This mon is incredible, should be used more often. My fav set rn is Waterium Z Rain Dance + Hydro Pump + Psychic.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
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i am not engaging in yard vs gard debate its the pokemon equivalent of kobe vs raptors legend jamaal magloire just let her rest bro
there was that one time seth was posting band quark drive boulder calcs on discord and it stuck with me, and aud/enam are here just because its thread relevant i was considering azurill but the snake scarf looked funnier
if we're comparing viability, yard vs literally any other legal mega is a blowout for the sole reason of "because sun". like you actually have no idea how insane it is to have something that's a sun setter while also being a good pokemon at the same time
I saw there was discourse on Mega Gardevoir here.
Can't speak for everyone, but the few times I've faced it, the mon has been quite a threat with its 100 speed tier, and strong Hyper Voices. This extra speed over Lele has been a massive advantage in many match-ups, allowing it to speed tie with Mega Charizard Y and outpace critical targets such as Urshifu, Kyurem, and Gliscor. Its got some nice advantages over Lele with utility moves like Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, Psychic Noise, and Mystical Fire as well. IMO, not setting up Psychic Terrain is also a benefit because it allows for one's own Kingambit or Raging Bolt to not be too severely hindered, which has happened to me a few times when using Lele.
Like the mon isn't gonna be a world beater, but it likely will do decently for anyone who gives it a try and it has clear niches it can perform if anyone wants to explore those in greater depth. An interaction as mundane as, IDK, luring a Kingambit and Wisping it, or a Psychic Noise preventing a Moltres from recovering, or not setting up Psychic Terrain so your own Kingambit can better function are practical advantages the mon has that give it value on some teams.
Can't speak for everyone, but the few times I've faced it, the mon has been quite a threat with its 100 speed tier, and strong Hyper Voices. This extra speed over Lele has been a massive advantage in many match-ups, allowing it to speed tie with Mega Charizard Y and outpace critical targets such as Urshifu, Kyurem, and Gliscor. Its got some nice advantages over Lele with utility moves like Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, Psychic Noise, and Mystical Fire as well. IMO, not setting up Psychic Terrain is also a benefit because it allows for one's own Kingambit or Raging Bolt to not be too severely hindered, which has happened to me a few times when using Lele.
Like the mon isn't gonna be a world beater, but it likely will do decently for anyone who gives it a try and it has clear niches it can perform if anyone wants to explore those in greater depth. An interaction as mundane as, IDK, luring a Kingambit and Wisping it, or a Psychic Noise preventing a Moltres from recovering, or not setting up Psychic Terrain so your own Kingambit can better function are practical advantages the mon has that give it value on some teams.
While you guys keep discussing about Mega Gardevoir, I wanna discuss about our dear Roaring Moon, specifically when its suspect will (ever) come:
I'll state my opinion, but first of all, I want to discuss its (interesting) story in National Dex OU. Roaring Moon was quickbanned due to its ability to set-up behind a substitute from Shed Tail, making it easier to click Dragon Dance to sweep entire teams. It didn't help that Terastalization was still around, letting it tera into Flying, one of its natural typings or others AND Z-Crystals boosting its STAB moves into oblivion. However, Shed tail was banned, therefore meaning that Moon can come back into NDOU, right? Nope! While the ban of Shed Tail was a blow for it, it sitll had Tera, making it (very) hard to take down. Not to mention it has access to either Booster Energy or Z-Crystals (Draconium-Z). And it could terastalize into a Flying type, having STAB on Acrobatics while also escaping its defensive shortcomings. Guess what? Terataslization is BANNED! IS it worth unbanning Roaring Moon? The answer is YES! (For me, at least....)
For starters, we have Pókemon that can outspeed it naturally in the tier, and they are (quite) common, like the elustrated examples from the likes of Mega-Lopunny, Tapu Koko, Zamazenta and Dragapult. All of these Pókemon have a way to beat Roaring Moon while also having STAB on their attacks: Lopunny-Mega and Zamazenta have Close Combat (Zamazenta can wall it with Body Press as well), Weavile with STAB Triple Axel or Ice Shard, Tapu Koko with Dazzling Gleam and Dragapult with Dragon Darts. Without a speed bioost, these four can take Roaring Moon down with ease. But what if Roaring Moon has its speed boosted by Booster Eneregy or sun? Out side of Zamazenta, the others would be smoked, HOWEVER it leads to my other argument.
In this tier there are many defensive and /super)viable walls that can give Roaring Moon a bad time. (get it?) Anyways these Pókemon can take a hit from Moon and kill or heavily damage it back with STAB moves, Intimdate, Rocky Helmet or U-Turn. (Scizor-Mega has STAV U-turn, LOL!) Landorus is ALWAYS running around in the tier and it NEVER leaves U-Turn, Great Tusk almost always carries STAB Close Combat, Zamazemta walls it with Body Press and many more possibilities. Even with Dragonium-Z, I still think there are Pókemon in the tier that can still tank it and then hit it back. Speaking of defensive backbone, let's talk about Moon's problematic defensive shortcomings.
