OU BW OU Hub

[Silexius]

Are Bisharp and Sharpedo viable options on a rain team to counter bulky sand? (not both on the same team btw)

 

[Gamer1234556]

Are Bisharp and Sharpedo viable options on a rain team to counter bulky sand? (not both on the same team btw)

Sharpedo is actually a pretty decent mon in Rain, but it's really hard to build around. Rewer used it in the Invitational fwiw.

As for Bisharp, it's a mon that doesn't really have good synergy in Rain, so it's not seen often. I suppose it could be decent against some Sand Teams since it's a SDer that actually exploits Lando-T, but I haven't really seen it be put to good use.

 

[Rewer]

I need to experiment more with Bisharp, but the most success with it was sub sd @ leftovers, max hp max attack adamant. Sub sd sucker lowkick.
Sub on ferrothorn, sd, gg. If they don't have ferrothorn you are probably useless, but hey +2 bisharp with that 80 bp sucker goes hard.
Pursuit>sub can be more useful but then why aren't you using scizor lol.
Maybe max attack max speed bisharp with sd nightslash lowkick sucker can be good, but idk night slash is quite weak. I think that set needs @ life orb!

Sharpedo is okay. Base 120 atk + life orb is nothing to laugh at, plus base 95 speed isn't so bad.
Use zenheadbutt crunch waterfall aquajet @ lifeorb, max attack max speed adamant, you need all of these moves and it's the only good set.
Maybe ice beam or some cheese hidden power can be okay but walled by keldeo is bad.
Don't use protect or +spe nature that really blows. You NEED the extra power it is so weak without it.
Use it in a very aggressive team that's gonna weaken its checks, the only use of sharpedo is to clean house when everything is low.

 

[Silexius]

Sharpedo is actually a pretty decent mon in Rain, but it's really hard to build around. Rewer used it in the Invitational fwiw.

As for Bisharp, it's a mon that doesn't really have good synergy in Rain, so it's not seen often. I suppose it could be decent against some Sand Teams since it's a SDer that actually exploits Lando-T, but I haven't really seen it be put to good use.

Sorry which match was this, I don't remember seeing it in monai's invitational

 

[LuckOverSkill]

Sorry which match was this, I don't remember seeing it in monai's invitational

Game 2 of Rewer vs Sage in Round 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-715191

 

[peng]

| 27 | Clefable | 23 | 7.32%

With the conclusion of Invitational (and classic) I think its time to properly discuss this mon, along with a bit of history of how we got to this point. The uptick of support Clefable this year marks probably the biggest shift in a single Pokemon's usage I can recall in recent memory, to the extent that Clef would be OU ranked if modern BW was based on tournament usage. In Invitational, Clefable saw higher usage than Terrakion, Heatran, Kyurem-B, and even Breloom, which was unthinkable a year ago.

Clef is doing basically the same thing in BW that it does in DPP, just with more focus on specially defensive (due to Latios, bulky waters having Rain-backed STABs, and the power creep of physical attackers meaning they mostly beat you anyway). The go-to set is:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 184 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Knock Off / Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled

EVs outspeed support Tyranitar and survives 1 Keldeo Secret Sword, or 2x Heatran Magma Storms.

Clefable is basically just micro-Blissey that deals with residual damage better, meaning you need to recover less and can feasibly run without Rapid Spin support. In a tier dominated by Sandstorm, Spikes, and Scald, thats a huge upside. In a pinch, Clefable is also able to take on many variants of Latios and with Thunder Wave + Seismic Toss can reliably 1v1 a huge amount of the BW roster by just fishing for paralysis and chipping through. Most teams won't have many ways of breaking Clefable - often reliant on something like Excadrill or Keldeo - so the best Clefable set is Knock Off with Spikes support to put these on a timer, but practically this set can be difficult to fit outside of Hippowdon teams.

Pokemon that Clefable can 1v1 - (by tour usage)

along with others, depening on set.
Basically its just straight-up walling + beating most of the other defensive Pokemon in the tier, is a pain to swap into with Knock + Thunder Wave, is an amazing enabler for late-game mons like Reuniclus, and in a pinch can patch-up weaknesses to some of the tier's super strong special attackers like Latios and Alakazam.

