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[Lumi_Nati 31]

Specs Starmie appreciation post



Starmie has always been a defining BW OU pokemon, but recently it has been in what's probably been it's best place in the tier. now it's even preferred on rain over Tentacruel which would've been crazy like 2-3 years ago, and it sees usage on more teams than ever due to the rise of HO, and even on sand it sees use as a spinner occasionally, either as the standard offensive set on more fast paced teams with mons like Thundy and Dnite, or as a more bulky spinner on bulkier teams, spamming scalds while spinning in front of a lot of passive pokemon that don't really threaten it due to it's access to recover to take repeated weaker hits as well as natural cure to handle status (also it gets bonus points in my book because reflect type rocky helmet starime is so funny if you somehow manage to fit it).

the most popular set though, on both rain and HO, is air balloon, which is probably the most consistent set it could run due to it giving you potential free switches on the plethora of ground types in the tier, and threaten to either KO them with hydro pump or ice beam, or to spin away hazards for pokemon like Volc Thundy and Dnite.

that being said, while not as splashable, specs starmie is downright terrifying. It's not as good at spinning (and sometimes it doesn't even run spin at all!), but in my opinion it's power more than makes up for it

The set:

Starmie @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Thunder
- Flex Slot 1
- Flex Slot 2

while standard starmie is pretty scary to switch into, switching into this starmie is basically impossible if you carry all 3 of hydro ice beam and thunder, but really, the real reason why this set works is that you can just click hydro pump in rain and hit every mon that is not a water immunity on the switch

Some funny hydro calcs (note that these are all only on the switch):

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Rain: 220-259 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Rain: 189-223 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Rain: 259-306 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 160-189 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite in Rain: 237-279 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed in Rain: 237-279 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 172 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 360-426 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Blissey in Rain: 366-432 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in Rain: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi in Rain: 171-202 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides water immunities, nothing likes eating a rain boosted hydro on the switch. Even ferrothorn takes about half with a lot of spdef investment, which is really backbreaking for a pokemon that already needs to handle so many threats in the metagame. Putting so much pressure on what might normally be the #1 starmie switch in the game without really having to predict anything is insane. Oh and blissey can just die to hydro into hydro if rocks are up in rain so there's also that.

That being said, this set isn't all about just taking advantage of how hard hydros in rain hit on the switch, you have a lot of room for freedom in the last 3 slots, although I do think you need at least one of either ice beam to hit celebi and to also just straight up OHKO latios and dnite on the switch from full, and thunder for tentacruel and jellicent, but even then the last 2 slots remain open for quite a lot of options. Besides the usual coverage options, you can really punish the few mons that can switch into hydro in a few ways: the most consistent option by far is trick, because the sturdier mons/water immunities get extremely crippled by being choice locked. Hp grass can be used for seismitoad and gastrodon specifically, surf can be used for a safer water stab that still hits very hard, and of course, rapid spin can be used to get rid of hazards.

I feel like you should never use this set if your primary goal for it to remove hazards. It can do it, better than what you might expect actually, but standard starmie as well as tentacruel and excadrill are more consistent on rain. Having 2 spinners is never a bad thing though, especially if you use a pokemon that really hates hazards like volcarona, dragonite, or the rare moltres.

Instead, you should use it as an attacker that can really pile up the pressure on usual water move switch ins, and then punish safer plays by tricking, taking a free turn to spin, using a coverage move or simply double switching. Either that or make it so the opponent has to sacrifice something. While it's not as strong as something like a specs keldeo on paper, it actually does more damage on the switch and has access to unique tools like rapid spin and trick which set it apart. It's also extremely fast so teams that rely on pokemon like the latis or keldeo for speed control can really get punished by it once the main hydro/surf switch in got chipped as long as you make sure rain stays up.

So all in all, I feel like this set is really under-appreciated. While it is harder to fit than standard starmie, it doesn't really like being locked into rapid spin when forced to remove hazards and hydro pump accuracy means that it might not always be as consistent as I might like it to be, it's still a very fun and unique option that should see more use on rain.

 

[Nalorium]

Far from wanting to share sets or teams in particular. I just want to make an appreciation post that I've been wanting to do for some time about the incredible talent that is emerging in BW. As someone who while I haven't been in the competitive scene for long, I have been keeping a close eye on everything related to BW OU. For the last 5 years I've been pretty much super hooked on this tier and as a complete tier enthusiast myself I've seen many new faces in this tier come and go. And that's why it fills my heart to know the kind of community I currently see brewing on the official BW server and god knows how many friendly servers they will have among them. I especially want to mention a specific tour which I really didn't know much about and I really only joined because fakee asked me to, and that is the Unova Champions League, a tour with a fascinating idea in my opinion to give the opportunity to as many players as possible and see as many new faces as possible. Added to that, knowing that it is created by the BW players themselves and whose managers are themselves, it makes me very happy to know that the tier really is with genuine enthusiasts.

Seeing the BW discord and finding such experienced players with a great knowledge of the tier like Dice, Raiza, Finchinator, Monai or Fakes, among others helping such young players is one of those situations that really fills my heart and reminds me when Caetano was just helping me in 2019/2020 when I started playing the tier. While I know great communities like ADV or RBY, I feel that BW has nothing to envy to the others. I feel, from the bottom of my heart, that the tier is in the perfect balance between very experienced players, relatively young players but with a great knowledge of the tier and new players excited to improve all helping each other for the tier to grow and improve. Really beyond complaining and fighting about things that anyone can dislike or like about the tier, I feel that this is the perfect way to really make the tier reach a balance where at least the majority of players are happy with it. A friendly community, full of enthusiasm where it is very friendly to new players who want to come and learn from it. Where there is a constant flow of ideas that really come to a conclusion and not just “for me BW is currently garbage”.
Taking advantage of the fact that SPL is approaching, I feel that it never hurts to give a small mention to all those new names that are really giving something to talk about and that in my opinion I feel that due to their knowledge and how quickly they have improved, they deserve at least a position as assistants on any team and even a position as sub and who knows even as a starter.

Meesm: I have to admit that for these BWPL finals I tryharded like I have rarely done and after studying him and his teams. I feel that he is one of the best short-term promises. He already has a lot of experience in the tier and has won tours like the RoaPL. He is a very versatile player capable of using almost any team at a very good level.

marsandback: On a similar note we got this guy, another player with already a great deal of experience in the tier who in my opinion already has enough knowledge to be a very good sub or support in this edition of SPL.

Cow: I think I knew this guy when he was just starting and his future is absolutely brilliant. In the short time that I have known him I feel that he has improved a lot and already has a very good knowledge about the tier, without a doubt I would consider him as a very good support for any player.

W2S: I find it very unfair to have to mention him on this list because I feel like he already belongs on a different list. He is already a player who in my opinion absolutely deserves a spot as a sub in this SPL.

48: Another player who has already made a name for himself in the tier and has improved a lot over time

dawn to the dusk: Another enthusiastic BW. He has been in the tier for a long time and like other names on this list I feel that he already deserves a spot

Chomp29: A player who has already made a name for himself in the tier in a very short time, I feel like he's a very good prospect for the future who just needs more experience in the tier.

Alice: Even though she's not knew to the pokemon scene and she is already a great GSC and RBY player, the level she has shown in BW is absolutelty incredible and i think she def deserves a mention.

Jaajgko: Idk if he will signup for spl, but the level he showed in BW CUP and BWPL was absolutelty amazing. Def a player with a brilliant future and that i would love to see in the future.

Cryolite: I dont know this guy much but the level he has shown in BW CUP was really incredible. Wanted to see more of him in BWPL

and since i wanna sleep, on a similar category there are also some great bw enthusiasts with a very good long-term future such as BLJ Mario, someone with who i teammup in BWPL and all he needs is practice to keep improving in the tier, Magiaalice someone i faced a couple of times in ladder and shows some really good plays, OmBrAch winner of the bw tour they created and leoperi.

