Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

0 Atk Orthworm Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 84-102 (20.7 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

you know you... Body Press the kyurem, right?


Anyways Some more ragebait I think All spinners have an optiion to get put of gholdengo, EP, HLR, EQ etc. so I thought it's e time to run another spinblocker. You know me it'll be yet again a RU mon, but this time it's one known to be bulky and Effective in what it does. I named:
Galarsola!
Now why would I use another KGB + Ttar -weak mon as a spinblocker? Because this fella here owns KGB and Ttar.
252+ Atk Kingambit Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
It does not reach 2/3 of your life so you do live the next one by Will-o ing, and then you Strength sap back to full. Galarsola sets rocks in the face of Gtusk and Strength saps it to heal for fre, 16 PP guys. it goes Night shade not to be too passive, so even tho it does not 1v1 Spinner #2 of the tier Terapagos, imo it still has a good Efficiency as a spinblocker. Galar sola is also Absolutely goated as a zama check, strength sap letting it not fear crunch drops as much. night shade is guaranteed to break sub, too. it also does not fear any shenaniga, buzzwole can throw at it except max hp sub bu darkest lariat. so you're safe.

 

[Comett7778]

Anyways, let's switch the topic to something else. Roaring Moon.

I think if anything were to be suspected it should be Moon. It’s d dance sets are nerfed thanks to the loss of Tera, which makes it defensive sets worse, loses options for Tera blast coverage, and losses the ability to spam boosted Tera flying acrobatics. And the addition of terapagos is helpful as it is. incredible at stopping setup monsters like moon. It also hates status and priority is in general very good into it.

Now for the big problem. Choiced Roaring Moon would be great for Zard-Y teams. You would have the usual 4 of Zard-Y, Raging Bolt, Tusk, and Terapagos, and then throw on moon and something else(probably a slow pivot) and you’re got a team with great damage out put. The main thing that would hold this team back is having a moltres, and keeping up rocks. But this team could definitely prove too over centralizing.

Like many others I think it’s worth a suspect, but I do see a world in which it’s too much.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

you know you... Body Press the kyurem, right?


Anyways Some more ragebait I think All spinners have an optiion to get put of gholdengo, EP, HLR, EQ etc. so I thought it's e time to run another spinblocker. You know me it'll be yet again a RU mon, but this time it's one known to be bulky and Effective in what it does. I named:
Galarsola!
Now why would I use another KGB + Ttar -weak mon as a spinblocker? Because this fella here owns KGB and Ttar.
252+ Atk Kingambit Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
It does not reach 2/3 of your life so you do live the next one by Will-o ing, and then you Strength sap back to full. Galarsola sets rocks in the face of Gtusk and Strength saps it to heal for fre, 16 PP guys. it goes Night shade not to be too passive, so even tho it does not 1v1 Spinner #2 of the tier Terapagos, imo it still has a good Efficiency as a spinblocker. Galar sola is also Absolutely goated as a zama check, strength sap letting it not fear crunch drops as much. night shade is guaranteed to break sub, too. it also does not fear any shenaniga, buzzwole can throw at it except max hp sub bu darkest lariat. so you're safe.

I'm gonna be honest, this one ain't it.

Corsola is like, very VERY passive. Night Shade won't really cut it as your only attacking move, you are incredibly slow and prone to hazard damage, which kinda sucks as a spinblocker. If I wanted to use a bulky spinblocker I would run Pecharunt, which can actually menace the opponent with Malignant Chain and Parting Shot. The opponent can just use their brain and switch to a special attacker on your Strength Saps. And lets be real, you are NOT coming in on a Knock Off on the switch. You need that precious Eviolite to maintain your bulk. The reason Corsola sucks so badly is because it needs Eviolite to function, whereas other bulky spinblockers like Gholdengo and Pecharunt do not.

You do not "own" Kingambit & Tyranitar, you're forced to come in safely or else you lose your Eviolite. It doesn't help that anyone sensible wouldn't stay in on a Wisp with Tyranitar or Kingambit unless they desperately need that Knock Off. And even if you did come in safely, what is stopping the opponent from switching out from your Strength Sap or Wisp? I'm sure whatever special attackers they have won't fear 100 damage from Night Shade unless they are on their last legs. Sure it beats Zamazenta, but Pecharunt is the superior option for that, with Malignant Chain to force the Zamazenta out and threaten whatever else comes in, and Parting Shot to escape if they bring in something slower. It's only real use is bullying Great Tusk and Iron Treads, but there are other Pokemon that do that and more, like Dragapult. Dragapult can't switch in on HLR or Ice Spinner but it really isn't that hard to play around those moves. Oh, and both of the Paradonphans learn Knock Off, so if they catch you with that then have fun losing a good chunk of your defenses.

