would max def torn or hat help? also thinking about amonguss since it has speed control in stun spore, toxic if ogperpon teras and sludge bomb if it doesnt and foul play to punish sd also absorbs t-spikes which is nice
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
they would "help" but not enough. Pecharunt is probably the most splashable pon check that is consistently reliable, go tera dragon or grass if you need too
These are great. I really appreciate how they always manage to make progress and are difficult for balanced structures to handle.
In fact, the concept of breaking power + utility mons always existed with slower stuff like Heatran, but I feel like Deo-S, utility Woger and Darkrai are especially effective because they're also fast.
They kinda fit into the same category as Boots Wake, Valiant or Tealpon, though I particularly find Wake and Valiant a bit worse.
Curious to see how WCoP ends up shaping the meta.
The hybrid trend is not a new one. It's a response to the deeper depth of knowledge required to succeed at higher levels as players have improved over time. Standard thinking a decade ago was "I need a physical sweeper so I'll use the best one on the VR. Then I'll add a special sweeper. Then a wall, some revenge killers, and a hazard remover, and call it a day." This type of thinking does work even at higher levels of play -- until it doesn't. The shift came from players waking up and realizing the teams that worked weeks ago get smoked by something they have never seen before, and then having that same experience repeat month after month. In order to fulfill both the "standard thinking" requirements and cover the new threats, players turned to hybrid sets as their only option.
One of my favorite building mantras is "moves determine the role, not vice versa." This comes from a deeper mental model that originates at the turn level. Each turn has a maximum of maybe 10 choices (4 moves, 5 switches, one Tera). When every turn matters like it does in SV OU, hybrid sets optimize by maximizing the utility of each of those options. The thinking then changes to "what physical sweeper can I use" to "ok now I see that the top metagame threats are Great Tusk, Kingambit, and Iron Valiant. Can I run a moveset or pokemon that covers as many of those options as possible, even if that isn't considered viable?" It's not contrarian just to be contrarian. It's contrarian because of evidence it's actually better than consensus. SV OU really rewards that level of thinking because momentum changes so often that players have to maximize games at the turn level, and hybrid sets allow for just that.
One of my favorite building mantras is "moves determine the role, not vice versa." This comes from a deeper mental model that originates at the turn level. Each turn has a maximum of maybe 10 choices (4 moves, 5 switches, one Tera). When every turn matters like it does in SV OU, hybrid sets optimize by maximizing the utility of each of those options. The thinking then changes to "what physical sweeper can I use" to "ok now I see that the top metagame threats are Great Tusk, Kingambit, and Iron Valiant. Can I run a moveset or pokemon that covers as many of those options as possible, even if that isn't considered viable?" It's not contrarian just to be contrarian. It's contrarian because of evidence it's actually better than consensus. SV OU really rewards that level of thinking because momentum changes so often that players have to maximize games at the turn level, and hybrid sets allow for just that.
IDK about you, but I’ve been seeing alot of offense mons on ladder lately. I’m seeing more Glimmoras, Cinderaces, and Hatterenes. I could not give an explaination, but if anyone else can, I’d be interested in hearing what led to this a meta shift.
Hatterene is pretty obvious. Ting-Lu is busted and Hatterene is good at stopping it from mindlessly clicking hazards. New tech like Pain split gives it some additional depth to its game, and AV is honestly pretty annoying to handle due to versatile coverage, utility, and damage output.
Cinderace is always gonna be decent. Good Fire Resist that can tank a wisp barring like, Dirge, Mola, and Garganacl are still tough to come by, it is solid at redirecting hazards, and it can be surprisingly tough to actually punish it for just spamming U-Turn barring making some sussy plays like swapping Corv in on Turn. Its U-turn is also strong with Libero.
Glimm is just pretty annoying, speed tier is in annoying spot where its faster than some key mons like Ghold and Samu so it can nuke them for big damage with moves like Earth Power or Meteor beam, Mortal beam is hard to stop because most Steels don't want to actually want to expend the resources to check it (Corv does low damage and takes like, 40 from Power Gem, Ghold doesn't wanna lose Balloon or get chipped by EP, same with gambit). And, over course, lower Iron Crown usage is good for it.
Cinderace is always gonna be decent. Good Fire Resist that can tank a wisp barring like, Dirge, Mola, and Garganacl are still tough to come by, it is solid at redirecting hazards, and it can be surprisingly tough to actually punish it for just spamming U-Turn barring making some sussy plays like swapping Corv in on Turn. Its U-turn is also strong with Libero.
Glimm is just pretty annoying, speed tier is in annoying spot where its faster than some key mons like Ghold and Samu so it can nuke them for big damage with moves like Earth Power or Meteor beam, Mortal beam is hard to stop because most Steels don't want to actually want to expend the resources to check it (Corv does low damage and takes like, 40 from Power Gem, Ghold doesn't wanna lose Balloon or get chipped by EP, same with gambit). And, over course, lower Iron Crown usage is good for it.
A lot more 'nites on high ladder nowadays are foregoing parts of the classic Boots + Extreme Speed combo for alternative sweeping options. Moveset stats illustrate that Boots usage has dropped a decent chunk (~80% boots usage in January to ~67% in April, extreme speed going from ~80% as well in January/February to ~60% now), and I suspect usage will continue to decline in the May stats.
'Nite on offense really likes being able to run an item other than boots, lefties for the bulkier roost sets, dice for blim, lum for status (usually on adamant as pult can outspeed you at +1 and click wisp), spell tag/sharp beak for tera blast, or even band. These sets need support so multiscale stays intact, and hatt/ace are a lot more consistent than tusk or treads at this task (corv/geezing are not offense mons). Longevity issues aren't a concern for offense as you rarely need to keep them around, and you only need rocks off as it ignores spikes anyway.
The meta at high ladder is centralizing around 'Nite. It has too many sets that are completely undecipherable from team preview (e.g. if its paired with Hatt, it's probably not boots, but it could be any of the sets I listed above). The higher usage of teammates like Hatt and Ace instead of the traditional pairings of Lu/Ghold/Tusk show players are using it less for its strong priority/defensive profile and more for its offensive capabilities.
Yea that's part of the reason I think Dirge is nice rn. Handles a lot of the BS nite sets + other guys like Zama which can be troublesome if running fake checks. It's not perfect at it, but it does a solid enough job.
This is coming from a dirge hater btw... It's not a good since when this mon is good (see goug meta).
i think if you were gonna do smth like this you'd have to structure it a bit differentlyWould a Talon/Lokix/Tusk/Corv/Alo/wake team work?
The ideas for talon and lokix to chip down and revenge kill with priority brave bird/ wing beat and tinted impression as well as gain momentum with banded u-turns. Both Lokix and Talon gets destroyed by hazard so we have booster speed tusk and corv for hazard removal. Corv and alo are slow pivots to bring lokix and talon since they are both squishy. Alo wish passes to talon to keep it healthy and in gale wings. It ridiculous hp stat allows it heal talon to full most times. Wake is here as a late game clean-up and a way through garg,molt,dozo. kingambit lowk looks like it owns this team though
https://pokepast.es/74aa4cfaf47cbdb5
i would start by replacing walking wake with hex pult, it gives your team some much needed speed control and a wisp option into stuff like woger or even gambit
additionally, i don't think you really need talonflame here & the team is definitely lacking a wincon, i would trade out talonflame for somthing like a curse garg
i think the tusk set is also a little awkward here, you really don't need booster on a bulkier team, i would go rocky helmet w. headlong/spin/ice spinner/rocks because rn you also don't have rocks
not 100% on the changes but the tusk set + the wake and talonflame slots are definitely wrong, would also go boots mola here but if helmet has been useful it's probs fine
I think people should start using Rotom-Wash
- Good typing and immunity that helps checking Tusk, Lando-T, Treads and Ting
- Status move to cripple fast demons like Pult or Krai
- Pain Split to wear down some walls
- Volt Switch for pivot
- No need for Boots because it’s immune to Spikes anyway
- Good typing and immunity that helps checking Tusk, Lando-T, Treads and Ting
- Status move to cripple fast demons like Pult or Krai
- Pain Split to wear down some walls
- Volt Switch for pivot
- No need for Boots because it’s immune to Spikes anyway
The only issues with it is the fact that it struggles into a certain icy dragon and has lowish base up that you definitely do notice sometimes
Just a couple of questions I had to get some discussion going
Why the lack of levitate users in OU?
Also, why do you guys feel so many Mons can go without mosty using their ability in this gen more than any other Gen (Darkrai, Paradox forms when they aren't using Booster Energy/Drought/Eterrain just to name a few)?
Why the lack of levitate users in OU?
Also, why do you guys feel so many Mons can go without mosty using their ability in this gen more than any other Gen (Darkrai, Paradox forms when they aren't using Booster Energy/Drought/Eterrain just to name a few)?
1. I think because most Levitate mons don't have the stats to keep up with the meta. Also ground immunity isn't hard to find atm.
2. They make up with extremely min maxing statlines and good movepool.
Because there is a lack of levitators that are viable, these viable levitators consist of the lati twins, rotom wash, cresselia, certain sets of galarian weezing and hydreigon, anything else is either D rank viability or not worth using without severe team support. It also doesn’t help that Gengar was nerfed by losing the ability for seemingly no reason (base Gengar was not broken in singles, doubles or in playthroughs), it would have had a decent niche with the ability and may have still been the user of the ability.
Best use of Levitators is using Tera Steel in order to wall Gliscor, most Kyurems, most Tusks (careful with CC or Temper Flare), most Glowkings, Ting Lu (except Payback, but that one is pretty rare),some Enamorus, some Nites, some Valiants, Pecharunt, Treads, Lando, Clodsire and Glimmora. This is a lot, but you have to take into account that you need Tera for this, and probably do it very early in the game, which conditions the rest of it. So, in practice you cant just slap any Levitator on a team and call it a day, you will have to build a team in which 5 of the Mons wont be using Tera in half of the battles.
Been messing around with Serperior on bulky offense because I'm always desperate for more Ogerpon checks and there are so few good Grass type options in general. I feel like everyone knows now that the sweeper sets are far too committal and inconsistent, so I built a set that taps into its disruptive capabilities.
Serperior (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Poison / Steel / Ghost
EVs: 200 HP / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Glare
- Taunt / Synthesis
This Serperior set is annoying as all hell. Your opponent is forced into Grass resistances to stop you from dealing too much damage with Leaf Storms, but instead of using this pressure to get a sweep, you hinder these switch-ins for the rest of the battle with Knock Off and/or paralysis. These Knocks and Glares can hit really high-value targets who are otherwise difficult to nail down, like the Kanto birds, Glowking, and Pecharunt. Removing the Rocky Helmet from Corviknight, or the Balloon from Gholdengo is also a big boon for Pokemon like Dragonite. Taunt only adds to this disruption, stopping things like status moves, recovery, or Glowking's Chilly Reception, but you can run Synthesis if you want it to stick around a bit longer.
The EVs here allow Serp to eat one U-Turn + an Ivy Cudgel from Ogerpon-Wellspring, as well as other one-off powerful hits like Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor from full. You're actually using Serp for its base typing here, so Tera is not too high value, but you can swap them around based on what you might need an emergency check for. Because of Glare, if Serp outspeeds or can live a hit, it is basically a one-time check for anything.
I've been testing this team down below, and I'm really happy with how Serperior sets up Dragonite and Pecharunt to break fatter structures. Serp really helps Alo especially, since it's basically Ogerpon food. HRott here for Spikes, Ghost resist, and with Glare and Knock from Serp, a pretty decent breaker. Nothing amazing, but a decent example of how Serp is a niche option to ward off Ogerpon for fat teams without being a dead-weight Tera sink.
Serperior (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Poison / Steel / Ghost
EVs: 200 HP / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Glare
- Taunt / Synthesis
This Serperior set is annoying as all hell. Your opponent is forced into Grass resistances to stop you from dealing too much damage with Leaf Storms, but instead of using this pressure to get a sweep, you hinder these switch-ins for the rest of the battle with Knock Off and/or paralysis. These Knocks and Glares can hit really high-value targets who are otherwise difficult to nail down, like the Kanto birds, Glowking, and Pecharunt. Removing the Rocky Helmet from Corviknight, or the Balloon from Gholdengo is also a big boon for Pokemon like Dragonite. Taunt only adds to this disruption, stopping things like status moves, recovery, or Glowking's Chilly Reception, but you can run Synthesis if you want it to stick around a bit longer.
The EVs here allow Serp to eat one U-Turn + an Ivy Cudgel from Ogerpon-Wellspring, as well as other one-off powerful hits like Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor from full. You're actually using Serp for its base typing here, so Tera is not too high value, but you can swap them around based on what you might need an emergency check for. Because of Glare, if Serp outspeeds or can live a hit, it is basically a one-time check for anything.
I've been testing this team down below, and I'm really happy with how Serperior sets up Dragonite and Pecharunt to break fatter structures. Serp really helps Alo especially, since it's basically Ogerpon food. HRott here for Spikes, Ghost resist, and with Glare and Knock from Serp, a pretty decent breaker. Nothing amazing, but a decent example of how Serp is a niche option to ward off Ogerpon for fat teams without being a dead-weight Tera sink.
Serperior (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 200 HP / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Glare
- Taunt
Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Wish
- Protect
Dragonite (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Rock Slide
Iron Treads @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Atk / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
Samurott-Hisui (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
Pecharunt @ Air Balloon
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Malignant Chain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 200 HP / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Glare
- Taunt
Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Wish
- Protect
Dragonite (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Rock Slide
Iron Treads @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Atk / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
Samurott-Hisui (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
Pecharunt @ Air Balloon
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Malignant Chain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
The ammount of progress that guy can do by itself while healing, unfortunately is very slow. It doesnt even beat SubTect Kyurem most of the time.
Bronzong really is not usable outside of very specific hard stall teams, which aren’t even the most common or effective variants at this stage. Too passive and enables a lot of the wrong Pokemon. Do not think it has much place here
I have had similar success with Serperior with the following modifications:
Rich (BB code):
Lucifer (Serperior) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 56 HP / 220 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Tera Blast
- TauntNickname intentional of course. EV spread there to live certain attacks from Wellspring that I don't remember at this moment.
What are some of the pokemon do you think utlilise leftovers + protect the best or most effectively?
for me its Ting Lu since it rarely takes severe damage from anything and already benefits from leftovers greatly, so a free turn of minor healing gives it slight longevity and the ever reliable Galarian Weezing which can use this as an alternative to pain split which can be exploitable and to slightly toxic stall if it pleases (alot of the time it would prefer to run will-o-wisp though)
There are also other more niche options that utilise it solidly like Tyranitar, non rest Dondozo and Cobalion.
for me its Ting Lu since it rarely takes severe damage from anything and already benefits from leftovers greatly, so a free turn of minor healing gives it slight longevity and the ever reliable Galarian Weezing which can use this as an alternative to pain split which can be exploitable and to slightly toxic stall if it pleases (alot of the time it would prefer to run will-o-wisp though)
There are also other more niche options that utilise it solidly like Tyranitar, non rest Dondozo and Cobalion.
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It's pretty hard to think of a situation where I'd use leftovers these days, considering you slap on boots if you can't think of a better item for any given pokémon rather than in past generations where leftovers was the default. It's not a good strategy, but I like using it on Registeel body press sets. Obviously this + protect works better in doubles.
Gliscor has always done this on steroids with Toxic + Protect + Poison Heal. It makes that strategy look like a five star meal when Leftovers are the literal leftovers given at a food bank.
The thing is poison heal toxic orb has far more healing than leftovers, isn’t effected by knock off since Gliscor is still poisoned and grants sort of immunity to other forms of status, its so comically superior to leftovers that it is the reason proto-lando is in OU.
To actually focus on leftovers protect, I believe certain heatran sets could potentially use to extract as much hp from leftovers as possible and to get extra magma storm damage for a turn.
To actually focus on leftovers protect, I believe certain heatran sets could potentially use to extract as much hp from leftovers as possible and to get extra magma storm damage for a turn.
TTar started running TectOvers to accumulate more chipheal and sand chip. It's pretty good being able to Protect as a TTar. Makes it feel like Ting-Lu but cooler.
To be fair everything is cooler than Ting Lu. Too bad Tyranitar's stats can't really keep up in this meta. Sand is also not very good at all anymore since the risk of chip damage in a meta where everything is running boots as the default over leftovers outweighs the reward now. Not to mention that sand rush Excadrill feels way less bulky and powerful in this power crept gen. You would be better off using mold breaker and the only thing Excadrill has over the much better Great Tusk is that it is a steel type that speed ties into Pecharunt (which is actually pretty interesting, but it isn't worth using over Great Tusk in almost any other circumstance). Yeah, Ttar fell off this gen, but we should appreciate what it did in the gens before and maybe it deserves to retire from ou in peace.
Edit: I should clarify that I don't think Tyranitar is unviable. It just doesn't stack up very well against way too many common threats.
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