Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

I don’t like Espathra at all. It’s an annoying win condition that shouldn’t have to be accounted for. It so restrictive to have to run Kingmabit or Mega Tyranitar on every team. To have to run a bulky dark type just so that Espathra doesn’t destroy your team.

It’s an unhealthy presence that doesn’t add anything positive and instead adds a lot of negatives. Too many otherwise excellent teams are ruined by Espathra’s presence. So hard no from me.
 
Espathra should not be unbanned. Would it be fine? Probably. Would it be broken? Probably not. Would it bring anything good to the tier? No. It would just be the king of all matchup fish cheese mon. It would force you to run either Kingambit or Mega T-Tar to switch into the stored power and then pursuit trap it. It’s in my opinion by far the worst of the possible unban options. I’d much rather have something like Annihilape(which I also think should probably stay banned), be suspected because at least it wouldn’t be as matchup fishy and force one of two mons to be used to deal with it.
 
Replying to everyone talking about Esparthra and saying that it shouldn’t be allowed. From what I gather from the majority of discussion surrounding this Pokemon is that it is not outright broken but unhealthy and restricting in terms of building, requiring you to run dark types on every teaaaaaaam? That is already the case. And let us not pretend or to those of you who are uninformed, Esparthra is not slotting on Balance as a breaker with specs Lumina Crash or some type of goofy semi-stall sweeper. This shit is certified offense cheese and it already matches up poorly into the meta. You don’t even need dark to handle this Pokemon, since it cannot tera, it is stuck on niche teams that provide unique setup opportunities like screens and there are more checks than simply “dark types”. I am baffled that the quality of discussion has reached such a low bar, even with all of my comments on Lugia and other goofy post the average posts in here are just masterclass bullshit artists who do write first, think later. Ferrothorn would also be a fine check, Heatran if you are willing to deviate from the recommended sets, mega scizor, Melmetal. Realistically every team has a Dark Type and a Steel Type so building would probably not change much with this in the tier. Screens is and will remain gimmicky if this drops. From where I stand there doesn’t need to be reason to drop Pokémon if their “brokenness” is not controversial. This is not the case already, it is not like as if in every tier or especially in ND where every Pokémon serves a specific purpose to benefit the overall health of the tier.
 
Some thoughts as a forum lurker:

If it really is broken, then people will vote to ban it. It seems odd to keep something like Esparthra banned considering the many natural counterplay found on teams on all playstyles. In fact, in most cases it feels like it would be a liability, or require super specific positioning for a win.

Also, regarding the argument "it doesn't add anything to the tier", can you not argue that about most pokemon?

Now, there are other unban targets that would definitely "contribute" more to the tier, so I don't think Esparthra should be priority #1. However, I also think the pushback on it is a bit unjustified.
 
Also, regarding the argument "it doesn't add anything to the tier", can you not argue that about most pokemon?
I appreciate that you bring this up because I want to address it. Pokemon can bring good things to the tier even if they also potentially bring bad things.

Take Kingambit. Not only does Kingambit provide a great check to many dangerous sweepers in the late game for balance teams to fight back but it also provides the invaluable support of pursuit to deal with powerful ghost types, from juggernaughts Dragapult and Gholdengo to lessar but still good Aegislash, Pechurant and Blacephalon among others. This is a positive addition.

Look at Spectrier. This is an obvious negative addition. A stupidly powerful set up sweeper and cleaner that greatly limits the effectiveness of Pokemon and makes the metagame very volatile and restrictive. It makes so many Pokemon liabilities and makes certain teams impossible to run without severely crippling yourself. Bad idea.

Look at Baxcalibur, which is a mix of both. It actually does some nice things in buffing snow teams with an excellent abuser and can also defeat dangerous archetypes with its great set up options. However, it's negatives are rather pronounced and it would probably be too overwhelming, outweighing the positives.

There is a balance to be had between whether something provides good traits for a tier or negative cons.
 
If it really is broken, then people will vote to ban it
I get the mentality, but that doesn’t mean it should be suspected. It would still be a waste of time to do it. There’s a reason Sneasler won’t be suspected. It’s not the most broken thing ever, and there could maybe be a world where it doesn’t end up broken. But it would be a waste of people time, especially when there are other better options like Palafin or Roaring Moon.

Pokemon can bring good things to the tier even if they also potentially bring bad things.
I just wanna say how much I agree with this. Too often do people think of a Pokémon as healthy or unhealthy and not realize that different aspects of it are. For instance as a pivot/supporting mon Walking Wake are healthy, but offensive sets on Sun are overbearing and unhealthy.
 
I get the mentality, but that doesn’t mean it should be suspected. It would still be a waste of time to do it. There’s a reason Sneasler won’t be suspected. It’s not the most broken thing ever, and there could maybe be a world where it doesn’t end up broken. But it would be a waste of people time, especially when there are other better options like Palafin or Roaring Moon.