Seriously, run Pecharunt instead. It's fat, works as a decent spinblocker (if you wanna threaten Tusk you can run Air Balloon), has a pivot move, and has arguably one of the most obnoxious moves in the game, second to Dire Claw.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I'm gonna be honest, this one ain't it.

Corsola is like, very VERY passive. Night Shade won't really cut it as your only attacking move, you are incredibly slow and prone to hazard damage, which kinda sucks as a spinblocker. If I wanted to use a bulky spinblocker I would run Pecharunt, which can actually menace the opponent with Malignant Chain and Parting Shot. The opponent can just use their brain and switch to a special attacker on your Strength Saps. And lets be real, you are NOT coming in on a Knock Off on the switch. You need that precious Eviolite to maintain your bulk. The reason Corsola sucks so badly is because it needs Eviolite to function, whereas other bulky spinblockers like Gholdengo and Pecharunt do not.

You do not "own" Kingambit & Tyranitar, you're forced to come in safely or else you lose your Eviolite. It doesn't help that anyone sensible wouldn't stay in on a Wisp with Tyranitar or Kingambit unless they desperately need that Knock Off. And even if you did come in safely, what is stopping the opponent from switching out from your Strength Sap or Wisp? I'm sure whatever special attackers they have won't fear 100 damage from Night Shade unless they are on their last legs. Sure it beats Zamazenta, but Pecharunt is the superior option for that, with Malignant Chain to force the Zamazenta out and threaten whatever else comes in, and Parting Shot to escape if they bring in something slower. It's only real use is bullying Great Tusk and Iron Treads, but there are other Pokemon that do that and more, like Dragapult. Dragapult can't switch in on HLR or Ice Spinner but it really isn't that hard to play around those moves. Oh, and both of the Paradonphans learn Knock Off, so if they catch you with that then have fun losing a good chunk of your defenses.

Seriously, run Pecharunt instead. It's fat, works as a decent spinblocker (if you wanna threaten Tusk you can run Air Balloon), has a pivot move, and has arguably one of the most obnoxious moves in the game, second to Dire Claw.

So instead of using Corsola, who does not fear the ground type moves used by spinners to bypass spinblockers, I should use... a Ground-Weak mon?

Besides, Ttar and KGB will koff and get Karma'd because in ALL honesty won't you koff that JUICY ghost type? besides, Pecha is weak to psychic and ground, and doesn't have wow or rocks. it has lower special bulk and Recover is only 8PP. You REALLY dislike what is not on the VR huh?

 

[Heatranator]

So instead of using Corsola, who does not fear the ground type moves used by spinners to bypass spinblockers, I should use... a Ground-Weak mon?

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Pecharunt: 218-260 (57.3 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All I will say is that pecha tanks this quite well (for a super effective move), so if I have to choose between a useless blob of a mon or something like pecharunt, I think I'm choosing pecharunt 100 times out of 100. You can also use dragapult or sinistcha as options to stop tusk from spinning, as they do quite well into it (sinisctha strength saps back the damage from ice spinner).

Besides, Ttar and KGB will koff and get Karma'd because in ALL honesty won't you koff that JUICY ghost type?

I mean, sure they might, nevermind that they HEAVILY and I mean HEAVILY cripple corsola in the process, so now it can't answer physical sweepers like SD Urshifu effectively. And if you miss wisp, well you are entirely screwed because now cursola is crippled and you are now going to be ko'd by knock off.

besides, Pecha is weak to psychic and ground, and doesn't have wow or rocks.

Sure, but it also is a lot less passive into basically everything else due to parting shot. We also have a very good ghost type with will-o-wisp. Its called dragapult. You could also use skeledirge or mega sableye if you really wanted to (heck, sableye doesn't need to fit rocks as it can bounce back the opponents) as a bulky ghost. They may be less bulky, but they offer a lot more in return (skeledirge is a sweeper, sableye has knock+magic bounce and prankster in its base form).

You REALLY dislike what is not on the VR huh?

Well, if they actually had a good niche, sure, people might consider it. But corsola is nothing but a passive blob that lets in anything that doesn't care about wisp/night shade. What's stopping raging bolt from just clicking t-bolt on you constantly after one calm mind and forcing to spam weaker strength saps? What's stopping volcarona from clicking flamethrower and roosting off the damage? What's stopping sub roost kyurem from getting free subs on you? What's stopping heatran from getting a flash fire boost and then either toxic'ing or magma storming you? What's stopping mega diancie from getting up lots of layers or just blasting you with moonblast? (due to m-bounce, you in fact heal diancie lol) The answer: Not much. Theres a reason why its UR, its not good.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

So instead of using Corsola, who does not fear the ground type moves used by spinners to bypass spinblockers, I should use... a Ground-Weak mon?

Besides, Ttar and KGB will koff and get Karma'd because in ALL honesty won't you koff that JUICY ghost type? besides, Pecha is weak to psychic and ground, and doesn't have wow or rocks. it has lower special bulk and Recover is only 8PP. You REALLY dislike what is not on the VR huh?

