Announcement SV National Dex Suspect #19 - Moonlight

[sealoo]

[IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ] Although we had planned to host a survey after WC ended to gauge thoughts on the tier and move from there, it was unanimous among council that Roaring Moon needs to be readdressed ASAP, and this sentiment seems to be widely shared beyond council in the general player base. With NDLT rapidly approaching, we decided that waiting longer to address Roaring Moon would be more harmful than beneficial. For clarity, this survey is now slated to happen a bit after this suspect concludes. [IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ]

Just 3 months after its initial suspect, Roaring Moon has made headway as the single most fearsome sweeper and enabler of HO archetypes that have caused immense headaches at the highest levels of play between WC, Majors, and Winter Seasonal, while also being a fearsome threat on more standard offenses and sun archetypes supplemented by Mega Charizard Y. These developments that were not fully recognized during its prior 2 weeks of legality during the suspect have now come out in full force and caused a very fair amount of controversy regarding its place in the tier.

With this out of the way, lets address Roaring Moon itself. Roaring Moon has one primarily controversial set with 2 main permutations: Dragon Dance. DD sets can opt for Booster Energy with DD / Knock / EQ / Acro or Z-Dragon with DD / Knock / EQ / Outrage. A few other offshoots such as DD / Crunch / EQ / Roost with Z-Dark are also viable options, along with pivot sets or Choice Band, but these are not the primary offender of any controversy surrounding Roaring Moon.

DD is an incredible wallbreaker that has a very limited pool of checks and a nearly unmatched speed tier outside certain weather abusers and fringe scarfers after a single DD. Knock softening walls such as Ting-Lu, Landorus-T, and Clefable into range for frequent teammates such as Kingambit and Dragonite create very challenging scenarios, often necessitating taking detrimental hits to one's defensive core to take out Roaring Moon itself. This isn't to take away from Roaring Moon itself, which is very effective at winning games itself, not just clearing the way for its teammates. In fact, this dynamic is commutative with Roaring Moon's teammates being incredibly good at paving a path for Roaring Moon itself to take out a weakened team. This dynamic has pushed HO to the forefront of the metagame between screens Zamazenta, lead Ting-Lu, and lead Mega Diancie compositions being highly effective and seeing considerable usage between NDWC, Majors, and Seasonal.

Roaring Moon is hardly unstoppable, though, with Pokemon like Alomomola, Landorus-T, Clefable, Mega Scizor, and Corviknight being effective checks, while other things like Thunder Wave Gholdengo, Zamazenta, and Tapu Lele are extremely common and give Roaring Moon a hard time setting up. Denying Roaring Moon setup is particularly disastrous, with Booster Energy being a significant contributor to its immense power and only being available once. Z sets do not face this issue, however, the nature of Z-moves are similarly limited, with Roaring Moon often missing the added power on its Knock Off and Earthquake, while the Z-Dragon is prone to being played around and requiring precise plays to get maximum value. Unlike many wallbreakers, Roaring Moon's sets are very distinguishable from each other, with Booster Energy's activation being a key hint towards what one can expect and then use to play around it.
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[Ineros]

The thread has been unlocked! Remember to read the suspect rules and to be respectful!

 

[Moyashi]

I intend to vote ban on Roaring Moon.

RM in my opinion is one of the rare cases of a Pokemon where the typical duration of a suspect isn’t long enough to correctly judge whether it was balanced or healthy for a tier to be unbanned from Ubers. Back when it was initially retested, the tier was still quite fresh off the Tera ban and developing, and strategies had yet to become more optimized with Pokémon not fully explored. Team building felt open and the only things that were getting notable attention back then were Mega Charizard Y and Wellspring. This is relevant became Roaring Moon is an offensive check to both, leaving it seeming like a nice addition to the tier since the former seemed very powerful at the time and the latter has remained contentious across time. All while offering good progress making talents and not seeming like it was overpowered due to the prevalence of Landorus-T and other soft checks which could prevent sweeps. Seemed fine. Especially since the ban of Tera had toned down HO notably.

Cut to a few months later, the hype behind ZardY has died down, but Roaring Moon has been optimized far more and is much better understood in how it performs and has become a very centralizing and warping presence in the tier. We’ve seen this Mon put in a tremendous amount of work in games. Even without Tera RM is very dangerous and exerts a large amount of pressure due to its exceptional natural strength that is bolstered by its explosive Knock Off. Especially as this move enables it to soften up checks shared by its dangerous teammates, and this makes its threat very consistent.

To me, RM propels the efficiency of HO to an unbalanced and unhealthy degree. There aren’t many consistent checks, and there isn’t a true hard stop it, and it’s very difficult to handle offensively due to its speed at +1 being almost untouchable and priority in the tier plinking off it. Beyond that, it forms very potent pairings with many HO staples and feels overwhelming to account for when having to handle it and then the remainder of its team after it’s down (assuming it doesn’t sweep outright).

What few positives the Mon does bring (progress maker, Wellspring check) aren’t worth it when it is such a negative presence that disrupts the tier otherwise. Especially as it’s rough enough already when also having to account for powerful Spikes Gliscor teams as well which are also centralizing.