Sure, we can get the more pressing suspects out of the way but keeping something that isn't broken in Ubers is completely unjustified. (Free my man Deoxys Speed, he did nothing wrong and I will die by this statement.) We can always suspect stuff like Espathra later on, when all the popular picks like Moon and Palafin have finished their suspect tests.

Also Sneasler is like, 100% broken. Dire Claw is the embodiment of everything you hate about Pokemon, and Sneasler itself is basically Hawlucha EX.
 
While palafin and roaring moon are good suspect candidates, I think its probably time to consider freeing espathra.


With gambit omnipresent and AV melm back in full force and no tera to abuse, as annoying as espathra would be it would definitely run into way more issues with the loss of tera and would be much harder to matchup fish with.


Yes it would still be annoying with mindgames, but honestly it feels like it might not even be that good if it gets dropped down.

Honestly I think espathra should be next regardless of how annoying it is because it may not even be that good in this meta and its the least broken thing that could be dropped right now, and to be honest we maybe should have freed it with the rest of the tera abusers who got freed
not without, at minimum, a sleep ban. hypnosis lets espathra pull the same flavor of stupid shit that darkrai was doing in vanilla pre-sleep-ban ou, with a lovely* stored-power garnish. even in the absence of hypnosis, espathra is still a dumb no-skill mon with a way-too-good matchup spread. i wouldn't even consider dropping the thing unless sleep and stored power both go, and i don't think stored power is really an issue right now so i doubt that's happening anytime soon

*not actually that lovely
 
Mega gardevoir is not a worse Lele. They Have different tools, Lele having Psuchic surge, garde having will-o-wisp, encore, And other utility. Garde's fairy STAB hits harder, And does not cripple your own team's kingambit by existing. It has nearly no switch especially with Stealth Rock support, being AV crown, Who has bo recovery, Pink blob chansey And blissey, And AV melm, Who has no recovery. Basically Garde Loves Spikes Waterpon Who prevents Mola Flip turns
Mega Gallade on The other hand is a Mega that forces Mega TTar out, who can knock The switchins It has, Has encore and Will-o to beat Msciz and kingambit, can stone edge, taxel and knock to beat would-be Counters, is immune to flinch AND INTIMIDATE, So It doesnt get switched on by Lando, and Sub Drain Punch SD Koff is an Unique way of Bullying slow teams, tho SD taunt is also up There. it's faster and Bulkier than mmedi, and ir has SD
 
Mega gardevoir is not a worse Lele. They Have different tools, Lele having Psuchic surge, garde having will-o-wisp, encore, And other utility. Garde's fairy STAB hits harder, And does not cripple your own team's kingambit by existing. It has nearly no switch especially with Stealth Rock support, being AV crown, Who has bo recovery, Pink blob chansey And blissey, And AV melm, Who has no recovery. Basically Garde Loves Spikes Waterpon Who prevents Mola Flip turns
Mega Gallade on The other hand is a Mega that forces Mega TTar out, who can knock The switchins It has, Has encore and Will-o to beat Msciz and kingambit, can stone edge, taxel and knock to beat would-be Counters, is immune to flinch AND INTIMIDATE, So It doesnt get switched on by Lando, and Sub Drain Punch SD Koff is an Unique way of Bullying slow teams, tho SD taunt is also up There. it's faster and Bulkier than mmedi, and ir has SD
Okay but Tapu Lele doesn't take the Mega slot on your team and Tapu Lele is often stronger

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 231-273 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 211-250 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, to reiterate again, it doesn't take a Mega Slot

Mega Slot is a major opportunity cost. You can get a Mega Gardevoir that in many real scenarios performs better without using a Mega Slot. That's literally the end of its whole career tbh
 
While palafin and roaring moon are good suspect candidates, I think its probably time to consider freeing espathra.


With gambit omnipresent and AV melm back in full force and no tera to abuse, as annoying as espathra would be it would definitely run into way more issues with the loss of tera and would be much harder to matchup fish with.


Yes it would still be annoying with mindgames, but honestly it feels like it might not even be that good if it gets dropped down.

Honestly I think espathra should be next regardless of how annoying it is because it may not even be that good in this meta and its the least broken thing that could be dropped right now, and to be honest we maybe should have freed it with the rest of the tera abusers who got freed
Dear BolTingBlazie and EVERYONE who think Espathra should be suspected,

tenor.gif

Sincerely,

:Zamazenta: Vlarcheops :Zamazenta:

Even with the unban of Kingambit AND the ban of Terastallization, Espathra is STILL too much for the tier to handle!

To cut into the chase: it has and always will have the combination of Speed Boost + Calm Mind + Stored Power Set. Espathra has Speed Boost to be faster each round, Calm Mind to boost its special attack and defense AND Stored Power, a STAB mosterous move that starts off weak, then becomes unwallable for each boost Espathra gets (Speed Boost + Calm Mind). Even when you HAVE a dark type Pókemon, you HAVE to keep it alive in order to check/kill it. Even if you have a Dark Type that switches into Espathra easily, it has its Fighting and/or Fairy type teammates that can resist and (threaten) kill them. If you lost your Dark type, then it’s GG! Get ready to be swept by Espathra! Oh, I forgot, Espathra has DAZZLING GLEAM, meaning it can still threaten Datk types. And again, it'll be a NIGHTMARE on Hyper Offence because Screens and Psychic Surge (that busts its STAB Stored Power EVEN further!)

