AAA Almost Any Ability

[April]

Big post time! I'm writing this all in one sitting, so expect this to get a bit ramble-y, but I've got a lot of thoughts on the metagame as it is now as well as the direction we to take it in.

Please keep in mind that this is not an overall ranking that I think is applicable to the metagame at large. This is my own perception of the metagame and how often I, only me, Gimmicky, am to use a specific Pokemon. This does not line up with my actual VR nominations on the last slate.

Roaring Moon is by far the best Pokemon in the metagame right now. Nothing really comes close to it. Roaring Moon does quite literally everything you could ask it to be; it's your RegenVest pivot, it's your obligatory fast-strong-hard-to-kill offensive guy, it's your setup sweeper. This can fit on, without much exaggeration, pretty much any team structure. In my opinion, you need a damn good reason to not be using Moon, and oftentimes you want to use it anyway in a different role. This is the closest thing to a mandatory Pokemon in the tier right now.

In terms of my own building I think Roaring Moon is next to mandatory. RegenVest's ability to defensively check all of (depending on their set) Gholdengo, Zapdos, Deoxys-S, Azelf, Desoland Fires, the offensive Electric-types, and even acting as a temporary check to physical attackers like Ogerpon formes and Ceruledge is so hard to pass up on. Choiced Sets, meanwhile, can still check plenty of the above while putting immense pressure on the opponent and opening up other breakers. I've also grown incredibly fond of offensive Assault Vest sets on my BO teams, taking the best of both worlds. This set rewards aggressive prediction in a way nothing else can really replicate; I've gone on record saying that RegenVest rewards good play while Magic Guard just reduces the punishment for bad play, and that applies tenfold here. I also think there's plenty of merit in some other abilities, namely Soundproof and Purifying Salt. The first is extremely notable for turning Roaring Moon into a bonafide counter to both Scream Tail and Volcarona, even after boosts, while also greatly annoying Alluring Voice Manaphy and Prankster-less Parting Shot Pecharunt. The second, meanwhile, turns Roaring Moon's status weakness into a complete status immunity, removing the most common form of counterplay to it.

So yeah, Roaring Moon is just about mandatory on any team I build unless I go out of my way to exclude it, but do I think it's a healthy presence? Jury's still out on that. Anyone in the councilcord knows that my main issue with the tier right now is that, with so many Pokemon that are all of bulky, strong, and fast, it becomes a struggle to justify anything else, making the tier feel samey and stuck in an oscillating cycle where one offensive Pokemon dominates the metagame, then another one that beats the first one dominates the metagame, then another one that beats the second dominates the metagame, and so-on. Roaring Moon may not be the root cause of that cycle, but it's inarguably a key component of it: For a time, Roaring Moon was the one of the controversial Pokemon in large part because of it's great matchup into Gholdengo, Ogerpon-W, and Deoxys-S making people spam it. Now, we're seeing the same thing happen with Zamazenta, where it's great matchup into the common Roaring Moon-centric BO teams making it easily spammable and thus controversial.

I don't think that makes Roaring Moon (or any of the other fast-strong guys, maybe barring Zamazenta) broken in a vacuum, but in the context of the actual metagame, it creates a strange combination of the metagame always feeling same-y but never feeling like it settles. I feel like there's two paths we can go down for the future of the metagame: either we make peace with this cycle of oscillating offense and try to find competitiveness within it, or we completely snuff out the cycle, banning the most powerful offensive threat every few months until the metagame truly feels unconstricted. I'm personally in favor of the first. If the most problematic member of this cycle (Zamazenta) ends up banned, I don't think it's going to fundamentally get rid of this cycle, but I do think it's going to make the whole thing a lot more stomachable and generally make the metagame feel fun again.

Whew, that was a long tangent. Time to speedrun through the rest of the VR.


I don't think I have to explain in too much detail why any of these three are good, especially on balance/BO. Great Tusk has ludicrous versatility, consistently beats most Roaring Moon (which I think is the best Pokemon, remember), and is the tier's only form of removal that feels consistent. Pecharunt has sheer Defense, amazing resists, and useful anti-offense utility in the form of Prankster Destiny Bond and Toxic. Intimidate is also the easiest way to check Zamazenta, which is super useful while it's currently the dominant threat. Zapdos brings an excellent combination of offensive power and defensive utility. Outside of the typical Primordial Sea, Fluffy, Unaware, and Intimidate are all hugely underexplored defensively while Choice Specs is an absolute sleeper pick.


Not kidding. It's almost become a bit of a meme in Smogcord/the OM Room how much I spam AV Crown, but it's working out pretty well for me so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I very strongly think that some form of bulky Roaring Moon + AV Hadron Crown is one of the single most spammable cores on BO. They cover each other's weaknesses almost perfectly; Iron Crown checks or counters the special attackers that threaten Moon the most such as Scream Tail, Primarina, and Latios, while Roaring Moon covers the Gholdengo, Fire-types, and Sandy Shocks that are prone to breaking through Iron Crown. While neither of them are individually a perfect check to Deoxys-S or Zapdos, when you have both of them at your disposal, these two become exponentially easier to handle. Iron Crown is no slouch offensively either; you can afford to invest almost fully into Special Attack (what are you really gaining by going fast?), allowing you to achieve crazy stuff like 2HKOing RegenVest Swampert and Manaphy and threatening a direct OHKO on most offensive Pokemon with Tachyon Cutter, Focus Blast, or a psuedo-STAB Volt Switch.

This Core in particularly truly exemplifies the best traits of both of these Pokemon, simultaneously being some of the most dangerous offensive threats on the team they're on while also playing defense surprisingly well until momentum is back in your favor, a pretty easy ask given their powerful pivoting moves. This core rewards aggressive play like nothing else while also not immediately crumpling on the backfoot. If you're thinking, "this core looks a bit slow", Crown's Hadron Engine is amazing for rewarding unconvential Surge Surfer users like Ogerpon-W, Ceruledge, or Garchomp, immediately shoring up the Speed issue... or you can just use Scarf Moon. Or both of these at once!

All of this on it's own would be enough for me to put Hadron Crown in the high end of A-tier on my personal VR, but what really sells it is that it is in no way limited to these sets. Choice Scarf Psychic Surge, Specs Tinted Lens, Double Dance, Immunity Calm Mind are all perfectly viable options depending on the playstyle.


I'm not explaining why Swampert is good.


I'm not explaining why Corviknight and Gholdengo are good.


I'm going to be voting Ban on Zamazenta. I'd elaborate more on it, but I honestly think I said enough about it in my Roaring Moon section. If you want to read a bit more about it, though, this post by Siamoto as well as the follow-up post by Betticus are both excellent and argue my points pretty well. Not more to add, this guy is problematic even outside of the oscillating cycle of offense it's part of.


Meowscarada is a bit of a weird pick to be as high as it is, but honestly, this mon goes absolutely crazy when, like me, you prefer to use bulky Roaring Moon. STAB Knock Off off of good Attack and an excellent Speed tier will never be bad, especially when you also have Flower Trick and a powerful U-Turn. Triple Axel is my preferred fourth move, being able to hit things like Landorus-T, Zapdos, and Moltres hard in a single slot without giving Great Tusk a free switch-in afterwards is awesome.


I was clowned on for saying this guy was broken and told to just let it settle in properly. Well, a few months later, I admit it isn't a tier-1 banworthy threat, but I also don't find it a particularly healthy presence either. I don't think it needs to be banned right now. Most people would have it placed a lot higher, but it's kind of hard to fit on the teamstyles I like to play. If I can afford to use it, it always brings results, but there's just... no utility here. Even Meowscarada feels like it has more utility with options like Trick and being able to always fit Knock Off.


I'm not explaining why RegenVest waters are good. I just think Swampert is better than both in that role. Both are notable for some pretty great offensive sets though.


I hated on this guy for a while, but Azelf is really cool once you start diving deeper into it's movepool. There's a lot of good stuff here; Energy Ball for Swampert, Shadow Ball for Scream Tail, and even useful utility like Thunder Wave and Taunt. Some of these options are a bit hard to fit, but they're all worthwhile. I'd also like to bring attention to Nasty Plot, which essentially allows Azelf to be a far stronger Deoxys-S at the cost of some Speed... but it outspeeds base 110 guys anyway! Scarf Psychic Surge is always going to be the best set, but I've explored Focus Sash Nasty Plot sets to great success.


By far the best of the Ogerpon formes. With Waterpon, you can sometimes just win on the spot if you SD at a good time. Unlike other SD fishers like Iron Boulder or Chien-Pao, though, you bring actual defensive utility! Good bulk and good resistances as well as, if Primordial Sea, completely blanking Desolate Land Fire-types means it's pretty easy to bring this onto the field and wreak havoc. Waterpon also has surprising flexibility; I've used all of Regenerator, Surge Surfer, Immunity Ability and Prankster to some degree of success, with especially Surge Surfer fitting amazingly onto bulky offense teams as a powerful cleaner and sweeper since you can afford to run Adamant.

From this point on, I'm only going to be drawing attention to Pokemon I have relatively high or low compared to general consensus.


I've been a defender of this guy for a while. Adaptability/Download sets are amazing hazard setters, Swords Dance sets with Sword of Ruin, Adaptability (again), or Tinted Lens are incredibly threatening especially with Scale Shot, while even Regenerator or immunity sets are great for sponging up weaknesses on a team while bringing Spikes and a powerful EQ.


Similar to Garchomp, except more defensively oriented with offensive stuff as the fun bonus. Fluffy and Intimidate (viable base ability?!) are both great for enforcing a team's defensive backbone without being passive, while Regenerator helps shore up the recovery issue. All 3 of these really fuck with both Zamazenta and Roaring Moon, which is really useful when they're the top dogs (get it). Choice Scarf with Sword of Ruin is also a fun set I've explored a lot recently


Objectively a great mon with it's Bulletproof sets and being basically the only good hazard removal that isn't Great Tusk or Corviknight. I spam Iron Crown a lot and find it better as a special wall, though, hence a relatively low Treads ranking.


In terms of using Fluffy, I'd say this is strictly better than Lando-T thanks to better bulk, access to Spikes, and even Toxic and Knock Off. I've used this guy on a lot of teams since Atha brought it to my attention, but Lando-T and Garchomp get the edge for their versatility.


I'm just... not a believer in this guy. Regenerator is basically a better version of Regen Tusk, yeah, but... being a better version of a set that kinda sucks isn't a high bar. Swords Dance + Drain Punch is cool, but it's hard to fit and generally would just rather be using a Scrappy or Refrigerate Great Tusk.


These guys suck to fight and I hate them. That being said, they're not higher because I have basically no reason to use them on the teams I actually like building.


I was a pretty big pusher of the now-overturned Volcarona ban in councilcord, and I still stand by that. It's a very overwhelming presence both in the builder and in the battle itself. It's a cheeser mon that either autowins on the spot or does nothing, it's a terrible presence that actively makes the tier worse. It's not broken in the traditional sense, sure, but it's absolutely unhealthy and I hope that it gets re-banned after the Zamazenta suspect.. That being said I'm not DFM and I can't make it work on balance, so it's down here.


I already find Treads hard to fit, let alone Empoleon. Objectively it's a pretty good Pokemon, but it's such a momentum sink and it just really sucks to play with unless you're forced to.


Grouping these three together because unfortunately being an offensive Electric-type sucks when the best mon is a Dragon-type. All three of them have some amazing traits to help bypass this glaring issue, but even aside from Roaring Moon, none of them are particularly easy to use. Hisuian Electrode is weak as fuck unless you resort to some shitty Hadron or Tinted Lens sets, Sandy Shocks will never do anything in a game with Swampert, and Thundurus has negative defensive utility.


The best non-Corviknight Screens lead by a pretty good margin. Being able to consistently prevent opposing Corviknight and Smeargle from setting up screens or webs respectively is super nice when you're laddering, and Teleport is a broken move. I don't like using screens outside of suspect runs though, womp womp. Deoxys-Defense can function decently well on balance, but like... don't. It sucks to use and feels like an ultra momentum sink.

i'm still mad that you guys let this guy go unranked.


Ok, enough VR stuff and lame tiering stuff, here's a small teamdump. Also offering these as sample teams (assuming Zamazenta isn't banned, for the first one)

Here's the team I gave to pokeaim and one of my absolute favorites I've built. The unorthodox special core I've ranted about already opens up Regenerator Tusk to, for once, not completely suck! Together, they enable IronPress Zamazenta quite well, taking away a lot of the fishiness of the set.

