I feel like current gen UU looking like OU from older gens has more to do with there being too many options for players to choose between & the usage cutoff point not being able to encapsulate that. 90% of the Pokémon in UU like Dirge, Deo-S, Torn-T, Manaphy, Skarmory, Rotom-W, Meowscarada, Clodsire, Hydrapple, and more have strong OU niches with a healthy amount of customizability. Perhaps its familiarity differences, but I'd say building around UU Pokemon is arguably easier in OU than UU since the defensive Pokemon like Gking, Ting-Lu, Corv, Gliscor, Pecharunt, and more are able to blanket check a much wider swath of the metagame while providing a high degree of utility. The same applies for offensive Pokémon like Gambit, Wellspring, Tusk, etc.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I think this is another thing that doesn't get highlighted as much as it should: DLC2 has, in part because of such a high usage cutoff (I think it used to be 3.41% in previous gens but now it's 4.52%), been experiencing a constant low-tier Renaissance where you have a lot of very good mons in OU that aren't OU by usage. I'd imagine you'd have quite a few more of these non-OU mons actually be OU if that cutoff went back to the old days (NOT SAYING IT SHOULD).
See: Moltres, Tinkaton, Pecharunt, Zapdos, Weavile and Iron Crown, which all clawed their way out of UU, as well as all the mons you listed (some of whom were previously OU by usage), as well as the likes of G-Weezing, Lokix, Scizor, Latios, and Sinistcha which are all extremely legit, respected mons in the OU metagame that just aren't tiered OU by usage.
There are a LOT of non-OU mons that you need to take just as seriously as many of the actual OU mons. Hell, I'm pretty sure a good chunk of the shit at or above A- was UU previously.
I'm in full agreement here. The corollary is the threat list in SV OU is much deeper than it looks. Current usage stats have a vibe of ~40 "OU quality" mons and maybe ~80 or so "flavors of the month". It's possible to use just those 40 threats and win a ton of ladder matches and big name tournaments, but digging through the other 80 threats develops tier mastery. Those 80 threats in SV OU compared to any other previous gen tier are much higher quality and can absolutely swing a match as much or even more than clever Tera usage.
Anyone want to chime in on Electric terrain teams? It's a largely unexplored archetype. Besides myself I know of one other player using it.
The typical sentiment is that Pincurchin is useless which in all fairness it mostly is. It does serve as a decent spike setter, provides excellent utility with memento and has a decent move pool with access to multiple water moves.
Iron Leaves is a very threatening mon when equipped with life orb, picking up notable ohkos such as dragapult and ogerpon-w. With swords dance and access to wild Charge it is capable of breaking most stall team not running quagsire.
Valiant can run almost endless options from destiny bond, mixed, calm mind Tera Electric, LO with knock + shadow ball to 2hko glowking, skeledirge and gholdengo all of which are mons other Electric terrain abusers struggle against.
Iron treads has similar versatility even being able to run an offensive life orb set that can nuke flying types, primarina, ogerpon w, alomomola, rotom w and samurrot with super cell spinner, 2hko tusk, 60% ohko dnite through marvel scale and ohko lando t after intimidate.
Hawlucha is obviously very good as well but Electric terrain can really take it to the next level with Tera blast Electric even ohkoing offensive gholdengo after a single swords dance. It can also ohko moltres, alomomola, corviknight and many other common checks thanks to the terrain boost. The only mons generally capable of checking it are pecharunt, skeledirge, quagsire and physically defensive clodsire.
Iron moth can be more flexible given the free item slot. 4 moves assault vest can be fantastic acting as a decent darkrai switch which could otherwise be problematic since it outspeeds Iron Valiant. Terrain boosted Discharge also offers fantastic coverage in particular allowing it hit moltres and alomomola for super effective damage.
Iron Boulder is truly spectacular as well. Running a set such as swords dance, might cleavy, close combat, psycho cut it can be both a reliable revenge killer and threatening cleaner. It's speed tier is invaluable, especially against potential opposing Valiants you dont want to be forced to speed check with Hawlucha inconvenient.