Phase I - experimentation
Clefable has always seen 1-2 uses a tournament every year, but generally with cute-but-quite-bad Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, or Life Orb sets and always failing to gain any significant attention or traction. Last summer, support Clefable became a bit of a flavour-of-the-month Pokemon on the BW Discord server, with several users all trying it out and experimenting where it could fit. There were lots of really bad "triple-Psy"-style teams with Tyranitar / Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Clefable / Latios / Alakazam, where users tried to like-for-like swap out Reuniclus, but the best iterations we came across were 1) Clefable + Reuniclus teams 2) SR Clefable teams that enabled non-SR sets on Grounds like Landorus-T and 3) Clefable Hails This triggered a couple of BW OU Hub posts (1 and 2) along with a classic "no clefable is the only reason I play this tier, now I may as well go back to ADV" quote from Monai. BW Discord was renamed and #clefnation was born. This dense period of community discussion and experimentation with Clefable was the starting point for its rise.

Phase II - the first actual competent teams
It took a few months for Clefable to transition from "use it because its theoretically good" to "actual best option on successful teams". Towards the end of 2022 and start of 2023, we saw proper Clefable usage both on high level ladder and sneaking into SPL courtesy of myself, eden, dice, and Jisoo.

Some of the relevant teams from this period:

Oct-Dec 2022 by peng (analysis here)
Obviously blowing my own horn here slightly, but this is the earliest iteration of Clefable + Reuniclus, though that concept has been optimised a lot further since then. The idea is supporting Reuniclus with Thunder Wave ClefableThunder Wave Colbur Lati@s and Spikes. Clefable ran Stealth Rock and therefore progress vs Excadrill was driven by Rocky Helmet Skarmory, rather than Knock Off. I didn't have the full confidence or vision to go superman-style on this and drop spin altogether, as a second steel to go alongside Skarmory felt necessary but all of them bar Excadrill involved Spikes weakness, Reuniclus weakness, or Scizor weakness. Clefable also gives up a free turn to Lum Cloyster and Lum Volcarona, which this team didn't match-up too well into. As we'll come to, some smart people have fixed all of these issues in the recent Clefable teams.

Jan 2023 by dice (analysis here)
Clefable had been seen in SPL in years prior but without any real success, like I said using some more gimmicky sets. However, this team by dice used vs Sensei Axew in SPL marks the first proper use of modern Clefable in a major tournament. Here, Stealth Rock Clefable frees up Landorus-T to run an offensive Smack Down set, one of the best examples of SR Clefable enabling set diversity on other Pokemon. Lati@s quickly becomes standardised as Clefable's best partner, as the two of them work together to shut down Rain - Clefable completely nullifying the defensive core of Poli/Ferro/Tentacruel and walling Scarf Latios, then your own Lati@s tanking their Keldeo and Thundurus-T.

Jan 2023 by dice (example import)
Knock Off + Thunder Wave had been recognised as probably Clefable's best set, but until this point had been hard to fit. Clefable so often was running Stealth Rock for needed role compression, that it was tough to visualise teams that enabled Clefable to run Knock Off to begin with. Dice and eden pioneered Hippowdon + Knock Clefable, with this particular version from dice seeing multiple uses in SPL in 2023, although he himself would admit it is a bit clunky. Regardless, the first true application of Knock Clefable in BW OU and yet more evidence in favour of Skarmory + Clefable + Lati@s as the de facto Clef core. Jisoo piloted this to success in SPL and its seen sporadic usage since.

Phase III - optimisation
Summer 2023 by Feaniix (example import)
The teams earlier were all competent Clefable builds but felt unoptimised. It was clear that Skarmory + Clefable + Lati@s was a super strong defensive backbone, but it wanted a late-game win condition and ideally wanted Clefable to keep Knock Off, therefore finding Stealth Rock elsewhere. Feaniix's build above fixes the flaws of the earlier teams elegantly, by finding a midground that retains the late-game wincondition of Reuniclus, whilst using Rocks Hippowdon to justify Knock Off Clefable, as well as still being able to go spinless by smartly choosing Bronzong as the secondary steel. Bronzong + Skarmory looks redundant, but it allows the team to have both a physically defensive and a specially defensive steel together which is invaluable, as well as enabling Skarmory to run tech items such as Shed Shell or Mail. The result is by far the most passive of all the Clefable builds so far, with very little offensive outlet and relying almost entirely on gradually draining the opponents resources through Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Sandstorm, entry hazards, and a late-game Reuniclus option. However, this is the the most solid Clefable build by a considerable margin, and unsurprisingly adopted by other top players including Finchinator and SoulWind.

