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Lower Tiers RBY PU Hub
- Thread starter Volk
- Start date
I've decided to say more while I wait to learn how to do a suspect test in 2025 because they removed the old method wherein I could do them myself with ease. The RBY PU council is looking at suspecting Rapidash. I want to outline some stuff and open the discussion here for a few days while we get everything set for a potential suspect.
Why Rapidash?
Rapidash has a lot of things going for it in PU. STAB Fire Blast is ridiculous in NU and below both because its a 120 BP move and because of the burn chance, and in PU particularly there are only a few real Fire Blast switchins. Fire Spin is already a stupid move, and it's even stupider when used by a Pokemon that is faster than the entire tier. Rapidash's critical hit rate, while not exceptionally higher than other Pokemon, just adds slightly more annoying variance, as do Body Slam wars between two Rapidash, which is often one of the only ways to paralyze it aside from hoping for a Spin miss. The player that wins a Rapidash war may end up at a devastating advantage, particularly if their Rapidash escapes without paralysis. Ultimately, Rapidash introduces a lot of variance and potential to win games off of hitting 70% moves a couple of times.
Why not Fire Spin or Partial Trapping?
In the context of PU, partial trapping effectively does not exist beyond Rapidash. Dragonair is barely used and doesn't really use Wrap, Pinsir barely exists and has lots of issues (not least of which is being Fire-weak), Arbok is not used, etc. Banning Fire Spin to weaken Rapidash would be bad tiering, and I say that as a big partial trapping hater. If another partial trapping user was to become centralizing, I personally would be pushing for a partial trapping ban. ZU originally banned Arbok, not Wrap, and then chose to ban partial trapping when Dragonair dropped and added a second centralizing Wrap user to the tier - the same precedent applies here.
Arguments against banning Rapidash
Positioning against Rapidash does matter. Seaking, Magmar, Golduck, and Rapidash statistically will outlast Fire Spin and land hits against a Fire Spinning Rapidash, and Agility users can set up in advance of Rapidash entering to severely neuter its effectiveness, such as Pidgeot, Porygon, and Seaking. However, Rapidash can pivot out after Fire Spinning one of the more resistant targets and is difficult to pin down if you are not already ahead in the game. Thunder Wave users also threaten paralysis, which almost completely ruins Rapidash, but every Thunder Wave user also takes significant chip from Fire Spin, and most are extremely frail - Abra and Staryu cannot stand up to Rapidash, and Porygon notoriously needs to stay at full HP to avoid getting picked off by any random critical hit while setting up or healing. That said, a well-positioned team can make it difficult for Rapidash to get in, especially with liberal use of Agility, Substitute, and other tools that force Rapidash to get out or get lucky.
Tagging a bunch of people who would have reqs in a vote, council members, etc. to chime in - one of the losses of the new suspect system is that now there's not like, a dedicated suspect post to discuss on, so we do it here now I suppose:
Why Rapidash?
Rapidash has a lot of things going for it in PU. STAB Fire Blast is ridiculous in NU and below both because its a 120 BP move and because of the burn chance, and in PU particularly there are only a few real Fire Blast switchins. Fire Spin is already a stupid move, and it's even stupider when used by a Pokemon that is faster than the entire tier. Rapidash's critical hit rate, while not exceptionally higher than other Pokemon, just adds slightly more annoying variance, as do Body Slam wars between two Rapidash, which is often one of the only ways to paralyze it aside from hoping for a Spin miss. The player that wins a Rapidash war may end up at a devastating advantage, particularly if their Rapidash escapes without paralysis. Ultimately, Rapidash introduces a lot of variance and potential to win games off of hitting 70% moves a couple of times.
Why not Fire Spin or Partial Trapping?
In the context of PU, partial trapping effectively does not exist beyond Rapidash. Dragonair is barely used and doesn't really use Wrap, Pinsir barely exists and has lots of issues (not least of which is being Fire-weak), Arbok is not used, etc. Banning Fire Spin to weaken Rapidash would be bad tiering, and I say that as a big partial trapping hater. If another partial trapping user was to become centralizing, I personally would be pushing for a partial trapping ban. ZU originally banned Arbok, not Wrap, and then chose to ban partial trapping when Dragonair dropped and added a second centralizing Wrap user to the tier - the same precedent applies here.
Arguments against banning Rapidash
Positioning against Rapidash does matter. Seaking, Magmar, Golduck, and Rapidash statistically will outlast Fire Spin and land hits against a Fire Spinning Rapidash, and Agility users can set up in advance of Rapidash entering to severely neuter its effectiveness, such as Pidgeot, Porygon, and Seaking. However, Rapidash can pivot out after Fire Spinning one of the more resistant targets and is difficult to pin down if you are not already ahead in the game. Thunder Wave users also threaten paralysis, which almost completely ruins Rapidash, but every Thunder Wave user also takes significant chip from Fire Spin, and most are extremely frail - Abra and Staryu cannot stand up to Rapidash, and Porygon notoriously needs to stay at full HP to avoid getting picked off by any random critical hit while setting up or healing. That said, a well-positioned team can make it difficult for Rapidash to get in, especially with liberal use of Agility, Substitute, and other tools that force Rapidash to get out or get lucky.