Raging bolt can be a very good option as well with rising voltage and a boosted priority move.
There are also some neat mechanics that can be abused such as using booster energy on iron Valiant and factoring in terrain fading into your sweep. When the terrain fades, you will lose your +1 speed and instead gain +1 special attack if you've already setup a calm mind. This can be the difference between winning or losing quite often. Iron treads can do the same allowing him to break terrain with ice spinner and still maintain an attack boost from quark drive which could allow it to do massive damage to rillaboom. Trying to terrain war you.
I don't know if a more balanced type of team would be possible as ive only explored HO. However I do think the archetype could use a little more love from the player base. It's very cool and there are probably a lot of strategies waiting to be discovered with proper exploration.
The typical sentiment is that Pincurchin is useless which in all fairness it mostly is. It does serve as a decent spike setter, provides excellent utility with memento and has a decent move pool with access to multiple water moves.
Iron Leaves is a very threatening mon when equipped with life orb, picking up notable ohkos such as dragapult and ogerpon-w. With swords dance and access to wild Charge it is capable of breaking most stall team not running quagsire.
Valiant can run almost endless options from destiny bond, mixed, calm mind Tera Electric, LO with knock + shadow ball to 2hko glowking, skeledirge and gholdengo all of which are mons other Electric terrain abusers struggle against.
Iron treads has similar versatility even being able to run an offensive life orb set that can nuke flying types, primarina, ogerpon w, alomomola, rotom w and samurrot with super cell spinner, 2hko tusk, 60% ohko dnite through marvel scale and ohko lando t after intimidate.
Hawlucha is obviously very good as well but Electric terrain can really take it to the next level with Tera blast Electric even ohkoing offensive gholdengo after a single swords dance. It can also ohko moltres, alomomola, corviknight and many other common checks thanks to the terrain boost. The only mons generally capable of checking it are pecharunt, skeledirge, quagsire and physically defensive clodsire.
Iron moth can be more flexible given the free item slot. 4 moves assault vest can be fantastic acting as a decent darkrai switch which could otherwise be problematic since it outspeeds Iron Valiant. Terrain boosted Discharge also offers fantastic coverage in particular allowing it hit moltres and alomomola for super effective damage.
Iron Boulder is truly spectacular as well. Running a set such as swords dance, might cleavy, close combat, psycho cut it can be both a reliable revenge killer and threatening cleaner. It's speed tier is invaluable, especially against potential opposing Valiants you dont want to be forced to speed check with Hawlucha inconvenient.
Raging bolt can be a very good option as well with rising voltage and a boosted priority move.
There are also some neat mechanics that can be abused such as using booster energy on iron Valiant and factoring in terrain fading into your sweep. When the terrain fades, you will lose your +1 speed and instead gain +1 special attack if you've already setup a calm mind. This can be the difference between winning or losing quite often. Iron treads can do the same allowing him to break terrain with ice spinner and still maintain an attack boost from quark drive which could allow it to do massive damage to rillaboom. Trying to terrain war you.
I don't know if a more balanced type of team would be possible as ive only explored HO. However I do think the archetype could use a little more love from the player base. It's very cool and there are probably a lot of strategies waiting to be discovered with proper exploration.
They're definitely unexplored and better than most give them credit for but the shared weaknesses of some of the better quark drive users make for some awkward builds outside of pure offense. They can work on non HO teams though.
I'll chime in and add a few sets I've experimented with that felt very good under terrain support.
Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
Defense boosting Iron hands is kinda silly. It's bulkier than max def Dondozo under terrain so it's tanking pretty much any physical attacker. This spread isn't 2hko'd by Jolly Tusks's Headlong and just murks it with IP or DP if it comes in on a SD. Same with any Lando and non stab EQs just bounce off.