Plus, like Patar136 said, if we were to unban it, it would bring nothing but annoyance and suffering, which is something we really don’t want in the tier! Ever latest unban, while arguably controversial, do/can make sense. For example: Kingambit DOES offer to knock down both Gholdengo and Dragapult a peg, same with Zamazenta putting Kingambit down a peg. Dragapult and maybe Gholdengo can manage to make Zamazenta mangeable. Unbanning Espathra? Are you asking to make this metagame a nightmare? Are you asking to add an annoying Pókemon which infuriates the players due to its stupid strat?!

Not to mention it scored low on the survey (It scored 2.80! Maybe not THAT low, but low chances of a suspect.), so I wouldn’t get my hopes high if I were you.
 
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All of Palafin, Roaring Moon, and Espathra are more warping than people are letting on and if it were up to me I wouldn't even let their names be mentioned. For me they have to solve more issues than they cause for an overall net positive, otherwise it's just adding an additional constraint to the teambuilder. Alternatively they have to be so obscenely bad post-Tera that they don't seriously impact the health of the tier 99% of the time (re: Regieleki). You couldn't claim this for Deoxys-S, you absolutely can't for Palafin and Roaring Moon, maybe Espathra??



:palafin-hero:On Palafin:
The four most controversial threats at the moment are Mega Charizard-Y, Dragapult, Gholdengo, and Kingambit. Palafin doesn't hard check any of them. For Yard, it barely switches in and has to be Choice Band / Have Yard take Rocks chip and be in Hero form against a playstyle that features very threatening Palafin checks such as Raging Bolt, Slowbro, Kartana, Solar Beam clickers, etc and finds it easy to position these things against Palafin. Dragapult can punish Palafin coming in via Z-moves, Specs nuking it, or it being Wisped and crippled while Palafin has to safely come in and not die after scouting against Wisp and kill with Banded coverage (Throat Chop / Ice Punch). Gholdengo is checked offensively by Choice Band, Bulk Up just loses unless the Ghold player is throwing the game. Kingambit is a tossup since you're forced to run the same Sucker Punch mind games that plague the rest of the tier if you're not Sub Bulk Up.

It checks nothing controversial, instead it can abuse defensive staples fairly hard. Alomomola and Toxapex absolutely stink into Bulk Up variants, while Banded Palafin will just Flip Turn out or deal obscene damage under Rain if they're in the sixty percent or less range. Great Tusk, Gliscor, Landorus-T are all slower and get turned into fodder for both variants, making it a detriment to perform standard utility jobs without being punished for it. Ferrothorn, Zapdos, and Zamazenta aren't "great" answers either. Ferro constantly has to play prediction games against Choice Band for fear of Close Combat and it doesn't win against Bulk Up variants, Zapdos doesn't win against Choice Band because it hits too hard, Zamazenta requires fairly pristine conditions to check Bulk Up and it can't switch into Choice Band either. Offensive staples like Tapu Koko, Iron Valiant, Mega Lopunny are also very tossup since Choice Band will deal heavy damage via Jet Punch. They can also just lose if Bulk Up is boosted.

As we've established Dragapult checks it, as does Ogerpon-W and Raging Bolt consistently. These seem to be the only common ways of dealing with it consistently unless you willingly move to less than great options like Kartana, Rillaboom, Mega Venusaur, etc. Tapu Lele can beat Bulk Up sets I think since it runs Jet Punch + Drain Punch only iirc but its inability to switch into Choice Band whatsoever is a major detriment. I rate things like Rotom-Wash and Mega Latias high but there isn't a great consensus on if these guys are actually good picks to be running in general. Wouldn't want them forced on for Palafin specifically.

Is Palafin's presence a worthwhile investment long term?



:Roaring Moon:On Roaring Moon:
A more favorable outcome in terms of benefits: It's a fairly ok switch in to Yard (in the same vein as Offensive Garchomp) and can capitalize off of the opponent's Sun with Protosynthesis. Nice offensive check to Gholdengo as well although nothing stops the Ghold player from switching out depending on the composition, more case-by-case dependent. Same goes for Kingambit but worse so since it requires Earthquake to beat it and you can't be too low on HP. It does not consistently check Dragapult at all since Pult is faster and outpaces Choice Scarf sets after a single Dragon Dance boost.

Roaring Moon simultaneously checks Yard and is one of its best partners, akin to Raging Bolt, so it ultimately perpetuates Sun's impact on the metagame and makes the playstyle harder to respond to. I also concur with Slopcat's take that Roaring Moon would be a frustrating force on Hyper Offense teams since Dragonium Z + Earthquake still mauls a large portion of the metagame. Zamazenta, Alomomola, Lando-T, Great Tusk aren't real checks because of this. Either is Heatran or Toxapex. Ferrothorn can't really win unless it runs Gyro Ball or Body Press since Taunt will shut it down. Offensively Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Mega Diancie all can't work as checks due to Earthquake or Knock Off hitting too hard in Lele's case. Urshifu-RS and Mega Lopunny unfortunately have Lose to Dragon Dance Syndrome as well.