Ok first of all, Pecharunt can run Air Balloon if you want to alleviate the matchup against stuff like Tusk. Balloon is honestly pretty hard to call out on team preview, odds are they won't expect it, since Boots and Leftovers are also viable options. Also:

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Pecharunt: 152-182 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Pecharunt: 206-246 (54.2 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This spread reaches 220 Speed with 32 EVs to outspeed Defensive Landorus, the rest goes into Defense. You can Recover spam on Tusk and kill it with pretty much anything if it just spams HLR. If you think they're gonna spin you have at least one free switch. If you catch a spin, now you can either Parting Shot into something to punish the HLR/EQ and force the spinner out, finding a chance to Recover later, or attack into the opponent for whatever reason. Or you can just run Air Balloon and completely blank the opponent's chances of hurting you entirely, even if they use Ice Spinner you can Parting Shot into something else. Pecharunt is fat enough to allow for some room for error, and it has a pivot move to escape no matter what the opponent does. It really helps that Malignant Chain is a huge deterrent for non-Steel Types trying to switch into it.

If Corsola catches a spin the opponent is likely to just switch to a special attacker. Special attackers won't care about Wisp, and they know they can get one free hit in because you have no way of pivoting out. What makes a good spinblocker is something that is able to keep momentum or penalize the opponent for their mistake. Corsola can't do any of these things, the best it can do is shoot out a Wisp or get Stealth Rocks up on a mistimed spin, which will almost always result in the opponent switching into some special attacker. Did I also mention that you can't Strength Sap Gholdengo? If your opponent has one of those on their team you aren't gonna get any recovers off. Sinking all of your momentum just to stop one Rapid Spin is just not a good play for most teams, if I really needed to run a momentum-draining spinblocker that could shoot out Wisps I would run Sableye. Sableye is just better for those bulkier teams that don't really need to keep up momentum because it also doubles as hazard control.

Also, I don't know what players you are fighting but I'm sure they don't think in the long term if they got their Tyranitars & Kingambits screwed over by a Corsola Wisp. Again, a more sensible player would be smart enough to not immediately click the super effective move. It's like if a Dragapult was on the field and you thought: "okay time to click Knock Off because it does big damage, who cares about possible repercussions later on in the battle, right?" And that isn't even the best example because Dragapult isn't as passive as Corsola. No one with good battle tactics will actually let their attackers get crippled by an incredibly passive Pokemon. If they do and lose because of that then that is completely on them, you have to fight better opponents.

Also, you are quite bold to say that I "dislike what is not on the VR". If you have seen some of my battles you would know that I occasionally run unranked Pokemon. I have used Okidogi and the [[BIG SHOT]] Armarouge on some of my teams and they have actually worked. I know what untapped potential looks like.

(I definitely plan on talking about Armarouge later on, that Pokemon is incredibly underrated and can pack a punch under Psychic Terrain.)

 

[slopcat]

Anyways, let's switch the topic to something else. Roaring Moon.

I feel like we are due for a suspect test on this guy, to me it doesn't seem too overwhelming due to its typing creating many exploitable weaknesses. Seriously, being a U-Turn weak sweeper is just such a bad quality to have, and being quad weak to Fairy also doesn't help it. I have a feeling that it'll have a bit of trouble actually setting up. I can see Z sets being the most prevalent, but Choice Band under Sun support might also be a popular option because we have Charizard Y to set Sun and dish out huge damage, its a perfect partner for Roaring Moon. I don't know how choiced sets will fare in practice, but my guess is that they will have to get too many turns correct to be threatening. Clicking U-Turn a bunch of times makes you very prone to Zapdos and Moltres' status effects, and while Knock Off or Outrage can be powerful, they aren't necessarily moves you want to lock into often. Outrage lets you get revenge killed by pretty much any Fairy Type in the game due to your quad weakness, and Knock Off has a good amount of switch-ins that are very common in the format (ex. Tyranitar, Valiant, Koko, the latter isn't the best but it can work in an emergency or if you are running Z). While taking an item with Knock Off is nice, it isn't the greatest option in the long term as it suffers from a huge damage drop off. If the target can find a way to heal off the damage you dealt, they can potentially switch in much more easily on a Knock Off. Against more offensive teams, choiced Moon can be dangerous, but against defensive ones I can see it struggling a bit.

I think Z sets are where the money is at. Z Outrage is already a very popular choice for stuff like Dragonite or Garchomp, it's a powerful one time attack that can eliminate pretty much anything that doesn't resist it if the user has an attack boost. Roaring Moon seems like a great user of this, it's fast, strong, and has access to Dragon Dance. However, Roaring Moon is extremely prone to U-Turn and priority like Fake Out, which makes trying to set up a bit difficult. Stuff like Landorus can switch into you to lower your Attack then just U-Turn for a good 50% or so. It'll take a good amount of effort to position Roaring Moon for a sweep, otherwise you are vulnerable to Thunder Wave, Toxic, U-Turn, Moonblast, etc.