Im sorry if i didnt mention u, prolly i just forgot.

Please excuse my english

Draft fucking feaniix and fakee

 

[BLJ mario]

Ty nalo, I hope things go well for you, we never will really know what’s in the future but I hope that me and all the other upcoming bwers will be able to teach the new generation of bwers after we have accomplished great results, I hope things go well for you in the future. As for everyone else, I would also like to take a moment to thank the bw community as a whole for being one of the nicest communities ever. The bw discord was one of the places where I could learn from top players and improve my gameplay. I feel like now, my level of knowledge is way higher than I ever expected it to be, and I’m happy for that. Winning bwpl made me very happy, as it might catapult me into the spotlight for many other tours in the future, I hope to team with all of you in the community sometime.
Would like to shoutout my tutor Monai for helping me learn a lot more about bw, he helped kickstart my career
Feaniix for drafting me in bwpl and helping me with t building teams and testing out stuff, this guy is a great friend.
Dababy2 for being the goat, he helped me with my mental for bw
And thank you to this whole community, I don’t know what’s in store in the future but I hope things will shine on this place, Gn.

 

[Tack]

I'm gonna hella +1 the reccomendation of meessm here he is genuinely one of the most dedicated players i have worked with in years and has an incredible amount of skill. this dude's like genuinely amazing and will be popping off hardcore if he sticks around.

 

[BLJ mario]

Merry Christmas everyone! with SPL right around the corner and another year of BW awaits, I would like to catalogue some recent trends in the BW OU Meta, at least from what i have seen.


Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 192 HP / 64 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Payback
This set got used multiple times in BWPL, Monai's Invitational, and in the recent BW circuit, which should put this mon on everyone's radar. Sheer force sets are still unviable, but bulk up guts conk is great on HO because you can threaten to trade with almost any pokemon in the game with a single free turn, which it often gets when switching into things like rotom wash will o wisps, tyranitar crunch, and Ferrothorn. We have recently been seeing this paired with Healing wish, as most teams can barely deal with conk as is. EVs are a Chomp29 spread, this guy from what i know really pioneered bulk up conk right around after SPL, we built a couple teams with it and it did well vs the teams of the meta.


Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 96 Def / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain
LO Modest volc is one of the scariest things to face, as it is one of the few pokemon that can OHKO tyranitar at +1, and it seems kinda similar to the bug gem of the past, because both net the kill on ttar, but unlike bug gem, Modest LO Volc can threaten to OHKO gliscor, Politoed, Ttar, and do massive damage to Clefable and maybe even OHKOing it outright. if this gets a single set up turn, you are in trouble. I recently built a team with Conkeldurr and Modest LO Volc which is kinda cool, but others have been pairing them with scarf h wish rachi or even latias for double h wish.


Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 32 SpA / 24 SpD / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Leaf Storm
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Nasty Plot Bi is also something that is able to OHKO ttar with a single boost, this spread does so with rocks but there are spreads that can OHKO standard tar without rocks. NP bi can not only plug holes in teams thanks to its fantastic typing, but it can set up in front of a bunch of things, with np it does big damage to Ferro even in rain, and OHKOes scizor without the boost. there are some bi with hp ice and enough speed to outspeed landorus-therian, which is also nice at times.


Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide
This one is probably the most familiar set of the bunch to the old BWers, but as of recent it has grown popular as being a great lategame cleaner, as sand force lets you OHKO Latios and Keldeo with even a little bit of chip with iron head and EQ, respectively. This exca gives you a wincon and emergency spinner, and i like to build my endgames toward a scarf drill sweep because its so good at pulling it off. I have used multiple scarf drills so far, and i still think sd is a good set but scarf should be worth considering on a team.


Let it Snow! (Abomasnow) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 68 Def / 72 SpA / 84 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Focus Punch
- Ice Shard
Peng has a fantastic video about hail which i will link Here , Hail is kind of seeing usage in the BW Meta as a new way to explore HO, aboma can switch into politoed, and with a mixed set, it can 2HKO Tyranitar on the swap. things like Dragonite, Scarf Garchomp, Kyurem Black, and even Gyarados, Reuniclus, and Alakazam(I'm currently cooking that one and will have an RMT about it on christmas day) can abuse the hail set by aboma. Hail is sorta the new DragMag of the meta but replace mag with hail, and steels get chipped into range of latios dracos, Garchomp Outrages, and lots of other things. this aboma spread is one of many that are viable in the current meta. I suspect we will see more of this in the future.

I probably missed a couple things and i might not be as good at explaining them as other people, but I just wanted to shed some light on these guys before SPL.

 

[phosphor]

Hi! Here's some stuff I have used, mileage may vary.



Landorus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SpA / 236 Spe
Naughty Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Superpower

For offensive teams, you hard switch this into Ferrothorn then you can either Superpower it, SD up and Superpower the Rotom, SD Superpower/ EQ can hit Skarm and Hippo hard, you can bait an opposing Lando HP Ice with Yache, if you have enough HP even sometimes you can chip a Thundy, etc.


Keldeo-Resolute @ Air Balloon
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Ice]

I think this can work for teams that want to turn Mamoswine or some other EQ users into a free attack. Not hurt by Spikes as well.


Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force/ Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

I think this set is already known but living a Focus Blast and threatening some stuff can be really good for some teams.


Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 172 HP / 84 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 172 HP / 128 Atk / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin

A very hard counterpick against SkarmJelli.


Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Roost

Losing WW is rough but having both Taunt and Helmet+ BB can be really good if you compensate for it well.


Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic

Donphan sucks, but if you are going to use it, I think this is the only set you can go with, because Jellicent will readily spinblock you. Toxic was a suggestion from dice who I won't ping because I don't wanna annoy him


Thundurus-Therian @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 160 HP / 40 SpA / 156 SpD / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

Really bulky 4 attack Thundurus can be cool, you start surviving some really surprising stuff like Specs Tornadus Hurricane twice after SR (not that Specs Tornadus is so used anymore...).


Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 160 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Roost

For Rain teams, a really hard switchin to Ferrothorn that can always Sub and not have it be broken by Gyro Ball and can hit all of the spinners hard can be something pretty strong.


Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Fire]

For HO teams, punish those Starmies and Rotoms while not losing momentum vs other stuff.


Abomasnow @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Rest

This set makes switching into Politoed and Tentacruel much easier, I think.


Mamoswine @ Salac Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Substitute
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake

A Finchinator set that I use on teams that I think I would have used Cloyster on.


Salamence @ Yache Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang

A Moxie user that can live one HP Ice and hit as many walls as it can hard can be a valuable momentum shifter for offense.


Jirachi @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Energy Ball

An option for offensive teams that can hardswitch into Ferrothorn and set up and damage things. Hits Waters hard. OHKOs 0 investment Excadrill at +1.


Conkeldurr @ Muscle Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Mach Punch

I originally conceived this set to lead and sack itself to trade with as many things as possible. Dud against Reuniclus, but beyond that, it lives Specs Latios Meteor from full, and the elemental punches can bait a Rotom or Jellicent or such to burn it and that can lead to a kill.


Gliscor @ Power Herb
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sky Attack
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

Another Ground-type offensive tool that can switch into a Ferrothorn hazard, set up, and potentially sack itself to hit Rotom/ Skarmory hard at +2/4. Or just let Sky Attack fly and hit something.


Uxie @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 128 HP / 148 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Memento

Counters Taunt leads, avoids Starmie 2HKO, hits Toed and Tenta hard, and can sack itself with Memento to deny certain spins and setups.


Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 204 Atk / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Rash Nature
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Waterfall
- Extreme Speed

For Rain, hard switch this into Ferrothorn and click Hurricane I guess.


I've tried some other stuff as well but they are even more situational than these picks and so probably won't be that inspiring.