Tagging a bunch of people who would have reqs in a vote, council members, etc. to chime in - one of the losses of the new suspect system is that now there's not like, a dedicated suspect post to discuss on, so we do it here now I suppose:
Lower Tiers Post in thread 'RBY PU Hub'
Only glanced at some of the games from the recent open since my last games were back in pubd. Doesn't seem like much has changed, and my stance from before is about the same when I previously did a recap above (for not just horse to go, maybe add Sand Attack but that's a tough sell). I don't think horse is this crazy behemoth some of the previous posts make it out to be but it has sort of a jack of all trades where it combines the annoying aspects of RBY (old gen crit, speed/crit rate, partial, paralysis via Slam, etc.) and packages it into one. The mirrors are also annoying because as Wanted said previously, lot of times you have to really commit to it for real progress making, which results in these similar sequences you see a lot in games, thus emphasizing that jack of all trade element horse has. I'd likely just vote to remove it Idk the logistics of when PU will get a tiering update based on VRs and such but worst case scenario if meta doesnt improve via horse and possible future boots at least it can be brought back down. Metas still playable just really dry due to the mandatory horse, duck meta you're forced into using.
One of the things I hate about Rapidash, being the tier’s fastest mon, is that it forces players in losing positions to spam fire spin on every mon until it’s in range of another attack from dash. Technically, as long as your Rapidash isn’t paralyzed, you can win from almost any position even if it’s unlikely (and you have enough PP). Obviously you’re going to go for it, and your opponent has to sit there and wait, switch around a few times for a few fire spin misses while the other player is just mashing spin because they’re obligated to play out a game they have a chance of winning. I feel terrible on the winning and losing sides of these interactions no matter how they play out.
This element isn’t totally related to dash’s brokenness, but mostly just makes me hate playing the tier. I don’t really think there’s a lot of skill expression in preserving your dash for this gameplan, because trapping can make it so anyone who’s lucky enough can pivot out safely after landing fire spin.
I would ban dash for this reason alone, but I think all of sabelette’s points also give strong reason to think dash is broken rather than just unfun. I feel like my teams have to pack at least 2 of golduck/seaking/porygon to feel like I’m able to switch into dash, since seaking and golduck can be muscled through by just 1 crit and a bit of extra damage (good thing Rapidash doesn’t have a way to deal free chip damage on command).
if we had (viable) waters that didn’t fold so easily to body slam, I’d be fine with dash staying, but as-is, golduck and seaking are too frail for the job.
This element isn’t totally related to dash’s brokenness, but mostly just makes me hate playing the tier. I don’t really think there’s a lot of skill expression in preserving your dash for this gameplan, because trapping can make it so anyone who’s lucky enough can pivot out safely after landing fire spin.
I would ban dash for this reason alone, but I think all of sabelette’s points also give strong reason to think dash is broken rather than just unfun. I feel like my teams have to pack at least 2 of golduck/seaking/porygon to feel like I’m able to switch into dash, since seaking and golduck can be muscled through by just 1 crit and a bit of extra damage (good thing Rapidash doesn’t have a way to deal free chip damage on command).
if we had (viable) waters that didn’t fold so easily to body slam, I’d be fine with dash staying, but as-is, golduck and seaking are too frail for the job.
Think most people agree with you. It's very hard for me to see any antiban argument as being in the best interest of RBY PU's health.
Just felt like I'd expand on this for the purposes of anyone wandering in or for someone who is(somehow) anti-ban. None of this is going to surprise anyone who has played RBY seriously though imo
PT is a mechanic with various levels of strength in RBY tiers, but usually some form of measurement has been taken to address its unhealthiest strategies(see the Agility + partial trapping move ban in UU and below, which notably affects would be trappers like Agility + Wrap Dragonite or Agility + Fire Spin Moltres). While it's true you could spread paralysis before then go for a PT move on your opponent(and that is a strong strategy), at least that requires you to dance around your opponent's team and get the necessary pre-conditions to win.
Let's keep in mind that Rapidash only has two things that ties with it: itself and Scyther. What that means is unless Rapidash is paralyzed, nothing else in the entire tier can outpace a Fire Spin click and has to hope for a miss to generate any momentum. And if they don't, they are passively being whittled down with each turn. As far as opposing Rapidash and Scyther go, neither are exactly thrilled by the prospect of coming in on literally ANYTHING Rapidash wants to click.
Scyther is obvious as to why you shouldn't switch it in, given Fire Blast has a 61.5% chance of OHKOing and Body Slam's 30% chance of para; the only way Scyther wants to interact with a Rapidash is if it's para'd and chipped so it can either Slash or Hyper Beam it for the kill. The more interesting thing to talk about is how Rapidash interacts with itself - or better yet, still doesn't want to. Body Slam should speak for itself here again with the 30% para chance, but you also don't want to switch into Fire Spin because on the turn you can't move, your opponent will go into one of their dash checks and keep the momentum on their side. To analogize this for modern players, this is basically like u-turning.