Well, perhaps I'm wrong and Roaring Moon turns out to be some unstoppable beast that eradicates everything in its path. I think that on paper, Moon seems extremely destructive, but in practice its poor defensive typing and middling physical bulk might hold it down.

the problem with moon is that it is the fucking mascot for hyper offense in gen 9 and its a pretty huge teambuildng strain. like you said it has a tough time actually setting up versus a lot of the tier, and it kinda sucks to be a contact move button clicker in this metagame when your only move is knock; HOWEVER. that knock is doing comedy damage. 2hko moltres ferro lando zap yard melm corv and so many others means shit gets brutal very very quick. if you dont rock an unaware clef you WILL be getting folded almost instantly at +1 with booster atk. im looking at this and its some vile numbers

you don't just need a knock absorber, you need a mon that can actually hit back without getting absolutely boiled which essentially brings it down to like, mtar lmfao. this pokemon drops fucking nukes without crazy counterbuilding and i dont think thats a great thing to be sliding into the metagame especially when the tier feels very very nice at this point imo.

 

[Moisture99]

If we're going off sv ou, it's generally agreed upon over there that moon, at least traditional knock/acro/eq, is more of a farmer of bad teams than anything particularly busted. It's also quite dependent on tera to actually sweep and without it is relegated to breaking, which it does a good job of but should rarely get more than one ko if you play correctly against it. The truly scary sets over there are bulky tera ground with roost which would be unviable here without tera ground eq getting through fat fighting types.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Ok first of all, Pecharunt can run Air Balloon if you want to alleviate the matchup against stuff like Tusk. Balloon is honestly pretty hard to call out on team preview, odds are they won't expect it, since Boots and Leftovers are also viable options. Also:

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Pecharunt: 152-182 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Pecharunt: 206-246 (54.2 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

wait till you hear bout Air Balloon Gholdengo. if you're gon go for air balloon pecharunt as a spinblocker, I assure 70% of things it does is done better by ghold.
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 72-85 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO

the calcs are just better.

You can Recover spam on Tusk

and Recover is only 8PP

I thought I was maybe a bit too stubborn. But this is hard to look at. at some point I'll just post my messages and ignore the answers because the answers somehow manage to ignore my message.

useless blob of a mon

useless blob of a mon, that's sooo useless it somehow checks Shifu, Zama, Mlop, Dnite, offensive chomp, tusk, Setting rocks, and if you're not setting rocks you got that sweet Mirror Coat to beat Lele, Yard, Koko, and to secure the Valiant MU. sure, it's weak to Spikes, as a spinblocker, and uh, realistically, it's not that much of a deal? if you don't manage to remove hazards at all you're probs not playing optimally why blame the spinblocker who can strength sap ANY pokemon in the tier to gain back the lost HP?

so yknow what,





how would you define Define Victini's role in sun teams (it's on the VR y'all for once)

 

[Heatranator]

the calcs are just better.

That has NEVER been the issue with corsola. Its calcs are pretty great but calcs aren't everything in pokemon. Otherwise I would be using avalugg in OU cause it takes so little damage from everything.
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 170-204 (43.1 - 51.7%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
Mind you this is a 120 bp move off a 120 base attack that is super effective, and its barely able to 2hit ko it.

useless blob of a mon, that's sooo useless it somehow checks Shifu, Zama, Mlop, Dnite, offensive chomp, tusk, Setting rocks, and if you're not setting rocks you got that sweet Mirror Coat to beat Lele, Yard, Koko, and to secure the Valiant MU. sure, it's weak to Spikes, as a spinblocker, and uh, realistically, it's not that much of a deal? if you don't manage to remove hazards at all you're probs not playing optimally why blame the spinblocker who can strength sap ANY pokemon in the tier to gain back the lost HP?

This just confuses me. Firstly, lets look at all the mons it can't even begin to check:
Mega-Charizard Y
Diancie Mega
Dragapult
Gholdengo
Gliscor
Hatterene
Heatran
Iron Crown
Iron Valiant
Kingambit
Kyurem
Raging Bolt
Samurott Hisui
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Terapagos
Tyranitar
Volcarona
All of these pokemon either threaten it a lot, or use it as a setup opportunity.
Secondly, how are you fitting all the moves you want on it, you need night shade, wisp and strength sap (btw, strength sap is a great move but it has real drawbacks of being a lot worse into special attackers and not being great into SD users), and need to fit all of stealth rocks to make consistent progress (and something that you have harped on about it having over other ghosts), haze in order to not be setup fodder to any special attacker and now apparently mirror coat (which will probably not work since any smart player will use the mon that does very little to them is a perfect setup opportunity). You cannot fit everything in there and thus, are going to be a liability/have less reason to use it.