Being BOTH a Dark and Dragon types, it DIES to a Fairy attack. It doesn't help it either that Fairies are excellent in NDOU: you have Tapu Lele, it can either have a Z-Crystal or a Choice Scarf, Iron Valiant with Booster Energy, boosting its speed, Tapu Koko naturally outspeedig it and killing it with Dazzling Gleam, Hatterene taking a hit and (almost) kill it with Draining Kiss and so on.
Not to mention Fighting has a lot of tools/sets that can deal with Moon's antics and kill (take care of) it!
◆ Weak to hazards: due to it always having Booster Energy or a Z-Crystal, it (almost) never uses Heavy-Duty Boots, letting itsef being damaged by popular hazards, such as Stealth Rock and (Toxic) Spikes!
◆ Being a physical attacker: it's well known that physical Pókemon tend to get the short end of the stick: Intimidate by Landorus-Therian, burns by Will-O-Wisp form Dragapult or Moltres (or even Shedinja), Rocky Helmet and Scald (30% chance of burning your opponent!).
So in conclusion,
LET'S FREE OUR DEAR ROARING MOON!
I'll state my opinion, but first of all, I want to discuss its (interesting) story in National Dex OU. Roaring Moon was quickbanned due to its ability to set-up behind a substitute from Shed Tail, making it easier to click Dragon Dance to sweep entire teams. It didn't help that Terastalization was still around, letting it tera into Flying, one of its natural typings or others AND Z-Crystals boosting its STAB moves into oblivion. However, Shed tail was banned, therefore meaning that Moon can come back into NDOU, right? Nope! While the ban of Shed Tail was a blow for it, it sitll had Tera, making it (very) hard to take down. Not to mention it has access to either Booster Energy or Z-Crystals (Draconium-Z). And it could terastalize into a Flying type, having STAB on Acrobatics while also escaping its defensive shortcomings. Guess what? Terataslization is BANNED! IS it worth unbanning Roaring Moon? The answer is YES! (For me, at least....)
For starters, we have Pókemon that can outspeed it naturally in the tier, and they are (quite) common, like the elustrated examples from the likes of Mega-Lopunny, Tapu Koko, Zamazenta and Dragapult. All of these Pókemon have a way to beat Roaring Moon while also having STAB on their attacks: Lopunny-Mega and Zamazenta have Close Combat (Zamazenta can wall it with Body Press as well), Weavile with STAB Triple Axel or Ice Shard, Tapu Koko with Dazzling Gleam and Dragapult with Dragon Darts. Without a speed bioost, these four can take Roaring Moon down with ease. But what if Roaring Moon has its speed boosted by Booster Eneregy or sun? Out side of Zamazenta, the others would be smoked, HOWEVER it leads to my other argument.
In this tier there are many defensive and /super)viable walls that can give Roaring Moon a bad time. (get it?) Anyways these Pókemon can take a hit from Moon and kill or heavily damage it back with STAB moves, Intimdate, Rocky Helmet or U-Turn. (Scizor-Mega has STAV U-turn, LOL!) Landorus is ALWAYS running around in the tier and it NEVER leaves U-Turn, Great Tusk almost always carries STAB Close Combat, Zamazemta walls it with Body Press and many more possibilities. Even with Dragonium-Z, I still think there are Pókemon in the tier that can still tank it and then hit it back. Speaking of defensive backbone, let's talk about Moon's problematic defensive shortcomings.
Being BOTH a Dark and Dragon types, it DIES to a Fairy attack. It doesn't help it either that Fairies are excellent in NDOU: you have Tapu Lele, it can either have a Z-Crystal or a Choice Scarf, Iron Valiant with Booster Energy, boosting its speed, Tapu Koko naturally outspeedig it and killing it with Dazzling Gleam, Hatterene taking a hit and (almost) kill it with Draining Kiss and so on.
Not to mention Fighting has a lot of tools/sets that can deal with Moon's antics and kill (take care of) it!
◆ Weak to hazards: due to it always having Booster Energy or a Z-Crystal, it (almost) never uses Heavy-Duty Boots, letting itsef being damaged by popular hazards, such as Stealth Rock and (Toxic) Spikes!
◆ Being a physical attacker: it's well known that physical Pókemon tend to get the short end of the stick: Intimidate by Landorus-Therian, burns by Will-O-Wisp form Dragapult or Moltres (or even Shedinja), Rocky Helmet and Scald (30% chance of burning your opponent!).