Where next
Its tough to know if Clefable has reached its peak, but the team by Feaniix feels like an almost perfect version of the Clefable + Reuniclus concept. Some ideas for Clefable I think next could be:

Knock Off Clefable + SubCM Latias, maybe on dual lati
Much like Knock Clefable supporting Reuniclus, it also has the potential to support CM Latias in the same way. CM Latias' main issue is it basically never breaks Excadrill, which is probably the hardest Pokemon in the entire tier to wear down. Clefable is great at forcing in Excadrill to cripple with Knock and therefore enable Latias. CM Latias somewhat role compresses the Colbur Lati + Reuniclus slots in Feaniix's team into one, giving you a free 6th slot, so there may be some experimentation here. A build that I keep trying to make work is Tyranitar / TSpike Forretress / Landorus-T / Clefable / SubCM Latias / filler (probably Jellicent or Heatran).

Clefable Hail
I think the synergy of this is obvious but its hard to make work. My personal team with this is Aboma / Gliscor / Forretress / Clefable / colbur Latios / Kyurem(-B) which feels like a starting point with a basically hail immune defensive spine which messes up a lot of the tier's steels, then rounded out with Latios and scarf Kyurem. Even fatter variations of this could work, but its possible that since Abomasnow needs spin anyway then you might as well use Blissey and run variations of ABR's hail instead.


Clefable set diversity
I feel like we've worked out that Knock Clefable is by far the most irritating, but it does have a deep movepool that could enable some unique builds. Ice Beam has seen some usage to beat Gliscor, lure Landorus-T, and punish Lum Dragonite, and watashi has shown off Flamethrower for Ferrothorn / Scizor / Excadrill also. Encore and Wish may have untapped potential too

 

[Monai]

Everything hurts

 

[hoyesdomingo]

Everything hurts

not to clefable

 

[Monai]

This thread seems to be getting back on track so I'll share some interesting sets of common pokemon that eden and I tried (not gonna try and claim anything in a meta as old as this) continuing with the mon 4lom was talking about above

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 64 SpA / 88 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

This may not seem that revolutionary at first glance and well it isn't but can be a good example of how just by moving some evs around you can gain some flexibility while still keeping the core traits.

The main reason eden and I tried this was to get was to out speed lo ada sciz to burn or finish it off on a team that was a little weak to it and to give rotom more pressure vs thundy-t. As you can see in the calcs below this set still can be used to check the same thing just requires you to be a bit more delicate and in regards to keld rotom shouldn't be your only check regardless.

Unfortunately this set misses out on the guaranteed thundy ohko but being able to kill after rocks/substitute is still valuable since as we all know thundy can tear open a team quickly. The other benefits of running modest which I didn't realize at the time are being able to always break the niche subtect trans sub all of the time and being able to surprise a cheeky glisc stay in to potentially ohko it depending on their set.

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Rotom-Wash in Rain: 127-150 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Rotom-Wash: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Rotom-Wash: 225-270 (74.2 - 89.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Never-Melt Ice Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Rotom-Wash: 84-100 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
48+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunder vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Rotom-Wash: 177-208 (58.4 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

64+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 104 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian in Rain: 283-334 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
64+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 8 HP / 100 SpD Heatran: 81-96 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
64+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 124 SpD Gliscor: 342-404 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
64+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 272-324 (77.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Some other sets you could try are:
248 HP / 20 Def / 220 SpA / 20 SpD modest to get the ohko on thundy in rain and still retain the basic defensive capacities while sacrificing pretty much all your spdef
248 HP / 44 Def / 88 SpD / 128 Spe bold which allows you to out speed loom and potentially get a burn on it and live a banded bullet seed to limit how much damage it can do to your team





Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 148 SpD / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / Rock Slide

Im sure most of us have seen spdef lando running around in ss and wondered if it could work in bw, well this was my attempt. This set could be accused of doing to much at once which is honestly fair but its hilarious seeing a lando live a thundy/lati/zam/volc hit. I truely believe this could be made better. I just dumped a bunch of calcs so you could see whats potentially possible.

Hp ice still does decent damage vs lando chomp dnite being able to 2hko all (need sand up for dnite) but stone edge could also be an option as well rock slide if you are really worried about missing vs volc.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.7 - 49%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Sand Force Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Landorus-Therian in Sand: 126-148 (33 - 38.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
48+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Landorus-Therian: 320-380 (83.9 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Landorus-Therian: 320-380 (83.9 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Landorus-Therian: 316-372 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Landorus-Therian: 232-274 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Landorus-Therian: 306-361 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 444-524 (122.9 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 144 Def Thundurus-Therian: 222-262 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 252-300 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 220-260 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-112 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO


Obviously these shouldn't replace the standard sets which are the standard for a reason but you should be open to making small adjustments similar to these sets when building to add another dimension to your teams.