Why don't you use sinistcha? That's a pretty bulky ghost type with strength sap that can also spread burns by attacking, meaning it doesn't instalose to taunt. Sinistcha isn't ranked rn in the VR, but it at least has some traits like screwing over non icium z tusk entirely, countering waterpon pretty well, and potentially being a setup sweeper with cm. Or what about skeledirge or mega sableye? What does it have over them? "8 recovery pp" cool, that's still a lot better then your opponent switching to a special attacker and getting a free setup opportunity or ability to start spamming attacks.

I will blame the spinblocker because there is no reason to use it over other spinblockers it comes at very large liability costs with its only thing being, cool, more bulk ig (nevermind the fact that bulk is worsened by the fact it is chipped by hazards, yes mega sableye is too but magic bounce alleviates that somewhat, and its deadly afraid of knock off). There is a reason why it can't even find a niche in NDRU, its simply too passive of a blob. Honestly, this is not a hill to die on. As somebody who does use UR mons constantly, I know when a mon is actually worthy of being used or not most of the time. Just because I used venomoth in RU and it worked alright doesn't mean I think its good, far from it. And from what I can see, yeah, no, corsola is not one of them.

 

[Sami]

wait till you hear bout Air Balloon Gholdengo. if you're gon go for air balloon pecharunt as a spinblocker, I assure 70% of things it does is done better by ghold.
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 72-85 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO

Gholdengo can't pivot unlike Pecharunt and Pecharunt is not nearly as Reliant on its item unlike Galarian Corsola is. Pecharunt also has a more spammable STAB move than Gholdengo does in Malignant Chain which makes it arguably more annoying for BO teams to deal with since would-be answers like Hisuian Samurott and Mega Tyranitar really don't like being chipped down, especially compared to the unreliable Focus Blast. Pecharunt also does a much better job af handling Swords Dance Iron Valiant compared to Gholdengo due to its physical bulk, especially when Swords Dance Iron Valiant is arguably its best set right now.

useless blob of a mon, that's sooo useless it somehow checks Shifu, Zama, Mlop, Dnite, offensive chomp, tusk, Setting rocks, and if you're not setting rocks you got that sweet Mirror Coat to beat Lele, Yard, Koko, and to secure the Valiant MU. sure, it's weak to Spikes, as a spinblocker, and uh, realistically, it's not that much of a deal? if you don't manage to remove hazards at all you're probs not playing optimally why blame the spinblocker who can strength sap ANY pokemon in the tier to gain back the lost HP?

Mega Lopunny and Urshifu-R can just pivot out into literally anything that abuses Galarian Corsola; Garchomp is still able to get Stealth Rocks up versus Corsola while +2 Garchomp can muscle through if Galarian Corsola has been chipped down (aka by hazards), similarly to Dragonite, while Great Tusk has Knock Off which is basically a death sentence for Corsola cuz that's most of its bulk gone instantly.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 297-351 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 229-270 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 200-240 (61.7 - 74%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 211-249 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is actually a similar amount of bulk to Pecharunt...

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Pecharunt: 345-406 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

So... it's not really checking them more effectively than Pecharunt, Corviknight or Skarmory (all of which are far less passive through U-turn, Parting Shot, Whirlwind, Iron Defense and Malignant Chain), which definitely doesn't make up for it's weakness to hazards and insane passivity into any special attacker, who can just repeatedly setup on you (CM Tapu Lele for example) and even bait out Mirror Coat which is gimmicky as hell.

Also on a side note, stop posting gigantic ass PNGs on the forums, its really annoying to read and it doesn't help that your posts are filled with waffle anyways. You're just clogging up the thread for no reason.

guys i recently started playing an interesting fairy type and would like to talk about it
View attachment 703341
wowee look at this big big image

besides walling dragapult, azurill is a very powerful attacker that can go boom and snipe shit with its crazy coverage, as i will now proceed to demonstrate with these calcs that aren't separated by multiple line breaks:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azurill Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Buzzwole: 360-428 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azurill Waterfall vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azurill Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Gholdengo: 506-596 (133.8 - 157.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and look, it's super super tanky, nothing even ohkos it
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Azurill: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

everyone go try out this awesome cool and definitely good pokemon

There's a reason this post was made

 

[Comett7778]

how would you define Define Victini's role in sun teams (it's on the VR y'all for once)

First time you’ve talked about a shitmon that I think is actually good. Victini is relegated to sun teams and is almost always running a choice set to either do big damage, or out speed threats. It’s pretty much sun team’s click buttons for big damage mon. However it does get walled by most common sun team’s answers like pex and moltres, if you don’t predict with coverage.