To close, Roaring Moon enables HO too much and doesn’t have enough sufficient counterplay to be considered balanced so I will be voting ban.

 

[Vlarcheops]

Well, remember when I discussd with several posts that Roaring Moon would be belanced in National Dex OU? Well, I am starting to think those statements aged like milk.

➤ For refernce here is one of my posts about unbanning Roaring Moon: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/post-10414562

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Even if the Choice Band / Choice Scarf in Sun is strong and effective with Roaring Moon being a (more) powerful Pókemon in the sun, its not the reason it's hugely problematic. That title belogs to the Dragon Dance + Z-Crystal Set: with Dragon Dance boosting its attack and speed, it can guarantee to always move first and extremely hard (if we're not talking about priority moves). However, the Z-Crystals are what pushes Roaring Moon over the edge. They give Roaring Moon access to an incredibly strong and uinwallable attack that wih the help of its boosted attack, it camn get rid of its defesive checks. Sure, it can be used only once, but that one time can be calculated when to be used and it allows R. Moon to break a defensive core, making it break havoc. For example, a Black Hole Exclpse can do an unholy amout of damage to Feroothorn, possibly even kill it. Even the Booster Energy Sets prove themselves to be (extremely) nasty to deal with, being forced to switch into a defensive wall that has the chance to be worm down. Making into account that in HO teams, R. Moon hides behind screens - being harder to bring down and having even more chances to setting itslef up with Dragon Dance. Boots sets are practically innocent cuz it has no Dragon Dance and serves as a pivoting option, often running Heavy-Duty Boots for saving itself form hazards. Speaking of hazards, although R. Moon is allergic to them, its teammates will find a way for the opponent NOT to set up any hazards of sort.

However, it is to believe that Roaring Moon still has its porblems in mainly bulky Fairy Pókemon such as Tapu Fini and Clefable as it has very litte to no strategy to beat them and they have both STAB Fairy moves in Draining Kiss and Moonblast which absolutely kills Roaring Moon, but even then they have their own struggles to deal with: for Tapu Fini is Ogerpon-Wellspring, strong special attackers like Terapagon and tha fact that it doesn't add much outside of avoiding status and bbeing a wall for Roaring Moon. For Clefable, even if it's more viable than Tapu Fini, it has to worry about potential Roaring Moon's Steel types teammates like Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball, Gholdengo, Scizor-Mega and Melmetal. Iron-Press Zamazenta can also be a nuisance for Roaring Moon just like any other physical, boosting its Defence so that Roaring Moon won't even scratch it (if it doesn't get critical hit'd!), howver Zamazenta can struggle with a Gjoldengo if it doesn't have Crunch or a Fairy type if it doesn't have Heavy Slam. Plus there is Pókemon like Ferrthorn and Scizor-Mega that can wall Roaring Moon and threatening it with their aresenal, however these Pókemon DIE at the sight of a Fire move. I am sure poeple will find many other ways on paper to presumably wall Roaring Moon, however these "ways" of "wall" it are either backfired from its teammates or R. Moon has boosted its offensive capabilites that the opponent can't do nothing about it.

Often I found myself sacrificing my Landorus-Therian to cripple Roring Moon, only to find itself on the verge of death - even though the Roaring Moon's attack is lowered due to Inimidate. Yes, the Rocky Helmet DID cause some chip damage, but that wouldn't cut it. I also had Terapagos with Tera Shell with full health with Modest nature with Ice Beam, dealing with Roaring moon. If any of these two will fail and R. Moon is already set up, then it would be GG for me.

Therefore I'd vote to BAN Roaring Moon, although I'd be interested to hear people being in the DO NOT BAN side.

Bonus: Damn, it seems Roeaing Moon never was designed to be balanced in any OU metagame, wasn't it?

 

[Bey is Back]

I'm still deciding currently, but I'm leaning towards ban.

I feel like the only set that's possibly banworthy is dragonium z. The other sets are alright (Except boots), but they usually aren't sweeping without their checks dead.

Dragonium ignores all of this and makes it really easy to sweep with it. Dragonium breaks through stuff like Mola, Zapdos, and Moltres. Z moves are also non-contact, so it removes the risk from static and flame body. This roaring moon set basically forces you to sac stuff to z, putting you in the back foot instantly. Even if you bait z successfully, you can still lose with your checks because they don't just 1 shot moon.

While I think moon can sometimes struggle to find good positions to dd, I don't think this makes it balanced. If you give it even 1 free turn, the game can be instantly over. Roaring moon's only has 3 counters, tapu fini, dondozo and clefable, which in my opinion are all subpar pokemon in the tier and incompatible with a lot of team styles.

These combination of traits reminds me a lot of natdex gen 8 dragapult. You are forced into dumb 50/50s with z that most of the time give the moon player a ton of value comparatively. It also has good bulk and typing that prevent it from going down to neutral hits. Just like dragapult as well, its speed makes it that much worse. 0 relevant pokemon outspeed it at +1. I think it's problematic to have moon in the tier when it can beat so many teams with little to no prep and skill.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Oh what did I wake up to?