 

[Finchinator]

Landorus-T @ Yache Berry

Just on standard SR or even other variants. Can bluff scarf, gives you the ability to force progress in Lando-T mirror if you have Drill/Terrak, and helps leverage position against Ice Zam, Ice 310 Celebi, Mamo, Mie who think they have a KO w/out risking miss, Fakes DD Ice Nite, LO Ice Terrak, Thundy-T, Mix Rachi, Ice Tar, and Ice Conk. It honestly ends up coming into play in most games I have used it.

Yes, there is drawback in missing Leftovers. You lose survivability against Terrak, Scarf Jira, Drill, Chomp, etc., but it’s more than worthwhile if you flip an entire sequence when using a proactive team.

I used it on RP U-Turn with Zone some time ago, but in modern BW GtG used it first a few weeks ago in SPL on a really solid squad and I used it this past week. Have seen a few others in recent times, too.

Not for every team, but it flips game states and should see more usage for sure.

 

[Finchinator]

The moderation team is working on updating Sample Teams and the Viability Rankings in the coming days/weeks. Stay tuned for more

 

[Soda_Eesti]

Finally a legal dragmag??? (Sorry not sorry for the one-liner)

 

[Finchinator]

7 winners and 7 losers of recent (SPL/early 2025) BW OU developments

Winners:

• Jirachi -- We have seen Jirachi have more usage than its peers in low A or high A- rank on the VR before, but this SPL is the most damning outlier. Jirachi is comfortably top 5 in usage, coming in at number 4 as the most used Steel type in BW OU this SPL. This is above staples of the tier like Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Skarmory. So let's take a look under the hood:
  • Jirachi's Choice Scarf variant overtook Scizor as the dominant Steel on Hyper Offense, which is as strong as ever. Healing Wish is valuable, it offers a unique revenge killing speed tier, and it can even clean teams after would-be Iron Head stoppers like Ferrothorn and Rotom-Wash get exhausted in the early game. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, but Jirachi has become the best Choice Scarf user in modern BW OU by sheer usage.
  • Jirachi's mixed sets have taken off. The volume is much smaller than Choice Scarf, but the effectiveness is great if you do not run into the small handful of things that wall your four moves. It is a fishing machine with chance to Freeze, Burn, Paralyze, and flinch, which makes it a high ceiling Pokemon as is. It does suck having to pick between Energy Ball/Grass Knot and Thunder/Thunderbolt, but you can usually have it play off of your team's strengths. Being able to soft check Alakazam and Latios while outrunning Landorus-T, Excadrill, and Gliscor and pose an actual threat is just a huge piece of role compression.
  • It permits different team structures than we have seen before while accounting for Hail/Ice types, which have been chronically ignored or underprepared for by generic Sand builds. On Rain, you have another Steel option to reshuffle the deck of abusers and help with otherwise potent Sash Alakazam. On Sand, you can afford different speed control and hazard setters based on Jirachi's placement. On Hyper Offense, you have revenge killing and double dipping prospects that otherwise did not exist.
  • Jirachi's fatal flaw in BW OU has always been Spikes, but multiple Rapid Spinners -- Starmie and Excadrill -- are very good while having teams wher 5-6 Pokemon threaten Spike setters is a common practice.
• Volcarona -- Volcarona has some ups and downs in BW as it bottomed out a bit during CG BW OU at times when Heatran was more common, we had weather+speed abilities, and stall was more prominent. Additionally, in the post-Gem ban BW OU landscape, it was more fishy than prior editions as Volcarona both needed the right coverage and item to make a sweep possible. I will admit its usage is still around 10% in SPL, but we are definitely accounting for it more than that and it is seeing a lot of usage elsewhere. Enter Life Orb Volcarona -- everything changed with Life Orb's coming out party. Here's why:
  • Life Orb Volcarona with an entry hazard setting lead functionally does the same as Bug Gem Volcarona did: disposes of Tyranitar and Politoed at +1. These are common initial responses to Volcarona that can either trade with it or make a sweep impossible due to some form of crippling. Now (more often than not, but not quite always) +1 Volcarona after SR is able to take them out while remaining healthy.
  • You eliminate a ton of other would-be checks. SDef Gliscor never lives +1 Modest LO Fire Blast, Monai SDef Landorus-T always dies with SR and frequently from full, non-Choice Scarf Terrakion in Sand no longer checks if if you are Psychic, Tentacruel falls to Psychic as well, etc. (there are ranges you could look at vs Hippowdon, Clefable, Rotom-W, and non-Toxic Chansey/Blissey as well).
  • People have begun using Volcarona as a breaker/attacker in early games when you may be facing a >100 Choice Scarf user, Dragonite with Extreme Speed, or game state that simply seems hard to sweep with. A lead Volcarona or early Volcarona spamming Bug Buzz/Fire Blast can net a KO or chip something for a teammate that makes it a higher floor option than it used to be. Previously you relied more on Quiver Dance for damage, but Modest's uptick alongside Life Orb's boost gives you a glass cannon in the event that you are not snowballing towards a sweep.
  • Context is everything -- you pair nicely with aforementioned Choice Scarf Jirachi or soon-to-be mentioned Healing Wish Latias. Starmie is as good as ever, too, which is the Rapid Spin user of choice when the opponent finds an opening to set-up Stealth Rock.
• Hippowdon -- In a metagame where reliably setting Stealth Rock is more convulted than ever outside of Landorus-T and Ferrothorn, Hippowdon is the picture of consistentcy with a whole host of utility. Perhaps dice saw the vision first with variants of his archetype resurfacing every week now. This description is only a piece of its overall profile, however, as Hippowdon does a great job at a lot of things. Let's break it down:
  • Keeping Sand up to dissuade other weather and force chip is huge. The chip element adds up a lot over games that are drawn out, too, as you see a ton of flimsy offenses nowadays that would seem to run over bulky teams. I would argue this match-up is very doable for a good Hippowdon team, however, as so many things are on an expedited timer.
  • 1v1ing a whole slew of common attackers that you do not necessarily countr -- with Slack Off in particular, it is keeping itself healthy for (non-Grass Knot) Jirachi, (also non-Grass Knot) Focus Sash Alakazam, Mold Breaker Excadrill, Tyranitar, Choice Scarf Ground types, non-Choice Band Terrakion, and others.
  • It allows for a ton of structures that Tyranitar does not. SDef Skarmory and Clefable in particular thrive with it, but we have also seen some niche picks like Hydreigon from dice or Rocky Helmet Latias from myself. These teams have the ability to cover offense with revenge killing sequences and pressure while still hanging along with certain bulky teams, having defeated both at various points in SPL alone.