As for what actually checks this, I would say it's only a select group of Fairy and Steel-types + Weavile. Iron Valiant and Clefable are undoubtedly strong checks to Roaring Moon provided it doesn't run Iron Head to shore up this weakness, with this in mind nicher options such as Enamorus and Tapu Fini work nicely to check it as well. Mega Scizor and Melmetal can also shrug off Earthquake and take it out with U-Turn/Close Combat and Double Iron Bash respectively, while the aforementioned Ferrothorn from the second paragraph can again win if its Gyro Ball or Body Press (or if Roaring Moon isn't Taunt/Sub). Weavile can work as an emergency revenge killer but its not something you can use to switch into Roaring Moon obviously.

In my eyes this is more acceptable than Palafin but still seems risky to free.



:Espathra:On Espathra:
It doesn't check any of the controversial threats really. Granted you can cheese your way through Yard, Pult, and Ghold given enough boosts but that's not consistent whatsoever. So when people say it provides nothing to the meta on this point they are not just saying it without basis.

We have five good Dark-types in this metagame: Mega Tyranitar, Weavile, Kingambit, Samurott-Hisui, and Ting-Lu. Of those five, Espathra can overpower two of them "naturally": Weavile and Samurott-Hisui. So that is a pretty large part of the theoretical pool of checks removed. Mega Tyranitar and Ting-Lu are things that work but they can technically fold to Z-Espathra or get cheesed by Hypnosis variants. This leaves only Kingambit for right now as the sole consistent Dark-type check. Steel-types such as Iron Crown, Heatran, Treads, and Kartana don't win if it's boosted too much and it can even use the first three as setup opportunities. To anything that doesn't resist Espathra, they just don't win consistently ever. Everything has scenario specific conditions at that point.

Hope is not all lost however. The post-Tera scene does make things such as Melmetal (as said above), Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor better at checking Espathra. Outside of that the pool of consistent checks seem kinda barren?? Only other things I'm seeing are like Victini and Mega Mawile? Idk lol I wrote this post thinking it would have more checks so if people could point some out that aren't like shitters then that would be cool. Otherwise, I don't think being pressured into running Kingambit for the millionth time or some select Steel-types to avoid being fished by Espathra is an indicator of a balanced pokemon. If it had more checks then yes my tune would change obviously but you can't just slap Kingambit on every team ever and call Espathra balanced.

I don't think I would even try with Espathra, it seems like an annoying matchup fish (such as Polteagiest) at best and very uncompetitive at worst. There is no scenario where it's ever in between.
 
Mega gardevoir is not a worse Lele. They Have different tools, Lele having Psuchic surge, garde having will-o-wisp, encore, And other utility. Garde's fairy STAB hits harder, And does not cripple your own team's kingambit by existing. It has nearly no switch especially with Stealth Rock support, being AV crown, Who has bo recovery, Pink blob chansey And blissey, And AV melm, Who has no recovery. Basically Garde Loves Spikes Waterpon Who prevents Mola Flip turns
Mega Gallade on The other hand is a Mega that forces Mega TTar out, who can knock The switchins It has, Has encore and Will-o to beat Msciz and kingambit, can stone edge, taxel and knock to beat would-be Counters, is immune to flinch AND INTIMIDATE, So It doesnt get switched on by Lando, and Sub Drain Punch SD Koff is an Unique way of Bullying slow teams, tho SD taunt is also up There. it's faster and Bulkier than mmedi, and ir has SD
it was going great until u mentioned mgallade bruh
Okay but Tapu Lele doesn't take the Mega slot on your team and Tapu Lele is often stronger

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 231-273 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 211-250 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, to reiterate again, it doesn't take a Mega Slot

Mega Slot is a major opportunity cost. You can get a Mega Gardevoir that in many real scenarios performs better without using a Mega Slot. That's literally the end of its whole career tbh
thats only considering psychic terrain for lele, comparing mgarde's psychic vs lele psychic is a bit unfair unless u also wanna compare garde's hyper voice vs lele moonblast