Yea erm when I'll get reqs Y'all will NEVER guess what I'm gonna vote. To just quote what I said by a fine morning of January

[...] it was very right in its place out of this tier. I do think that giving such a powerful speed option on sun is just not right. Before, Speed Control on Sun was a Grass type that destroyed water types, not Handmade Mega Salamence with U-turn and STAB Koff.
It's hard to take down with Prio, as it takes around 45% from Bullet punch from Max attack, which a lot of scizors don't run, and DD sets are also terrifying. Acro + Knock will Destroy a LOT of the meta which leaves place for Roost, taunt, to prevent being taken down or EQ to hit whatever resists that, Koko, Diancie, KGB, ttar, they all go DOWN so easily It's a toxic presence in a Metagame that has Valiant as its ultimate speed control. its incredible set variety also plays: you might position yourself for Booster speed Choice Band in sun but then it's Booster attack DD and you lose. Rmoon is a Stronger Volcarona as it doesnt need to set up and isn't weak to hazards, and volc is already a big threat. Moon Casually shits on Most teams that can't hit it for SE damage/anymore when running DD roost, and Shits on the entirety of the non-scarf koko tier when Booster speed CB Spamming U-turns. it has coverage for EVERYTHING, and can crack a Z-move out of it. Definetely Uber.

 

[Comett7778]

During the first moon suspect I was very adamant about its unban and I have most definitely switched sides. Moon is now clearly broken and I agree with Moyashi that it was a very rare case of a 2 week suspect not providing enough time to determine rather it is broken or not.

There are two main sets that I consider broken. Booster and Z. Booster allows for more immediate power while Z makes switching in and out lest costly and gives Moon a one time nuke. Booster has amazing coverage in acro and eq meaning many would be checks like clef don’t work nearly as well in practice. Meanwhile Z Moon can run dark or dragon z crystal to have a nuke which can blow past would be checks. Or run something more niche like z fly or z iron head. Also both can run roost cause why not. And dark dragon is a great type for getting easy and cheap setup opportunities. You can easily switching in on mons like Zard-Y, or Terapagos and then get a free dd and sweep. Which is only furthered by the aforementioned mentioned roost.

I will without a doubt be voting ban for this suspect. As per usual I’m gonna make a longer post once I get reqs that won’t be written in the middle of my chem class.

 

[Sputnik]

This is sort of gonna turn into a rant about the current meta but I feel that it fits since Roaring Moon is (in my opinion) a main culprit for the relatively stagnant and restricted meta that we've been boxed into.

Those that have been keeping up with NDWC recently will have noticed that two playstyles are currently dominant: very fat balance and hyper offense. Balance cores dominated by very bulky Pokemon with significant longevity such as Gliscor, Toxapex, Gholdengo, Clefable, Alomomola, and Pecharunt (among many others) are hard to break in practice and excel at making progress while offensive pokes flail helplessly against them. At this point we've all been thoroughly irritated by a Spikes+Tect Gliscor balance before. The interesting thing about this playstyles dominance is that we have several Pokemon that actually thoroughly dominate these balances anchored by sturdy Ground-types like Gliscor. Dedicated balance breakers such as Kyurem, Volcanion, and Nidoking are currently on the VR and considered viable largely because of their excellent matchup versus these balance teams, while nuclear wallbreakers such as Nasty Plot Tornadus-T, Booster Energy Great Tusk, Ursaluna, and Mega Mawile play a similar role. Indeed, when these teams were the sole dominant playstyle, it was very worth bringing these Pokemon to important games because their matchup versus the best playstyle was so good, even if their usefulness vs. faster playstyles was questionable at best.

I'm discussing this here because Roaring Moon is the main reason that this has changed significantly. Hyper offense pre-Roaring Moon and post-Dragapult was considered fringey at best and completely unviable at worst because they simply didn't have a way to appreciably threaten all of the different fatter playstyles that were running around. This also meant that more standard offense and bulky offense teams were still very viable because it usually didn't have to worry about getting blown past by a high powered HO. Bulky offense teams in particular could often afford to fit a more dedicated balance breaker like Kyurem because they could cover its mediocre offense matchup by packing other Pokemon with good defensive utility and speed control.