  • The last move has more flexibility than you think. Rock Slide is the traditional pick to OHKO Volcarona and hit Thundurus-T, but if you are paired with support like Focus Sash Psyshock Alakazam, then you can easily fit Ice Fang, which nobody accounts for with the initial usage of Gliscor and Landorus-T, or Whirlwind, which is a huge progress forcer with Spikes up. Even Toxic is a good option for non-NP/GK Thundurus-T, incoming Rotom-Wash, non-Trick/Specs Latios, and incoming Air Balloon Starmie, which you can easily outlast to keep Stealth Rock up with only a few sequences with teammates.
• Latias -- Latias is, as peng astutely explained, Latios with a lower special attack stat, higher bulk, and a different coat of paint. Latios is the GOAT BW OU Pokemon, naturally making Latias very good if used properly. The issue has always been finding ways to justify it. I think that differentiation came with exploration. While this is no golden age by any stretch of the imagination, Latias distinguished itself to the tune of seeing as much usage as Rain as a whole, which years ago would have seemed more satirical than anything else. How did it distinguish itself and surface as relevant in modern BW? Let's dive in:
  • The glaringly obvious reason would be the one thing Latios does not have: Healing Wish. We have seen Choice Specs or Dual Screens Latias with Healing Wish before, but now it is perhaps better than ever with the trajectory of HO teams and the utility it has by checking Keldeo, Thundurus-Therian, Rotom-Wash, and Heatran. We have seen Latias thrown on HO teams originally constructed by Fakes and MeEsSm and this is quickly emerging as one of the most common offensive team picks in the metagame.
  • Utility sets are arguably better than ever in a tier where role compression is king, too. I used a Rocky Helmet variant with Thunder Wave + Reflect, which probably saw ancient usage by SoulWind and a few others some years back. I am sure Calm Mind has some viability as a tankier variant, too, which Chomp29 alluded to in various chats.
  • Higher bulk actually has a series of relevant calculations for pressure points to offense, but I hesitate to bring this up as Rain is at an all-time low (will get to this in second half of post) and these range mean less due to that. It is still at most a high A- or low A tier Pokemon that will see a decent fraction of Latios usage, but the fact that it is comforably on the map and that fraction is even noteworthy is a huge improvement relative to prior years. You can argue it can live Psy/Focus + Signal/SBall after SR+Sand from Alakazam or tank priority a bit better than Latios, too, but these become more game state specific than firm calculations.
• Clefable -- I hesitated to include this as it is not a huge winner. You can argue it stayed the same and we just have seen a few more Hippowdon + Clefable teams recently, for example. However, I am perhaps a bit bias and view different variants of Clefable as a decent mover. Let me try to break it down:
  • Encore Clefable is really good and underrated. It checks Reuniclus when it is one of the biggest issues to the archetype. It pairs super well with Thunder Wave, too.
  • Ice Beam Clefable does no damage to most things, but it similarly helps with a huge pain to balance: Gliscor. Another added bonus is that it gets a ton of chances to freeze things and buy a free turn (or kill outright) in sensitive balance mirrors.
  • Classic characteristics like hazard and status immunity are as good as ever now. No real additional notes -- it's just a continuation honestly.
• Rotom-Wash -- The spin cycle is back in the right direction for Rotom-Wash. It has become one of BW's most practical glue pieces and here's why:
  • You check the annoying shit. It makes building way more possible. It is truly that simple. Sand Force Excadrill? No problem. Mamoswine? Maybe if you break math buddy. Iron Head Jirachi? No thanks. You can extend this to Swords Dance Scizor, Tornadus, or offensive Starmie, who you check a bit softer, too.
  • A newer development is a lot of teams outright struggle with Rotom-Wash when you factor in Volt Switch + Tyranitar putting a timer on Latios/Latias. Suddenly your teams do not really beat Rotom-Wash cleanly, but instead are forced to trade with it and save weakened Pokemon to avoid untimely Pain Split sequences. It is actually a huge strain that offers breaking power into balance or at least prompts easily predictable pivots into Clefable or Blissey, which can be exploited by Volt Switch. This is among the saving graces of the old guard of Chople Tyranitar Bulky-Offense, which otherwise would have probably been a slight loser in this whole ordeal.
  • Faster Rotom-W for outrunning Grounds and Leftovers Dragonite, Hidden Power Rotom-W to be less reliant on Hydro Pump accuracy/PP and flip some match-ups, RestoChesto Rotom-W to soak up status temporarily and avoid Pain Split reliance, and Thunder Wave Rotom-W to surprise Clefable, Reuniclus, Latis, and more have all seen usage in SPL. Obviously classic TrickScarf is good, too. Rotom-W really is just a timeless great in BW OU that will find a way to get back into the top 10-15 Pokemon eventually at all costs.
• Terrakion -- Terrakion has consistently straddled the A/A- line while being pretty good, but not great. I actually think this still describes it and I would even lean on the A- side, but it did add another variant that has not been good for some time, so that at least deserves some notice. I do not see it as a big winner and I guess some people see it as a loser/not quite good enough based on recent STour discussion, but it has a more clearly defined role at least and it definitely has a lot of sticking power in current BW, which we can get into:
  • Scarf Terrakion was a clasically used BW OU set when offense reigned supreme in parts of CG BW. It had a big dip in usage when people used utility Landorus-T and Gliscor more both back then and again in post-CG BW, but we are finally seeing it pick up usage again. My game against Sergio is an example of how good it is to have a fast, but still sufficiently strong, Choice Scarf user into HO. You can RK a +1 Volcarona, +2 Dragonite, SD Garchomp, Scarf Salamence, etc. and do so without being weak to Pursuit afterwards to cap you at 1 KO.
  • Band Terrakion is still good as it always is. Stone Edge missing sucks, but CC is very spammable into Latios Bulky-Offense, especially with the downtick slightly in Reuniclus usage and Slowbro being nowhere to be seen. Quick Attack is actually clicked more than ever with how much flimsy offense we see, but there is less tangibly defined stuff for this and more gamestate specific honestly.
  • One downside of Band or non-Scarf Terrakion in general is LO Volcarona with Psychic can KO it in Sand after SR at +1, but you still live Giga Drain if you are near full health and Sand is up at least.