I don't want to gas up Rapidash to sound more insane than it is(though the core playerbase doesn't seem very happy for good reason); of course there are Pokemon that check Rapidash(though they are susceptible to para, burn, and being fire spin chipped themselves at Dash's whim, and that's before we mention that Golduck can easily end up just trading with itself to the point where even the winning Golduck can easily be revenged), and as mentioned above it's not like EVERY single Fire Spin is going to hit, meaning it can be punished harshly by one stray miss by being paralyzed, slammed with an SE hit, etc. But if that's the best argument possible then yikes it really needs to go. Could the tier survive if it stays? Sure, it's still playable and imo really fun, but the meta could be pushed forward without it and the insane momentum it generates. I would be open to seeing what happens if PT was banned, but since Rapidash is the subject considered for suspect then that is what we have to discuss. And looking at it with its full toolkit, it seems to be too much for PU right now.
Echoing Chungler, if we had some bulkier waters for Rapidash to contend with(like NU has on top with Kabu/Toise/Poliwrath etc to keep Moltres at bay), maybe there would be more to an anti-ban argument. But right now I think this horse is ready to retire.
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We are going ahead with a vote on Rapidash to be completed before the RBY PU Cup starting Sunday/Monday:
https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/122
Qualifications:
Played 3 matches and won at least 1 in PUBD II
Maris Bonibell
Sabelette
AM
DiannieRatson
Wanted in 49 States
RBY PU Spotlight finalists
nebi
acluh1
RBY PU Open III semifinalists
Sabelette
THE_CHUNGLER
Zpice
Toxin Boost
https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/122
Qualifications:
Played 3 matches and won at least 1 in PUBD II
Maris Bonibell
Sabelette
AM
DiannieRatson
Wanted in 49 States
RBY PU Spotlight finalists
nebi
acluh1
RBY PU Open III semifinalists
Sabelette
THE_CHUNGLER
Zpice
Toxin Boost
which then hurts Zu… ^^
Thoughts on a few mons (mostly speculative because I've only played like 5 friendlies of this tier lol).
I'm not gonna talk about every mon just the ones I want to talk about
Better
As I hinted 2 posts above Magmar is the new dominant fire. It doesn't seem as broken as Rapidash since it is outsped by ape and scyther and lacks fire spin, but you can never be too sure. I said the EXACT SAME THING about Rapidash after Arcanine rose and we saw how well that turned out
Think Primeape is firmly PU at this point, second-fastest viable mon behind Scyther and has great coverage, no longer has to worry about being outsped by Rapidash, and speedcreeps Magmar, u should def try out this mon if u play the tier
With Rapidash gone Scyther is now the fastest mon which is good for Grav. Previously Rapidash + Grav also stacked type weaknesses to waters and since Rapidash was rlly hard to drop u would generally have to drop Grav
Worse
I think Pidgeot loses a lot here. Primeape and Scyther benefit a lot from outspeeding Magmar while Pidgeot is still slower than it. As I mentioned with Grav there is more reason to run it which is bad for Pidgeot.
Unsure
Rapidash leaving is good for Scyther but Scyther being better means there is more incentive to run Grav which makes Scyther worse? Because of that I'm not sure how Scyther will turn out.
Obviously Rapidash being gone means there is one less mon these two check, but secondary effects such as Graveler potentially picking up, and the way the NFEs turn out (staryu improving bad for these 2 for example) makes it hard to tell imo
I'm not gonna talk about every mon just the ones I want to talk about
Better
As I hinted 2 posts above Magmar is the new dominant fire. It doesn't seem as broken as Rapidash since it is outsped by ape and scyther and lacks fire spin, but you can never be too sure. I said the EXACT SAME THING about Rapidash after Arcanine rose and we saw how well that turned out
Think Primeape is firmly PU at this point, second-fastest viable mon behind Scyther and has great coverage, no longer has to worry about being outsped by Rapidash, and speedcreeps Magmar, u should def try out this mon if u play the tier
With Rapidash gone Scyther is now the fastest mon which is good for Grav. Previously Rapidash + Grav also stacked type weaknesses to waters and since Rapidash was rlly hard to drop u would generally have to drop Grav
Worse
I think Pidgeot loses a lot here. Primeape and Scyther benefit a lot from outspeeding Magmar while Pidgeot is still slower than it. As I mentioned with Grav there is more reason to run it which is bad for Pidgeot.
Unsure
Rapidash leaving is good for Scyther but Scyther being better means there is more incentive to run Grav which makes Scyther worse? Because of that I'm not sure how Scyther will turn out.
Obviously Rapidash being gone means there is one less mon these two check, but secondary effects such as Graveler potentially picking up, and the way the NFEs turn out (staryu improving bad for these 2 for example) makes it hard to tell imo