The typical sun team victini set tends to always run V-Create, Bolt Strike, and U-turn. Then either final gambit, zen headbut, or trick. You can usually get value out of it just because of the sheer damage V-Create can do. It’s definitely good in sub teams but is nothing crazy or revolutionary. It’s just a click button in sub for big damage mon that’s a physical attacker and is fast with scarf. The VR does it justice and B- may even be a bit too high, with C+ also seeming pretty reasonable, due to it being restricted to sun teams.

Also Z-Celebrate sets are dogshit and are just low ladder cheese. If you have a Gambit or any other priority you should be fine into them. It’s just a check to make sure you actually made a functional team.

Now my final thing I wanna say is a bit off topic but it’s, Victini V.S. Roaring Moon.

The Sun Sample Team by Seth:
https://pokepast.es/fbdfd4856ec46745
The Sun Sample Team but with Moon:
https://pokepast.es/9d3767676359de5d

Moon would in my opinion be a better Victini. It would hit like a truck while also removing items and having good coverage options. Both Scarf and Banded would be viable as well. It would give This specific sun team’s a fairy and fighting weakness, meaning you would probably want to swap gambit out for something, but it gets the idea of the breaking core across. A team like this would be the one thing that could make Moon ban worthy in my opinion.

 

[Spookcooke]

The Sun Sample Team but with Moon:
https://pokepast.es/9d3767676359de5d

moon would prolly run banded speed booster, rather than scarfed atk booster on sun teams imo, as with scarf atk boost u get 1.3x dmg from booster compared to 1.5x dmg from band. going ada also gets u outsped and revenged by ival

useless blob of a mon, that's sooo useless it somehow checks Shifu, Zama, Mlop, Dnite, offensive chomp, tusk, Setting rocks, and if you're not setting rocks you got that sweet Mirror Coat to beat Lele, Yard, Koko, and to secure the Valiant MU. sure, it's weak to Spikes, as a spinblocker, and uh, realistically, it's not that much of a deal? if you don't manage to remove hazards at all you're probs not playing optimally why blame the spinblocker who can strength sap ANY pokemon in the tier to gain back the lost HP?

ur mon is basically chansey, sounds pretty good in theory, gets good calcs, but in practice its the most passive blob ever, gets chipped insanely easily by hazards (doesnt even get natural cure so tspikes are an issue u have to solve beforehand), and anything that isnt affected by status eats u for food (worse for corsola cause wisp basically doesnt effect half the game).

 

[Comett7778]

Galarsola!

We’re gonna play a little game here. I’m going to list the things you don’t want in a wall and then I’m going to list the problems with Galarian Corsola and we’re gonna see if their is any overlap.

A wall/spinblocker shouldn’t, struggle with hazards, susceptible to status, weak to knock-off(both type wise and likes it’s item), have no recovery, bad stats, and be too passive.

Now the problems with Galarian Corsola, it struggle with hazards, is susceptible to status, is weak to knock-off(both type wise and likes it’s item), bad stats(without Eviolite) and is too passive.

You see how almost everything overlaps? Galarian Corsola cannot properly wall. It is a low ladder mon that only can cheese poorly built teams and provides nothing else of substance to your team. With out thinking about it most teams have a counter. Even hazards + knock-off is a sufficient counter, because without its Eviolite it can’t take hits and is easy to chip. I kinda sorta guess I could see it in stall? But even then Mega Sableye fills a similar role with far less problems.

And it contributes very little as a spin blocker besides being a spin blocker. As an avid Pecharunt enthusiast, I’ve got to agree with the people above saying Pecharunt fills a similar roll far better.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

wait till you hear bout Air Balloon Gholdengo. if you're gon go for air balloon pecharunt as a spinblocker, I assure 70% of things it does is done better by ghold.
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 72-85 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO

I did mention that the Paradonphans get Knock Off, they can run that as a good midground option to cripple stuff like Moltres and Zapdos and they are more than likely to hit you with it on the switch. Say goodbye to your precious bulk. Pecharunt can also pivot on the opponent's switch, which Gholdengo cannot do. It also deters any non-steel type switch-in with Malignant Chain. While Air Balloon Gholdengo is better at immediately threatening the opponent's hazard remover, Pecharunt has much better utility and can threaten whatever they switch into with Parting Shot and Malignant Chain.

I thought I was maybe a bit too stubborn. But this is hard to look at. at some point I'll just post my messages and ignore the answers because the answers somehow manage to ignore my message.