Honorable mentions: Alakazam for being one of the most potent Pokemon in the tier and Magneton for a few crafty brings by JustFranco and the BIGs BW core that may have a little sticking power

Losers (lesser descriptions because it is more fun to discuss what is good than what is suddenly worse):

• Politoed :Politod: -- Rain is worse right now than ever. Finding a way to use it essentially involves accepting bigger holes than most deem ideal. A lot of Rain teams that forgo Choice Scarf Keldeo end up weak to Giga Drain or Psychic Volcarona, which is common on HO, despite it being a Fire type or other HO threats due to lack of reliable revenge killing. A lot of teams that go with Choice Scarf Keldeo and cannot fit Scizor or Jirachi end up weak to Alakazam, especially Focus Sash variants with Spikes support. If you fit Choice Scarf Keldeo + Scizor/Jirachi, then you are going to end up short on breaking power for bulky teams or without crucial Rain building-blocks like entry hazards or hazard removal of your own. Sure, there are little ways around this we have seen like fitting Choice Band Dragonite as a spare revenge killer onto Rain, throwing on the right resist berries to patch up certain match-ups, or flexing around other roles, but they all come with major trade-offs. You can usually be ok trading with Terrakion teams or stockpiling as much tempo and progress as possible into opposing Rotom-Wash teams with good play, but the obstacles of the metagame naturally are adding up to more than ever before for Rain. It is almost like Rain is just a step or two behind in this game of awkward, match-up whack-a-mole. It used to be level or even a step ahead in this arms race of BW evolution, but this is certainly not the case now. Politoed's usage is at an all-time low and we will see Rain Pokemon scattered throughout this section as a result.
• Keldeo -- Keldeo suffers naturally from the above point as the second best Rain abuser behind Thundurus-Therian, but it also lost out in every other way, too. For starters, Keldeo was a great equalizer for Sand teams against Hyper Offense. Being faster than Garchomp, Volcarona, Scizor, Dragonite, etc. and having good coverage naturally made it impossible to switch-in to aside from Air Balloon Starmie, which does not even want to take Hidden Power and does not even OHKO it. However, you now are seeing less SD Scizor than ever, Volcarona is constantly running Giga Drain or Psychic, Latias has made its way onto HO, and Conkeldurr is arguably the most common Fighting type on the archetype, which beats Leftovers Keldeo. To make matters even worse, the ability to even fit Keldeo on Sand is harder than ever, especially with winners like Rotom-Wash being so necessary. Keldeo mandates Rapid Spin on most Sand teams due to being weak to Spikes and not fitting on fast paced enough teams to fit 6/6 Pokemon that pressure Spikes users or an abundance of Spike immune Pokemon. Moreover, you are now forced to use Tyranitar + Excadrill + Keldeo, which is a very hard team to finish with few possible outcomes, all of which come with big trade-offs and potential vulnerabilities to common things. Latios (or Amoonguss or Rotom-W + Alakazam) is typically mandated too for opposing Keldeo and there is still a huge list of other things to cover with just the remaining two slots. Finally, Keldeo weatherless is still uncommon -- it has bad synergy with Rapid Spin Starmie on these builds and also is still easy to revenge kill with Alakazam, which is even worse if you lack something like Tyranitar in the back. Keldeo is still good. KeldTar is clasically effective. Keld on Rain is potent. It is just harder to use and less common than ever before. We have seen Hippowdon and Garchomp more this SPL than Keldeo -- I think this says it all.
• Mamoswine -- Mostly boils down to Ice Shard being super effective into fewer Pokemon on offense. It still is fine, but with Jirachi, Volcarona, Conkeldurr, etc. taking up slots you may have previously seen go to Breloom or a secound Ground type, you already are up against it with something slower and not super bulky like Mamoswine. Rotom-W being all over the place also hurts. I do believe Choice Band Double Edge is the savior for Mamoswine, but it fits so few teams that it definitely has taken a hit in overall viability nonetheless. Stiff competition for team slots and diminished role hurt it the most, which we saw after it only showed up one time all SPL.
• Tentacruel -- Not only is Rain worse and Tentacruel pretty much Rain locked unless you are SoulWind and feeling frisky, but Tentacruel takes up significantly less of the pie-chart on Rain than it once did. Starmie is used just as much, if not more, on Rain teams. In addition, Excadrill Rain has been explored with to compress some roles. In an age of increased Jellicent, Psychic Volcarona, Psyshock being the default on Sash Alakazam, and Magic Guard being as good as ever, Tentacruel suffers quite a bit sadly. It failed to crack 5% usage in SPL for the first time in a long time.
• Tornadus -- Imagine being considered a fish within an archetype that itself is now considered mostly a fish -- enter Tornadus. With more Flying resists and resistance to inaccurate moves than ever before, it is no shock that Tornadus did not show up all SPL and continues to bottom out.
• Scizor -- SD Scizor is still good, but it has been largely replaced archetype wise by the far more common and arguably more practical Scarf Jirachi. Choiced sets, however, continue to fall off of the face of the Earth. I think HO will see a Scizor bounce back at some point though as it is quite good, but the limitations it has and the uptick of Fire coverage and options to burn it stings in the meantime. Shoutout to the people who used my Sitrus set on Rain though -- nice creative application there to make something of it.
• Abomasnow -- Abomasnow was more than jus a flash in the pan, but Hail has come back down to normal levels after peaking mid-late last year as a more common variant of offense. I still think the old dice build is ok and different applications can work, but they have some holes that take coping to justify at times I admit. Usage ticked down a good bit in SPL, but I wonder if it will become cyclical or not.

Honorable mentions: Breloom and Aerodactyl for both falling off the face of the Earth on Hyper Offense. Breloom is still usable, albeit fishy, in a variety of ways while Aerodactyl has just fallen out of favor as a lead option in the current landscape. I suppose Aerodactyl was always fring, but it felt like it distinguished itself enough during Cloyster metagame to have some sticking power until it vanished entirely.

 

[decis]

Hello, i wanted to share some teams that i built after restarting mons for the bwwc.. sadly we're out so my time to quit again has come.
Hope you guys like them.




This was the first team i built, wanted to use something that could help me beat those classic alakaferrosand/rain teams. Not an easy team to use but it's funny especially with that celebi set that is unexpected.
Chople Excadrill spread allows him to survive against non CB/LO CC Rak, all the SS Keldeo variants and all the classic mpunch users ( thats situational ). Stone Edge keldeo to not lose against Volcarona if i hit.




Wanted to build a 2.0 version of Asuya's Skarm-Jelli team.
There's no much to say, classic ride or die team. Peaked 1 in lad with it.




Classic rain team with Gyarados. Hit 1700 on lad.




Team that i used in bwwc, sadly i lost but its super funny to use if ur not an alakasand boring kid.




another bwwc team, wanted to try specs kyub + volca. building process is basic, no need to explain i think.




HO with prio spam, struggels vs fatconkel but overall is cute to use.

 

[EG Jhonx~]

Specs Starmie appreciation post



Starmie has always been a defining BW OU pokemon, but recently it has been in what's probably been it's best place in the tier. now it's even preferred on rain over Tentacruel which would've been crazy like 2-3 years ago, and it sees usage on more teams than ever due to the rise of HO, and even on sand it sees use as a spinner occasionally, either as the standard offensive set on more fast paced teams with mons like Thundy and Dnite, or as a more bulky spinner on bulkier teams, spamming scalds while spinning in front of a lot of passive pokemon that don't really threaten it due to it's access to recover to take repeated weaker hits as well as natural cure to handle status (also it gets bonus points in my book because reflect type rocky helmet starime is so funny if you somehow manage to fit it).

the most popular set though, on both rain and HO, is air balloon, which is probably the most consistent set it could run due to it giving you potential free switches on the plethora of ground types in the tier, and threaten to either KO them with hydro pump or ice beam, or to spin away hazards for pokemon like Volc Thundy and Dnite.

that being said, while not as splashable, specs starmie is downright terrifying. It's not as good at spinning (and sometimes it doesn't even run spin at all!), but in my opinion it's power more than makes up for it

The set:

Starmie @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Thunder
- Flex Slot 1
- Flex Slot 2

while standard starmie is pretty scary to switch into, switching into this starmie is basically impossible if you carry all 3 of hydro ice beam and thunder, but really, the real reason why this set works is that you can just click hydro pump in rain and hit every mon that is not a water immunity on the switch

Some funny hydro calcs (note that these are all only on the switch):

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Rain: 220-259 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Rain: 189-223 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Rain: 259-306 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 160-189 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite in Rain: 237-279 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed in Rain: 237-279 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 172 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 360-426 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Blissey in Rain: 366-432 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in Rain: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi in Rain: 171-202 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides water immunities, nothing likes eating a rain boosted hydro on the switch. Even ferrothorn takes about half with a lot of spdef investment, which is really backbreaking for a pokemon that already needs to handle so many threats in the metagame. Putting so much pressure on what might normally be the #1 starmie switch in the game without really having to predict anything is insane. Oh and blissey can just die to hydro into hydro if rocks are up in rain so there's also that.

That being said, this set isn't all about just taking advantage of how hard hydros in rain hit on the switch, you have a lot of room for freedom in the last 3 slots, although I do think you need at least one of either ice beam to hit celebi and to also just straight up OHKO latios and dnite on the switch from full, and thunder for tentacruel and jellicent, but even then the last 2 slots remain open for quite a lot of options. Besides the usual coverage options, you can really punish the few mons that can switch into hydro in a few ways: the most consistent option by far is trick, because the sturdier mons/water immunities get extremely crippled by being choice locked. Hp grass can be used for seismitoad and gastrodon specifically, surf can be used for a safer water stab that still hits very hard, and of course, rapid spin can be used to get rid of hazards.

I feel like you should never use this set if your primary goal for it to remove hazards. It can do it, better than what you might expect actually, but standard starmie as well as tentacruel and excadrill are more consistent on rain. Having 2 spinners is never a bad thing though, especially if you use a pokemon that really hates hazards like volcarona, dragonite, or the rare moltres.

Instead, you should use it as an attacker that can really pile up the pressure on usual water move switch ins, and then punish safer plays by tricking, taking a free turn to spin, using a coverage move or simply double switching. Either that or make it so the opponent has to sacrifice something. While it's not as strong as something like a specs keldeo on paper, it actually does more damage on the switch and has access to unique tools like rapid spin and trick which set it apart. It's also extremely fast so teams that rely on pokemon like the latis or keldeo for speed control can really get punished by it once the main hydro/surf switch in got chipped as long as you make sure rain stays up.