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 187-222 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 255-300 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Mega gardevoir is not a worse Lele.
For the most part it is. Gard has a slightly more speed and a good chunk more special attack sure. But losing out in an item slot, and using a team’s mega slot all really hurt it. The loss of an item slot hurts the most because it locks Gard into a two or so actually viable sets.
Lele having Psuchic surge, garde having will-o-wisp, encore, And other utility. Garde's fairy STAB hits harder,
I have never in my life seen a Gard run wisp and have probably seen encore but don’t remember it. They run almost the same set every time, it’s just is it calm mind or not. And that utility is dwarfed by psychic terrain. Preventing priority can allow for cleaner kills on mons like Raging Bolt, Kingambit, and Rillaboom. On the topic of attacking options, sure Gard’s fairy stab hits harder but that’s ignoring how Lele’s psychic type attacks hit like a truck. And Lele can be boosted by specs, or life orb unlike Gard’s pixilate boosted hyper voice. Also notice how I said psychic type attacks. Plural. This includes mainly psychic, psyshock, and future sight. Being able to boost more than one viable move is another point in Leles favor. Also yes gambit and mega t-tar do exist. Hence why choice Lele have seen a decrease in usage in favor of other items like heavy duty boots or fightium z.
It has nearly no switch especially with Stealth Rock support,
Moltres, Av crown, blissey, ghold, lele(?), slow bro, slowking, and mega mawile. Sure these switches may only work once, but they only need to so you can get more chip on the gard and then outspeed it late game. Yet again gard would really like an item here like the scarf Lele could use.

I cannot stress enough how valuable an item slot is. It can change the way a mon plays and force you opponent to play more carefully. For instance if my lopunny got a kill and their Lele switches in I have to act like it’s scarf 9/10 when it could be boots, specs, or Fightium Z. It allows for more versatility on a mon and enables more ways to use it. Another problem is the fact gard takes a mega slot. I’m assuming you would use gard on some kind of balance because idk why it would be on stall or ho. For the most part, balance wants other megas like, T-Tar, Zard-Y, Diancie, or Lopunny. Losing out on these mons for a Lele with better stats and not item isn’t usually worth it.

I would like to clarify Mega Gard isn’t atrocious. It’s no Mega Abomasnow. It isn’t an active detriment to your team to run and I’m sure there are teams that would rather have a Mega Gard than a Lele. It’s just 9/10 Lele is strictly better.
 
All of Palafin, Roaring Moon, and Espathra are more warping than people are letting on and if it were up to me I wouldn't even let their names be mentioned. For me they have to solve more issues than they cause for an overall net positive, otherwise it's just adding an additional constraint to the teambuilder. Alternatively they have to be so obscenely bad post-Tera that they don't seriously impact the health of the tier 99% of the time (re: Regieleki). You couldn't claim this for Deoxys-S, you absolutely can't for Palafin and Roaring Moon, maybe Espathra??



:palafin-hero:On Palafin:
The four most controversial threats at the moment are Mega Charizard-Y, Dragapult, Gholdengo, and Kingambit. Palafin doesn't hard check any of them. For Yard, it barely switches in and has to be Choice Band / Have Yard take Rocks chip and be in Hero form against a playstyle that features very threatening Palafin checks such as Raging Bolt, Slowbro, Kartana, Solar Beam clickers, etc and finds it easy to position these things against Palafin. Dragapult can punish Palafin coming in via Z-moves, Specs nuking it, or it being Wisped and crippled while Palafin has to safely come in and not die after scouting against Wisp and kill with Banded coverage (Throat Chop / Ice Punch). Gholdengo is checked offensively by Choice Band, Bulk Up just loses unless the Ghold player is throwing the game. Kingambit is a tossup since you're forced to run the same Sucker Punch mind games that plague the rest of the tier if you're not Sub Bulk Up.

It checks nothing controversial, instead it can abuse defensive staples fairly hard. Alomomola and Toxapex absolutely stink into Bulk Up variants, while Banded Palafin will just Flip Turn out or deal obscene damage under Rain if they're in the sixty percent or less range. Great Tusk, Gliscor, Landorus-T are all slower and get turned into fodder for both variants, making it a detriment to perform standard utility jobs without being punished for it. Ferrothorn, Zapdos, and Zamazenta aren't "great" answers either. Ferro constantly has to play prediction games against Choice Band for fear of Close Combat and it doesn't win against Bulk Up variants, Zapdos doesn't win against Choice Band because it hits too hard, Zamazenta requires fairly pristine conditions to check Bulk Up and it can't switch into Choice Band either. Offensive staples like Tapu Koko, Iron Valiant, Mega Lopunny are also very tossup since Choice Band will deal heavy damage via Jet Punch. They can also just lose if Bulk Up is boosted.

As we've established Dragapult checks it, as does Ogerpon-W and Raging Bolt consistently. These seem to be the only common ways of dealing with it consistently unless you willingly move to less than great options like Kartana, Rillaboom, Mega Venusaur, etc. Tapu Lele can beat Bulk Up sets I think since it runs Jet Punch + Drain Punch only iirc but its inability to switch into Choice Band whatsoever is a major detriment. I rate things like Rotom-Wash and Mega Latias high but there isn't a great consensus on if these guys are actually good picks to be running in general. Wouldn't want them forced on for Palafin specifically.

Is Palafin's presence a worthwhile investment long term?



:Roaring Moon:On Roaring Moon:
A more favorable outcome in terms of benefits: It's a fairly ok switch in to Yard (in the same vein as Offensive Garchomp) and can capitalize off of the opponent's Sun with Protosynthesis. Nice offensive check to Gholdengo as well although nothing stops the Ghold player from switching out depending on the composition, more case-by-case dependent. Same goes for Kingambit but worse so since it requires Earthquake to beat it and you can't be too low on HP. It does not consistently check Dragapult at all since Pult is faster and outpaces Choice Scarf sets after a single Dragon Dance boost.