I linked this team above already, but it's worth highlighting again. Yes, it's another CrownMoon team. This time, though, Iron Crown enables a really fun Surge Surfer guy in Garchomp that immediately threatens all of the common Scarfers. Gliscor is another cool highlight here, effectively fending off powerful attackers like Roaring Moon and Zamazenta while also spreading Toxic effortlessly.

Finally, no Iron Crown! Slither Wing helped me build this one, I wanted to build around Spikes Garchomp and figured Thundurus was an understated abuser that heavily appreciated Garchomp threatening Swampert and Iron Treads. Eject Pack Tusk lets you cope against Ceruledge while giving Roaring Moon, Thundurus, or Gholdengo a free switch-in opportunity.

 

[matte]

Big post time! I'm writing this all in one sitting, so expect this to get a bit ramble-y, but I've got a lot of thoughts on the metagame as it is now as well as the direction we to take it in.

Please keep in mind that this is not an overall ranking that I think is applicable to the metagame at large. This is my own perception of the metagame and how often I, only me, Gimmicky, am to use a specific Pokemon. This does not line up with my actual VR nominations on the last slate.


View attachment 687803


Roaring Moon is by far the best Pokemon in the metagame right now. Nothing really comes close to it. Roaring Moon does quite literally everything you could ask it to be; it's your RegenVest pivot, it's your obligatory fast-strong-hard-to-kill offensive guy, it's your setup sweeper. This can fit on, without much exaggeration, pretty much any team structure. In my opinion, you need a damn good reason to not be using Moon, and oftentimes you want to use it anyway in a different role. This is the closest thing to a mandatory Pokemon in the tier right now.

In terms of my own building I think Roaring Moon is next to mandatory. RegenVest's ability to defensively check all of (depending on their set) Gholdengo, Zapdos, Deoxys-S, Azelf, Desoland Fires, the offensive Electric-types, and even acting as a temporary check to physical attackers like Ogerpon formes and Ceruledge is so hard to pass up on. Choiced Sets, meanwhile, can still check plenty of the above while putting immense pressure on the opponent and opening up other breakers. I've also grown incredibly fond of offensive Assault Vest sets on my BO teams, taking the best of both worlds. This set rewards aggressive prediction in a way nothing else can really replicate; I've gone on record saying that RegenVest rewards good play while Magic Guard just reduces the punishment for bad play, and that applies tenfold here. I also think there's plenty of merit in some other abilities, namely Soundproof and Purifying Salt. The first is extremely notable for turning Roaring Moon into a bonafide counter to both Scream Tail and Volcarona, even after boosts, while also greatly annoying Alluring Voice Manaphy and Prankster-less Parting Shot Pecharunt. The second, meanwhile, turns Roaring Moon's status weakness into a complete status immunity, removing the most common form of counterplay to it.

So yeah, Roaring Moon is just about mandatory on any team I build unless I go out of my way to exclude it, but do I think it's a healthy presence? Jury's still out on that. Anyone in the councilcord knows that my main issue with the tier right now is that, with so many Pokemon that are all of bulky, strong, and fast, it becomes a struggle to justify anything else, making the tier feel samey and stuck in an oscillating cycle where one offensive Pokemon dominates the metagame, then another one that beats the first one dominates the metagame, then another one that beats the second dominates the metagame, and so-on. Roaring Moon may not be the root cause of that cycle, but it's inarguably a key component of it: For a time, Roaring Moon was the one of the controversial Pokemon in large part because of it's great matchup into Gholdengo, Ogerpon-W, and Deoxys-S making people spam it. Now, we're seeing the same thing happen with Zamazenta, where it's great matchup into the common Roaring Moon-centric BO teams making it easily spammable and thus controversial.

I don't think that makes Roaring Moon (or any of the other fast-strong guys, maybe barring Zamazenta) broken in a vacuum, but in the context of the actual metagame, it creates a strange combination of the metagame always feeling same-y but never feeling like it settles. I feel like there's two paths we can go down for the future of the metagame: either we make peace with this cycle of oscillating offense and try to find competitiveness within it, or we completely snuff out the cycle, banning the most powerful offensive threat every few months until the metagame truly feels unconstricted. I'm personally in favor of the first. If the most problematic member of this cycle (Zamazenta) ends up banned, I don't think it's going to fundamentally get rid of this cycle, but I do think it's going to make the whole thing a lot more stomachable and generally make the metagame feel fun again.

Whew, that was a long tangent. Time to speedrun through the rest of the VR.


I don't think I have to explain in too much detail why any of these three are good, especially on balance/BO. Great Tusk has ludicrous versatility, consistently beats most Roaring Moon (which I think is the best Pokemon, remember), and is the tier's only form of removal that feels consistent. Pecharunt has sheer Defense, amazing resists, and useful anti-offense utility in the form of Prankster Destiny Bond and Toxic. Intimidate is also the easiest way to check Zamazenta, which is super useful while it's currently the dominant threat. Zapdos brings an excellent combination of offensive power and defensive utility. Outside of the typical Primordial Sea, Fluffy, Unaware, and Intimidate are all hugely underexplored defensively while Choice Specs is an absolute sleeper pick.


Not kidding. It's almost become a bit of a meme in Smogcord/the OM Room how much I spam AV Crown, but it's working out pretty well for me so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I very strongly think that some form of bulky Roaring Moon + AV Hadron Crown is one of the single most spammable cores on BO. They cover each other's weaknesses almost perfectly; Iron Crown checks or counters the special attackers that threaten Moon the most such as Scream Tail, Primarina, and Latios, while Roaring Moon covers the Gholdengo, Fire-types, and Sandy Shocks that are prone to breaking through Iron Crown. While neither of them are individually a perfect check to Deoxys-S or Zapdos, when you have both of them at your disposal, these two become exponentially easier to handle. Iron Crown is no slouch offensively either; you can afford to invest almost fully into Special Attack (what are you really gaining by going fast?), allowing you to achieve crazy stuff like 2HKOing RegenVest Swampert and Manaphy and threatening a direct OHKO on most offensive Pokemon with Tachyon Cutter, Focus Blast, or a psuedo-STAB Volt Switch.

This Core in particularly truly exemplifies the best traits of both of these Pokemon, simultaneously being some of the most dangerous offensive threats on the team they're on while also playing defense surprisingly well until momentum is back in your favor, a pretty easy ask given their powerful pivoting moves. This core rewards aggressive play like nothing else while also not immediately crumpling on the backfoot. If you're thinking, "this core looks a bit slow", Crown's Hadron Engine is amazing for rewarding unconvential Surge Surfer users like Ogerpon-W, Ceruledge, or Garchomp, immediately shoring up the Speed issue... or you can just use Scarf Moon. Or both of these at once!

All of this on it's own would be enough for me to put Hadron Crown in the high end of A-tier on my personal VR, but what really sells it is that it is in no way limited to these sets. Choice Scarf Psychic Surge, Specs Tinted Lens, Double Dance, Immunity Calm Mind are all perfectly viable options depending on the playstyle.


I'm not explaining why Swampert is good.


I'm not explaining why Corviknight and Gholdengo are good.


I'm going to be voting Ban on Zamazenta. I'd elaborate more on it, but I honestly think I said enough about it in my Roaring Moon section. If you want to read a bit more about it, though, this post by Siamoto as well as the follow-up post by Betticus are both excellent and argue my points pretty well. Not more to add, this guy is problematic even outside of the oscillating cycle of offense it's part of.


Meowscarada is a bit of a weird pick to be as high as it is, but honestly, this mon goes absolutely crazy when, like me, you prefer to use bulky Roaring Moon. STAB Knock Off off of good Attack and an excellent Speed tier will never be bad, especially when you also have Flower Trick and a powerful U-Turn. Triple Axel is my preferred fourth move, being able to hit things like Landorus-T, Zapdos, and Moltres hard in a single slot without giving Great Tusk a free switch-in afterwards is awesome.


I was clowned on for saying this guy was broken and told to just let it settle in properly. Well, a few months later, I admit it isn't a tier-1 banworthy threat, but I also don't find it a particularly healthy presence either. I don't think it needs to be banned right now. Most people would have it placed a lot higher, but it's kind of hard to fit on the teamstyles I like to play. If I can afford to use it, it always brings results, but there's just... no utility here. Even Meowscarada feels like it has more utility with options like Trick and being able to always fit Knock Off.


I'm not explaining why RegenVest waters are good. I just think Swampert is better than both in that role. Both are notable for some pretty great offensive sets though.


I hated on this guy for a while, but Azelf is really cool once you start diving deeper into it's movepool. There's a lot of good stuff here; Energy Ball for Swampert, Shadow Ball for Scream Tail, and even useful utility like Thunder Wave and Taunt. Some of these options are a bit hard to fit, but they're all worthwhile. I'd also like to bring attention to Nasty Plot, which essentially allows Azelf to be a far stronger Deoxys-S at the cost of some Speed... but it outspeeds base 110 guys anyway! Scarf Psychic Surge is always going to be the best set, but I've explored Focus Sash Nasty Plot sets to great success.


By far the best of the Ogerpon formes. With Waterpon, you can sometimes just win on the spot if you SD at a good time. Unlike other SD fishers like Iron Boulder or Chien-Pao, though, you bring actual defensive utility! Good bulk and good resistances as well as, if Primordial Sea, completely blanking Desolate Land Fire-types means it's pretty easy to bring this onto the field and wreak havoc. Waterpon also has surprising flexibility; I've used all of Regenerator, Surge Surfer, Immunity Ability and Prankster to some degree of success, with especially Surge Surfer fitting amazingly onto bulky offense teams as a powerful cleaner and sweeper since you can afford to run Adamant.

From this point on, I'm only going to be drawing attention to Pokemon I have relatively high or low compared to general consensus.


I've been a defender of this guy for a while. Adaptability/Download sets are amazing hazard setters, Swords Dance sets with Sword of Ruin, Adaptability (again), or Tinted Lens are incredibly threatening especially with Scale Shot, while even Regenerator or immunity sets are great for sponging up weaknesses on a team while bringing Spikes and a powerful EQ.


Similar to Garchomp, except more defensively oriented with offensive stuff as the fun bonus. Fluffy and Intimidate (viable base ability?!) are both great for enforcing a team's defensive backbone without being passive, while Regenerator helps shore up the recovery issue. All 3 of these really fuck with both Zamazenta and Roaring Moon, which is really useful when they're the top dogs (get it). Choice Scarf with Sword of Ruin is also a fun set I've explored a lot recently


Objectively a great mon with it's Bulletproof sets and being basically the only good hazard removal that isn't Great Tusk or Corviknight. I spam Iron Crown a lot and find it better as a special wall, though, hence a relatively low Treads ranking.


In terms of using Fluffy, I'd say this is strictly better than Lando-T thanks to better bulk, access to Spikes, and even Toxic and Knock Off. I've used this guy on a lot of teams since Atha brought it to my attention, but Lando-T and Garchomp get the edge for their versatility.


I'm just... not a believer in this guy. Regenerator is basically a better version of Regen Tusk, yeah, but... being a better version of a set that kinda sucks isn't a high bar. Swords Dance + Drain Punch is cool, but it's hard to fit and generally would just rather be using a Scrappy or Refrigerate Great Tusk.


These guys suck to fight and I hate them. That being said, they're not higher because I have basically no reason to use them on the teams I actually like building.


I was a pretty big pusher of the now-overturned Volcarona ban in councilcord, and I still stand by that. It's a very overwhelming presence both in the builder and in the battle itself. It's a cheeser mon that either autowins on the spot or does nothing, it's a terrible presence that actively makes the tier worse. It's not broken in the traditional sense, sure, but it's absolutely unhealthy and I hope that it gets re-banned after the Zamazenta suspect.. That being said I'm not DFM and I can't make it work on balance, so it's down here.


I already find Treads hard to fit, let alone Empoleon. Objectively it's a pretty good Pokemon, but it's such a momentum sink and it just really sucks to play with unless you're forced to.


Grouping these three together because unfortunately being an offensive Electric-type sucks when the best mon is a Dragon-type. All three of them have some amazing traits to help bypass this glaring issue, but even aside from Roaring Moon, none of them are particularly easy to use. Hisuian Electrode is weak as fuck unless you resort to some shitty Hadron or Tinted Lens sets, Sandy Shocks will never do anything in a game with Swampert, and Thundurus has negative defensive utility.


The best non-Corviknight Screens lead by a pretty good margin. Being able to consistently prevent opposing Corviknight and Smeargle from setting up screens or webs respectively is super nice when you're laddering, and Teleport is a broken move. I don't like using screens outside of suspect runs though, womp womp. Deoxys-Defense can function decently well on balance, but like... don't. It sucks to use and feels like an ultra momentum sink.

i'm still mad that you guys let this guy go unranked.