So all in all, I feel like this set is really under-appreciated. While it is harder to fit than standard starmie, it doesn't really like being locked into rapid spin when forced to remove hazards and hydro pump accuracy means that it might not always be as consistent as I might like it to be, it's still a very fun and unique option that should see more use on rain.

As a Rain Offense spammer I think Starmie only needs as a must Surf if Specs in Rain, u hit safe and KO or 2HKO Anything

 

[Gypsy]

 

[hukhuk]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-2396097009-rj4fx7999vnejknowt06bbjjpxpi820pw
Why this thing is not ban?
This the most no skill mon ever and i have legit 0 conterplay

 

[Eeveeto]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-2396097009-rj4fx7999vnejknowt06bbjjpxpi820pw
Why this thing is not ban?
This the most no skill mon ever and i have legit 0 conterplay

I mean, that specific set is countered by any Normal type with recovery or Leftovers. More common sets are handled by Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi and the rare Metagross. Offensive pressure overall gives Reuniclus problems and its completely shut down by Trick or the rare Encore. If its the most common move combination Stab/Blast/CM/Recover, you can also run Sableye or Spiritomb in order to play with 6 Mons vs 5.
Reuniclus is a good Mon, but not problematic for the meta. Would rather look into Latios, Spikes or Zam (who is bad, but wins games whenever Focus Blast hits, therefore I dont want to have it as resource for other players while I dont use it).

 

[peng]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-2396097009-rj4fx7999vnejknowt06bbjjpxpi820pw
Why this thing is not ban?
This the most no skill mon ever and i have legit 0 conterplay

This set is cheese but this was super winnable for you, despite what looks like a bad matchup. The set relies on not getting crit for upwards of 40 turns but you need to actually be going for that option. Spending all your turns switching and vswitching, which doesn't actually capitalise on your crit or para chances, isn't the line to take.

You're in a good position on turn 5 but need to commit. You probably need to go to Excadrill way earlier - no monoattacker Reuniclus will hit it hard and based on the damage you were doing to it later, it looks like you have favoured rolls to OHKO off a crit, and you'll get like 16 chances to do so. At minimum you force a switch to Skarmory and then they have to reset the entire loop later, from +0 and paralysed. Either that or you stay with Tyranitar and commit to Crunching, which'll have a decent chance of critting before you die to helmet, and bonus def drop chances - there's nothing else on the opponents team that you need Tyranitar for here so I think its fine to crit chase, all the while denying it free Calm Minds.

The problem is you waste a lot of turns pivoting between Rotom-W and Tyranitar, just giving it free boosts, and by the time you go to Excadrill it now does so much damage to you that you can't crit fish it.

The set is stupid but there's a reason nobody uses it - its odds of success, especially when just thrown out on turn 3 of the game, are ridiculously low. Paralysed Reuniclus vs a bunch of mons that can OHKO it off crit should lose almost all situations where you just hit it with strong moves. There's very occasional situations where people play optimally vs it and Reuniclus still makes it out alive, sure, but you can't just show replays of letting it go to +5/+6/+6 for free and expect any tiering action to occur.

 

[peng]

(retired) but wanted to drop some thoughts on Heatran as I built a lot with it for BW World Cup and have strong thoughts on it.

Obviously a lot of us have recognised he is pretty anti-metagame. Standard LO Volc can't hit him. Standard LO Alakazam (the Fire+Grass one) can't hit him. The super aggro Rains don't have Lava Plume switch-ins. Slow Lando-T is trending. Tyranitar frequently drops Fight/Ground coverage. Ferrothorn frequently drops Knock Off to run techs for Volc. All these things are trending up whilst the stuff Heatran tends to dislike (Clef Gliscor Reun for example) are downwards trending. That makes for a good meta for old school Lava Plume Heatran sets.

For the last few years, the go-to Heatran has been Magma Storm + Air Balloon. Whilst I think this will always have a place, its inherently inconsistent and IMO shouldn't be the standard. Huge upside but if you miss Magma vs Scizor you probs just lose loads of games, its not the kind of thing I like. On a general point I think the playerbase isn't risk-averse enough when it comes to 70-75% accuracy stuff and its become normalised again to just spam Focus Blast, Magma Storm, non-rain Thunder like a madman. We even saw multiple Magma+Wisp Heatrans in SPL this year which is just dice-roll simulator in my opinion. So yea I just don't rate Magma Heatran that highly. Following sets will all be Magma-less, which we should use more often.

Sets:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
- Substitute
- Protect
- Lava Plume
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Earth Power / Toxic

Both myself and mars/harshest used this in BW World Cup this year, and built plenty of other teams with it behind the scenes too. Its not a "new" set but has been dormant for a long time, I think only now is it deserving of usage again. The basic premise is that status + Sub Protect is strong, obviously. What really makes it tick, though, is that lots of coverage to hit Heatran is low PP and inaccurate - Hydro Pump, Focus Blast. The result is that Heatran can stall out Rotom-W, Starmie, and Alakazam with decent positioning, whilst the 100% acc moves that hit it - Close Combat, Earthquake - are used by mons that are crippled by burn. Lots of ways to EV this depending on team, from very very fat (probably with Toxic) up to very very fast (with a second coverage move). Fast ones can outrun standard Rotom-W and just cause chaos from the lead position into Lando/RotomW style offenses. Need to pair this with strong anti-Clef/Reun stuff, which isn't too hard in current BW. DON'T USE TORMENT.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 12 Atk
- Protect
- Lava Plume
- Payback
- Stealth Rock / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp / Earth Power

Something a bit DPP inspired. Heatran has a rich physical movepool and occasionally its best coverage is physical. Thankfully it has a decent enough Attack stat to make that work. Payback is stall Heatran's best move to hit Starmie, Latis, Jellicent, and Alakazam in a single slot, it gets damage you simply can't get with uninvested Hidden Power or Dark Pulse.

12 Atk Heatran Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 152-180 (58.2 - 68.9%)
12 Atk Heatran Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%)
12 Atk Heatran Payback (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Jellicent: 152-180 (37.7 - 44.6%) - with burn on top this fucks
12 Atk Heatran Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Alakazam: 252-298 (100.3 - 118.7%)

Here's a segue on Alakazam spreads and how that relates to Heatran: You need a tiny amount of Attack investment and a neutral nature if you want to OHKO 0 bulk LO Alakazam, but its debatable how useful that calc is.

• Focus Sash Alakazam obviously isn't OHKOd by Payback.
• LO Fire+Grass Alakazam drops some speed and power to run 88 Def for Adamant Tyranitar Pursuit, and with that bulk it will also live a Heatran Payback, but you'll wall that coverage combo regardless so who cares.
• LO Fight+Ice Alakazam is complicated because it has a less clear cut "optimal" spread. The original inception point of that set is as a counter to Gliscor fat teams, and you need max SAtk for the guaranteed Gliscor OHKO. HP Ice doesn't drop speed IVs either, so part of the upside is getting to run max speed and tie / beat all opposing Alakazam. So its kinda got this headache where it can't do 88 Def and still retain its original purpose, and if LO Alakazam tries to split its EVs too sparsely between bulk, power, and speed then its beginning to look worse than Focus Sash Zam. Most people I've spoken to follow this same logic - frail Ice Alakazam, but bulky Fire ones - and thats why you EV for the OHKO with Payback. In the real world, you will occasionally run into Fight+Ice Alakazam with 88 Def / 168 SAtk / 252 Speed, because tanking a Pursuit is never bad and you're still strong enough to have >60% chance to kill Gliscor from full. I'm not saying either approach is optimal, there's just a range of options here.

The tl;dr here is that you occasionally get fucked by rare LO Fight+Ice Alakazam with bulk but in the grand scheme of things this is a tiny % of all Alakazam's you'll face, and you matchup well against all the rest. Opportunity cost here is big because Heatran always has 4MSS, but I think the combo of hitting Starmie/Latios/Zam hard in a single slot, considering how prevalent they all are currently, is occasionally worth it. Your mileage may vary.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
- Fire Blast
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power / Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Grass]

Not a new set but I think Scarf Heatran is an ok option currently, should probably see more usage. Specs is also fine.