Maybe I wasn't too clear on this but the reason you would Recover spam on a Tusk is to put it in Shadow Ball range (which should only take 2 or 3 Recovers, honestly not a lot.) You can also use it to condition the Tusk or whatever the enemy Pokemon is to use a Ground move, then you can switch in to something that can take that move and outspeed, forcing the hazard remover out without getting a Rapid Spin. Also, when do you ever use up all 8 Recovers? The only times I've ever used up 8 Recovers on my Pecharunt were when I was up against much bulkier teams or stall. 8 Recovers is more than enough to get you through a match.

useless blob of a mon, that's sooo useless it somehow checks Shifu, Zama, Mlop, Dnite, offensive chomp, tusk, Setting rocks, and if you're not setting rocks you got that sweet Mirror Coat to beat Lele, Yard, Koko, and to secure the Valiant MU. sure, it's weak to Spikes, as a spinblocker, and uh, realistically, it's not that much of a deal? if you don't manage to remove hazards at all you're probs not playing optimally why blame the spinblocker who can strength sap ANY pokemon in the tier to gain back the lost HP?

For every Pokemon you check, you also lose to 3 more, most of them being special attackers. Mirror Coat also doesn't stop the Nasty Plots or Calm Minds from coming in. I would gladly take the more consistent Recover over a 16 PP move that can be screwed over by Gholdengo, Magic Bounce, and almost any special attacker. Corsola relies too much on its item, and once that is Knocked it becomes really susceptible to damage from the stuff it was supposed to stop.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think if anything were to be suspected it should be Moon. It’s d dance sets are nerfed thanks to the loss of Tera, which makes it defensive sets worse, loses options for Tera blast coverage, and losses the ability to spam boosted Tera flying acrobatics. And the addition of terapagos is helpful as it is. incredible at stopping setup monsters like moon. It also hates status and priority is in general very good into it.

Now for the big problem. Choiced Roaring Moon would be great for Zard-Y teams. You would have the usual 4 of Zard-Y, Raging Bolt, Tusk, and Terapagos, and then throw on moon and something else(probably a slow pivot) and you’re got a team with great damage out put. The main thing that would hold this team back is having a moltres, and keeping up rocks. But this team could definitely prove too over centralizing.

Like many others I think it’s worth a suspect, but I do see a world in which it’s too much.

on the one hand, i think roaring moon would be an excellent candidate for a suspect. on the other hand, even though the meta has drastically changed, i feel like its last suspect is still recent enough that we should be looking elsewhere right now

i would like to suggest a retest of palafin. during its trial run in vanilla ou, palafin turned out to be somewhat less broken than was initially thought, and the resounding vote to keep it in ubers had more to do with palafin exacerbating vanilla ou's ongoing and likely unsolvable threat-saturation problem than palafin itself being broken as a mon (which, don't get me wrong, it still was). although vanilla ou is far from a perfect metric for us to make tiering decisions by, i think the differences between natdex and the main tiers hurt palafin more than they help it—several of the factors that make urshifu-r more reasonable here, such as the ferrothorn's existence, the continued presence of archaludon, and the prevalence of extremely good sun structures, also apply to palafin. oh yeah, and it can't tera to avoid getting smacked right in its bottlenosed face by the fattest grassy glide or thunderclap you've ever seen, or boost the power of its banded moves in rain to gouging fire/chi-yu/[third stupid sun guy] levels, or use the fairy tera blast tech that people started running on it midway through the suspect, or any nonsense like that. so based on the data i have available to me, i think that palafin would be the perfect candidate for our next suspect

 

[Moyashi]

on the one hand, i think roaring moon would be an excellent candidate for a suspect. on the other hand, even though the meta has drastically changed, i feel like its last suspect is still recent enough that we should be looking elsewhere right now

Moon had its suspect last February so it definitely has been long enough between then and now (almost a full year).

i would like to suggest a retest of palafin. during its trial run in vanilla ou, palafin turned out to be somewhat less broken than was initially thought, and the resounding vote to keep it in ubers had more to do with palafin exacerbating vanilla ou's ongoing and likely unsolvable threat-saturation problem than palafin itself being broken as a mon (which, don't get me wrong, it still was). although vanilla ou is far from a perfect metric for us to make tiering decisions by, i think the differences between natdex and the main tiers hurt palafin more than they help it—several of the factors that make urshifu-r more reasonable here, such as the ferrothorn's existence, the continued presence of archaludon, and the prevalence of extremely good sun structures, also apply to palafin. oh yeah, and it can't tera to avoid getting smacked right in its bottlenosed face by the fattest grassy glide or thunderclap you've ever seen, or boost the power of its banded moves in rain to gouging fire/chi-yu/[third stupid sun guy] levels, or use the fairy tera blast tech that people started running on it midway through the suspect, or any nonsense like that. so based on the data i have available to me, i think that palafin would be the perfect candidate for our next suspect

The idea of a Palafin suspect down the road especially in a Tera less meta game is feasible and I’d support it eventually, but it didn’t receive enough support compared to other stuff in the most recent survey to justify one so soon. Granted there could always be another survey but since the DeoS suspect changed nothing I don’t think that’d make much sense, and Dragapult and Roaring Moon both had over 3 on the last survey so I think before doing another survey, one of these should be tested first and I think more people are interested in Moon (personally I wouldn’t even test Pult I’ve mellowed out towards it lately). Moon has the most potential to bring unique tools to team building while not being overwhelming.