Ok, enough VR stuff and lame tiering stuff, here's a small teamdump. Also offering these as sample teams (assuming Zamazenta isn't banned, for the first one)

Here's the team I gave to pokeaim and one of my absolute favorites I've built. The unorthodox special core I've ranted about already opens up Regenerator Tusk to, for once, not completely suck! Together, they enable IronPress Zamazenta quite well, taking away a lot of the fishiness of the set.

I linked this team above already, but it's worth highlighting again. Yes, it's another CrownMoon team. This time, though, Iron Crown enables a really fun Surge Surfer guy in Garchomp that immediately threatens all of the common Scarfers. Gliscor is another cool highlight here, effectively fending off powerful attackers like Roaring Moon and Zamazenta while also spreading Toxic effortlessly.

Finally, no Iron Crown! Slither Wing helped me build this one, I wanted to build around Spikes Garchomp and figured Thundurus was an understated abuser that heavily appreciated Garchomp threatening Swampert and Iron Treads. Eject Pack Tusk lets you cope against Ceruledge while giving Roaring Moon, Thundurus, or Gholdengo a free switch-in opportunity.

 

[Unoriginal555]

Does anyone else feel that iron boulder is kinda dumb? sharpness + band does some dumb damage and it has great coverage. Only downside is switching it in repeatedly, but with a slow pivot, that's easy.

 

[Gambit]

Does anyone else feel that iron boulder is kinda dumb? sharpness + band does some dumb damage and it has great coverage. Only downside is switching it in repeatedly, but with a slow pivot, that's easy.

While its certainly is quite strong, it is checked somewhat easily by Corviknight, Skarmory, and physically defensive Gholdengo, Prankster Pecharunt can switch in on it if needed, Swampert and phys def Manaphy can scout the first move it clicks. It is also revenge killed by a plethora of threats, with Scarf Roaring Moon, Chien-Pao, Scarf Gholdengo, and Zamazenta coming to mind as well as a couple others

 

[LordBox]

Dump

This has been a long time coming (I did promise you matte) but I've been constantly been putting this post on the backburner due to being busy from IRL, the constant flow of tournaments and just plain laziness but now that APAC who I've been supporting though OMWC has been knocked out in semi-finals I decided to finally finish off this post, especially with the current state of the meta we find ourselves in and without any IRL issues to bother me anymore.

OMPL Week 1:

[W] Glaliegoesboom vs MZ + [W] Envy1 vs sealoo (OMFL W2) by LordBox + Glaliegoesboom

There wasn't much of a collective idea this time around, I simply dumped various pastes of the teams I had been working on pre-OMPL and asked Glalie to test some of them out to see what they liked. I remember working on some ideas in the background like Soundproof Iron Hands but eventually Glalie settled on this idea and made a few tweaks to the team, changing the previously Moldy offensive to a more defensive EE Tusk which was better. SpDef Manaphy might be preferred as you are quite suspicious into the various special breakers floating around but Physdef did manage to clutch up versus the very annoying Kingambit that MZ brought. I already went through the game in my one review but MZ had a pretty good MU but thankfully Glalie managed to play well and capitalise off a big mistake by MZ. Funnily enough the one week when sealoo went to build their own stuff they ended up encountering this same team that Osake stole from the teamcord which ended up winning against them (It even used Moldy Tusk which was the original version before Glalie edited it to use EE, though EPack was their idea)

[W] shiloh vs abriel by racool

While a few ideas and pastes were floated like generic MGLO RMoon offense and even some FutureSight stuff shiloh decided to bring a racool team versus abriel. Not much to say as I didn't have much input into making this team obviously but it was pretty cohesive and worked well enough to make for a win versus abriel despite the annoying CB RMoon that abriel brought.

OMPL Week 2:

[L] shiloh vs Betticus IV by racool

An annoying loss, Dragonite was a predicted bring by Betticus and shiloh ultimately ended up loading a racool team that was coincidentally quite weak to Dragonite with all our breakers allowing easy entry for Dragonite and very flimsy defensive checks. Originally I remember working on some Primsea Archaludon stuff beforehand, though it didn't end up panning out too well in tests but I still think Arch is a pretty neat mon that a better builder could make work.

[W] Career Ended vs Clas by matte

A fairly generic matte team I didn't have much involvement in, though I did test it quite a bit and made a few variants to amend some of the poorer matchups of the team (like opposing Dragonite) Ultimately Career brought the original team and it worked out well enough versus Clas though the opposing Dragonite was a bit scary Career was good enough to never let it in until he already had a mon advantage to win.

OMPL Week 3:

[W] shiloh vs pyu by LordBox

Looking at some of the stuff they had brought in AAA and Bo3 and also based off what I knew their preferences in the past we were pretty wary of annoying offense. Glalie suggested the initial premise of using SFLO Prima to exploit their very flimsy defensive cores and I agreed so we rolled with it and I made some generic balance around Prima with stacked special breakers to pressure and win once any RegenVest was gone. In game we rolled a stacked MU with Itemless Defensive Ghold vs Ceruledge and Zama-H, Shocks into AV Swamp and RegenVest Primarina into Heatran that led for a very easy win. In retrospect, PrimSea Primarina is probably a better pick here due to the popularity of Heatran but we managed to get away with it here.

[W] Career Ended vs astralydia + [W] sealoo vs autumn (OMFL W1) by matte + LordBox

Astralydia's team were fairly similar with rather suspicious defensive integrity so we bounced around a few ideas like HO, Boulder and Chien-Pao, though they didn't pan out too well in tests so we went a fairly decent MGLO Ghold team that seemed alright though after a bit of testing I changed the Ghold to be Specs since MGLO kinda sucks and can't win fast enough. Forgot to specify the ability but Career ended up bring Adapt and it mauled through astralydia's team pretty efficiently and got us a pretty neat win. Once we had used it I passed it to sealoo for OMFL and it did quite well there though, though the ability was amended this time to Hadron Engine.

OMPL Week 4:

[W] Glaliegoesboom vs Glory by LordBox

I had known Glory and I had known they didn't like using Corv much and I knew they liked using Deoxys-Speed so I put out a few pastes with stuff like Vabs Corv out for Glalie to use and we ended up settling on this CB RMoon one. The speed control is quite poor but Pecha can handle annoying setup if need be and we had mostly covered over fast mons so I thought eh good enough. Lo and behold they bring a Tusk-Pecha Corv with a Deoxys-Speed and Glalie plays well enough for a very comfortable win here.

[W] Career Ended vs Ivar57 + [W] sealoo vs Dahness (OMFL W3) by LordBox

Again I was busy and I don't remember too well what happened with the prep here but I remember pumping out like 5 pastes a day before the game for Career who after talking with matte settled on this EE Hands team. I don't remember making this with anything particular in mind except for the fact that Iron Hands was a bit unexplored and potentially cool and it eventually ended up working well to clean up here. Vabs Corv core again for the paranoia of Deoxys-Speed and also making up for no GTusk removal though this time it ended up working out well to nullify Shocks (bad mon). I did want to use this Hadron Deoxys-S set for a while as it's really strong and it still is but is a bit clunky to use (as seen in the game) but still worked pretty well.

OMPL Week 5:

[W] shiloh vs Lana by matte

I wasn't really too involved this week as I was still busy, shiloh did originally make some kind of weird offensive into Lana but matte eventually came in clutch to provide a stall team that worked well enough versus Lana, though the lack of testing did almost come in a bit deadly versus the Moldy Tusk but shiloh played well around it to clutch up a win.

[L] Career Ended vs xavgb by matte + LordBox

I'm not sure why but for some reason we had decided on SpD Regen Ting-Lu which I wasn't too much of a fan of but we rolled with it. Matte sent out the initial 3 mon core of Ting-Lu + STail and Heatran and I filled out the rest quickly utilising a theorised offensive core of Ogerpon-W and Gambit. There was quite a bit of debate on WBB or Adapt as our Heatran MU was quite bad but ultimately we loaded Adapt into Heatran and so the rest is history... We did realise quite a few flaws actually quite late on and I made 2 variants quickly but since it was so close to the match I told career to just load what they were comfortable with and had tested... which proved a poor decision in hindsight. In foresight the offensive core was also a bit suspect as Kingambit kinda sucks given Tusk is a fat asshole but oh well.

OMPL Week 6:

[L] Glaliegoesboom vs Atha by Glaliegoesboom

Glalie really wanted to load Stall this week to cteam Atha, I didn't really mind as I don't think Atha would cteam it (in fact they just re-used what Bo3 loaded...) but I was pretty uncomfortable with some of the wild concepts like pain-split Toxapex... ultimately it didn't do too badly in tests and we rolled with it and loaded into an annoying TrickScarf Ghold matchup that eventually reversed the use of Sticky Barb onto us.

[W] shiloh vs Potatochan + [L] sealoo vs DaMMuby LordBox

When we asked shiloh what they wanted to bring this week they advised us not to make anything too standard as apparently racool knew their playstyle very well so we settled on bringing some fuck it we ball HO. I am somewhat sad we didn't get to bring Surge Surfer Thundurus as that set is a bit broken but regardless we got the easy 6-0 matchup, not much else to say for the game. PsySurge is pretty neat on HO I've figured as Dragonite is a bitch though its gone now so lol.

OMPL Week 7:

[W] Glaliegoesboom vs Sulo + [W] sealoo vs Gimmicky ( / ) by LordBox + matte

Sulo's team was already out this week so we didn't expect too much, perhaps some wild HO to meme or otherwise just some pretty standard stuff and we thought Glalie was better so we just gave them a variant of a balance that worked well in w3. In the actual match the mu was actually pretty sus without EBall Deoxys-Speed but thankfully Sulo let Swamp get sacked into Heatran SBeam leading for a clean win afterwards. But in hindsight, relying on Heatran for Swampert probably isn't a great idea as more people catch onto SBeam Heatran being a pain (as well as other Grass coverage Fires). I'm not sure if it was intentional but for sealoo we decided on running some Ogerpon-C to cteam Gimmicky's structures but I ended up using the exact same structure, just replacing Deoxys-Speed. Unfortunately we ran into a Ghold and WBB Kingambit but sealoo still managed to clutch up and remove Swamp to clean up in a tight endgame with Zapdos.

AAAPL Week 1:

[L] AM vs Dragonilis

Team is very generic offense-balance slop with Pecha Tusk and RMoon and Ogerpon-Wellspring to shore up what Swamp is annoyed by, Molt does suck with this team but you can modify Wellspring slot for it probably. In game AM played mostly well around the annoying Pao matchup to go into a favourable sack-war endgame until they sacked their Pecha to the STail which was otherwise key with its ability to force a trade versus Pao or irritate everything with Malignant.

AAAPL Week 2:

[W] berry vs damflame 3

Damflame wasn't someone with an extensive scout or anything so I just dumped a bunch of teams including some of the decent ones from OMPL and they ended up choosing this one, almost choosing the Pickpocket Tusk which would've been funny to see but alas. The team I did end up modifying to remove Azelf with no Dragonite that forced its usage and berry and DFM made some tweaks like making Ghold EE which helped in-game (though I still prefer WBB)

AAAPL Week 3:

[W] AM vs MZ

To be honest I've put this post on the backburner for so long I've forgotten the process we used but I'm fairly sure it was similar to the last week where I gave AM a list of teams to run with and they ended up coincidentally running another rerun from OMPL. A very tight game that ended up with AM cinching the win vs MZ with a speedtie on RMoon vs Ace.

AAAPL Week 4:

[L] berry vs O1V7O2X9O by LordBox + Quantum Tesseract

I carved up a generic first 5 mons for berry to use and QT and berry figured out to try out DDance Kommo-o which was an interesting idea however the lack of a Ground-type and even rock-setter did end up hurting us with the bad MU, though there might've been chances for Kommo-o to win with Sub and DDance it would've tight even with perfect play.

AAAPL Week 5:

[W] ojr vs Kaif

At this point we were guaranteed out so I decided to just fuck around with a random niche set being Storm Drain Ursaluna. Originally I concocted a WBB Corv core for this but then I realised it got completely stomped by Pao so I ended up defaulting back to very generic Zap-Corv and Swamp stuff with a MGLO Cob as extra offensive pressure and a rock setter + Ghold speed control and bait for Swamp. In retrospect this team could've been better, having a poor MU into Deo-S but given we were out I didn't really mind. Weirdly enough I also saw the same 6 used by the Ceruledges later on in playoffs (though with different sets like TWave Zapdos) even though this team was a 10-minute concocted mess with a meme set.