Roaring Moon hyper offense completely changed the calculus here. Dragon Dance Roaring Moon has to be answered through a set of very specific defensive Pokemon because outpacing it and revenge killing it is simply not an option for most teams. No good Scarfer outruns it after a boost, and its not about to immediately drop to most forms of priority either. These defensive Pokemon (a set that includes, among other things, Clefable, Tapu Fini, Mega Scizor, and Corviknight) are good Pokemon to be sure, but they are also rarely tasked with just Roaring Moon. Clefable is often intended to also check Fighting-types, Tapu Fini is supposed to sponge Fire-types as well as help vs. Fighting-types, while Corviknight and Mega Scizor are also tasked with Fairy- and Psychic-types like Tapu Lele, Mega Diancie, and Iron Valiant. You may notice that Roaring Moon can fit with a ton of Pokemon that can help to beat down its shared checks. This means that teams attempting to beat Roaring Moon defensively (which is, again, one of the only reliable strategies for non-HO teams) is to layer multiple defensive Pokemon on top of each other. If Clefable is your Rmoon answer, you need a secondary Fighting-type switch in. If its Fini, you need a secondary Heatran answer. If its Corviknight, well I hope you have another way to stave off Tapu Lele and Mega Diancie. This is further complicated by other HO innovations, such as Swarm Volcarona and CM Hatterene, which you also need to be able to cover. The only teams that can afford to build like this are...fat balance teams! Offense teams cannot hope to fit all of this defensive utility while retaining a good matchup versus fat balance. The aforementioned balance breakers are dead slots versus HO, and you absolutely cannot afford to have that in the current meta. This has lead to offense and bulky offense teams to be inconsistent and extremely hard to build in a way that retains both a good matchup against HO and fat balance, which in turn has led to them being very poor choices in the current tournament setting.

I believe that Roaring Moon is the main culprit to this largely because of its excellent speed tier and DD set's ability to invalidate Fighting-types as answers. Offense teams can afford revenge killers that can outspeed most HO threats, but crucially not Roaring Moon, who is way too fast to be threatened by our common scarfers at +1. They also cannot use a Fighting-type, such as Great Tusk, Zamazenta, or Iron Valiant as their main Dark-type check, because both DD Roaring Moon variants can easily dispatch these Fighters when boosted thanks to Drag Z or Boosted Acrobatics. This leads to offense having very few ways to handle Roaring Moon without requiring multiple defensive Pokemon dedicated to helping out versus it, which of course leads to them not being able to handle the rest of a large and powercrept meta like National Dex.

It's a shame because I love what Band, Scarf, and especially Pivot Roaring Moon sets bring to the meta, as they compress speed control and notable defensive utility with the ability to make progress through Knock Off and good, but not overwhelming, power. But the DD sets are so overbearing and have been the main culprit behind shepharding the meta into the unfortunate place of two viable playstyles that it is in now. Please ban this Pokemon.

 

[Isza]

https://pokepast.es/a4238341c2574632 used this for reqs, I'll be voting ban. Dm me @shalisza on discord for any questions or elaboration too tired atm.

Edit: Reqs should be harder

 

[cloudu0]

Roar roar roar roar roar roaring moon
"This Pokémon is the embodiment of a space-time distortion from the Great Crater of Paldea. When a Trainer simultaneously holds both a Z-Crystal and Booster Energy during sunny weather and triggers a glitch, Roaring Moon mega evolves into Eclipse Ruin-Z — its wings slice through the laws of reality. In hyper-offense teams, each Dragon Dance it performs causes value overflows that break the game's balance, and might even trigger a tier-level data corruption (allegedly). It is said that during its battles, even Arceus silently switches on the Fairy-type Plate..."

https://pokepast.es/314f33135d0bfb52 used this for reqs, I agree that the Roaring Moon holding Z-Crystal has extremely destructive power in HO. Go and unleash its Final Dance now!

 

[Oculars]

Will be voting DNB we just unbanned this thing and it holds together the meta very well being a great soft check to stuff like yard and waterpon, should of went for a ghold or gliscor suspect first honestly as the tier is in need of consistent progress makers and setup sweepers that arent instantly folded by all the stupid strong priority in the tier. Im also of the opinion that people havent really tried hard enough to find checks to this thing or sequences to beat it yet as I havent seen a single sticky barb clef used and mfs are still being greedy with magic guard instead of una clef, I've seen nobody even attempt to build cores that include first impression to check this thing, barely anyone is trying fini which is a great support mon regardless and feel that people generally want to be able to use the same boring recycled defensive structures and be able to check every new set that gets invented which guess what you cant, adapt to the meta and change how you build.

 

[Runo]

I've seen nobody even attempt to build cores that include first impression to check this thing,

 

[Ineros]

as I havent seen a single sticky barb clef used and mfs are still being greedy with magic guard instead of una clef

The reason sticky Barb clef isn’t used primarily for moon unlike in the past of svou is because there’s no Tera, meaning sticky Barb is relatively useless to the interaction of clef checking moon. Magic guard clef is also much more widespread than unaclef because unaclef primarily fits on stall or extremely fat teams, which are only a small fraction of the teams it actually fits on. Even then, most fat teams would rather use magic guard anyway because it’s such a good ability for Clefable to have and allows it to be a knock absorber / not be prone to toxic on such teams.