Heatran @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
- Taunt
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Lava Plume
- coverage
- coverage

Taunt Heatran is pretty good, but generally seen with Magma so that you can "guarantee" Blissey/Clefable removal. My experience is that you actually get good enough (if not better) consistency by just using moves with better accuracy, even if the blob can swap out. With stacked special attackers, Blissey is probably fucked when it gets Fire Blasted and Taunted with some hazards up regardless.

---------

Is Heatran flying up the viability ranking? No. He's a beautiful, but flawed, juggernaut. I think we're just finding ways to make it more consistent, moving away from crazy high upside Magma Storm stuff and back to its 2010s-era staples - bulk, lefties, status.

 

[Brine]

Brinklespro bw post for the fans

Gonna highlight some sets i like/think should be used more. I came up with these by myself because they filled teambuilding holes or the like, but obviously not claiming credit for anything because most everything has been done before.

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast/U-turn
Extremely down on the breaker thunds that use focus blast right now, you will just miss and eat a tox or whatever, scarf is extremely strong into HO and sand when stuff like ferrothorn/grasses are broken down. Shoutout to my team in bwcop for talking me down from hp rock.


Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Reflect Type

Brinkymie, ferrothorn is a bastard, this completely flips the 1v1 if ferro tries to switch in and let you keep spikes off for your fatter team also lets you play a mindgame vs ttar in dire scenarios. Likely also has other applications that dont really come to mind right now.

Magnezone (Probopass???) @ Rocky helmet
Slapping helm on trappers lets you still do damage to the scarf steels (jirachi/scizor) that infest the meta right now when they would normally just u-turn to safety, scizor can superpower you so its not completely free, jirachi is a lot more useful in general though and this just stuffs anything it can click.
will not go in depth about probopass, other people used him before me so if they want they can post about it, it kind of also does what it says on the tin though so there really isn't a reason to even go in depth

Latios @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Calm Mind
- Roost

Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Calm Mind
- Healing Wish
or surfless lati@s in general, lati@s feel like they never rly need surf because your teammates can usually cover what it would hit quite safely, at +1 you roast ferrothorn which is peoples usual kneejerk switch when they see a calm mind go up because they assume it won't have hp fire.


Dragonite @ Yache Berry
Ability: Multiscale
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

HO slayer, been looking for ways to get around outrage lock and this is the best i could come up with, needs a trapper for ferrothorn.


Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Naughty Nature
- Earthquake
- X-Scissor
- Hidden Power [Ice] / rock slide
- Rapid Spin
Still like this set as a swiss army knife of sorts on rain, ice punishes the kneejerk lando switch trying to come reset rocks for free on spin.


Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin (possibly droppable if you pair another spinner? monai did sub 3 atk on rain before which i think is really cool, 4 attack also has potential on rain builds i feel)
- Surf
- Psychic
- Coverage move of your choice, fire tbolt ice beam etc
Dies quick so has to try and break quick, psychic owns a lot of common switchins kind of like an alakazam but trades the speed and immunity to passive for water stab (good in Ttar tier) spin and coverage


Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Protect
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Brinkytoad, keeps up well on starmie, doesnt have the longevity with refresh so should be played on faster paced teams, water and electric immunity also gives you a lot of room to play the game.


Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Outrage

good for revenge killing dragons in a pinch for slower pased teams, als just a no immunity 120 base power move off a 389 attack stat, many applications ingame (revenge kill without allowing a follow-up setup from a ground immune/resist etc etc)


Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Quiver Dance
Brinkyvolc, kind of specifically a stall fish but breaks stuff like hippoclef like nothing else.
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 445-524 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 382-450 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 387-458 (98.2 - 116.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 331-391 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Latios @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Reflect
- Roost

The first sighting of helmet lati@s was this set, its not necessarily great at what it does, finchinator stole this off me and did a version with max hp latias, which does it better tbh.


Ferrothorn @ Custap Berry / lum / chople
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Atk / 8 Def / 60 Spdef OR 252hp and atk adamant
Impish Nature
- Power Whip
- Explosion
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
Bulkier spread lives a specs keld sword on lead, chople is funny to bait stuff like thund and terrak, i used this in a bwcop where a thund focused (went left anyway, focus thund bad) and i killed it with explosion


Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Draco Meteor
Garchomp is a great rocker but the moveslot saved when putting rocks elsewhere is sooo nice, i love pairing this with lead double hazard ferrothorn. Standard is max spe but ive used this with both atk and spa invest which rips fat teams apart, bite me haters.

Im hungry, time to end this post, i was gonna do a whole shoutout section but i think the people i appreciate know it so no need for now.

I leave you with this

 

[Chomp29]

As usual while I do hate you brine, I also do like most of this stuff. Outrage scarf landorus is very good on so many levels. I personally like uturn eq rage and either super boom or rock slide and a jolly/ada nature. Rt mie is great until you run into jelly but very broken beyond that. Been thinking about starmie with hydro thunder RT spin and either lefties and enough spa for the goons or heavy ass hp and ebelt

The volc set I also like, but is hp ground really as good as fiery or fire blast or even psychic? Like 99% of the time hp ground either does nothing that fire move wouldn't or does stuff fire cant but cant actually kill the thing it needs to kill to preserve OH.

Its worth mentioning that overheat literally kills dnite and rolls to kill keldeo with rocks which is rather amusing.

The dnite set though is what interests me the most, I too believe thunder punch nite has a good use, but I haven't tried this coverage. My favorite so far has been ice thunder super with ebelt, either nature.

 

[leoperi]

As usual while I do hate you brine, I also do like most of this stuff. Outrage scarf landorus is very good on so many levels.

Thats [Outrageos] in so many levels . bw has already so many steels that can punish that even more so atp ur just using a worse scarf garchomp/flygon. Specially bc lando doesnt get stab on outrage so its not that strong

Its worth mentioning that overheat literally kills dnite and rolls to kill keldeo with rocks which is rather amusing.

Its also worth mentioning dnite can just espeed volc and depending on its hp it might just die to espeed aswell , keldeo can run scarf . Also wont overheat volc be forced to switch out next turn? Atp feels like ur giving free turns on a playstyle that is known for not wanting to do that.

The dnite set though is what interests me the most, I too believe thunder punch nite has a good use, but I haven't tried this coverage.

And that dnite set is so mid that you quite literraly lose to aboma/clefable heck even hp ice reun , slowbro a bunch of other things stuff just by dropping outrage you miss important kos that you shouldnt.

 

[Chomp29]

Thats [Outrageos] in so many levels . bw has already so many steels that can punish that even more so atp ur just using a worse scarf garchomp/flygon. Specially bc lando doesnt get stab on outrage so its not that strong

Its also worth mentioning dnite can just espeed volc and depending on its hp it might just die to espeed aswell , keldeo can run scarf . Also wont overheat volc be forced to switch out next turn? Atp feels like ur giving free turns on a playstyle that is known for not wanting to do that.

And that dnite set is so mid that you quite literraly lose to aboma/clefable heck even hp ice reun , slowbro a bunch of other things stuff just by dropping outrage you miss important kos that you shouldnt.

Hmm, I'm ngl these are pretty surface level takes, I'm trying to be nice when I say this but you have completely misunderstood the situations in question.

Let's take them in reverse order: It's HO vs HO, we both have rocks and I have now sacced mie for a spin and go volc. But you have dragonite right? Well tell me what happens if you then go dnite and espeed. Absolute best case for you is ur banded espeed, don't kill even after orb proc, die, and let a low hp volc switch out now to be hwished later. That's literally your best case here. Whereas if volca was psy or giga, your best case would be dnite living, and killing u either with 2 espeeds or raw outrage.

Next, how the hell do you lose to clef did you even read the set? It gets super powered and dies. Also yes, you've successfully identified that abomasnow does in fact check non-lefties dnite...but like ok? So what?

Your best point I will give a less spiteful response to but cmon man with the first two. Landorus last move in this situation is deciding between super, ice, rock move, boom, knock, etc. There are many pros and cons to each. The pros of outrage are plentiful and are as follows: Allows for a non spdef reducing nature which is generally useful but especially useful on rain teams where landorus actually makes for a pretty good volcarona check. Outrage 2hkos rotom wash with rocks and sand, a pretty relevant landorus answer. It also for example can let you surprise ohko a latios that would otherwise have the option to either recover or click specs draco or whatever and just eat the uturn. Situational but it happens. Outrage also is 100% accurate not 80% accurate like a certain move, and not only this, it is 20% stronger, giving you reach vs kyub and slightly chipped dnite. But far more important than any of this really is outrages ability to serve as a good midground click, as well as an excellent option to lock in endgame scenarios. You seem to be underestimating how much attack adamant landorus actually has. If we wanted to make parallels to garchomp, a lando rage is actually stronger than an adamant scarf chomp dual chop. Is this obscene power? No but its more than enough power to clean endgames and accurately take down dragons/rotom etc. You never lock rage unless it's a good idea, and as it turns out, it's rather frequently a good idea.

 

[BLJ mario]

would like to throw my hat in the ring abt some cool sets ive used recently, since everyone is talking abt that.

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
it may be a bit weird not having ice beam on this poli as it hits d nite tios all that jazz, but truth is rain boosted hydros kinda make up for that and having surf as a reliable option to secure kos on volc and chipped rotom sciz and stuff is super nice. works great with spikes chip, you own hippo clef expecting a regular poli and i have found it to be very good at stopping a lot of ho mons if you pair it with like a scizor or offensive ferro, volc cant set up on it, starmie gets ohkoed on the swap by a hydro. hp grass is for seis since rain can be hard pressed to find stuff that threatens it out other than ferro and lati which can be expolited by most sand teams.


Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 64 HP / 208 SpA / 136 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Agility
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
sitrus agility thundy is a cool tech ive been using for a while on my rain teams, it lives 2 tios dracos back to back and 2 zam hp ices from sash. it puts in work vs a lot of psyspam teams and opposing rain. without rocks you also win thund ditto.


Mariachi (Jirachi) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Iron Head
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Icy Wind
- Thunder
my buddy ayman turned me onto this set recently, its kinda tough to fit but its right at home on ground weak spinless teams that appreciate 4a rachi being able to break through lando ferro chomp and drill. the rlly cool thing abt this rachi is that you can lead it vs hos with chomp and force chomp to rock without chipping anything or chip rachi air balloon without setting rocks and icy wind p much guarantees a positive mu vs most things on ho trying to swap into it outside of conk and volc (which you can also para with thunder since most volcs are running orb). unlike shuca, you also float over spikes, which means as long as balloon isnt broken, you will still be able to check grounds after spikes, which can shut down a lot of those teams. a perfect example of where you could fit this set is on the zaaya chomp rotom team sample, which can find itself shut down by groundspam teams that overwhelm lando. this set can flip mus vs scarf drill and it abuses chipped ferro trying to spike.

 

[Cow]

I think one overlooked aspect of the metagame right now is how strong Protect is. Now obviously that does sound pretty ludicrous, Protect is always a good move but moreso now. A lot of Choice Item's flying around the metagame at the moment. Choice Scarfed Excadrill, Jirachi, Landorus and Keldeo most notably popping up as good offence and Alakazam counter play, I think now more than ever Protect should be valued on more Pokemon that it currently is.

Excadrill probably the most noteworthy user of Protect that we haven't really seen enough of recently. With the downtick of full blown Stall's looking to drag out games, the need for Sword Dance on Excadrill is a lot lower than it was as of recently and being able to Protect and scout a choice item in the current metagame is extremely valuable in the pace of this metagame. Substitute can also be used to similar results here with the added benefit of destroying SkarmJelli offences which are admittedly less prevalent in the metagame at the moment, but losing the ability to scout for Choice Scarf Landorus without being behind the sub.

Another contender for this which peng has previously mentioned is Heatran, with the added perks of being able to disrupt common Landorus Rotom cores and PP stall Rotom out, while also checking a majority of the "scary" guys that are running around at the moment.

Gliscor the final boss of Protect is probably due an uptick at some point, another very prominent Protect user with similar perks to Heatran of disrupting the flow of the game vs Landorus Rotom cores and really forces the opponent to make some hard clicks. In general, its pretty tough to put pressure on a well played Gliscor and with the amount of Choice Scarf running around the mon can feel unkillable at points, and can check the FireGrass Alakazam's we are seeing a huge amount of to a degree.

I think some more niche stuff could be explored as well. Protect Terrakion an ancient set is probably worth it on about 1/100 teams but with a huge amount of Scarf Jirachi and the structures you see it on getting the free Protect to scout U-Turn will most likely lead to a free kill. Thundurus, another old Protect user probably not worth it at all at the moment with how a majority of the Latios we are seeing at the moment being colbur, and the need to scout for a Choice lock is not worth it, similar to Keldeo though Keldeo has more uses than Thundurus with Protect. Amoonguss probably always requires Magnezone to pull off a Protect set and even then that feels like a massive momentum sink and most certainly not worth it.

 

[Chomp29]

would like to throw my hat in the ring abt some cool sets ive used recently, since everyone is talking abt that.

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
it may be a bit weird not having ice beam on this poli as it hits d nite tios all that jazz, but truth is rain boosted hydros kinda make up for that and having surf as a reliable option to secure kos on volc and chipped rotom sciz and stuff is super nice. works great with spikes chip, you own hippo clef expecting a regular poli and i have found it to be very good at stopping a lot of ho mons if you pair it with like a scizor or offensive ferro, volc cant set up on it, starmie gets ohkoed on the swap by a hydro. hp grass is for seis since rain can be hard pressed to find stuff that threatens it out other than ferro and lati which can be expolited by most sand teams.


Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 64 HP / 208 SpA / 136 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Agility
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
sitrus agility thundy is a cool tech ive been using for a while on my rain teams, it lives 2 tios dracos back to back and 2 zam hp ices from sash. it puts in work vs a lot of psyspam teams and opposing rain. without rocks you also win thund ditto.


Mariachi (Jirachi) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Iron Head
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Icy Wind
- Thunder
my buddy ayman turned me onto this set recently, its kinda tough to fit but its right at home on ground weak spinless teams that appreciate 4a rachi being able to break through lando ferro chomp and drill. the rlly cool thing abt this rachi is that you can lead it vs hos with chomp and force chomp to rock without chipping anything or chip rachi air balloon without setting rocks and icy wind p much guarantees a positive mu vs most things on ho trying to swap into it outside of conk and volc (which you can also para with thunder since most volcs are running orb). unlike shuca, you also float over spikes, which means as long as balloon isnt broken, you will still be able to check grounds after spikes, which can shut down a lot of those teams. a perfect example of where you could fit this set is on the zaaya chomp rotom team sample, which can find itself shut down by groundspam teams that overwhelm lando. this set can flip mus vs scarf drill and it abuses chipped ferro trying to spike.

These are solid indeed. Personally on specs toed I do do think max speed is worth it if ur already going fast because it makes the dragmag matchup so much more tolerable, and similarly allows a game changing 5050 vs breloom. That said tho I think just bulky specs is also quite good, and ice beam less is absolutely the way to go. Sitrus thunsy is clearly the best thundy imo I also agree, but this spread is probably wrong since it will frequently die to both latios and opposing thundy.

Baloon 4a rachi is quite good, its always hard to choose between baloon and shuca, but I do think baloon does have a slight edge.