OMWC Week 3 (The Erased Game)

(A Spiritual Win) O1 vs DeepFriedMagikarp by LordBox + O1

Game that got erased from the face of the earth with the server crash but a spiritual win since we were up two and the IDBP Zama was the only chance to win and with full Malig PP up it'd be easy to force Rest then kill it with Heatran or even Sacred Sword Pao (252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 164-194 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). I only occasionally looked over pastes and provided some when asked but since DFM was good I was asked to help a bit more so I took a look at the scout and MGLO Tusk seemed pretty funny into most of their builds and WBB Corv was also an interesting idea since I knew they liked abusing Fire-types very often. Though there was no Fire-type to check and an annoying EE Ghold, O1 still managed to pilot pretty well to be up 6-4 in a fairly leading position until the server cut out.

OMWC Week 3 (The Actual Game)

[W] O1V7O2X9O vs DeepFriedMagikarp

I was a bit annoyed that we were robbed from a likely win and given it was so late in the week I just passed what I had created for Lana that week (though they didn't use) and tweaked it a bit to optimise. No real consideration for scout here, just an interesting idea in non-choiced SOR Zama (not IDBP cause it sucks) with a Fluffy Lando structure to pressure walls to make up for Zama's lower power + MGLO RMoon to cteam Pecharunt and then a Vabs Corv was obvious stuff to check annoying fast mon Deo-s and necessary removal. Game was pretty tight, Zama did have a kind of goated MU but the opposing Ceruledge was quite annoying and the Zama got Toxic'd which made it far more limited as it needed to get predicts right, however it did weaken the Mandibuzz severely which ultimately let RMoon clean the rest of everything up and even though they preserved the Zama last the fat Fluffy Lando with EP came in clutch for the win.

OMWC Semi-Finals

[W] O1 vs Atha by O1 + LordBox

Atha was obviously quite the tough opponent so we did take more of a look at their scout, we knew they loved spamming ETerrain and generally BO/Offense type stuff so I started off with Scarf Azelf + CB Meow stuff as their Corv usage wasn't too high and I also slapped on a Ghold as STail could be a bit annoying. Did get a bit lazy with the build though and O1 finished off the rest of the core with their choice of Physdef Regen Prima as they knew they liked Pao stuff and WBB Corv to shore up the annoying Fire MU given they can eternally block the Flip Turn. Vabs Ghold was a remnant from the initial concept that was pretty shaky and the Adapt Scarf Ghold that Atha brought was actually pretty scary and I did recommend at one point replacing the Corv with BProof Treads for this exact mon but either way a fairly nice win with Meow and Prima putting in heavy work and the Adapt Ghold being caught out by O1 to secure the win.

Other Teams:

Teams that didn't quite make the cut to use in these tours or just random experimental teams in my builder (was too lazy to scroll through all the teamcords for pastes) that I didn't feel confident in bringing to a tour game because why do that when you can spam the same good mons lazily and have a fat positive record for your teams instead. Mostly tried to avoid variant structures but with the centralisation in the structures well not much I can do about it lol.


























Incoherent Ramblings:

Some of my thoughts on the current controversial mons (as I see them) and also some cool mons I want to talk about (because talking about the boring good mons is boring):

Pretty much unanimously agreed upon to be the best mon in tier overall, boasting an extraordinarily high usage rate throughout both OMPL and AAAPL (70-60%) beating out even unique and key defensive staples like GTusk or Corv which have historically dominated the usage statistics. I don't really need to explain why it's good since everyone has caught on, but I would like to say that in spite of its extraordinarily high usage rate I don't believe it's a "mandatory" mon. It does fairly seamlessly fit onto many, many structures for its great defensive utility, speed control and consistency in applying pressure with the classic Knock U-Turn combo but despite these great traits nothing is particularly irreplaceable to me and I've never found a team worse because it didn't have a RMoon (actually, maybe ONE case). My position on Ban/DNB remains the same as I've outlined in previous posts and rn I am too cooked to really elaborate further now but as a short summary it has tons of checks and doesn't free up much (arguably the opposite), I saw someone mention that GTusk had a "massive surge" in popularity correlated to the rise in RMoon but during the AAA Open when RMoon had half its usage at around 30% Tusk still had a fat 45% usage (where in AAAPL/OMPL it had a decent increase of 51-55%) and it was historically so good (and spammed) it got banned in pre-Home so I'm not really seeing that angle at all I'm NGL.

Chien-Pao is an interesting mon, on-paper it doesn't seem particularly broken given the other options open in AAA, its base attack is ok but nothing special, the power of its STAB attacks are also fairly middling compared to the power of stuff like CC spam, the Weathers and so on and while its speed is obviously great it also suffers from being extraordinarily fragile. However the typing and ignoring Fluffy just work very well to allow it to be very threatening (along with the lack of 2AC to explore physdef Regen options). I find Pao quite a fun and skillful mon to play and build around with but I can understand it can be a bastard at times in the builder.

Ceruledge is kind of a bastard for slower defensive teams but at the same time they are more willing to slap on some fat hard answer anyway so meh. While it's not definitively broken given itemless checks are "good enough" (sometimes) I could see it going, whether it would change teams much is debatable given most are offensive and even outside of those most teams are pretty lazy in their checks with some random Itemless thing slapped on.

Deo-S is still pretty strong and can roll through cores, though most people have mostly acclimatised to its existence there haven't really been any new checks (bar like, BProof Treads if it isn't mixed). People just don't like using Deo-S much since it can be quite finnicky to use being fragile and at times somewhat prediction reliant so people get by spamming their RegenVests and forgetting about it. I don't really mind it as I am Vabs Corv spammer (one of the few more reliable checks) but once people remember about it once other threats get nuked I could see it resurging again as it still can be pretty nuclear especially if it's most popular offensive check (Scarf RMoon) gets wiped.

All of these mons fall into the "niche fighting resists that are kind of cool but not really that good and I won't use more than once" category that I mentioned once before. All have their unique merits and most would love to afford Regen but alas, I would've tried put more of my physical Regen teams into the dump but they end all being pretty similar with their cores which is a bit sad but someone better than me can probably make it work. Otherwise tried Levitate/WSpirit on the Poisons and Corrosion on Okidogi which can be cool but without Regen the survability is really quite gimped. Glowking is a bit different and I mainly tried to leverage slow pivot + Future Sight but the defensive utility is gimmicky and it's still hard to maintain momentum with it but it's usable-ish.

Niche fighting resists that are kind of cool that are ok and maybe I'll use more than once or twice. Rocks, pivot and typing is pretty cool though generally only fits on fast paced offense teams that can afford to play around the limited no recovery nature of these sets but generally fits pretty well on them and can abuse the removers fairly well (at least Lando-I anyway). RegenVest also was like a thing I saw once but I doubt it's actually good (g8 cope is not real...)

This mon is cool probably? At least the chainchomp variant which I saw DFM use to blow up Glalie's stall which was quite funny. Main issue I've found with Chomp is it just is really hard to find a place on teams given there's so many Ground-types and better Fire resists but someone better than me can probably leverage it on offense. Regen variants are dead but I did try once, just turns out to be too fragile for what it wants to do, its best partner is definitely Empoleon but you still have Deo-S, Specs Ghold which aren't surmountable but even the part that Garchomp is supposed to fill (Fire check, Electric check) it can often fail at with all the Fires spamming Wisp and the Electrics often able to just brute force their way through Chomper. A sad fall for what once was the premier Regen and Ground-type in the tier but powercreep is a bitch!

Categorising these as kind of fat balance exclusive mons that have been always been quite niche but especially now with the archetype hanging in the complete shadow of all the offense and balance going around I still think it has some neat tricks that it can try to do, I have some of my prototyped versions of the archetype in my dump but nothing refined so maybe someone better than me can make it work wonders, full stall on the other hand... I don't know about that.

It's too bad that I WANT to make this thing work because it's another fogger bird but man it just feels so ass I play it. I do have a few teams in the dump that use it to moderate success but nothing special, being able to complement Pecha (kind of) and that's basically it. Gamefreak please free removal... (that isn't utter ass)

Funny mon, I find the only decent set is Storm Drain that can leverage some defensive utility while completely trolling Swamp and bad Mana teams but that's mostly it. Still, I've come around on it and it can definitely do big stuff but needs to be enabled properly to come in against offensive teams.

Saved the suspect star for last as I wish to talk about the meta and its future more in-depth when talking about Zama.

Even from those who do like the meta as it currently is I think even they can agree this meta is certainly not perfect and there have been many complaints about the meta as evidenced in the drop in the enjoyability of the meta as compared to the previous metas and the general average. From my own experience and from those who I've talked to and also observed I believe most of these issues can be linked mainly to the general stagnation that can be found within the builder which is almost undeniable at this point. Looking at my teams, other teams in the threads or even the samples you can see this and you can see in the usage statistics for the most recent tournaments as well with the dominance of select favourites such as Roaring Moon, GTusk and Corv.

There have been other complaints about HO (particularly screens) in the tier so I'll quickly spell out my thoughts on HO and Light Clay. Yes HO is annoying but I don't believe the playstyle to be fundamentally broken. The playstyle can be somewhat linear and with the strong speed control around it generally is playable around, but I can certainly acknowledge it can be frustrating to play against especially when they fish correctly (I did lose to one on my suspect run). It hasn't made any big splash in the tour scene with a couple of wins and losses there but I suspect that the suspect forcing everyone to go on ladder where HO is everyone has reminded people "hey this exists and is annoying af to play". I don't really care about a Light Clay ban until I see it actually doing notable stuff but if people were to push for it I wouldn't necessarily oppose it, really just a comfort ban and with action on Volc likely incoming and people no longer having to ladder I doubt this push will manifest but maybe I will be mistaken. I certainly don't think HO is a core issue and stuff like Prank Pecha has been seeing notable use far back due to simple meta innovation not really because of HO.

Back on track to the core issue at hand. While certainly I'm not saying there has been no innovation and the meta has remained completely stagnant, with innovations like BProof Treads, Moltres, Hands and other sets falling and rising have occurred, most people have been predominantly trapped to the same permutation of mons and structures. Some may vaguely scream "skill issue", and I can acknowledge, though rare, there have been a few interesting unorthodox teams/structures (primarily very offensive-oriented which I'll talk about later) like Atha's ESurge team (though you still see a lot of staple mons on there) However speaking from my own personal experience, I've made it somewhat of a personal habit to shove away unorthodox sets/structures in favour for these bog standard archetypes for tournament games and from the record of these teams I can't really say it doesn't work (though it does certainly help that I get better players than myself to pilot them... but I digress) I've seen some interesting structures from the likes of racool/Jrdn but from what I've heard and seen these structures aren't that great and don't provide much of an edge compared to the standard offense of today (but hey at least they work!).

So I think most people can agree that this is the core issue we want to try to address and if we want to address an issue we must try to find the root cause of the issue, so what is it? This is where it can get a bit tricky. I'll do a bit of a reverse Uno-card and bring it back to what I was mainly supposed to talk about, the dog, and the paths we find ourselves on.

Firstly, my perspective on the Ban side. Zama is a strong mon and more importantly a fast mon. STAB CC means it can exert a lot of pressure onto cores and has sufficient coverage to hit most resists at least well enough to pressure them. Moreover there are also IDBP sets that can try to bypass conventional methods of outplaying Choiced Zama that can work and be annoying with coverage and weird options. So thus banning Zama in theory should alleviate some stress on the builder (which I will address later on). But this is hardly satisfying to the issue at hand and I don't think anyone agrees a Zama ban would alone be enough to truly attack the issue at hand. What a Zama ban would really entail would be to serve as a catalyst for further bans, its speed and defensive utility is important in maintaining the offensive pace of the meta, checking dangerous threats like Chien-Pao and Roaring Moon. Chien-Pao is already complained about enough and with an extra excuse I can't really see it staying. Oh now you've banned two of the fastest mons in the tier that served as offensive checks to controversial mon Roaring Moon, well why don't we ban it as well? And since we've banned Roaring Moon why don't we also ban Ceruledge since the meta has slowed significantly? Why don't we ban Iron Boulder as well?

The point of this ban and further using it as a catalyst to ban more offensive mons can be mostly derived from the view that this stagnation in the builder is primarily the fault of overwhelming pressure of the current pool of offensive mons within the meta. That if we ban the top 5 or whatever offensive mons that are the most annoying there'll be enough freedom revitalised within the builder and we can move away from this centralised offensive metagame. This is of course mainly my view on what others views are so some things have probably been lost in translation but this sentiment isn't complete delusion, you can see it in Hera's post and Greybaums older proposal that outline a similar approach in nuking the top bracket of power and similar lists of bans when discussing with people like Betticus or racool (though of course they do not all share the identical perspective this is the main philosophy and path I see possible with a Zama ban).