 

[Comett7778]

i would like to suggest a retest of palafin.

I definitely agree with sentiment here. One thing I do want to add is how much more significantly Palafin wants all its coverage. On a bulk up set(which would be the most used if I had to guess) it would want Zen Headbut for pex, close combat for ferrothorn, gambit, ogerpon, and others, and then finally ice punch for Bolt. While it could run just cc and ice punch as coverage, losing to pex would be problematic especially when pex’s usage would most likely increase with a palafin suspect. And Palafin already has its two mandatory slots of jet punch and bulk up for its main set.

Another point is how it matches up into Zard-Y sun. Without being ran on a full rain team it’s pretty useless in that matchup, and even when it’s on one it wouldn’t be putting in as much work as Mega Swampert would be. Also having an actual psychic terrain mon in lele would be great for stopping jet punches. Especially if the said lele was scarf and could just fire off a psychic and ko or at least scare the Palafin out.

All this combined with Palafin no longer being able to Tera means it would probably be fine and at least worth a suspect. I do still think Moon should be suspected first, but would be more than happy with a Palafin suspect. Which ever gets higher on the next survey should probably be prioritized.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

So I've been playing a lot of Mega Gardevoir recently and I can say it's a pretty solid mega in some cases, it takes on Raging bolt, wrecks Sub bs with Hyper voice, Psyshock breaks pex, it has coverage in Tbolt, Focus Blast and Mfire, it's hard to switch in on Stab and live the Coverage that comes next. it can also become a big problem for stall if it decides to run Dkiss + Tunt + CM + Psyshock and with how it can play around with Trace to copy Regen, Pheal, Natural cure and Magic Bounce. How do Yall prefer playing mgarde?

 

[Patar136]

Short answer:

Long answer: Yes, Mega Gardevoir has got some cool power and good typing and it's even naturally faster than Tapu Lele. And it's cool design: I love cool design. But when you slot in Mega Gardevoir, that often means you don't get Tapu Lele. Having two Pokemon with the exact same typing on the same team is very hard to do a lot of the time. There is also the opportunity cost of not having Mega Charizard, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Swampert, Mega Scizor, Mega Lopunny etc. Using Mega Gardevoir means that you have to build teams where Mega Gardevoir is going to be better than the utility that Tapu Lele provides. Which is a tough sell.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Short answer:

Long answer: Yes, Mega Gardevoir has got some cool power and good typing and it's even naturally faster than Tapu Lele. And it's cool design: I love cool design. But when you slot in Mega Gardevoir, that often means you don't get Tapu Lele. Having two Pokemon with the exact same typing on the same team is very hard to do a lot of the time. There is also the opportunity cost of not having Mega Charizard, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Swampert, Mega Scizor, Mega Lopunny etc. Using Mega Gardevoir means that you have to build teams where Mega Gardevoir is going to be better than the utility that Tapu Lele provides. Which is a tough sell.

The Advantage is having a Breaker with nearly no switchins, that can win the Zardy 1v1, and can more efficiently run Stallbreaking sets.

 

[Dahness]

The Advantage is having a Breaker with nearly no switchins, that can win the Zardy 1v1, and can more efficiently run Stallbreaking sets.

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Sun: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

They are almost the same mon, only lele doesn't require you to have an empty item slot and has an ability that can be useful for your teammates too.

 

[Sami]

252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

To be fair literally anything kills Mega Charizard Y after Stealth Rock; 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. And they have to speed-tie, so this is a really bad Mega Charizard Y answer both defensively and offensively, especially when Sun Teams already have good hazard control with Great Tusk and Terapagos, and Kingambit can come into Psyshock from Gardevoir anyways.

 

[Comett7778]

The Advantage is having a Breaker with nearly no switchins

I guess it has no switch ins? Specially defensive moltres immediately comes to mind as one. Here’s the thing, why not use Zard-Y over mega gard? It has a couple more switch ins, but provides support to its team in the form of sun. Using Zard-Y also frees you up to lele which is just a better mega gard. It can hold an item leading to more possible sets, and has psychic terrain to give team support and to boost itself.

that can win the Zardy 1v1

Yes but no. It speed ties meaning 50% of the time it loses and even then with stealth rock chip Zard-Y has a chance to ohko and any more chip and it’s a clean ohko.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega in Sun: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It’s okay in a pinch but should not be your team’s sole answer.

 

[Dahness]

To be fair literally anything kills Mega Charizard Y after Stealth Rock; 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. And they have to speed-tie, so this is a really bad Mega Charizard Y answer both defensively and offensively, especially when Sun Teams already have good hazard control with Great Tusk and Terapagos, and Kingambit can come into Psyshock from Gardevoir anyways.

im an idiot and copied the wrong calc, i meant to copy this calc 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega in Sun: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock