms of splashability of B-/C+ seems like a much better fit. It being C- to begin with makes me fairly sure there are a lot of factors I'm overlooking.

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Not a Nom

Miraidon may go it may not, but if there arn't any further bans I wouldn't be surprised to see this end the generation in A-/B+ territory. It seems to run into a lot of the same issues as in NDUbers where defensive sets are incredibly prone to being overwhelmed while offensive sets suffer from some combination of getting blown up too easily by offensive mons, 4MSS, and taking too long to get going. Over there it retains a high rank as it is very good wallbreaker with SolgZ which it doesn't have here. That at least makes it a very strong wallbreaker where the speed is less of an issue. I think it is pretty likely that Necrozma-DM ends up in a place where everything just ends up being not enough despite being great on paper.

 

[cruisinconnor]

I think people are really sleeping on Ditto. I toss it on the 6th slot on most my teams and I can't count the amount of times I've reverse swept with it. Even on high ladder...

I feel like most people toss Gambit at the tail end of their teambuilding, but Ditto is so much better imo. Even if it's a Gambit 1v1 at the endgame, you outspeed either low kick or sucker punch.