Now it's time to get around to my own personal perspective around the DNB side. There are two core elements (or three, kind of) that make this argument and path to me not preferable.

The first core element is that it's my view that a core cause to this to the general sense of stagnation in structures is not primarily due to the pressure from the offensive mons present but due to the limitations of the dex we are given and that even if we ban these offensive mons that structures will still remain mostly stagnant. Powercreep in mons is an interesting topic, of course more powerful mons and moves are introduced but to a degree this form of creep can be limited with said bans but a different form of this limitation just comes in the defensive tools we are given at hand and we can see this fact played out very obviously in front of us in G9. Hazard removal has been completely gutted this generation while hazard setters remain extraordinarily good and prevalent, even bootspam isn't entirely consistent due to the very generous Knock distribution given out by Gamefreak, leading to centralised structures around the two (or three) removers who also aren't complete dogshit and retain great utility (Corviknight, Great Tusk, Gholdengo, the RegenVests, etc*). These mons, and structures will remain great (and have) pretty much regardless of what you wipe out. I heard a point by Betticus that Great Tusk usage "skyrocketed" alongside Roaring Moon but if you take a look at the usage statistics in AAA Open and then later in the meta in OMPL and AAAPL usage stats you can see Roaring Moon essentially double in usage (35% -> 61% and 70%) while Great Tusk still had substantial usage at 45%, increasing somewhat to 55% and 51% which certainly is not "skyrocketing" in proportion with each other and let us remember the time Great Tusk got BANNED for being so good and spammed (though somewhat unfairly ngl) when RMoon was practically irrelevant with Crunch. The core of the issue isn't really being addressed at all with this line of reasoning, but you may say (as others have) so what? What better is there to do? At least we are "lowering the offensive floor" but I'm not sure I even agree with this which leads to the second core element on my belief.

This second core element is that I don't believe this push to "de-offense" the meta by banning all the "fast, strong guys" (Zama -> Pao -> RMoon) will even lower the offensive floor as it simply opens the door for many other slower threats. Remember when everyone was complaining about the Ogerpon formes? Remember when they were broken and people were complaining about the centralisation of the DLC1 meta but now we have one extra good mon to check them (Pecharunt) and the quickened pace of the meta to keep them in check "enough" and now remove the top 3 fastest mons including one that was a popular soft-defensive check to two of them. Remember other strong Fighting-types that also gave us reason to use Fluffy (remember Zamazenta was only introduced mid-DLC2 and before then people even used to want to ban the likes of Zama-C and Gapdos at points) Remember Gengar? These mons have been threatening, and still pretty much are but with a few extra checks (that we want to stop spamming) and with the faster offensive pace keeping them in check and allowing teams to be flexible around them.

I have observed some tiring of this philosophy that we can just ban our way out to solving all our issues drawn from our past tiering action. While we haven't done anything as wide-sweeping yet, observing far more warping past mons (Gouging Fire, Walking Wake) you can see even though they distorted the builder considerably, have our structures truly notably changed? You no longer need to run a random immunity or some random double resist but despite it structures have continued to decay and centralise around the majority of our top picks as more time has been sunk into optimising cores and sets fall into irrelevance (remember Deo-D?). I still mostly agree with these bans, but the comparisons to Zama are bad as I don't think Zama is nearly half as warping (addressed later and addressed by people like Glory) and I see Zama as having more directly healthy traits with the structures it enables and the mons it checks. I also should point out our very last suspect, Dragonite, how it went when we banned one of our best speed control options with strong defensive utility, while I did appreciate that I didn't have to run Malignant Pecharunt anymore or Zapdos on most teams, structures still tended to centralise further especially with the rest of the offensive mons that appreciated its removal. Nothing really in the meta really matches the warping that was caused by the like of Gouging and Wake and even

I think partly believe this belief that we can just nuke our way out of this harkens back to somewhat to previous metagames, arguably the best metagame we've had this generation is the Home meta where while structures were still quite centralised (Corviknight, Garchomp were the main offenders) there was far more variation in cool sets (remember the Diancie sample?) but the Home meta and other metas outside of DLC2 all have had the luxury of a timer on their existence as well a reduced dex. A reduced dex that, sure, cut down on a lot of the offensive mons as one but also cut out a lot of the better defensive options we so spam in our cores now which helped increase variety in a way and a timer before another large meta shift helped the endstates of the metagame as it prevented the further centralisation of cores as people optimised sets and structures like we have had. You can both see this in how people enjoyed the early DLC2 metagame in spite of the large amount of offensive bullshit that roamed around (Wake, Gouging, even stuff like Bundle, Keldeo, no Pecha) and the decay metas like pre-Home experienced nearing the end of its tenure with CorvChompScreamMoth being an extremely spammed core and I remember being quite thankful to get out of the meta by the end.

So, big TLDR for my beliefs on the future of the meta and Zama; I don't believe that banning Zama and proceeding to use it as a catalyst to nuke the "strongest, fastest guys" in the meta will truly address the core issues of the stagnant meta-game, key mons and the structures that surround them will continue to be spammed the hell out of (as they always have) and even the promise of at least lowering the offensive floor falls into the issue of just other offensive mons rising to interrupt those totally epic different structures you might be able to use. The issues are structural to the 1AC dex and the fact as people optimise the hell out of the few good mons we have for defensive structures people will naturally get bored.

Of course, some may say "So what? Are we going to live in this same offensive meta forever?" and my answer to that is yeah, with an asterisk.

I think that the current offensive state of the metagame is fairly enjoyable to a point. Generally most people can agree that the actual gameplay of the meta is fine. Most games are quick, offensively-minded and dynamic, the only real opposition to this sentiment I've seen is Hera's post with anecdotal evidence but I've spoken to various people that find it mostly fine, the survey results for competitiveness of the tier remaining high throughout the period of markedly lower enjoyment and I have my own anecdotal experience to the contrary, taking games from my team's AAAPL performance (w1 MZ vs Dragonilis w2 berry vs damflame 3) where there's some pretty bad MUs. MZ played around Pao vs Pecha Zama as only checks leveraging their momentum to not let Pao get free kills and using Pecha to play around Pao when necessary and should've won if they didn't sack Pecha for no reason, w2 features not as annoying matchup but HElec vs Swamp with only Scarf RMoon (which is super threatened by TWave) and an offensive Heatran is not fun and yet berry played excellently around the matchup, avoiding the TWave and juggling Heatran well to not take too much from VSwitch (and this team was fairly balanced). Most games I've seen have been fairly balanced with a few flops here and there and even for those matchups the games weren't really dire (bar the times they just couldn't break the defensive core) I could go more in-depth and look over more games but I haven't seen much sentiment in opposition apart from the one post so I'll leave it here.

Linking back to the lack of a timer on this meta, I believe at least part of the discontent of the meta was somewhat inevitable (in a 1AC limited environment), with 3 back-to-back tournaments (OMPL, AAAPL, OMWC) people were going to get tired of the meta, especially with its structural issues. Obviously this is not a core factor but I believe it has exacerbated the discontent present, this is mostly just a personal perspective on things because I have had more fun personally after building less for tournaments and more just messing around with gimmicky sets that aren't meta defining but have a small niche and can do some cool things, which I think is really the best we're going to get this generation. Linking back to earlier, there certainly have been some cool innovations! Bulletproof Treads, Moltres, Iron Hands even some Sinistcha stuff which is pretty funny and those unique Eterrain offenses that Atha used to great success.

I think that the best approach we have going forward in this 1AC future is to continue working and optimising with the mostly offensive pace of the meta and keep Zamazenta (and most of the others) with its important role in maintaining this balance. Of course this does not mean we have to live in a completely static meta (see, with an asterisk), I think we can still look at some comfort bans on some just plain annoying ass mons that won't really cause any downsides, Volcarona, Ceruledge, maybe Chien-Pao. Hey maybe we can even look at re-introducing stuff like Dragonite or even Triage at a point!

Some extra notes (even though this is already long enough): I don't really talk much about Zama itself, (which is funny given this was supposed to the be the section on Zama but oh well) only the long-term impacts of a Ban or Do Not Ban vote that much except for the some vague details about the pressure it has been exerted to emit as well as the fact it's an important lynchpin in maintaing this offensive meta with its ability to act as speed control and bulk/typing to let it check things like RMoon and Pao. Other people have already gone into great detail about this, and my personal view aligns fairly closely to what Glory has described in the thread on if Zama is actually "broken" and also does mention how Zama can be healthy and enable structures with examples they have brought up, but I'll go on a small talk on my perspective on why Zamazenta isn't broken.

-> Fluffy and Pecharunt are two very big things that already check Zama quite well but I've never had the experience that "I'm forced" into those archetypes either to deal with Zama, sure Intimidate Corv or some fat Tusk is weaker but it's still more than do-able with those mons and just a decent Fighting resist/immunity (Scream-Tail, defensive Moltres, Gholdengo, Ceruledge, etc*), and loading 2 soft checks to something sometimes when you want isn't any indication it's broken. If you want an example there's berry's w2 game utilising Intim Corv and some soft-checks (that were good anyway) and it was a clean sweep and a lot of these Intim Corv just leverage it and some other random resists, and Glory also has good examples with Regen Tusk. Also I'm mainly talking about CB/SoR variants because IDBP is ass.

-> On IDBP I don't believe that IDBP is meaningfully awful as a fish. I went through my own memory and can't find a single tournament win, with the 4 (or 5) examples when it was brought ALL being losses. Here's Binacle Pinnacle vs Kinetic and QT vs Kinetic (for some reason people like using IDBP against Kinetic lmao). These uses were in OMPL and AAAPL respectfully, before when this craze was going on so you can hardly say people are "hard prepping" for it, there's also DFM vs O1 and Nashrock vs Glory. I find it a bit absurd people keep on bringing up Soundproof Zama even though the set is awful and no one actually has ever used the thing. Wow you beat STail. That's basically it. You don't even beat Pecha since it beats you not by PShotting but by clicking the damaging move. You can always fish in theory with some moveset and ability but the relevance is questionable.

The other thing is that I constantly mention is that how this is a structural issue that we have to live in a 1AC environment. Well originally this was meant to be a post detailing how if we want to truly fix this structural issue of having terrible options in the builder outside a few non-shitmons like Corv, Tusk, Ghold we should try 2AC but since the People™ have said no I've had to put my ambitions to rest and focus on what we have, because why would introducing more options particularly on the physically defensive side ever help the stagnation and improve the long-term potential of exploration in the meta at all? (Yes I'm mad, now I will stop talking about it)

The very last thing I will talk about concerns some sentiment I have seen brought up by people like Glory and Chessking345 this sentiment is that action should be based off a pragmatic view of what can and will be banned but I think this sentiment is somewhat flawed. Of course it shouldn't be predicated on something completely ridiculous like freeing Arceus or Magnet Pull or whatever but for the action concerned here I don't see it unreasonable that say action will follow a Zamazenta ban on mons like Chien-Pao and possibly RMoon and similarly that action can definitely happen even if Zama stays around.

Now, finally, that is most of my thoughts wrapped up, I could go on for more but this is an incoherent mess that I didn't really properly structure as I was trying to finish this before the Zama suspect ended but I've been wanting to truly try to pour my thoughts on what the core issues (and our paths to address them) are in the metagame even if it won't make much of a difference for Zama given how late this post is lol. If you have read all of this, congratulations! You've made it to the end. I could barely read through this ramble myself and I hope that Zama does stay, but even if it doesn't at least I hope at least this post is valuable in sparking discussion for how we can address these core issues in the new meta to come.

 

[LordBox]

Volcarona has been quickbanned! (finally)​

Quickban or Suspect...	LordBox	BetticusIV	Ivar57	Atha	DeepFriedMagikarp	Bonk	QT	Total
Volcarona	BAN	BAN	BAN	SUS	ABS	BAN	ABS	1-4-2 BAN

Volcarona since last AAAPL and continuing into OMWC has popped up every so and then to showcase its brutal power as a Quiver Dance sweeper. The most popular set thats been used is SFLO for its pure power that can often easily overwhelm the majority of our SpD counterplay such as Swampert, Manaphy and Roaring Moon dying to its coverage or just getting setup on, with even resists like Zapdos or Moltres often dying to the pure power of its resisted attacks of non-STAB neutral coverage such as Psychic. This pure power has always been balanced out by its fragile nature and checks such as Dragonite but with its removal it has begun to gain more usage and become far more of a headache in the builder which has already been quite strained and complained about and such has been banned! While a suspect was considered and voted on, the more outright unhealthy and fishy nature of Volcarona as a pure setup sweeper led to its potential vote for a quickban which succeeded (again).