Roaring Moon simultaneously checks Yard and is one of its best partners, akin to Raging Bolt, so it ultimately perpetuates Sun's impact on the metagame and makes the playstyle harder to respond to. I also concur with Slopcat's take that Roaring Moon would be a frustrating force on Hyper Offense teams since Dragonium Z + Earthquake still mauls a large portion of the metagame. Zamazenta, Alomomola, Lando-T, Great Tusk aren't real checks because of this. Either is Heatran or Toxapex. Ferrothorn can't really win unless it runs Gyro Ball or Body Press since Taunt will shut it down. Offensively Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Mega Diancie all can't work as checks due to Earthquake or Knock Off hitting too hard in Lele's case. Urshifu-RS and Mega Lopunny unfortunately have Lose to Dragon Dance Syndrome as well.

As for what actually checks this, I would say it's only a select group of Fairy and Steel-types + Weavile. Iron Valiant and Clefable are undoubtedly strong checks to Roaring Moon provided it doesn't run Iron Head to shore up this weakness, with this in mind nicher options such as Enamorus and Tapu Fini work nicely to check it as well. Mega Scizor and Melmetal can also shrug off Earthquake and take it out with U-Turn/Close Combat and Double Iron Bash respectively, while the aforementioned Ferrothorn from the second paragraph can again win if its Gyro Ball or Body Press (or if Roaring Moon isn't Taunt/Sub). Weavile can work as an emergency revenge killer but its not something you can use to switch into Roaring Moon obviously.

In my eyes this is more acceptable than Palafin but still seems risky to free.



:Espathra:On Espathra:
It doesn't check any of the controversial threats really. Granted you can cheese your way through Yard, Pult, and Ghold given enough boosts but that's not consistent whatsoever. So when people say it provides nothing to the meta on this point they are not just saying it without basis.

We have five good Dark-types in this metagame: Mega Tyranitar, Weavile, Kingambit, Samurott-Hisui, and Ting-Lu. Of those five, Espathra can overpower two of them "naturally": Weavile and Samurott-Hisui. So that is a pretty large part of the theoretical pool of checks removed. Mega Tyranitar and Ting-Lu are things that work but they can technically fold to Z-Espathra or get cheesed by Hypnosis variants. This leaves only Kingambit for right now as the sole consistent Dark-type check. Steel-types such as Iron Crown, Heatran, Treads, and Kartana don't win if it's boosted too much and it can even use the first three as setup opportunities. To anything that doesn't resist Espathra, they just don't win consistently ever. Everything has scenario specific conditions at that point.

Hope is not all lost however. The post-Tera scene does make things such as Melmetal (as said above), Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor better at checking Espathra. Outside of that the pool of consistent checks seem kinda barren?? Only other things I'm seeing are like Victini and Mega Mawile? Idk lol I wrote this post thinking it would have more checks so if people could point some out that aren't like shitters then that would be cool. Otherwise, I don't think being pressured into running Kingambit for the millionth time or some select Steel-types to avoid being fished by Espathra is an indicator of a balanced pokemon. If it had more checks then yes my tune would change obviously but you can't just slap Kingambit on every team ever and call Espathra balanced.

I don't think I would even try with Espathra, it seems like an annoying matchup fish (such as Polteagiest) at best and very uncompetitive at worst. There is no scenario where it's ever in between.
Heavily agree with this, always felt like Roaring Moon has a bit of 4mss, it also cannot run all the moves it needs for all the mons that can check/wall it. The weakness to stuff like Fini and steels is taken care of by Yard.Honestly, what i fear about moon the most is z-moves.I don't wanna have another Gouging Fire in the tier.As for the other 2, we legit don't need new stuff to worry about in the teambuilder, that's all there is to it imo
 
hmm, a pokemon ive always wanted to build with is crawdaunt. before u come a raise ur pitchforks at me, im not trying to say crawdaunt is viable or anything, im just saying it might be worth a build (at least more than corsola and orthworm right?).

Whats its niche?
crawdaunt acts as a crazy breaker and even stallkiller for teams with its high attack stat coupled with adaptability, as well as a solid revenge killer against pokemon such as lopunny, koko, ival, and even chipped kingambits. speaking of gambit, it acts as a decent check to it with higher base speed and serviceable def, just hope the gambit isnt running lowkick or anything. it also breaks holes in teams with knock, as the usual knock absorbers fear stab crabhammer and/or straight gets 2hkod by knock.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 116-138 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 141-166 (41.3 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

yea it kinda spams knock and the occasional aqua jet sometimes, also sd sets (ik calcs arent everything but they do help)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 268-317 (95.3 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

its a cool mon

Why use it over other dark types such as Samurott-Hisui or Kingambit?
crawdaddy and the fact it outspeeds gambit and out damages hsam ig? i dunno, use hsam if u want, spikes are good.