I've seen nobody even attempt to build cores that include first impression to check this thing

I’ll point you to Runo’s post above, but also the reason first impression mons that are at least viable in sv ou such as lokix and slither wing aren’t used is because the meta is currently very unfavorable to them, especially in the case of slither wing. In the case of lokix, Tera being gone means that it’s rather lackluster in damage output and in turn does not have the raw power neccessary to be a true threat to offense teams. Even then, band lokix is horrible vs. the ho teams roaring moon is found on at least in this metagame.

barely anyone is trying fini which is a great support mon regardless

On ladder, fini actually still gains consistent usage even after pult is gone. This means that the general playerbase (and by extension a decent amount of players who will get reqs) are actually trying to use it as a way of stopping roaring moon. However, Fini is a Pokémon that is riddled with issues and is not the easiest to fit on balance / bo teams as it may seem. These issues make up why it was not commonly seen in World Cup, and this relates to roaring moon because this check to it (Fini) is a heavily flawed pokemon and thus isn’t splashable on the common team, making the pool of checks smaller. In World Cup we saw this take place as although Fini had gotten decent usage in the tours prior and its existence was noticed people realized what I said above about the mon.

and feel that people generally want to be able to use the same boring recycled defensive structures and be able to check every new set that gets invented which guess what you cant, adapt to the meta and change how you build.

This isn’t a bad argument on paper, however it unnecessarily implies that the people who want to ban moon have not tried to figure out ways to stop it. This was seen in World Cup and you could ask multiple top builders / players if moon is broken or not and, despite them being able to build around the mon and slot in checks for it, what makes moon banworthy is not the list of checks on paper but how each of them can not only get worn down in practice but also how it furthers HO playstyles to an unhealthy degree. It doesn’t need to be a mon with no defensive checks to be banned; I personally believe that moon is a largely unhealthy presence and is promoting (as in: making them have much more viability and effectiveness than they should in a healthy metagame) HO teams in an unhealthy manner because of how effective it is at breaking down teams so these structures have easy pickings (poor choice of words but I essentially mean that moon makes the task of breaking down defensive cores an easy task for ho despite its regular inconsistency in doing so that has been shown even earlier in this teraless metagame / past gens, which is what I think is centered around moon).

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The point of this post is not to change your opinion or to say that it’s outright wrong as I think dnb’ing moon is a reasonable outcome, however I make it so then I can point out that it’s not necessarily that the ways of dealing with moon are undiscovered hidden technology or that it’s the list of checks that makes something broken but rather it’s impact on the metagame and how unhealthy it is and if (it doesn’t apply to every mon but for moon specifically I think it does) it promotes unhealthy playstyles in said meta which is its own can of worms in of itself and something another ban moon person would explain better but that’s the distinction I want to make.

 

[Lameflame]

Before too many arguments are needlessly repeated, I’d like to add some thoughts on Roaring Moon, why I would probably vote Ban if the vote were held today, and advance a few other arguments about Moon’s counterplay and value to the tier.

Purely in a vacuum, I do not think Roaring Moon is broken. While I am fully on board with the gripes that the National Dex ladder offers a very poor environment to gauge a pokemon’s true potential, and that two weeks may not provide ample time to do so, I do not think Moon’s original unban via the prior retest was a “wrong” decision. This is because, for at least a majority of initial voters, Moon does not immediately fit conventional definitions of what many consider “broken” in tiering. At first glance, Moon has a variety of defensive checks such as Clefable, Tapu Fini, Great Tusk, Corviknight, etc. that are all otherwise viable in the metagame, and that perform various roles apart from checking Moon alone. The tier also has at least some offensive counterplay that can revenge it both organically (see Z-Koko, Mega Lopunny) and situationally (see Booster Valiant, some assorted scarfers), even if most of the tier struggles to achieve this after a single boost. Many of its sets are generally telegraphed without requiring any egregious mental gymnastics to predict and outplay, and as the OP already stated, each set has its own ceiling relative to their obvious drawbacks. If any single set approaches “broken” status, I personally believe that Booster + 3ATK sets are far more restrictive and difficult to contain than any of the Z sets, particularly in the late-game, with Bulky DD Roost sets posing their own set of issues (and I still feel these sets are not yet fully explored). But even still, you could probably make a reasonable argument that no single set pushes Moon over the edge given the risk/reward each set contains and the counterplay the tier has to contain them.

Notwithstanding the conventional Do Not Ban arguments noted above, what I find potentially problematic about Moon’s presence in the tier is a combination of two broader points. First, I would agree with and largely echo some of the other Ban arguments as they relate to the way Moon’s counterplay warps how games are forced to be played, regardless of whether Moon is ultimately contained or not. The reality is that for some offensive threats – such as Moon in this case – the way they individually interact with their own checks is at times a better indicator of how containable they really are in practice, rather than evaluating the total number and quality of each individual check in isolation. Perhaps Clefable and Tapu Fini are capable of checking Moon while also still performing other roles (though even this is not always a guarantee), but other shakier checks like Corviknight, Zapdos, Zamazenta and Tusk are either at the mercy of certain coverage or Z-Moves, do not perform their other roles quite as well with their items displaced, and/or survive the interaction with Moon with very limited utility thereafter. This oftentimes creates situations where any of these checks do technically fit the definition and fulfill their role as checks to Moon, but lose their ability to perform other necessary roles outside of this task – particularly when most offensive teams are already built with the precise intention to overwhelm many of Moon’s checks.