So in conclusion,
LET'S FREE OUR DEAR ROARING MOON!
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Well, everyone has been discussing Pokemon that they believe to have some "potential", whether it be niche but underutilized picks that actually have potential like Altaria and Crawdaunt, to the straight up useless like Audino (why, just why was this one ever mentioned). Now it's my turn to throw my hat into the ring. Being cool isn't just throwing in some niche picks on your team. To me, innovating on an already good Pokemon is just as cool.
Chaos King (Kingambit) (M) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
I really want to bring attention to this set. I made an RMT featuring it as it has been very successful. I want to bring more attention to how great Darkinium Z Kingambit can be. It allows you to OHKO stuff like Toxapex, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and Alomomola after an SD, the Z lets you destroy something that might try to hinder your progress or threaten to KO you back with say, Body Press. There's also the nice perk of being immune to Trick.
Here are some fun calcs that show how destructive this set can be. It nets OHKOs on a lot of defensive things that would usually want to switch into Kingambit. Your opponent won't appreciate it when you open a Dark Fountain on their face.
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 490-577 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 411-484 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 351-414 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 313-370 (103.3 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's also this one, you live Landorus EQ from full HP, so if you want to trade for some reason, you can do this.
+1 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 340-402 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Here are some replays showcasing this set in action, having good evidence is better than showcasing some fancy calcs,
right?
OHKO'ing Alomomola so that the opponent couldn't Wish pass to their weakened teammates.
Here's a funny one where my opponent learns why I was running Kowtow Cleave over Knock Off the hard way.
A really close game where I gained the upper hand by OHKO'ing their Ferrothorn with the Z.
I've been using this set for quite a while now, and it's always fun to open a Dark Fountain on the face of some unfortunate Corviknight or Ferrothorn that think that they can Body Press my Kingambit. I believe it has some potential as it lets Kingambit break through bulkier teams a bit more easily by taking out their checks.
Feel free to try it for yourself, and have fun causing the Roaring!
Chaos King (Kingambit) (M) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
I really want to bring attention to this set. I made an RMT featuring it as it has been very successful. I want to bring more attention to how great Darkinium Z Kingambit can be. It allows you to OHKO stuff like Toxapex, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and Alomomola after an SD, the Z lets you destroy something that might try to hinder your progress or threaten to KO you back with say, Body Press. There's also the nice perk of being immune to Trick.
Here are some fun calcs that show how destructive this set can be. It nets OHKOs on a lot of defensive things that would usually want to switch into Kingambit. Your opponent won't appreciate it when you open a Dark Fountain on their face.
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 490-577 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 411-484 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 351-414 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 313-370 (103.3 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's also this one, you live Landorus EQ from full HP, so if you want to trade for some reason, you can do this.
+1 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 340-402 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Here are some replays showcasing this set in action, having good evidence is better than showcasing some fancy calcs,
right?OHKO'ing Alomomola so that the opponent couldn't Wish pass to their weakened teammates.
Here's a funny one where my opponent learns why I was running Kowtow Cleave over Knock Off the hard way.
A really close game where I gained the upper hand by OHKO'ing their Ferrothorn with the Z.
I've been using this set for quite a while now, and it's always fun to open a Dark Fountain on the face of some unfortunate Corviknight or Ferrothorn that think that they can Body Press my Kingambit. I believe it has some potential as it lets Kingambit break through bulkier teams a bit more easily by taking out their checks.
Feel free to try it for yourself, and have fun causing the Roaring!
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I definitely agree. Moon being a physical attacker and losing Tera definitely helps it be more reasonable. In addition to many teams having checks in Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Tusk, Moltres and others. It’s hazard weakness definitely helps to make it harder to switch in.
The problem set in my opinion will be banded on Zard-Y sun which I’ve discussed quite a bit. However another perk of being run on a Zard-Y sun team like the sample team, is having tons of hazard removal as most teams run great tusk + terapagos. On the whole it meshes really well into the archetype and can have its teammates cover its flaws very well. The only negative is you have two dragon types and a fighting type, but that could be fixed with adding a Corv, ferrothorn, heatran, or any other fairy resists.
As I’ve said before, it should definitely be suspected, and will probably be fine, but I can see a world where it’s too much.
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God forbid your opp has An actual kingambit counter then,Well, everyone has been discussing Pokemon that they believe to have some "potential", whether it be niche but underutilized picks that actually have potential like Altaria and Crawdaunt, to the straight up useless like Audino (why, just why was this one ever mentioned). Now it's my turn to throw my hat into the ring. Being cool isn't just throwing in some niche picks on your team. To me, innovating on an already good Pokemon is just as cool.
Chaos King (Kingambit) (M) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
I really want to bring attention to this set. I made an RMT featuring it as it has been very successful. I want to bring more attention to how great Darkinium Z Kingambit can be. It allows you to OHKO stuff like Toxapex, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and Alomomola after an SD, the Z lets you destroy something that might try to hinder your progress or threaten to KO you back with say, Body Press. There's also the nice perk of being immune to Trick.
Here are some fun calcs that show how destructive this set can be. It nets OHKOs on a lot of defensive things that would usually want to switch into Kingambit. Your opponent won't appreciate it when you open a Dark Fountain on their face.
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 490-577 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 411-484 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 351-414 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 313-370 (103.3 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's also this one, you live Landorus EQ from full HP, so if you want to trade for some reason, you can do this.
+1 252+ Atk Kingambit Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 340-402 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Here are some replays showcasing this set in action, having good evidence is better than showcasing some fancy calcs,
OHKO'ing Alomomola so that the opponent couldn't Wish pass to their weakened teammates.
Here's a funny one where my opponent learns why I was running Kowtow Cleave over Knock Off the hard way.
A really close game where I gained the upper hand by OHKO'ing their Ferrothorn with the Z.
I've been using this set for quite a while now, and it's always fun to open a Dark Fountain on the face of some unfortunate Corviknight or Ferrothorn that think that they can Body Press my Kingambit. I believe it has some potential as it lets Kingambit break through bulkier teams a bit more easily by taking out their checks.
Feel free to try it for yourself, and have fun causing the Roaring!
Roaring moon is a Mon that cannot take down all its checks and is prolly defensively manageable, but do we need more mons that auto drop to Dragapult if it gets one (1) predict right? do we need more sun attackers? dd spammers? Pokémon that pick and choose who tf they wanna drop?
Nah, Moon is fine as is, Banned.
I would wanna seee Dark shifu Unbanned. Bro was not even tested when Zysnek was, when; really, it has to click wicked blow to really damage like i wants, and wicked has switchins, like hands, buzzwole, tusk, and if it doesn't click wicked then it's "just" 130 attack we're talking about. Sure, there are the SD sets, and the Band sets, but with Zardy and Play rough waterpon can it afford to not run scarf? besides, it has to run scarf not to run away in fear of Lele, and even scarfed Cannot beat Speed Booster Valiant, and if it's locked into the wrong move (aka not Pjab) it can't deal with Koko. It's also a Nice way for HO to deal with Gambit at all times. DarkShifu is all fear and 0 perf and it's crazy to me that it's still banned and never retested
Bro wants Moon locked but Dark-Shifu freed
Anyway, about my thoughts on Moon, I take the stance of, “It’s probably ok to suspect, give it like 3 weeks, see if it’s broken, and either free it or keep it banned”, DD sets and Band sets on sun might be too hot to handle, but I feel it has a ton of counterplay with Fighting Types, Fairy Types, and the inability to Tera out of it’s less than desired typing, especially for this tier.
I also want to draw attention to a Pokémon that dosen’t get enough love:
(It’s mega Latias chill)This Pokémon is just a monster. Probably the best Yard check in the tier, and Calm Mind sets go crazy, with it’s bulk being able to take a lot of stray hits, set up, heal with Recover, and break through the opposing team with sp or psyshock. Ground immunity is also useful for Pokémon like Lando and em, gives chances to get in and set up. Although it is weak to the common pursuit users and is really only able to fit on more fattier teams, it”s still a consideration that most people don’t give the attention it deserves.
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Please for the love of god say that its mega latias. I had to right click the image just to find out what mon it was.Bro wants Moon locked but Dark-Shifu freed
Anyway, about my thoughts on Moon, I take the stance of, “It’s probably ok to suspect, give it like 3 weeks, see if it’s broken, and either free it or keep it banned”, DD sets and Band sets on sun might be too hot to handle, but I feel it has a ton of counterplay with Fighting Types, Fairy Types, and the inability to Tera out of it’s less than desired typing, especially for this tier.
I also want to draw attention to a Pokémon that dosen’t get enough love:
This Pokémon is just a monster. Probably the best Yard check in the tier, and Calm Mind sets go crazy, with it’s bulk being able to take a lot of stray hits, set up, heal with Recover, and break through the opposing team with sp or psyshock. Ground immunity is also useful for Pokémon like Lando and em, gives chances to get in and set up. Although it is weak to the common pursuit users and is really only able to fit on more fattier teams, it”s still a consideration that most people don’t give the attention it deserves.
As said, I could see it being too much on Sun, but checks are common enough it could be fine.
Given the fact you just complained about a dark type clicking strong dark moves, I’m going to assume this is a joke meant to further your points about roaring moon.
Which one? Really though both are great. They’re very marginally different with more special attack for Latios and Latias has some better bulk. But both can be bulky while also doing tons of damage. They’re easy to fit on a team, get aura sphere for the funny chess guy, and get a great 110 speed tier. I’ve been using them quite a bit recently and been enjoying it.I also want to draw attention to a Pokémon that dosen’t get enough love:
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by this vague statement, but I'm just gonna interpret it as "your opponents didn't bring offensive counters" or something like that.
So, that's why I slot something like Valiant, which beats common Kingambit counters like Tusk, I can also run something that takes their attacks (and can possibly chip them back with Rocky Helmet) like Slowbro or a Corviknight of my own. But that isn't really the point, it isn't meant to break its offensive counters like Tusk or Valiant. I doubt any of these counters would actually want to switch into Kingambit multiple times, especially since Iron Head can do sizable damage, or just outright delete the latter. You usually want to bring in a defensive pivot into Kingambit first, especially if your attackers are getting whittled down. That's where the Z comes in, you destroy their defensive pivot so that they can't switch in their more aggressive counters safely. This allows Kingambit's other teammates to deal with the opponent's other Pokemon without a Corviknight or Ferrothorn in the back. This set isn't about excelling against offense. Though it can still menace offensive teams, its moreso about breaking the fatter teams that rely on defensive pivoting or something like Body Press to handle Kingambit.
Like in this replay, my opponent couldn't just switch their Tusk into Kingambit. They needed to Wish pass with Alomomola first, but the Z move made sure that the Alomomola went down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2247922568-vi54jnvsu2umrrhf98kztzyere9djvypw?p2
dear god please no. think lowk kingambit but with an actual speed tier, mon is insanely devastating to face for most teams as its sucker mindgames are similarly potent, tearing apart defensive teams while having a great offensive speedtier/offense, in order to absolutely tear apart many teams.
with its speed tier and how hard it hits its able to destroy mons that would otherwise check gambit such as offensive tusk, kommo-o, and iron hands.
+2 252+ Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 340-402 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (if tusk is running headlong rush and not cc, it moves first, lowers its defense, then gets oneshot, all for just around 70% of ur hp)
+2 252+ Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 403-475 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Kommo-o: 313-370 (88.4 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
anything slower than it just gets vaporized, while faster pokemon that dont resist sucker punch also just die
tldr; we dont need faster gambit in the tier 0_0
Darkshifu wasn't touched because this gen introduced approximately one pokemon that actually defensively keeps it in check. Buzzwole and Hands are niche and difficult to fit, and Tusk is the only one who checks it (checks, as it gets rolled by banded CC). It only got buffed this gen and now could range outside of CB sets (it also sometimes ran LO, at least in SSOU it did I remember), and with SD it now completely flattens defense while still being difficult to check with offense due to Sucker Punch. You're just throwing random stuff out to try and rationalize this mon I feel and completely baselessly at that. What do ZardY or Wellspring have anything to do with it (also both drop to SD Sucker at +2 after rocks, and not needing rocks if Black Glasses or LO). It's crazy limited in defensive counterplay and it's not a healthy pokemon to have around at all. I don't know why you think it's crazy that tiering rightfully left the thing locked up (also I don't remember Zygarde ever being tested this gen).
Moon .
Not only can this profit from the best Mega in the tier, it resists most prios in the tier, it can choose between 1.3 Boost to attack or Choicedless Scarf, giving it almost an immunity to Koff. Besides, it has Crazy coverage in EQ, Acrobatics, Iron Head, literally, and I mean LITERALLY choosing who it's gon kill. it doesn't need to run dual STAB, rarely does in fact, and has crazy utility in roost jaw lock and more. it Casually outspeeds and Kills Booster Speed Valiant after a Jolly DD, Band IH/Pjb in Sun also breaks all the "hostile fairies". Like y'all don't seem to realize it gets literal integrated DD with Band Booster Speed in sun. this is INSANE.
DarkBear .
this does not even COMPARE with the insanity of Moon. Wicked blow was Nerfed and does not hit as hard, lacking 2HKOS it easily got back in gen 8. It's MUUUUCH slower, has low ahh special Bulk, gets Blasted by Grassy Glide revenge KO and is more likely To drop If vacuum Wave pops up, can't live a hit under Rain, under sun or on electric terrain, has To click wicked To do damage and Still doesnt do Nearly enough.
....
Adamant SD? nah boi when I bring Audino Calcs It's bad but that? This shi wouldnt Even Work on webs nah what are you smoking u wanna fit SD on a 4MSS mon that only Really gets value out of Scarf Because It's so Slow and frail on the special side (not taking a CC Anyways lMAO) +you bring calcs of 0HP iron hands,,,???? Bro what is wrong with you you're telling me ADA doesnt secure OHKO After SD Bro yea Ima Run ADA SD Mlade If you're so crazy about damage output yea these calcs smell poverty xd nah
real ones would test both
fr tho wicked blow has significantly higher bp than knock and ignores intim + dauntless which happen to be on the two best blanket physical checks in the tier which is a big deal. Dark/Dragon is also significantly worse stab than Dark/Fight but tbh darkshifu might have been okay with tera but without tera fairy u gotta out offense it or run regen + bulky dark resist which tbh is doable but no chance it gets any support from this playerbase
moon is also fine free him
I think you're forgetting that this guy has a Dark Type Flower Trick, and is practically unwallable with Poison Jab as coverage. It doesn't help that it now gets SD to boost its power to egregious levels, and stuff like Alomomola can't even Wish stall it because of Unseen Fist. Unlike Moon, Urshifu SS doesn't have to lock into Outrage and worry about getting revenge killed, and it doesn't have to worry about a dropoff in Knock Off damage in the long term if the opponent's Pokemon can just recover from the initial Knock Off. If you really wanted to, you could trade the Unseen Fist ability and equip Punching Glove to get some extra damage while becoming immune to stuff like Rocky Helmet, which might increase your longevity. Unlike Urshifu RS, it doesn't have to worry about clicking Surging Strikes into a Rocky Helm Ferrothorn and lose 90% of its health for existing. There's not much of a penalty for clicking Wicked Blow, and this guy also gets Sucker Punch, making revenge killing it even harder than it should be.
Also, when would Grassy Glide actually beat this? Unlike RS, it isn't weak to Grass, so you will need a sizable amount of chip to take this guy out. Also please name 3 actual Vacuum Wave users. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Valiant, and it'd much rather run something more powerful like Aura Sphere since it is already extremely fast with booster energy. SD Urshifu SS would be a nightmare to face on webs, it naturally outspeeds common Scarfers like Lele and can run Poison Jab to catch Fini or something on the switch. Roaring Moon is so much tamer than this guy because not only is it weak to U-Turn, but it also might be forced to commit to stuff like Outrage to secure a KO. Urshifu can just switch out freely and do comparable damage to a +1 Protosynthesis Moon Knock Off with Choice Band. I can't and don't want to see a world where this thing ever comes back.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu in Grassy Terrain: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 192-226 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 226-267 (56.6 - 66.9%)
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 379-447 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
Anyways, are you just gonna ignore my earlier question? If you have valid criticisms with the Kingambit set I mentioned, I'd like to hear them.
i dunno man, i just used the iron hands set that showed up first on the dmg calc, i dont go outta my way to research what the best/most optimal ihands set is to counteract urshifu. the calcs are rlly to just show the sheer damage output of urshifu and why it is not a good idea to suspect it, having swords dance is a helluva drug, and it can run multiple sets to mess up multiple pokemon. i used the ubers sd set for shifu, in nd, if for whatever reason we do decide to drop it, im sure it can run jolly but for the time being, my calcs were just there as a reminder as to why we shouldnt drop the stupid mon, with its good physical bulk and crazy damage output itd be dumb to.
banded is also smth i havent covered cause thats also bonkers dmg for no reason, dont think that has any defensive checks outside the niche buzzwole, as tusk gets 2hkod even with jolly
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 232-274 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Great Tusk: 180-213 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
even defensive tusk gets obliterated, and we have to remember that tusk has no recovery, this dmg is permanant unless you wishpass, meaning after a cc, tusk stops being an urshifu check at all.
fairies like clefable also struggle to switch in, as a poison jab just puts it out of commision
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 122-144 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
i put this calc here to show that if shifu gets one good pjab predict on lele, lele just fully stops functioning as a shifu check at all, as shifu just clicks wicked blow forever, even having a chance to ohko clef on the switch in after pjab
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 241-285 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
the crit is arguably the worst part, rendering lando useless against shifu
all in all, the mon is STUPIDLY strong, definitely too overbearing for the tier as, like toxic ariados mentioned, its dark flower trick and has no damage drop off, unlike koff. it essentially has no defensive checks in the tier, while roaring moon is easily intimidated, struggles to hit fairies (ik it has iron head but like... ur wasting a moveslot while shifu just has to drop sucker for pjab on band), and also has much more reliable stabs, while roaring moon's only way of dealing damage vs dark resistant mons like urshifu is to outrage it, and pray a fairy doesnt revenge.
U got buzzwole, Defensive Tusk, Iron hands, Zama checking it defensively, Valiant, Koko, MDia, Mlop, Zama, Torn T, PLay rough waterpon Outspeeding ad OHKOing, and Webs is ass as always so yea SD on webs is defo some 1300 material, like Boltbeam Deo Speed. Darkshifu doesn't get good calcs with Scarf, is Slow and frail so it can't really abuse Band, and has 0 potential as a SD attacker, just use Mlade for a faster option, Iron handds for a "aight Ima trade" option. Like, really, Y'all talking abt sucker punch? where. like genuinely where do you fit SP. SD sets? Unexistent, 4MSS, I guesss if u insist. Band? u lose either Uturn or coverage for fairies, you do not want to be passsive into such a dominating type. Scarf? same probs as band. Z sets? best you can do is Rockium Stone edge, not sucker punch. Useless to dunk on ppl banning Deospeed bc they hate change then reject Darkshifu. Y'all are literally talking abt 139 base attack 119 Base speed DD mon that can hit Half the tier for SE and doesn't need to to drop it. Scarf Darkbear gets Beaten by Moltres, and Band loses if it gets burnt, and SD is a ticket to 1400s, and gets RK'd rather easily.
You js don't beat actual counters, which, I mean, not every mon is supposed to be able to, so eh, good set ig
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 174-205 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 124 Def Zamazenta: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 161-189 (55.7 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring on a critical hit: 321-378 (106.6 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
btw u fit u-turn over sucker, banded sucker doesnt seem very good, kinda easy to take advantage of. just face it bruh, the mon has 0 defensive counterplay and will run ur team over by destroying everything in its path, as wicked blow is not the only stab it gets. sd sets can use sucker over pjab.
Stat comparisons are useless without factoring how the mons themselves play out in actual practice. Urshifu is a breaker busting down bulky teams with very limited defensive counterplay, and last gen necessitated two super specific checks to scout what CB would lock into so you didn't get blown up by mispredicting. This doesn't really change this gen at all. Wicked Blow was nerfed... by a whole 5BP which makes zero difference in any relevant match ups. Gets blasted by Grassy Glide? Not only not true but Rilla sucks without Tera (wasn't great with it but now really just not good), what pokemon is running Vacuum Wave that is relevant? Can't live a hit under rain... how is that relevant when it's a very specific playstyle which also is just okay right now. Most sun mons not named Tusk can't switch into it, and Electric Terrain?? Has to click Wicked to do damage (not true because Banded CC is nuts off 130 attack and adamant nature), and it doesn't do nearly enough damage? It still at worsts 2HKOs the bulkiest mons we have, and flattens most everything.
It's a wallbreaker. Adamant is great because it would still outrun the vast majority of defensive mons. This mon does not have any 4MSS when it can run CC+WB+Sucker and clean house, because guess what? We have one good bulky fairy in the tier. It doesn't need scarf because that's not it's job. Also you roll your eyes at the calcs but they're literally proving you wrong and you're effectively just sticking fingers in your ears and denying what people are saying without proof. The bulkiest dark checks can't take it with a single spike up and that Hands calc?
+2 252+ Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 403-475 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
even fat HP invested needs to stay majorly healthy to not get dropped by +2 CC.
Buzz is niche, hard to fit. Defensive Tusk has no recovery and has to be max HP and def to even hope to check it over the course of a game. As demonstrated Hands is not a good check as it can't handle SD and it like nearly everything you listed needs a back up which can scout Banded sets so it doesn't eat the other STAB it can't take, which is basically JUST toxapex and that forces incredibly predictable play patterns the Urshifu user can exploit. What, I'm not joking either.
Zama is 2HKOd by Banded CC with a spike up more often than not. Valiant can only pivot into Wicked Blow and takes 60% from Adamant banded CC, MDia can't switch in (CC OHKOs and Banded WB is a 2HKO), MLop can't switch in, Torn-T can't switch in, Waterpon can't switch in, none of these can switch in safely because they either are too frail, are 2HKOd by even the resisted CB WB or CC (Lop and Dia on WB, Val, Torn-T and Zama on CC). You're seriously not doing your arguments any favors by throwing all this out without doing some research first.
And it's SLOW? It's fast for a wallbreaker of its absurd strength. It has zero potential as an SD user? You're full of nonsense. Where do you fit Sucker? Main stabs+Sucker. Again, we have ONE good bulky fairy meaning it doesn't really need PJab and since it's a wallbreaker.
Respectfully, you need to to do research before trying to sound smarmy towards others trying to tell you why it's a bad idea to test this mon.
too much kinak "let's unban ___" larp
(ftr it's 12 am so this post is very lazily made)
issa dragon!
recently i've been testing mence for funsies in my leisure time and the results are like, not garbage at all. basically it functions as a more offensive version of dragonite where you trade off multiscale and bulk for a faster speed tier and two usable abilities instead of one. intimidate works to lower the offensive power of the opponent until they switch out instead of once with multiscale, enabling dragon dance set ups and subs, and moxie lets salamence spiral out of control with a singular kill.
the set variety with mence is pretty much identical to dnite, minus a couple of sets due to not having the distribution (like scale shot and extreme speed). here's a couple of ideas:
| 
| 
(slight variations could be made to these sets but these are the big picture ideas)
in my humble opinion, mence works better as a z sweeper than a regular sweeper. mence can afford dropping its boots for a z crystal more than dnite since it doesn't rely on being at full hp to utilize multiscale and can just use intimidate upon switch in. it also benefits moxie variants by being a nuke option to get easy kills on neutral targets and initiate the snowball
mence isn't without it's issues, like all mons in this tier. it basically suffers from all of the same issues dnite faces (weak to rocks, quad weak to ice, weak to fairy, struggles to do much without boosts, etc.), and gains a few weaknesses due to it's bulk being worse than dnite's. however, it does have some benefits over dnite, mainly not needing boots as much as dnite, as stated above, and having a significantly better speed tier. you REALLY start to notice the difference in speed when you are outspending and ohko'ing scarf gholdengos, urshifus, and tapu leles.
this isn't the greatest ddancer ever (it does face serious competition from dnite as a ddancer and dragapult or kommo-o as a z abuser), but i don't think it's ass. hopefully this mon will rise to uu :pray:
(ftr it's 12 am so this post is very lazily made)
issa dragon!
recently i've been testing mence for funsies in my leisure time and the results are like, not garbage at all. basically it functions as a more offensive version of dragonite where you trade off multiscale and bulk for a faster speed tier and two usable abilities instead of one. intimidate works to lower the offensive power of the opponent until they switch out instead of once with multiscale, enabling dragon dance set ups and subs, and moxie lets salamence spiral out of control with a singular kill.
the set variety with mence is pretty much identical to dnite, minus a couple of sets due to not having the distribution (like scale shot and extreme speed). here's a couple of ideas:
| | (slight variations could be made to these sets but these are the big picture ideas)
in my humble opinion, mence works better as a z sweeper than a regular sweeper. mence can afford dropping its boots for a z crystal more than dnite since it doesn't rely on being at full hp to utilize multiscale and can just use intimidate upon switch in. it also benefits moxie variants by being a nuke option to get easy kills on neutral targets and initiate the snowball
mence isn't without it's issues, like all mons in this tier. it basically suffers from all of the same issues dnite faces (weak to rocks, quad weak to ice, weak to fairy, struggles to do much without boosts, etc.), and gains a few weaknesses due to it's bulk being worse than dnite's. however, it does have some benefits over dnite, mainly not needing boots as much as dnite, as stated above, and having a significantly better speed tier. you REALLY start to notice the difference in speed when you are outspending and ohko'ing scarf gholdengos, urshifus, and tapu leles.
this isn't the greatest ddancer ever (it does face serious competition from dnite as a ddancer and dragapult or kommo-o as a z abuser), but i don't think it's ass. hopefully this mon will rise to uu :pray:
You do not seem To understand. Give me 5 hoopa-U Switchins. Darkshifu is basically Viable version of Unbound. Hits much lighter hits obv, but doesnt Die of pelipper U-turn. It's dropping Every mon slower than it, but if you got much of any Speed control (even base 100 works) ada cb or ada SD really, really shouldnt be destroying you. Smh y'all do NOT wanna admit it is Hazards weak, slow As shit and needs sigbificant boosts To its attack To work. 2HKO Zama is insignificant bc dawg forces you out and you are taking hazards. You drop To any moonblast, close combat or hurricane In the tier, like aight it might be A on the VR but definetely not broken.
I think I cooked too much with a defensive soft check set after my brain has been drain punched by a -6 -0 atk 
mgallade trying to convince us in dropping a ubers uu kind of pokemon. (I still respect them as a player but don't support their opinion on one thing right now).
Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Psychic Noise
- Slack Off
I don't use calcs 'cause it lags my laptop but yeah don't take this seriously. Also as I throw my hat into the ring (and immediately bring it away after this) for this weird argument. Kin+ak (✧∇✧) I appreciate your enthusiasm but I'm wondering why it doesn't come into your mind that most people will probably be forced to use HO once again so it can cover one of the many broken mons in this tier if ot gets dropped?
mgallade trying to convince us in dropping a ubers uu kind of pokemon. (I still respect them as a player but don't support their opinion on one thing right now).Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Psychic Noise
- Slack Off
I don't use calcs 'cause it lags my laptop but yeah don't take this seriously. Also as I throw my hat into the ring (and immediately bring it away after this) for this weird argument. Kin+ak (✧∇✧) I appreciate your enthusiasm but I'm wondering why it doesn't come into your mind that most people will probably be forced to use HO once again so it can cover one of the many broken mons in this tier if ot gets dropped?
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