Tagging dhelmise to implement (again), thanks!

 

[Subsonic72]

I got to a pretty good spot on the ladder 1580 Peak I think so time to post some of my teams.
Fluffly Roaring Moon/Normalize Polteageist screens Ho
https://pokepast.es/a770fd558ec8acf4 This is the team I won the most with, a very Dishonest/Dumb Ho team. If it wasn't so reliant on suprising the opponent I'd nominate it for sample bc its super beginner friendly. (Check out the paste for detailed strats)

Latios/Zarude Balance
https://pokepast.es/67665d0b63669e26 Posted this in the Suspect thread for the dog but I love it so much that I'll post it here again. I hit my peak using this team.

One thing: Latios with specs and Dragons Maw. Its so strong that it can carry you through basically anything and serves as a super easy progress maker/wincon. If you play prim + scream tail with this set you play 5v6 to be fair.
In general, the teams biggest weakness are offensive prim sets, since pert cannot switch in reliably. It also struggles to switch into cb Zamazenta but you could make corv fluffy to deal with that. (While writing this I just though that bulletproof treads could replace lando fairly well)
That being said, its in many ways the opposite of the first team. Its super honest in what it does (aside from the cheesy counter on swamper, which is an incredible suprise tool as well) and relies much more on you playing the matchup well. However, it's also not at all dependent on broken mons or abilities and works independent of the metagame funnily enough. I basically took it from my Gen 8 Teams and made a few small tweaks but its largely the same team I used to get to top 100 or top 50 I think in Gen 8 AAA.

The team revolves around a fire water grass core and the duo of pert and corv being able to soft wall most special and physical threats respectively. Zarude serves as speed control and as a surprisingly decent mid game breaker against non fluffy corv. Lando is kinda the odd one out but the set is fun and it helps with the zamazenta matchup since it can live a hit and threaten it back. Still the weakest link tho. I threw it together bc I wanted a rocker that can actively beat corv, great tusk and chansey.


Maybe if I come back to the tier and fix up the team I'll nominate it for sample if possible. If nothing else, give the 5 stack of Latios, Talonflame, Swamper, Corviknight and Zarude a shot.

Optimization possibilities maybe are: Zarude to any of the ogerpon variants with sd plus grassy terrain. Talonflame to Moltres and Lando to Bulletproof treads. Haven't tried them though so they may make the team worse aside from the last one.

Last Shoutout to this set
Thorn (Empoleon) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Roost
- Flip Turn
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rocks

This guy works well with cb zamazenta/roaring moon or a special attacker that does 35% to av pert. Your thing is to come in on u/flip turn and deal 34% (I think) damage. Then put up rocks and you've done easily 40% to corv.


Thanks for reading and I'd love to hear some thoughts on the teams. Really love building and playing in this tier.

Subsonic out.

 

[Betticus IV]

I am posting the one team I got a win w bc its a pretty fire prim team w some cool techs



Idea is lure pech w tusk and then let broken set up guy claim everytime its in. Cool tech on this team was a pech thats faster than ceru bc I realized SD ceru just 6-0s so I went w speedy and it worked p beautifully ngl. Primsea lando and bp ghold bc u need primsea mon w prima and a rlly solid ghold answer.

I also wanted to propose something that I think would be pretty interesting/beneficial for the current meta. As of right now, I think this is the least fun/creative the meta has been, and I haven't rlly made that a secret, but I think one of the main reasons for that is the loss of Dragonite. It kept a lot of the annoying 370+ guys in check and as of rn it feels very boring/centralized to build balance and offense. There are also quite a bit of complaints ab screens and HO in general, we saw this especially during the Zama suspect. I think of the biggest reasons is because the priority in this tier feels so mid, playing other tiers you can always have the back up of e-speed to keep whatever in check in a balanced and meaningful way. Here it is what? Sucker Punch? Shadow Sneak? Ice Shard? All these options are mid and many of the top dogs (literally) can shrug these off. Anyway, my point is this: We should ban Aerilate and unban Dragonite/Noivern.

I firmly believe dnite would be perfectly healthy in the meta w pixispeed/any other -ate ability and this is because it won't have access to any good flying STAB besides Hurricane (mid). The biggest issue by far and away w dnite was STAB espeed compounded by its coverage, but without this damage amp, the mon is balanced fine and is easily able to be played around. The coverage options that it sports would be no different from the likes of zama or deos, but honestly more balanced as it does not have the speed tier to abuse this like those two. Noivern would also be an interesting mon, as it would be an interesting removal option w a set like burst/sfang/roost/defog being cool, but again playable due to its lackluster sp atk and mediocre defenses.

some noivern calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Manaphy: 107-127 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pecharunt: 124-146 (32.6 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 121-143 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 127-150 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Manaphy: 73-86 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 182-216 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 81-95 (25.7 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

These are perfectly reasonable calcs, and is comparable/less than damage that other special mons produce in this meta. Especially if it is choiced, it will have major longevity issues being weak to rocks and being meh w damage output. The only set I can see being problematic is the sfang/burst set, but even then 379 is a good but not great speed tier here and its majorly reduced damage output/mid bulk make me believe it'd be more of a healthy presence than not.

I think aerilate the ability can be looked at in this situation, as not only has usage of this ability fallen off a cliff in both tour and ladder, there aren't any viable/relevant mons that use this ability. The only two mons I can see arguments for this are Landorus-Therian and Minior, but the former usually runs fluffy and scarf/set-up aerilate is extremely niche/not worth it on basically any competent/serious build. Minior is already extremely niche of a mon, and while being the only viable aerilate explosion user, I really have only seen Cat be the one to talk about it, and even now w HO being much better I don't think I have ever run into it on ladder, as there are frankly much better hazard setters to use/screens are by far the better play style than suicide rocks lead. Even with these more fringe uses, I don't see these two being enough justification for keeping the ability around, and I value what Noivern/Dragonite could potentially bring to the meta over what the other two already do bring.

Usage Stats of Minior and Lando

Minior |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 2357 |
| Avg. weight: 0.127069356265 |
| Viability Ceiling: 83 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Aerilate 62.008% |
| Anger Shell 11.972% |
| Queenly Majesty 9.206% |
| Armor Tail 5.193% |
| Refrigerate 3.574% |
| Sturdy 2.939% |
| Other 5.107%

| Landorus-Therian |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 5935 |
| Avg. weight: 0.117647890299 |
| Viability Ceiling: 95 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Fluffy 41.514% |
| Aerilate 18.806% |
| Desolate Land 12.344% |
| Regenerator 11.998% |
| Intimidate 2.619% |
| Iron Barbs 2.567% |
| Other 10.152% |

I just don't think either of these counts are enough to justify it, as neither of these mons are reaching near the counts of top tiers, and of the one that is much closer (lando), aerilate isn't even its most used.

I think this would be an interesting avenue to look at for both tiering and balance perspective, if it doesn't stick I'm not gonna cause an uproar ab it but I think this would help balance some of the offensive threats we have in the current meta in a meaningful way, especially with Zamazenta not getting banned.

Anyway tangent done, GGs to Ivar. This has been a great year for me. From joining and qualing for my first tour in February, getting knocked out r1, and instead of getting discouraged I used it as a learning experience to make top 8 in open (going through the gauntlet btw, seriously wtf was that?), being on the winning ompl team, winning seasonal, drafting an amazing AAAPL team/having a great run, and ending it off by giving Ivar a run for his money in those games I'm really happy. I think as of rn I want to step out of the AAA box, as seriously sitting down to play and build the other tiers has been eye opening on how to reach the next level/become a better player. I was surprised I qual'd at all as open and ssnl is all I played, but to make it some games where it came down to getting key plays wrong/Ivar playing better in hard situations, I'll take it (obv there was more to it but for the one sentence summary, just go w it). I also think its a bit ironic I faced Ivar r1, as he rlly helped me grow as a builder and player during open, and always gave me the push to go outside of my comfort zone when it came to applying myself for these tours, but we would never face in tour lol. Imma get the runback during bo3 tho so get ready.

 

[Hiusi guy]

Top Ten :3

Haven't played AAA in a while (or been online in general but that's besides the point), built this team (https://pokepast.es/df4ecf4b0066da0b) and somehow in 2 days, initially starting at 1490 or so, reached and dropped from 1580 like 4 times and somehow none of the teams I played seemed to be meta but more out there picks. Not saying that those out there picks were the only reason I lost, I just make bad plays in general, but them being the way they are did help beat me up. For example, Tech Mamoswine eats into my team pretty efficiently with not much I can do about it besides hoping they are too shy to click their buttons, as well I've ran into many Iron Hands that are everything other than regen or earth eater, namily Quick Draw Quick Claw Bdrum and Assvest Galvanize , I also played against Ivar where he had Trace Great Tusk and Misty Surge Roaring Moon which are new to me at the least and totally destroyed me ofc, last thing that I can remember I ran into was a Dbond Team that I would've lost to if I didn't have Latios with scarf which shows my lack of skill. Anyways I am having fun with the meta rn though that can change based on how many Zamazentas I see in the future.

TL;DR, Got top Ten with cool team, but where meta?

 

[Subsonic72]

Top Ten :3

View attachment 694423

Haven't played AAA in a while (or been online in general but that's besides the point), built this team (https://pokepast.es/df4ecf4b0066da0b) and somehow in 2 days, initially starting at 1490 or so, reached and dropped from 1580 like 4 times and somehow none of the teams I played seemed to be meta but more out there picks. Not saying that those out there picks were the only reason I lost, I just make bad plays in general, but them being the way they are did help beat me up. For example, Tech Mamoswine eats into my team pretty efficiently with not much I can do about it besides hoping they are too shy to click their buttons, as well I've ran into many Iron Hands that are everything other than regen or earth eater, namily Quick Draw Quick Claw Bdrum and Assvest Galvanize , I also played against Ivar where he had Trace Great Tusk and Misty Surge Roaring Moon which are new to me at the least and totally destroyed me ofc, last thing that I can remember I ran into was a Dbond Team that I would've lost to if I didn't have Latios with scarf which shows my lack of skill. Anyways I am having fun with the meta rn though that can change based on how many Zamazentas I see in the future.

TL;DR, Got top Ten with cool team, but where meta?

AAA ladder is pretty hard to win very consistently due to goofy sets like the ones you met.

Idk about meta but running 2 physical attackers that are only checked by two different corv sets works reasonably well. I.e. Ceru/Zam or Moon/Pao in any duo combination. Ceru needs fire immune bird, za and moon need fluffy and Pao intimidate.
Aside from that, Ou ideas like bulky hazard stack with tech to beat the most common removal options also work well.

Lastly, cheesy Ho with sets like Normalize Skill swap polteageist, Fluffy weaknes policy roaring moon, steam engine + weakness policy on anything with power trip/stored power and random immunities can get you a lot of ladder wins. Screens corv or Lead smeargle with prankster can facilitate those team amazingly. The best non cheese offensive Rocker may be Garchomp with life orb, max spa and speed, dragons Maw/adaptability and rocks, Draco, Eq, fireblast. It's good due to smoking every good removal option.

Otherwise the viability Rankings pretty much say it all.

 

[LarryBetraitor]

Personally haven’t seen many legendaries be overpowered or broken, though there have been some run ins. So as much as I can understand your point AAA has so many suprise factors and resources to keep them from maintaining Uber level status.

Ew, Toga and Landorous in the same pic.

 

[Lightniong]

Ew, Toga and Landorous in the same pic.

my crodie in christ there’s no pic

Anyway, honestly, I’ve been trying to make at least some form of future sight offense work, as being able to lure pecharunt until a random future sight comes in and kills it is just kinda funny, and it can force some teams into some really awkward situations

 

[Elvira]

Ew, Toga and Landorous in the same pic.

My pic is Billie Eilish, my SIGNATURE is Toga and Landorus. <3

 

[LarryBetraitor]

My pic is Billie Eilish, my SIGNATURE is Toga and Landorus. <3

Eh, it's still a pic, I can't be wrong if I never even specified the location of the pic in the first place, and it still makes me want to vomit, signature or not.

 

[Stinky McP]

Ive been teambuilding and found an annoying set that i need to share

The idea is that liepard set, the copy cat one, but you can put it on any dude you want. I found the most success with mimikyu heres the idea:

Mimikyu @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Phantom Force
- Copycat
- Destiny Bond
- Trick

In theory you can use any guy with a 2 turn move like fly, dig or dive, but mimikyu brings some utility outside the cheese. Dont expect to sweep immediately with it because its hard countered by any move with a different priority than +0.

To those of you who see this, have fun with it.

 

[Glory]

Welp, just wanted to drop some cool teams and share some meta thoughts.

Sample submissions I guess:

edit: ignore the version above and use this one instead

I wanted to revisit this idea from AAAPL. I think hazard stack HO is really good atm, it's very difficult to stand up to defensively and offensive teams can crumble very easily to Fluffy Roaring Moon, SoR IronPress Zama, and Agility Thundurus-T. Thundurus-T has definitely been my go-to special sweeper following the Volcarona ban, as it's stupidly strong, able to pick up KOes on most neutral targets without needing to boost its Special Attack, though relying on Focus Blast is beyond frustrating. IronPress SoR is a great set that astralydia introduced to me, though sadly it can't reach its full potential on this team due to needing Heavy Slam instead of Crunch.
edit: changed Roaring Moon to Kingambit because Roaring Moon just isn't any good. People have adapted to Fluffy DD quite well, and while Kee Berry instead of Weakness Policy can beat some of those methods like spamming EQ with Fluffy Tusk or Lando it's generally not that effective. Kingambit still fills the role of the team's Dark-type very well and is a much better Spikes abuser than Moon. I prefer Tinted Lens not only because it can stop Corviknight from using Defog with Taunt, but also because it can OHKO Zamazenta at +2 after hazard chip. Also this means Thundurus doesn't need Dark Pulse for Latios and Zamazenta doesn't need Heavy Slam for Scream Tail.


Really nice team I like. It's quite basic and definitely on the bulkier side for my builds, but it's still potent offensively because of what a major threat Heatran is, especially with Dazzling Gleam Gholdengo and Wandering Spirit Tusk helping it against RegenVest Moon. I wanted to have Earth Power so Heatran could beat Well-Baked Body Gholdengo and OHKO Iron Moth, and Power Gem only hits Primordial Sea Zapdos and Moltres, the former struggles a lot with RegenVest Moon and Heatran coming into it, and the latter being overwhelmed by Magma Storm anyway. Zamazenta is Heavy-Duty Boots with Sword of Ruin instead of MGLO because I both wanted more security against webs and didn't want to lose my damage amp from switching into Knock Off.


This one is very similar to the last team. The core of Zama, Ghold, Tusk, and Moon is something I think is really good at handling most things solidly while having a good amount of versatility in how you run them. On this team I was able to run another scarfer so Ghold could afford to run broken Choice Specs. Either Roar or Bulk Up on Great Tusk would work to handle IronPress Zamazenta. Speaking of IronPress Zamazenta, here's another team with Sword of Ruin IronPress. This set is genuinely so good.


The team I achieved 95 GXE and 1850 ELO with. RMT coming (pretty) soon so I'm not gonna get into explaining it now. RMT done, full in-depth explanation found here


Okay meta thoughts time.

My Personal VR

Only gonna give thoughts on mons I think are actually worth discussing.


I've been pretty vocal about how good I think Zamazenta is. It's incredibly fast, strong, and bulky in a metagame with relatively limited speed control options. Zamazenta beats most of the scariest breakers, and is an incredibly potent threat on its own. The set versatility that Zamazenta has is very underrated imo; between CB, IronPress, Clear Amulet Howl, and MGLO it can fit onto any team and can mix up its moves to help deal with whatever you need, with stuff like Ice Fang, Wild Charge, Psychic Fangs, and even Moonblast or Steel Beam on MGLO. However, I still don't think Zamazenta is broken, between stuff like Pecharunt, Fluffy mons, Intimidate / Delta Stream Zapdos (which I think is very good), and—of course—Gholdengo it's not too hard to prep for Zamazenta. SoR IronPress is a really good and splashable wincon; it functions very similarly to Howl sets except it trades a bit of immediate power for snowball potential.


Gholdengo is absolutely ridiculous. I think the line between Gholdengo and Zamazenta as the top one is very blurred as both are about the same in terms of consistency and splashability. Ghold is truly ridiculous and able to do literally anything you need. Choice Scarf and Choice Specs are both very good and defensive Nasty Plot sets are unmatched when it comes to flexibility. Colbur Berry or Fluffy with Dazzling Gleam pretty much invalidates Roaring Moon as a check unless Ghold is already heavily chipped. Earth Eater with Colbur beats most traditional checks, only really losing to Fire-types and getting revenge killed by opposing Ghold. There's also WBB, Bulletproof, Fluffy, and really whatever you want to run, and it's all very insane.


Tusk is great, don't get me wrong, but it feels like it can struggle a lot. Fluffy is by far the best ability, but it and other defensive sets are very hindered by the lack of reliable recovery. The 4MSS is very strong with Tusk, as it's always giving up on some important tool. The lack of many good Stealth Rock users means that Tusk often has to slot them, in addition to the mandatory Rapid Spin. Offensive sets can struggle due to the limited defensive use (which is why Fluffy is still the best ability on offensive Tusk) but are nevertheless good mons, particularly Mold Breaker sets. Best set is bulky offensive Fluffy.


Still the most overrated mon in the meta. It's pretty good but nowhere near as good as most people will say it is. MGLO hasn't been good for a long time, once people started to run bulky dark resists as their Moon checks instead of stuff like Intimidate Corviknight it got a lot worse. Zamazenta being the best thing ever is also a major hindrance for Moon. Choice Scarf sets also can be very difficult to use because it needs to lock into Outrage to revenge kill many healthy threats, and struggles to revenge Zama which is a very crucial thing for a scarfer. RegenVest is solid imo but very flawed, and Fluffy DD is quite strong but unreliable.


Now we're getting to the really spicy takes. Ceruledge is the single most consistent wallbreaker in the metagame, followed by Specs Gholdengo and a sizable gap until you get to third place (which I'd probably say is either CB Zama or CB Tusk) because those two are head and shoulders above the competition. Nor is Ceruledge completely lacking defensive utility, as it's suprisingly bulky and the great typing allows it to soft-check opposing Fire-types like Iron Moth and Moltres, as well as Scream Tail; additionally packing one of the best forms of priority in the metagame and deterring CB Zamazenta from throwing out its STAB. But all of this stuff is common knowledge, and it isn't enough to fully explain why I view Ceruledge so highly. For that, you need to understand that I believe that the best and most consistent team archetype at the moment is offense / bulky offense, and that Ceruledge defines an entire style of offense. Ceruledge teams are built in a fundamentally different way than teams without it due to the utterly unmatched offensive prowess it has. And these teams are good, very very good. This is enough for me to rate Ceruledge so highly.


These mons are pretty good, aren't they?


I love this mon so much. As I said, offense is the best team style, and Landorus-T fits right at home on it. This guy is such a consistent rocker and pivot that it's frankly astounding that it's doesn't receive much praise. You should definitely be running Adamant and a lot of Attack EVs, because dear god base 145 Attack and STAB Earthquake is super powerful. With Smack Down, pretty much only physically defensive Manaphy and Earth Eater mons are able to reliably answer Lando, making it a phenomenal Stealth Rock user. Then there's more experimental sets, like the Fluffy Swords Dance set with max Speed that I ran to get to 95 GXE, as well as Choice Scarf Sword of Ruin which is a very solid scarfer that maintains a lot of the defensive use off of the sheer utility of its typing.


Choice Scarf Latios is the most consistent mon in the metagame at revenge killing threats. Maybe Zamazenta is a better mon that is also a revenge killer, and maybe Choice Scarf Roaring Moon is a better scarfer (it isn't), but nothing else has nearly as wide a reach as Latios when it comes to staring down an offensive threat and putting it in the ground. Hadron Engine-boosted Draco Meteor is an absolute drug of an attack capable of astounding damage calcs, and Latios backs it up with a variety of great traits like Psyshock to break RegenVests, what is practically a third STAB move in Thunderbolt to complement Draco and Psyshock, fast pivoting with Flip Turn, and the ability to cripple any dangerous mons with Trick. The defensive typing is quite helpful too, able to pivot into a variety of attacks and respond with the threat of a KO. Also, it can revenge kill Zamazenta (Moon in shambles.)


Good mon. Offensive PrimSea sucks, either use defensive or No Guard. Fully defensive sets are also great, especially Intimidate.


Choice Band is very meh, SD is scary as hell. Super threatening attacker that can get out of hand quickly, though it loses to Zamazenta.


Almost as overrated as Roaring Moon. Prankster is a crutch that doesn't solve many issues, and isn't even a great Zamazenta check because CB just 2HKOes. Intimidate is pretty good but still loses to most of the best physical attackers (Ceru, Tusk, Lando) though beating the #1 mon is a pretty great attribute. Itemless / Air Balloon / Eject Button are all bad because you are so much easier to overwhelm if taking hazards. Offensive sets are pretty shnasty (s/o Giagantic.)


I really can't decide whether Corviknight is overrated or underrated, considering how I see both a ton of hate and a ton of praise for it. I think it's alright, terrible as some sort of catch-all physical wall that a lot of people treat it as, solid as just another pivot in tandem with some good defensive partners. SpDef sets are neat too but I can't get behind them.


S'alright. Great into Gholdengo, loses to most of the other good special attackers.


It's like Lando-T if it traded threatening RegenVests for bullying IronPress Zamazenta and hitting Tusk a lot harder. Sadly the better trait of the two is being the really strong breaker.


Scary, but inconsistent. I like Specs Protean with Spikes quite a bit though.


Great defensive profile. Primsea is a good breaker. CM sets can be very tough to handle.

okay from now on I'm only talking about anything I think is particularly notable.


Gimmicky is mostly right about this guy, though she does still overrate it. Hadron AV is a good offensive special sponge that can be pretty threatening. Run Future Sight and pair it with Zama, shit goes hard. Double Dance is inconsistent and bad.


Typing is exactly as great as everyone knows it is. One of the best non-Assault Vest Regen mons. Movepool is great and annoying to answer reliably.


Agility Thundurus-T is a god damn monster. The meta has very few options for priority, so most teams need to rely on either living a hit or never letting it set up, or praying it misses Focus Blast, all not great options. Between Psychic, Grass Knot, and Dark Pulse as final coverage moves, it can pick and choose what is able to take a hit from it. Absolutely terrifying to face without specific answers.


Good alternative to IronPress Zamazenta. Scrappy sucks so I think most Heavy Slam IronPress Zama sets are better off as Zama-C.


Spikes HO is good, and Samurott is the best facilitator of it.


Yeah. I think it's that bad. Gholdengo outclasses it in almost every single scenario. WishTect sets are unbelievably passive, and pretty much every other set Scream Tail wants to run, Ghold can do it too, and it can do it better. The speed tier is frankly not that valuable when you look at the Pokemon that it gets the jump on: Latios, Iron Moth, Ogerpon, Sandy Shocks, and Garchomp. Most of those you either still lose to when you outspeed them, or you would win even if you were slower. Choice Scarf sets are mostly relegated to clicking Trick and then pretending like they still do something when they have an AV, and Ghold outclasses them. Choice Specs sets? Outclassed by Ghold. Calm Mind? Might I introduce you to my good friend Bulky Nasty Plot Gholdengo? Now you might say that Scream Tail is very good at stopping non-Heavy Slam Zamazenta, and that it can OHKO Roaring Moon, but Ghold is also really good into Zamazenta, and can also blow up Roaring Moon, either with Specs Make it Rain / Dazzling Gleam, or with Colbur Berry and Dazzling Gleam. tldr: ghold is insane and stail sucks.

 

[aim]

hello aaa, i am once again asking for cool teams that have done well. can dm or leave them on my smogon profile please or reply here. love the tier. ty!

 

[aim]

AAA it hasn’t been long since my last post but I am once again here asking for teams to try out the new Nat dex AAA. Ty for your awesome tier, i am glad it is expanding

 

[Hiusi guy]

AAA it hasn’t been long since my last post but I am once again here asking for teams to try out the new Nat dex AAA. Ty for your awesome tier, i am glad it is expanding

Idk if anyone has sent you any teams yet but asking the actual thread also helps.

AAA Thread 'National Dex Almost Any Ability'

Apr 30, 2023

Banner art by DreamPrince
National Dex Almost Any Ability is a format that lives up to its name; Pokemon in this metagame have access to "almost every ability" with the exception of a few that me, the council and the community deem broken or unhealthy. With new abilities at your disposal, new, old and even some unanticipated threats emerge from unexpected places!​

Council

Atha
LordBox
Iride

Banlist

Pokemon

hide

Annihilape...

• LordBox
• Replies: 152
• Forum: National Dex Alternative Metagames

• 
• 

It has existed for a while now so i dont think the expansion is very new, cool that you’re playing it tho

 

[aim]

ty!

 

[UT]

LordBox when are we suspecting Ceruledge.

Seriously what walls this thing.