Iron Treads @ Leftovers / Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 16 Def
16 Def Ivs ensure you get the boost for Sdef under terrain which makes for a pretty decent special wall.
I also like Tpunch Meow under terrain, 2hkos Corv which is nice for a mon it generally struggles with.
the main issue is that pinchurchin is really awful and the payoff just isn't worth the support you have to give it. Although I do wonder if a semi electric terrain archetype could be decent, maybe you could just stick electric terrain on a mon that can fit it, like zapdos, raging bolt, val, or whatever
I wouldn't stick Electric Terrain on Zapdos or Raging Bolt since they lose to Ting-Lu under normal circumstances and give it a free switch-in to your team. I believe if you're going for a semi-Electric Terrain archetype, Electric Terrain would go on a mon that outright beats Ting-Lu and has good bulk, such as Iron Hands.
I mean yeah, but atleast it could give them something to contribute even if they can't break past lu. If you want a user that can threaten lu, ival would be a good canidate.
Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Electric Terrain
- Moonblast
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
basic idea is you can wallbreak with life orb and then potentially sweep late game by using eterrain to get a speed boost.
But....no one is running Quagsire? Also Iron Leaves definitely beats Quagsire given the fact that it has grass stab. Did you mean Clodsire because that is a worse matchup for Iron Leaves in theory.
Personally, I think wasting a turn setting up terrain is a terrible idea. Terrain provides less benefits than weather, so it is even less ideal to use than rain dance or sunny day were in past gens. Easily the best was gen 4 Kingdra (imo) and even it has plenty of struggles like taunt and especially sand stream. I might be wrong on this point though, so I do encourage the experimentation. I just don't see it going super well.
One funny tech I saw in the Showdown chats was E-terrain Thundurus (
) as with Prankster, getting the Terrain up is an inevitability and it still has pivoting tools like Volt Switch/U-turn/Taunt/T-wave/Knock so it can still make progress outside of being a terrain bot. Probably still un-ideal given how you still have to take a turn to manually get the Terrain up, but could be neat in some E-terrain HO builds.
) as with Prankster, getting the Terrain up is an inevitability and it still has pivoting tools like Volt Switch/U-turn/Taunt/T-wave/Knock so it can still make progress outside of being a terrain bot. Probably still un-ideal given how you still have to take a turn to manually get the Terrain up, but could be neat in some E-terrain HO builds.
On electric terrain, I've been trying Modest Specs Iron Valiant to sort of emulate what Modest Specs Wake is to sun. It definitely needs support from teammates like speed control and a pivot, but the damage is hilarious. The best electric terrain team I've used is sg pokemon's RMT.
Iron Valiant @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere
Iron Valiant @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere
only issue here is you either give up terrain extender for boots or get cooked by rocksOne funny tech I saw in the Showdown chats was E-terrain Thundurus (
realistically w. eterrain in general you're going to be forced to use a shitmon to some capacity so you're already limiting yourself to 4 good breakers + treads— but you're forced to stack future paradoxes or electric types & non quark drive/electric type mons get basically 0 benefit from the terrain outside of Lucha which is niche at best. basically you're hard committing to an inconsistent style whose breakers (other than maybe val and moth) aren't even rly the best to begin with. just not worth running IMO
even a "soft eterrain mode" forces you to use a shitmon OR a bad set on a good mon which is basically the same thing in practice
Electric Terrain teams struggle to be at all halfway, or even partway consistent and a major reason why aside from how useless Pincurchin is, is the fact that these teams have extremely minimal defensive backing at all. Many of the Pokémon you’d think to throw on these teams just stack weaknesses with one another and don’t really check much individually.
It’s a very all or nothing type of structure because you can’t rely on keeping Pincurchin alive, given it’s so exploitable and easy to punish or just knock out. This means you have to make just about every call right to maximize the efficiency of each turn, as dropping even one turn of momentum is really potentially ruinous.