anyways, to end off, crawdaunt was a relavant mon in gen 8 nd, so id like to see how it fairs today and i wanna see people discuss it, whether they hate the idea or not
 
Mega gardevoir is not a worse Lele. They Have different tools, Lele having Psuchic surge, garde having will-o-wisp, encore, And other utility. Garde's fairy STAB hits harder, And does not cripple your own team's kingambit by existing. It has nearly no switch especially with Stealth Rock support, being AV crown, Who has bo recovery, Pink blob chansey And blissey, And AV melm, Who has no recovery. Basically Garde Loves Spikes Waterpon Who prevents Mola Flip turns
Mega Gallade on The other hand is a Mega that forces Mega TTar out, who can knock The switchins It has, Has encore and Will-o to beat Msciz and kingambit, can stone edge, taxel and knock to beat would-be Counters, is immune to flinch AND INTIMIDATE, So It doesnt get switched on by Lando, and Sub Drain Punch SD Koff is an Unique way of Bullying slow teams, tho SD taunt is also up There. it's faster and Bulkier than mmedi, and ir has SD
oh my god bro just stop trying to be special and use the shit everyone else is using. you're not omari p
hmm, a pokemon ive always wanted to build with is crawdaunt. before u come a raise ur pitchforks at me, im not trying to say crawdaunt is viable or anything, im just saying it might be worth a build (at least more than corsola and orthworm right?).

Whats its niche?
crawdaunt acts as a crazy breaker and even stallkiller for teams with its high attack stat coupled with adaptability, as well as a solid revenge killer against pokemon such as lopunny, koko, ival, and even chipped kingambits. speaking of gambit, it acts as a decent check to it with higher base speed and serviceable def, just hope the gambit isnt running lowkick or anything. it also breaks holes in teams with knock, as the usual knock absorbers fear stab crabhammer and/or straight gets 2hkod by knock.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 116-138 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 141-166 (41.3 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

yea it kinda spams knock and the occasional aqua jet sometimes, also sd sets (ik calcs arent everything but they do help)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 268-317 (95.3 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

its a cool mon

Why use it over other dark types such as Samurott-Hisui or Kingambit?
crawdaddy and the fact it outspeeds gambit and out damages hsam ig? i dunno, use hsam if u want, spikes are good.

anyways, to end off, crawdaunt was a relavant mon in gen 8 nd, so id like to see how it fairs today and i wanna see people discuss it, whether they hate the idea or not
crawdaunt does seem interesting but i don't think it does a good enough job at splitting the difference between hamurott and gambit. both of those dropping in the same generation was kind of a death knell for the poor crab. if you want a dark-type that deals a fuckton of damage and can knock and sucker and pursuit, obviously you're gonna go for gambit, which is way fatter. but i do think there might be a teeny weeny niche for it, maybe, on a team that really likes gambit-esque damage output but wants it more immediately instead of having to wait for the 1.5x boosts until the end of the match. aqua jet's also nice but i think shifu fills the big bad aqua jet breaker role pretty well. but honestly i'd just rather use hamurott, gambit, or both at once, which can just kinda cover almost every use case for crawdaunt
 
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If I'm using Crawdaunt it's gonna be on Trick Room where I can just abuse its stupid levels of power to the fullest with Choice Band Crabhammer + Knock Off destroying things, maybe Life Orb if I wanna go with Swords Dance to nuke something. Plus, Aqua Jet does mean you can have a good emergency button when trick room is inactive.

Still gimmicky, but I've tried it every so often to decent results.
 
Moltres, Av crown, blissey, ghold, lele(?), slow bro, slowking, and mega mawile
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Moltres: 169-201 (44 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO -- this One is fair, but you can kinda run Tbolt
AV crown has no recovery and is weak to hazards.
Ghold? like, Ghold?
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 212-250 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Gholdengo: 192-226 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowbro: 252-297 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Slowking-Galar: 180-213 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock assumed u meant Galarian because Base is ass
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 204-242 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

anyways I think you have to review what a switch-in is, especially since all these mons are slower than Garde. Yea Mgarde can and maybe even should run Wisp on certain teams because it can bait in lot of Phys attackers and Wow on the switch.
oh my god bro just stop trying to be special and use the shit everyone else is using. you're not omari p
?
crawdaunt does seem interesting
????
 
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anyways I think you have to review what a switch-in is, especially since all these mons are slower than Garde. Yea Mgarde can and maybe even should run Wisp on certain teams because it can bait in lot of Phys attackers and Wow on the switch.
Yeah Lele and Ghold were probably a stretch but I figure if you were in a pinch It could work. But Av Crown is a real mon. It isn’t “weak to hazards” it simply takes damage from them, which is why spinners and defoggers exist. And you don’t need recovery’s when you take so little from special hits. Also there are still the other checks I listed which are all fairly common and most have recover to stop from being worn down easily.

And yet again you are limited to a few sets. Meanwhile Lele could be scarf, specs, Fightium Z, or boots and all of these sets can play very different. This can create a mind game for you opponent on what set you are as you can usually rule out two at team preview. If you think a Lele is specs and it turns out to be scarfed that’s really bad.