 

[April]

UT No one-liners please.

regarding ceruledge

If you're forcing shit like itemless Gholdengo or Air Balloon Pecharunt onto teams only to often still beat them anyway, you are not a healthy metagame presence. Everything that should switch into this guy (PhysDef Manaphy, Primarina, WBB Birds/Steels/Darks) doesn't switch into it. Full stop, if you're not running a Well-Baked Body mon with a disposable/no item, you suck at switching into Ceruledge. What in this tier can safely switch in on both Poltergeist and Bitter Blade without being absolutely shit against everything else and without immediately dying to Shadow Sneak? This isn't a rhetorical question. What options do we have that are all of:

A) Actual switch-ins to both Poltergeist and Bitter Blade
B) Good sets outside of that role that aren't immediately overpowered by everything else in the tier
C) Not immediately dead to either Shadow Sneak, Shadow Claw, or Close Combat

This list isn't zero pokemon long, but it is not enough. Maybe it's just a skill issue, but teams just don't have many good options to defensively handle Ceruledge, and the few that we do have are easily exploitable. This isn't even getting into how Ceruledge can very easily completely flip the few bad matchups it has on its head. Prankster + Destiny Bond sets have reared their head, turning Ceruledge into one of the single best Pokemon in the entire metagame at forcing trades. Other options like Surge Surfer, Desolate Land, Magic Guard and Mold Breaker, while significantly rarer, also notable for their ability to completely negate typical counterplay to it and flip matchups on their head. You just build a team that can actually switch into Choice Band and out-offense Swords Dance? Now they're not taking Rocks/LO chip and living your Zamazenta's Crunch, or outspeeding your Choice Scarf users, or freely switching into your Primarina/Zapdos and OHKOing them. Now yes, these sets are uncommon and I do not mean to imply that these other options (aside from PrankBond, but fuck PrankBond) are what make Ceruledge broken on their own. Rather, I'm pointing out how a Pokemon which is already too hard to handle offensively can easily bypass the limited counterplay that does exist.

Ceruledge is worthy of a suspect. It's too powerful of an offensive threat with very limited defensive counterplay, and while it does have it's fair share of offensive counterplay, the existence of counterplay does not a balanced Pokemon make. It is the access to, reasonable usability, and consistency of that counterplay that makes a Pokemon broken, and Ceruledge has proven itself too hard to consistently handle.

 

[UT]

[13:14:18] %LordBox: i dont know if the meta is in an exactly great state, i have heard and seen a decent tiring of building the meta, which can attributed to a variety of reasons like the large gap in tours, stable meta and large time of consecutive tours that has somewhat burned out people. of course there are those that can continue to experiment and enjoy the meta but i am somewhat wary of survivors bias. i think offense/bo remains the only archetype that really feels particularly enjoyable to build and experiment around in and getting rid of ceruledge would give a little bit of leeway for slower archetypes even if BO/offense still remains dominant and i dont particularly see much of a downside (bar zama/deo-s being a bit more annoying ig but meh i doubt it matters much)
[13:14:23] #Giagantic: wah
[13:14:38] #UT: wall of text
[13:14:41] +prunyy: jumpscare
[13:14:47] %LordBox: yeah consider this my forum post(tm)

 

[fififlutters]

I'd also like to talk about Ceruledge. Right now, I find that Ceruledge feels somewhat overbearing - versus most teams, I feel like I can just throw it in and getting three kills throughout the game simply because people are having to use mons very vulnerable to Ceruledge to check the metagame - it's extremely easy to get Ceruledge in on doubles via forcing something out with a faster threat - Zamazenta, Roaring Moon, sometimes even Latios can do it. Ceruledge imo has generally forced the metagame to simply outspeed it or die in most instances - Pokemon like Landorus-Therian and Great Tusk are often forced to adjust to its speed tier, sacrificing their strength vs other threats in the metagame in order to be able to deal with the sheer pressure that Ceruledge offenses often force on the metagame. I do think that there are a few Pokemon people are underutilizing that prevent Ceruledge (especially Swords Dance) from making instant progress in Regenerator Ting-Lu and Unaware Ursaluna-BM, but these Pokemon are also shaky into 4 attacks variants of Ceruledge, and aren't always instant stops.

It would also seem like Ceruledge is a Pokemon that would be easy to pressure through hazard and chip damage, but the past few months has made it extensively clear that this is not really enough to stop Ceruledge from wrecking a team. Bitter Blade is already stupendously strong under Ceruledge's usual statline, but with a Life Orb and Adaptability / Sword of Ruin, it's usually doing enough damage (outside of outright immunities) that it often manages to recover enough health to the point where Stealth Rock damage is mitigated. In addition to this, Ceruledge is so often capable of taking a KO without very specific Pokemon being present that it often doesn't really matter that Ceruledge is taking serious damage from hazards, LO recoil, Rocky Helmet etc. Specific immunities to this Pokemon are only really affordable on particularly fat teams that actually have to take Ceruledge seriously, and from my experience, these mons aren't exactly good on fats anyway, which itself is already a somewhat difficult (but not unviable!) teamstyle to utilize in the current metagame. I would ideally like to see a suspect on this soon, I feel like removing this Pokemon would be a net positive for the metagame and would help set up a better metagame for OMPL.



I'd also like to talk about this troublesome fella. Ghold has recently been getting on my nerves. Specs sets I think are fine, although they're very dangerous wallbreakers, they're not particularly special compared to any of the other breakers (besides Ceruledge) that we have right now. Scarf is also fine, and that set is really nice and it makes me not want to talk about Ghold because losing that set would be so lame for building and would make other mons that are already somewhat borderline (i.e Zamazenta) even more frustrating. However, it's the immunity sets that I really think have made Gholdengo really frustrating to deal with at the moment, especially when item variance gets in the way. Colbur + Immunity Ghold has been a really reliable staple in my experience, being able to easily check Zamazenta and Roaring Moon, and, in the case of EE / Lev Ghold, eat Knock Offs from Tusk and Treads too. The problem with these sets IMO comes with the fact that fitting checks that get around all of the relevant immunities (Colbur / Fluffy, EE / Levitate, Well-Baked Body) is quite a strain on the builder and IMO forces teams to build around somewhat limiting team structures.

EE Ghold is, in particular, a major threat to the game at the moment because of how easily it sits on removal, and how those removal options that thwart EE Ghold have also become less useful. Tusk sets that aren't Scrappy have a terribly difficult time actually spinning on Ghold whilst it easily sets up in front of it, and Scrappy Tusk sets don't actually do a whole lot into the metagame at large. Offensive sets generally struggle to check much defensively, and defensive sets generally struggle to get anything done into the relevant mons - Ghold is quite easily capable of forcing a trade with Scrappy Tusk at high HP, and can quite easily get back in the game. Other sets like Fluffy can genuinely just sit on non Moldy, non EQ Tusk as well, making it very difficult for Tusks to realistically remove from them. Treads is in a similar boat, but at least has Volt Switch to pressure Ghold switches.

I'd also like to say that WBB Ghold is a bit toxic right now. Even getting a single predict wrong vs WBB Ghold can kinda force you into a losing position without specific special attackers, and the Fires that I feel are necessary for EE Ghold are kinda forced to pick between the two sets at preview (barring Heatran, which can just EP for a 2HKO). I don't think it's much of an issue right now given that WBB Ghold can't really enforce the same spinblocking that EE can (although Balloon sets aren't bad at all rn), but it's definitely very scary to face. In the coming months I will have my eyes set on Ghold, seeing what it can do in a tournament setting and how people adapt to it. Personally I think we've adapted to it quite well in the meantime between last OMPL and now, but it's definitely still feeling very dominant in teambuilding.


Other things I believe are worth talking about:



Spikes! They're great, but the setters have changed a lot since OMPL imo. I think Skarm and Shocks are both really mediocre spikers, they're both fairly easy to stop from throwing them out and generally speaking, Shocks doesn't really match up well enough into the metagame to even justify using at the moment. Skarm is a pretty solid blanket physical check, but it doesn't really spike all that well in practice - it's very easy to force out, very easy to punish, and generally speaking can't exactly stay in to throw out more spikes on many targets like Ting-Lu and Garchomp can.

As for the other spikers, I'd like to talk about Ting-Lu and Garchomp a bit right now. IMO Ting-Lu is possibly in the best spot that it's ever been in, with the metagame mainly centralizing around Ceruledge, Gholdengo and (somewhat) Latios as the strongest wallbreakers, Ting-Lu being able to pivot into all three of them is a pretty huge deal.

SFLO

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Agility

Probably the best HO spikes abuser right now. Glory is probably capable of explaining this one better than me, given he's used it against me so often now. Just know that if you don't have something like a Latios or priority, this guy is likely to be a pain when Spikes go up.



In regards to fats in the current metagame, I think they're alright. You do need to be paying attention a lot whilst playing them, but I do think that they're capable of easily pressuring more specifically made offenses, and are actually capable of competing with the top teamstyles in the metagame if played well. They're not actually that restrained other than needing a true Ceruledge check, and most of the fats that I've built are good against Ceruledge, but it always feels like they're unrefined right now, and it may be the case that it's just better to pick up some of the faster threats (MGLO Moon, Zamazenta, Adapt Scarf Ghold) and make a somewhat bulky balance with them instead. I've found the slower, almost stall-like fats to be somewhat matchup fishy, but I think that generally, this is the case for stall in modern gens too, and the matchup fishy playstyle may be easier to mitigate, either on ladder, where people probably aren't running the few breakers fats can't really handle (i.e Thundy-T),

 

[Glory]

Okay fine. I'll say something.


Put simply? I don't think it should be banned at the moment, though I am certainly open to changing my mind on this one.

Ceruledge is certainly one of the scariest breakers in the meta right now, I'd even go so far as to call it the scariest, but it's far from some plug-and-play button clicker. It's certainly a mon you have to keep in the back of your mind at every stage of the building process, but Ceruledge definitely isn't the only aspect of the meta like this; Zamazenta, Gholdengo, and Spikestack are all similar in this regard. Of those, I think Gholdengo is incredibly comparable to Ceruledge, as the way you deal with it isn't by slapping one counter and calling it a day because there isn't any really splashable catch-alls to either mon, the difference being that Ceruledge accomplishes this through sheer power rather than Gholdengo's set variety. I think that the biggest issue with Ceruledge is that the way people build teams is incredibly exploitable for Ceruledge, when it's very possible to deal with it without resorting to mediocre options that are primarily good into Ceruledge.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-815255
In this recent game in OM majors, both QT and Kinetic bring a team with multiple fodder mons for Ceruledge (3 from QT if not counting Zapdos and 4 from Kinetic) and only Roaring Moon as a ridiculously shaky check for Ceruledge.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-815320
Kinetic brings a team that's even more ruined by Ceruledge than the last, and this time he does load into Ceruledge. Even with pyu not using his Ceruledge to the best of its capabilities, it gets a KO and forces Pecharunt to sacrifice itself.

Now what does a team that's good into Ceruledge look like?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2281716969-xncz43kl1qy36h9dc9emuy7597bqrhcpw
On Rudi's team, Great Tusk, Zamazenta, and Roaring Moon all 1v1 and revenge kill Ceruledge, Gholdengo can live a Shadow Sneak and kill back, while Landorus either outspeeds and threatens Ceru, or has enough bulk to live a hit and respond with a kill, and Ceruledge can't come in on Swampert except on a prediction or a pivot, both of which can be outplayed. I'm not going to glaze myself any more but lag's team is also good into it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-804072
Lana's team has Landorus-T, Roaring Moon, EQ Iron Hands, and Kingambit. Ideally it can play around letting Ceru in on Corv and Deo sucks anyway so you're doing yourself a favor by letting Ceru kill with Sneak (for real though forcing Sneak is enough with Moon in the back).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-804872
O1V7O2X9O's team has Mana, Lando, Eject Button Pecharunt, Roaring Moon, and Zamazenta, all of which can deal with Ceruledge to an extent.

Then there's physdef Ting-Lu which is so good at dealing with Ceru that it deserves a special mention, and all of this is without dipping into specific stuff like WBB Kingambit, or Intimidate Great Tusk (good set btw), itemless shit like Intimidate Pecharunt or WBB Ghold, Unaware Blursa, and a few more things I can't remember off of the top of my head. Sure, CC Ceruledge can help with some of this stuff but is overall worse than SD at doing Ceruledge things, and is much easier to play around.

Ultimately it comes down to whether or not you think the measures to handle Ceruledge are reasonable enough, and I personally think they are. You usually are not handicapping yourself to beat Ceruledge.

If I didn't spend so much time on Ceruledge I would talk about more stuff now, but basically Thundy-T good and Zamazenta still best mon.