This does not even account for the disproportionate impact Moon exerts later-game as a cleaner and win condition, which I feel sets Moon apart from other offensive threats. Effectively, given that it has the speed tier to outpace most of the metagame after a single boost, enough bulk to survive most strong priority and neutral stronger hits in the meta (see Gholengo MIR), and either the coverage to hit almost everything it needs or the ability to muscle through its checks through Z-Moves or other support (e.g. Sun), you have to prioritize your gameplan at all times to ensure that Moon cannot reverse-sweep after a single turn to set up. While yes, it is possible to contain Moon well enough to deny it this single free turn, the fact that this is all Moon needs to outright win the game more often than it does not is problematic. You could try to analogize this quality to other offensive threats such as Volcarona or Dragonite that do have the capability, at times, to serve as a single-boost win condition, but both of these offensive threats (and several others) either cannot reliability compress their coverage, outspeed most of the metagame, or actually secure these free setup turns in the same way that Moon can without a very favorable matchup or a lot more team support.

The other point of contention I see with Moon is namely that it is simply too good to justify ever foregoing, which is not a healthy long-term dynamic for the tier if the goal is to prevent a stale and over-centralized metagame. This point could be construed as simple subjective bias, which is fair, but I genuinely cannot see why any competent offensive structure would ever be better off without Moon on it. When you have something that can serve as a win condition against most of tier, most of the time, coupled with item displacement and the unique pressure it exerts on the opponent to preserve their checks for Moon at the expense of its teammates, Moon’s presence alone magnifies the threat of offensive teams generally in a way that cannot really be analogized to other offensive threats. With this in mind, it becomes hard to justify using any offensive structure that doesn’t feature Moon apart from boredom or the desire to be creative. You could probably take this argument further to say that Moon should be a near-staple on a variety of other teams given that very few pokemon can add match the value it adds enough to justify those choices over Moon – and I have seen others allude to this – but the fact that it is borderline mandatory on at least one structure is enough cause for concern. Centralization by itself is actually a desired quality for a metagame to provide some sense of predictability in the builder. However, when any individual element reaches the point where you are almost always at a competitive disadvantage by foregoing its use, it becomes hard to argue that the tier would be better off in the long-term with such a presence in the tier.

To summarize – I do feel that some of the Ban arguments I have seen in various places somewhat oversell how difficult it is to actually contain Moon given the tools the meta has to check it in a variety of ways, and the tier can certainly survive with Moon in it. With that said, from a long-term standpoint, the tier is probably better off without Moon to free up restrictions in the teambuilder and avoid a stale and overcentralized metagame.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

https://pokepast.es/a4238341c2574632 used this for reqs, I'll be voting ban. Dm me @shalisza on discord for any questions or elaboration too tired atm.

Edit: Reqs should be harder

Rich homeowners saying we should spend more on rent smh



Anyways I think people realize that moon is broken now because they've faced skilled people use it, not Potato99 on the ladder using snarl Dragon Breath (no offense if you read this you was cooking)

https://pokepast.es/f1bbe11916fc1c6d might do a RMT one of these days when i'm bored
That's been dealt with, closing thoughts:
Roaring Moon is not unwallable. No Pokémon is. however, as you've been able to understand since it's been in the tier for 3 months+ now, ny and every good Roaring Moon team has an overly easy time dealing with Moon checks. it can be wishmola+Corv to accompany CB Moon, Steelium Z Ghold to accompany DD Booster, or generic mons on HO for DD Z moon.
Roaring moon has pokémon able to stop a sweep ranked by odds of actually working:
Slither wing, Lokix (First impression)
Clefable (Moonblast)
Tapu Fini (Moonblast)
Lando-T (Intimidate + toxic, Intimidate + U-turn)
Bulky Z Gholdengo (if Protosynthesis is not active) (Fightinium Z, Prayer + Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam)
Zamazenta that hasn't used up Dauntless shield, if running an anti-moon spread and the Rmoon doesn't switch out)
Status Birds (Status Bird ability)
Scizor Mega (U-turn if you live)
Ogerpon Cornerstone (Sturdy + Superpower, Sturdy + superpower when weakened). that's 7 "usable mons" + 2 First Impression. Now lemme

Calcs after 1 DD

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 215-254 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64+ Def Tapu Fini: 187-221 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Landorus-Therian: 295-347 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 270-318 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Moltres: 321-378 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 188+ Def Zapdos: 276-325 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

all these "counters" that can't switch in after a single DD with rocks up. it takes ONE turn for Roaring moon to run your team down. Alternatively, if any of these Pokémon is weakened, that's goodbye.

TL;DR : Read you lazy ahh
there are two ways for you to lose to Roaring moon if you have a counter in your team:
Said counter gets chipped
Moon gets a DD off.
Get this thing out of the tier lmfao

 

[tpfire]

I'm voting keep unban.

Roaring moon has enough answer and checks. Great Tusk, clefable, ferro, lando, hatterne, tapu fini and many more. The olny set that seems somewhat dangerous is the z set since it can nuke it's hard answer but z set are often predictions heavy. You can't just launch the z nuke into a fairy or steel. It still frail and need to set up which is hard when everything hurts it.

 

[JackRG]

It still frail

Last time I checked 105 hp and 101 spdef isn't "frail" lmao. For reference, its specially bulkier than fucking amoongus. Even the defense is deceptively high considering that fat hp stat. Honestly whoever at game freak created this mon's stat spread was high AF lmao, like this mon just feels at odds with the very concept of game balance

 

[tpfire]

Last time I checked 105 hp and 101 spdef isn't "frail" lmao. For reference, its specially bulkier than amoongus lmao. Even the defense is deceptively high considering that fat hp stat. Honestly whoever at game freak created this mon's stat spread was high AF lmao, like this mon just feels at odds with the very concept of game balance

Mf has 105 hp, I must be blind. I swear it was 70 something

 

[DarmanitanDLuffy]

I'm voting keep unban.

Roaring moon has enough answer and checks. Great Tusk, clefable, ferro, lando, hatterne, tapu fini and many more. The olny set that seems somewhat dangerous is the z set since it can nuke it's hard answer but z set are often predictions heavy. You can't just launch the z nuke into a fairy or steel. It still frail and need to set up which is hard when everything hurts it.

Very few of these are legitimate checks.

As you can see below, Hatt can get Ohko’d if it switches into +1 booster knock off and if rocks are up then it’s an 87.5% chance to get ohko’d.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hatterene: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hatterene: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kin+ak’s post, seen above, shows that Fini and Clef both can’t switch into booster acro after a DD.

Tusk is not a real check either, since it also gets ohko’d by +1 booster acro and easily 2hko’d by regular booster acro. Ferrothorn is setup fodder unless it’s running t-wave, which it doesn’t do.

You also mention that Moon is “frail”, which is entirely untrue. For one thing, it’s special bulk is a very respectable 105/101 which lets it set up even on super effective HP ice from specs Koko or Terapagos ice beam. It doesn’t drop to any neutral special attacks and lives a vast majority of unboosted neutral physical attacks. “Everything hurting it” also doesn’t matter much, since it outruns the entire tier after a DD (it’s faster than MPert under rain lol). If nothing consistently revenge kills it, then moon getting chipped while setting up doesn’t matter.

 

[tpfire]

Very few of these are legitimate checks.

As you can see below, Hatt can get Ohko’d if it switches into +1 booster knock off and if rocks are up then it’s an 87.5% chance to get ohko’d.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hatterene: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hatterene: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kin+ak’s post, seen above, shows that Fini and Clef both can’t switch into booster acro after a DD.

Tusk is not a real check either, since it also gets ohko’d by +1 booster acro and easily 2hko’d by regular booster acro. Ferrothorn is setup fodder unless it’s running t-wave, which it doesn’t do.

You also mention that Moon is “frail”, which is entirely untrue. For one thing, it’s special bulk is a very respectable 105/101 which lets it set up even on super effective HP ice from specs Koko or Terapagos ice beam. It doesn’t drop to any neutral special attacks and lives a vast majority of unboosted neutral physical attacks. “Everything hurting it” also doesn’t matter much, since it outruns the entire tier after a DD (it’s faster than MPert under rain lol). If nothing consistently revenge kills it, then moon getting chipped while setting up doesn’t matter.

Many of these cal are taken at face value. Not every moon is acro. Not every moon is z. Ferro often runs twave and leech seed. Leech seed can also ruin it. If its roost then its most likely knock plus eq or knock plus outrage which would be kinda stupid. I am wrong on the frail part. It look frail from how it was dying from common hit aftersome chip. Fini gets 2 hit ko but then moon ties back. Moon can't set up to easily, the tier still threaten from every corner. Even stuff it should set up on like ghold can often ruin it. Corv should be id and body press, or atleast body press since it be set up fodder for so many other mon.

 

[DarmanitanDLuffy]

Many of these cal are taken at face value. Not every moon is acro. Not every moon is z. Ferro often runs twave and leech seed. Leech seed can also ruin it. If its roost then its most likely knock plus eq or knock plus outrage which would be kinda stupid. I am wrong on the frail part. It look frail from how it was dying from common hit aftersome chip. Fini gets 2 hit ko but then moon ties back. Moon can't set up to easily, the tier still threaten from every corner. Even stuff it should set up on like ghold can often ruin it. Corv should be id and body press, or atleast body press since it be set up fodder for so many other mon.

Leech seed doesn’t bother moon at all. 12% chip per turn doesn’t matter while it sets up and at +2 it kills everything before leech seed even chips it.

You also say that not every moon is DD acro or DD Z, but those are the two most problematic sets and the pokémon you listed do not check those. The fact that moon can also viably run scarf, band, boots, and 2- roost makes it all the more bannable.

Ghold doesn’t stop moon from setting up at all. It just dies to booster knock off unless it’s Z. The Z set can deny setup with TWave but only if it’s at full and it still loses 1v1 to Moon.

Unboosted Corv BP doesn’t even kill moon and it can’t switch into Z Moon since it gets KOed by knock into Z or Z into knock after rocks.

 

[tpfire]

Leech seed doesn’t bother moon at all. 12% chip per turn doesn’t matter while it sets up and at +2 it kills everything before leech seed even chips it.

You also say that not every moon is DD acro or DD Z, but those are the two most problematic sets and the pokémon you listed do not check those. The fact that moon can also viably run scarf, band, boots, and 2- roost makes it all the more bannable.

Ghold doesn’t stop moon from setting up at all. It just dies to booster knock off unless it’s Z. The Z set can deny setup with TWave but only if it’s at full and it still loses 1v1 to Moon.

Unboosted Corv BP doesn’t even kill moon and it can’t switch into Z Moon since it gets KOed by knock into Z or Z into knock after rocks.

Your taking the stuff at face value. 12% chip is alot and ferro runs twave alot of time. Along with power whip and iron barb, a plus 2 is not doing alot compare to the chip damage.

That doesn't change the fact that, there are checks and counter. Z move moon are walled by clefable ferro corv and many other fairy steel type. Corv body press does around 80% and can take a knock. Your acting like moon comes in the field with plus 2 and plus 2 speed. It's very easy to make it stop setting up. Ghold can twave or just click focus Blast. Sure ghold is dead but you deny it a ddance. I mostly recommend this vs ho and bo since vs ho its more impactful. Dark z is very uncommon and it's more common with z dragon

 

[DarmanitanDLuffy]

Your taking the stuff at face value. 12% chip is alot and ferro runs twave alot of time. Along with power whip and iron barb, a plus 2 is not doing alot compare to the chip damage.

That doesn't change the fact that, there are checks and counter. Z move moon are walled by clefable ferro corv and many other fairy steel type. Corv body press does around 80% and can take a knock. Your acting like moon comes in the field with plus 2 and plus 2 speed. It's very easy to make it stop setting up. Ghold can twave or just click focus Blast. Sure ghold is dead but you deny it a ddance. I mostly recommend this vs ho and bo since vs ho its more impactful. Dark z is very uncommon and it's more common with z dragon

12% is practically nothing for Moon since it can’t get revenged. Unless you can directly kill or cripple Moon then there is no point in having that mon in because moon can just set up. Booster Moon runs EQ anyways so it doesn’t take iron barb chip and Z moon doesn’t take iron barb chip on the Z either. If Moon is forcing you to run T-wave on Ferro, you are running a sub-optimal set specifically to stop one pokémon which is what tiering action is intended to stop.

You keep saying that “many other” pokémon wall moon but you fail to list them. It runs EQ on literally every set so it doesn’t get walled by steels. Corv and Skarm are the only steels who actually check it but even they can get muscled past.

Corv cannot come in and BP if you DD on the switch, I’m not acting as if moon comes onto the field +2 +2. There is no need for me to do that since moon comes in with 1.3x attack half the time anyways. It’s piss easy to set up because booster moon forces a ridiculous amount of switches.

Ghold’s focus blast doesn’t even kill moon so it can DD in front of you and then kill with Knock. T-wave sets don’t run focus blast anyways and can be scouted for by the moon player. If the threat of Roaring Moon prevents you from bringing out the most used (and arguably best) mon in the tier then that is unhealthy.

 

[ecxdee]

I will be voting *BAN*. Moon has skewed the relationship between ho and balance, making the former far too overpowered. While moon does have checks and soft counters, the damage it deals makes it so future set-up or cleaners have a far easier time finishing the job. Checks like fini and corv get a chunk of health ripped off and lose their item, putting them out of commission to stop future checks. With moon’s ridiculous speed stat, it is basically guaranteed a strong knock off onto a crucial defender. No scarfer barring meow and koko can outspeed moon after a dd, neither of which can be splashed onto most teams. HO should be viable, but it being the dominant archetype means something is unbalanced.

 

[tpfire]

12% is practically nothing for Moon since it can’t get revenged. Unless you can directly kill or cripple Moon then there is no point in having that mon in because moon can just set up. Booster Moon runs EQ anyways so it doesn’t take iron barb chip and Z moon doesn’t take iron barb chip on the Z either. If Moon is forcing you to run T-wave on Ferro, you are running a sub-optimal set specifically to stop one pokémon which is what tiering action is intended to stop.

You keep saying that “many other” pokémon wall moon but you fail to list them. It runs EQ on literally every set so it doesn’t get walled by steels. Corv and Skarm are the only steels who actually check it but even they can get muscled past.

Corv cannot come in and BP if you DD on the switch, I’m not acting as if moon comes onto the field +2 +2. There is no need for me to do that since moon comes in with 1.3x attack half the time anyways. It’s piss easy to set up because booster moon forces a ridiculous amount of switches.

Ghold’s focus blast doesn’t even kill moon so it can DD in front of you and then kill with Knock. T-wave sets don’t run focus blast anyways and can be scouted for by the moon player. If the threat of Roaring Moon prevents you from bringing out the most used (and arguably best) mon in the tier then that is unhealthy.

Are we playing the same meta game. Ferro most commun set happen to be twave or knock. It's a 50 50 on what it runs. Ghold runs focus Blast most of time.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 166-196 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 328-386 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Need anymore example. Mind you most of these cal are adamant