And I sound like a broken record but you then have a free mega slot to use other better Megas like Zard-Y who does the same thing, while powering up mons like Tusk and Bolt. There is a reason why Mega Gard is Uu and Lele is Ou and as said I don’t doubt Gard is good but 9/10 times Lele is better. Also I’m not gonna continue with this cause we’re just gonna go round and round in circles and I don’t wanna clog the forums more that I already do.
 
mega gardevior was recently submitted to the lunatic’s workshop
it’s not a bad mon per se but damage output isnt entirely the reason why it’s not as good as other alternatives such as tapu lele

a. mgardevior’s bulk is horrid. it has very low hp accompanied with 65 def which makes it extremely prone to revenge killing from the likes of scarf urshifu or mlop, and also means you have to pivot it in most of the time. it rarely provides defensive utility to its team, because where you would want the occasional wisp or encore you’d rather have mfire or fblast.
b. continuing from the previous statement, mgarde has slight issues with its moveset. hvoice and psyshock is a given, but it prefers mystical fire to ohko ferro and hit ghold, focus blast to ohko mtar and hit heatran, encore or willo for utility. you really have to pick and choose for what you want
c. mgardevior often has to make reads to make progress. admit it, you are not going to click psyshock on that moltres every time, nor are you going to predict gholdengo to switch in and mystical fire. it wants to click that hyper voice but this current meta is chock full of fairy resists that make that difficult.
d. mgardevior doesnt really provide anything special(besides that wonderful design). it’s locked by a mega slot which makes it prone to hazards nor can it boost its damage or spe via items. why would i use mgarde over lele? offensive crown? mlatios? mdia?

it’s something that should be uniquely built around and understood the issues with its flaws, it’s not unviable by any means but juicing it up as you have been doing is a far stretch
 
psa: it's the item slot. it's 100% the item slot, always. megas live and die solely off of their ability to stand out without holding an item. their roles are not as flexible as regular mons, so they need to really be good at whatever it is they're doing and not have much competition for it. for example, yard makes its living by summoning sun to boost its stab to insane levels and also bolster the stats of two mons that synergize extremely well with it both offensively and defensively. mega diancie is good because it can dominate the hazard game with mbounce, fast spikes/rocks, and a good matchup against hamurott, while also serving as a potent breaker. mega lopunny is fast fast fast and has an unresisted stab combo. mega ttar is a powerful sand setter and pursuit trapper. mega scizor and pinsir have super strong priority and setup. mega gyarados is a setup sweeper that ignores unaware. mega mawile and medicham have obscene damage outputs and also priority. none of these things particularly require an item to distinguish themselves. what does mega gardevoir do to distinguish itself from similar mons that can hold items and are thus more flexible? not much, i'm afraid
 
Alright, let's ee: Zardy vs Garde:
Their speed is equal, a historical speed of 100. they both Nearly Always max it out, 99.999% of the time. What are each ones' disadvantages? Zardy is an obvious one; Stealth rock. it forces at least Two forms of hazard control, oftentimes Gtusk and pagos. its double weakness to rock also means that a considerable amount of Pokés will run Rock Coverage for it, and rock coverage, especially rock slide, is not particularly rare, if at all. Zardy also Needs Weather to fire off its best STAB, Weather Ball. Work up Sets can get past some counters but are far from common and it's generally a skillful management of Ttar or Rbolt that takes it down during a game. It has few switchins thanks to its fire Grass ground/Fighting Coverage, and fewer of those swithons fit on most teams.
Mgarde is very weak on the physical side, Making taking on Corv a Challenge. Bullet Punch Scizor and Sucker Punch Kingambit can Imediately KO/KO after 3 allies fainted, but the thunderclap MU is better. Mgarde Struggles to Kill Ferrothorn without boosts, tho ferrothorn cannot switch in on any of its move and survive the subsequent Mystical fire, even with no hazards on the field at all.

uu queen dragged through the mud for the crime of being outclassed by lele. shes not an ambitious girl, she just wants to singView attachment 706139
Boy Audino is on the side of the VR'd mon in this image it's a W
 
love this image but considering its the calc mons, whys iron boulder here? that mon does like 0 dmg in practice and in calcs i think (maud too, defensively and offensively)

also since after lack of tera barraskewda dropped off a bit, has anybody been experimenting with new rain mons? ive seen shifus and stuff but i havent heard anyone talking about the goat manaphy. its a stall/wallbreaker for rain, completely eviscerating fatter structures with its batshit damage output and inability to die by most chip. rainrest is a great combo for it and due to its good bulk, it can also trade out offensive pokemon vs offensive structures.

with its combo of surf + psychic/energyball its able to break through water resists, and even just kill tanky mons with tailglow boosted rain boosted surfs/waterium

+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex in Rain: 327-384 (107.9 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

this... this is a satifying calc (hydro vortex does more dmg than se psychics vs resisted targets)
 
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