Structure wise, Valiant and Pincurchin are non negotiable so you only have four free slots. Technically three because you realistically want hazard control so your opponent isn’t just setting a bunch up to put your threats in range of being revenge killed or just picked off. Also should point out, but setting Terrain is also allowing opposing Valiant to abuse it and potentially just snipe your team. It’s pretty undesirable to be put in that position, requiring an anti-Val tech which further limiting team options especially because there isn’t really anything short of Iron Moth I can think of that can fit on these teams and doesn’t drop all momentum switching in. Which leaves it like…
Mandatory: Pincurchin and Valiant
Really Want: Anti-Val Pokémon, hazard control
In essence these teams are too rigid and inflexible to build around, and not even worth the payoff. You’d get by better just using quark mons on regular teams with Booster Energy or another item.
It’s a very all or nothing type of structure because you can’t rely on keeping Pincurchin alive, given it’s so exploitable and easy to punish or just knock out. This means you have to make just about every call right to maximize the efficiency of each turn, as dropping even one turn of momentum is really potentially ruinous.
Structure wise, Valiant and Pincurchin are non negotiable so you only have four free slots. Technically three because you realistically want hazard control so your opponent isn’t just setting a bunch up to put your threats in range of being revenge killed or just picked off. Also should point out, but setting Terrain is also allowing opposing Valiant to abuse it and potentially just snipe your team. It’s pretty undesirable to be put in that position, requiring an anti-Val tech which further limiting team options especially because there isn’t really anything short of Iron Moth I can think of that can fit on these teams and doesn’t drop all momentum switching in. Which leaves it like…
Mandatory: Pincurchin and Valiant
Really Want: Anti-Val Pokémon, hazard control
In essence these teams are too rigid and inflexible to build around, and not even worth the payoff. You’d get by better just using quark mons on regular teams with Booster Energy or another item.
Nope I meant quagsire. Iron Leaves has no reason to run grass stab. I'm running psyblade, wild Charge, close combat giving me unresisted coverage with the exceptions of opposing Iron Leaves and Lati@s. Iron Leaves easily beats clodsire with psyblade. It 3hkos defensive quagsire but it can beat me with toxic barring a crit.
That's if you use Speed-boosting Iron Leaves. Attack-boosting Iron Leaves actually 2HKOes Quagsire if its HDB and a 96.1% to 2HKO if it has Leftovers.
252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Leaves Psyblade (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Electric Terrain: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Leaves Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 218-258 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Leaves Psyblade (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is also good damage on Dondozo too, 2HKOing after a bit of chip. If you can get 25% chip on Dondozo, then Psyblade into Wild Charge 2HKOes it.
But the real question is why use Iron leaves when you can use Ogerpon-Wellspring, which is faster, stronger, immune to Water-type attacks, and all around more useful? Speed-boosting Iron Leaves is very lacking in KO power.
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I run life orb to give it more power. It is able to OHKO many mons neutrally including Waterpon. It also manages a 2hko on dondozo with it, not that dozo is problematic given the terrain prevents him from resting off any damage. Leaves also lures in gholdengo and heavily chunks it or even outright ohkos it with +2 wild Charge depending on the set. This is incredibly valuable because ghold is able to shutdown many of the quark drives thanks to its bulk and typing combination providing resists to a lot of coverage they run.
I think Leaves provides several advantages over waterpon. Firstly, it has superior coverage to even play rough variants of waterpon. Secondly the 3 moves its running are all 117-120 base power fighting, psychic and electric moves. It has a lot more staying power than ogerpon since it can 2hko dnite while taking very little from +1 espeed with its superior bulk, it can also Tera fighting and eliminate gambit if its threatening to sucker. It matches up a lot better into dragons than waterpon in particular.
It can also threaten to ohko virtually the entire tier with a Swords dance save for a few unaware mons.
The only advantage I could see using ogerpon over it would be the fact that ivy Cudgel doesn't make contact and therefore it doesn't fear as much from moltres burn.
Electric Terrain might be a meme in OU -- but it really shines in lower tiers. Pinchurchin becomes less of a liability because it can provide more than enough impact by laying hazards and starting terrain. The sweepers Electric Terrain enables don't have to boost their power to get on the same level as other SV OU titans. They can boost their power to overwhelming levels without overwhelming opposing resistance.
(More to come in later posts as I experiment more with my Electric Terrain team in lower tiers.)
(More to come in later posts as I experiment more with my Electric Terrain team in lower tiers.)
Pincurchin can do this in OU with water coverage, otherwise its not able to lay spikes frequently due to inviting tusk in for free.
I think team composition is the hard part for OU. I would imagine in lower tiers the sheer power is probably enough to break through and outpace most.
In OU you're forced to run valiant and either boulder or Hawlucha. Iron treads/tusk/ace/hatt will take another slot. With urchin, valiant, hazard control and boulder/lucha you only have two remaining slots to try to add flexibility. Av moth is a nice darkrai switch in while also being offensively threatening. Raging bolt/Iron Leaves/alolan raichu are almost mandatory to give you a chance vs rain. It really is hard to fit everything and very hard to make room for things like SR. Running treads without super cell is a major momentum drag vs things like corv which then slow pivot in something for free. Other sets feel too utilitarian and dont provide much help to me offensively in most situations. I think tusk maybe able to provide enough all around utility to be worth sacrificing some momentum given it's ability to soak priority moves and help my dnite/gambit mu.
I think its just a matter of figuring out the perfect recipe for ou
You could run choice band in theory and then you could use leaf blade or trailblaze if you go for attack with quark drive. Or if you are worried about psychic types that much you can run x scissor or megahorn (which is more powerful but less accurate). You could even run life orb if you go with the attack boost because surely at that point you are strong enough to not need swords dance.
Its a silly colorful playstyle to mess with on an alt and can be lots of fun with a good matchup, however its not that good since the setter is surprisingly frail for such a slow lead due its 48 hp ruining its good defenses, meaning even hatterene has better bulk than it, which makes it unreliable at coming in to reset terrain or doing much outside of terrain (despite this pokemon has spikes, toxic spikes and recover) so its hard to viably run a playstyle with such an achilles heel for a setter.
Pincurchin is so crippling for electric terrain as a playstyle as even if its fully invested in physical or special defense to take hits without getting flipped over on its head (still takes like 35-40% from neutral hits), its still going to be glass cannon levels of frail on the other despite being slow, it also doesn’t help that many abusers end up stacking weaknesses, giving the playstyle even less defensive standing
What do y'all think of the hybrid utility/breakers that have been popping up recently? Seems like a lot of the more dangerous offensive mons have found more success using slower-paced sets in this bulkier meta. Dropping some sets and variations I've seen and tried myself.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Encore / Taunt / Spikes
- Synthesis / Horn Leech / Knock Off
Because Wogerpon gets so much mileage out of just Ivy Cudgel and U-Turn, it can use its huge support movepool to fill holes in bulky offense or balance structures. Synthesis especially makes this mon so much harder to beat with chip damage alone. It's also an amazing Knock user in that its already-limited checks become even flimsier answers when they're forced to take hazard damage. One thing about Wellspring that I think a lot of people underrate is its defensive utility, and this set really leans into that. Pair it with a Fairy type to stymie rain and sun alike. Weak to Alomomola balances? Throw this guy on there. Tera Water isn't clicked too often, but in conjunction with Synthesis, it can function like an Assault Vest pivot that still has access to status moves.
Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off / Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
I got flamed for using greedy Darkrai (Knock+Wisp) until I started seeing it in tournaments. Good, reliable (and haxy) two-move coverage in Dark Pulse and Ice Beam allow Rai to force progress without relying upon Nasty Plot alone to break. Upon repeated switch-ins to Knock and Wisp, sturdy special sponges like Ting-Lu and Tinkaton can be pushed into range for other special threats like Raging Bolt or Gholdengo (or even Darkrai itself) to break through fat structures. Sort of like Boots Dragapult mixed with Weavile. Emergency Wisps, item removal, and a check to problematic mons like Gholdengo, Pecharunt, Gliscor, Lando, and anything that hates getting burned.
Deoxys-Speed @ Colbur Berry / Red Card / Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost / Dark / Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe // 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psychic Noise
- Knock Off
- Superpower / Ice Beam / Pain Split / Taunt
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Pain Split / Recover
Deoxys-Speed has been emerging as a useful jack-of-all-trades utility mon on bulky offense or even what I see as hyper-bulky offense (think Red Card Ting-Lu hazard stack) structures. A common theme here is that Pokemon that can make progress with limited offensive moves can afford to slot more utility moves. For Deoxys, Psychic Noise + Knock fulfill that purpose. The last two moves can be really anything you need. If you can't afford to give tempo to Dark types, run Superpower. Need hazards? Take your pick. Ice Beam for Glisc and Lando, Pain Split to stick around and also deal damage, Taunt to stallbreak. Deoxys also has a really versatile item slot that I find fun to experiment with. Colbur to eat a Dark move from HRott or Darkrai, Red Card to shuffle opposing offense, Boots for longevity vs. hazard stack, Helmet to punish weak U-Turns. Just a super flexible mon in general, not even mentioning its collection of viable Tera types.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Encore / Taunt / Spikes
- Synthesis / Horn Leech / Knock Off
Because Wogerpon gets so much mileage out of just Ivy Cudgel and U-Turn, it can use its huge support movepool to fill holes in bulky offense or balance structures. Synthesis especially makes this mon so much harder to beat with chip damage alone. It's also an amazing Knock user in that its already-limited checks become even flimsier answers when they're forced to take hazard damage. One thing about Wellspring that I think a lot of people underrate is its defensive utility, and this set really leans into that. Pair it with a Fairy type to stymie rain and sun alike. Weak to Alomomola balances? Throw this guy on there. Tera Water isn't clicked too often, but in conjunction with Synthesis, it can function like an Assault Vest pivot that still has access to status moves.
Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off / Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
I got flamed for using greedy Darkrai (Knock+Wisp) until I started seeing it in tournaments. Good, reliable (and haxy) two-move coverage in Dark Pulse and Ice Beam allow Rai to force progress without relying upon Nasty Plot alone to break. Upon repeated switch-ins to Knock and Wisp, sturdy special sponges like Ting-Lu and Tinkaton can be pushed into range for other special threats like Raging Bolt or Gholdengo (or even Darkrai itself) to break through fat structures. Sort of like Boots Dragapult mixed with Weavile. Emergency Wisps, item removal, and a check to problematic mons like Gholdengo, Pecharunt, Gliscor, Lando, and anything that hates getting burned.
Deoxys-Speed @ Colbur Berry / Red Card / Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost / Dark / Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe // 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psychic Noise
- Knock Off
- Superpower / Ice Beam / Pain Split / Taunt
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Pain Split / Recover
Deoxys-Speed has been emerging as a useful jack-of-all-trades utility mon on bulky offense or even what I see as hyper-bulky offense (think Red Card Ting-Lu hazard stack) structures. A common theme here is that Pokemon that can make progress with limited offensive moves can afford to slot more utility moves. For Deoxys, Psychic Noise + Knock fulfill that purpose. The last two moves can be really anything you need. If you can't afford to give tempo to Dark types, run Superpower. Need hazards? Take your pick. Ice Beam for Glisc and Lando, Pain Split to stick around and also deal damage, Taunt to stallbreak. Deoxys also has a really versatile item slot that I find fun to experiment with. Colbur to eat a Dark move from HRott or Darkrai, Red Card to shuffle opposing offense, Boots for longevity vs. hazard stack, Helmet to punish weak U-Turns. Just a super flexible mon in general, not even mentioning its collection of viable Tera types.
I think all of these are very annoying to deal with. In this hazard spam metagame, Knock Off may as well be a OHKO move and very few Pokémon want to tank it, especially against Pokémon with Ice Coverage.
I will say that to me, Ogerpon-W feels a bit more manageable because it can't hold boots. However, Boots Rai, Deoxys-S, Weavile, and Meowscarada are pretty tough to handle imo. Even mons like Knock Tusk, Dogi, or Treads can feel annoying to handle. And of Course, Gliscor is probably the most difficult to handle of then all.
For other mons, I like Spikes Meow compared to Ogerpon-W just because of Boots and its STAB being Knock Off, making it an easier click compared to Ogerpon-W. Weavile has situational defensive utility and feels extremely difficult to deal with in end-games. Other mons like Ogerpon-C and Chesnaught have additional utilities they can compress with Spikes as well + some good defensive utility and recovery, so I'd imagine they are quite good at the role. Lastly, despite having some 4MSS, I feel serp could play the long game with Glare + Knock like Darkrai if it wanted to... though sacrificing Tera Blast in the offense MU makes it less worth it imo.
I had a lot of fun using manual electric terrain a while back. Absolutely sucked, but fun.
Main setter was Blissey, the idea being she sucks at making progress anyway, so your progress might as well be investing in terrain. Used defensive Iron Hands with slow volt switch and terrain as a backup setter/pivot.
Manual terrain felt fine, the theory seemed to work out. The main problem was that Valiant, Moth and Boulder don't do enough damage even with the terrain boost. Rising Voltage Raging Bolt was great though. I wasn't brave enough to go full terrain mode with Iron Thorns stab though.
Main setter was Blissey, the idea being she sucks at making progress anyway, so your progress might as well be investing in terrain. Used defensive Iron Hands with slow volt switch and terrain as a backup setter/pivot.
Manual terrain felt fine, the theory seemed to work out. The main problem was that Valiant, Moth and Boulder don't do enough damage even with the terrain boost. Rising Voltage Raging Bolt was great though. I wasn't brave enough to go full terrain mode with Iron Thorns stab though.
Would a Talon/Lokix/Tusk/Corv/Alo/wake team work?
The ideas for talon and lokix to chip down and revenge kill with priority brave bird/ wing beat and tinted impression as well as gain momentum with banded u-turns. Both Lokix and Talon gets destroyed by hazard so we have booster speed tusk and corv for hazard removal. Corv and alo are slow pivots to bring lokix and talon since they are both squishy. Alo wish passes to talon to keep it healthy and in gale wings. It ridiculous hp stat allows it heal talon to full most times. Wake is here as a late game clean-up and a way through garg,molt,dozo. kingambit lowk looks like it owns this team though
https://pokepast.es/74aa4cfaf47cbdb5
The ideas for talon and lokix to chip down and revenge kill with priority brave bird/ wing beat and tinted impression as well as gain momentum with banded u-turns. Both Lokix and Talon gets destroyed by hazard so we have booster speed tusk and corv for hazard removal. Corv and alo are slow pivots to bring lokix and talon since they are both squishy. Alo wish passes to talon to keep it healthy and in gale wings. It ridiculous hp stat allows it heal talon to full most times. Wake is here as a late game clean-up and a way through garg,molt,dozo. kingambit lowk looks like it owns this team though
https://pokepast.es/74aa4cfaf47cbdb5
the biggest issue with my issue with this core is how blatantly weak it is to waterpon. Corv can check it, but its incredibly shaky at best and between forced locks into first impression and alo being alo, pon is inevitably get a LOT of free turns vs this kind of structureWould a Talon/Lokix/Tusk/Corv/Alo/wake team work?
The ideas for talon and lokix to chip down and revenge kill with priority brave bird/ wing beat and tinted impression as well as gain momentum with banded u-turns. Both Lokix and Talon gets destroyed by hazard so we have booster speed tusk and corv for hazard removal. Corv and alo are slow pivots to bring lokix and talon since they are both squishy. Alo wish passes to talon to keep it healthy and in gale wings. It ridiculous hp stat allows it heal talon to full most times. Wake is here as a late game clean-up and a way through garg,molt,dozo. kingambit lowk looks like it owns this team though
https://pokepast.es/74aa4cfaf47cbdb5