Cheers

I wasn't a believer at first, but after trying out a max HP max SpDef Landot in probably ~100 games, I've become a huge fan. In my opinion, the best part is that it retains regular Landot's ability to blanket check physical attackers like Dnite, Scizor, and Terrak, but you become happy to eat random special attacks as well.

Why it's good:

252 SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 264-312 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 190-225 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 176-208 (46 - 54.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 292-344 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Jirachi Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 168-200 (43.9 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are calcs that you'd expect from Gliscor not Landot, being unafraid to slow U-turn or trade down comes up super frequently and a second Volcarona check never hurts. Way better base stats and Intimidate helps differentiate it from Gliscor even further, letting you be way more threatening early game.

How it's worse:

Compared to regular Landot, you struggle way more into Exca, Loom, and Tran, which you would otherwise outspeed and reliably check. The lack of speed isn't as relevant as I expected while testing it, but randomly being slower than Jellicent and Rotom-W has made playing around them harder. The other obvious analog is Gliscor, but most SpDef Landot teams will play at a faster pace to compensate, whereas Gliscor is superior if it ever needs to take 3+ big attacks.

What I pair it with:

Exca and Tran answers/lures were important when building. Keldeo was an extremely good partner because of how well it fit on more aggro sands as well as SpDef Landot's ability to potentially lure Latios and Zam. Jirachi has also been a really solid partner for its ability to either para Exca/Tran or lure and KO them. I don't really want to call Latios a good partner specifically, because it's broken, but the Speed and threat into rain was super big.

 

[Monai]

| 27 | Clefable | 23 | 7.32%

With the conclusion of Invitational (and classic) I think its time to properly discuss this mon, along with a bit of history of how we got to this point. The uptick of support Clefable this year marks probably the biggest shift in a single Pokemon's usage I can recall in recent memory, to the extent that Clef would be OU ranked if modern BW was based on tournament usage. In Invitational, Clefable saw higher usage than Terrakion, Heatran, Kyurem-B, and even Breloom, which was unthinkable a year ago.

Clef is doing basically the same thing in BW that it does in DPP, just with more focus on specially defensive (due to Latios, bulky waters having Rain-backed STABs, and the power creep of physical attackers meaning they mostly beat you anyway). The go-to set is:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 188 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Knock Off / Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled

EVs outspeed support Tyranitar and survives 1 Keldeo Secret Sword, or 2x Heatran Magma Storms.

Clefable is basically just micro-Blissey that deals with residual damage better, meaning you need to recover less and can feasibly run without Rapid Spin support. In a tier dominated by Sandstorm, Spikes, and Scald, thats a huge upside. In a pinch, Clefable is also able to take on many variants of Latios and with Thunder Wave + Seismic Toss can reliably 1v1 a huge amount of the BW roster by just fishing for paralysis and chipping through. Most teams won't have many ways of breaking Clefable - often reliant on something like Excadrill or Keldeo - so the best Clefable set is Knock Off with Spikes support to put these on a timer, but practically this set can be difficult to fit outside of Hippowdon teams.

Pokemon that Clefable can 1v1 - (by tour usage)

along with others, depening on set.
Basically its just straight-up walling + beating most of the other defensive Pokemon in the tier, is a pain to swap into with Knock + Thunder Wave, is an amazing enabler for late-game mons like Reuniclus, and in a pinch can patch-up weaknesses to some of the tier's super strong special attackers like Latios and Alakazam.

Phase I - experimentation
Clefable has always seen 1-2 uses a tournament every year, but generally with cute-but-quite-bad Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, or Life Orb sets and always failing to gain any significant attention or traction. Last summer, support Clefable became a bit of a flavour-of-the-month Pokemon on the BW Discord server, with several users all trying it out and experimenting where it could fit. There were lots of really bad "triple-Psy"-style teams with Tyranitar / Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Clefable / Latios / Alakazam, where users tried to like-for-like swap out Reuniclus, but the best iterations we came across were 1) Clefable + Reuniclus teams 2) SR Clefable teams that enabled non-SR sets on Grounds like Landorus-T and 3) Clefable Hails This triggered a couple of BW OU Hub posts (1 and 2) along with a classic "no clefable is the only reason I play this tier, now I may as well go back to ADV" quote from Monai. BW Discord was renamed and #clefnation was born. This dense period of community discussion and experimentation with Clefable was the starting point for its rise.

Phase II - the first actual competent teams
It took a few months for Clefable to transition from "use it because its theoretically good" to "actual best option on successful teams". Towards the end of 2022 and start of 2023, we saw proper Clefable usage both on high level ladder and sneaking into SPL courtesy of myself, eden, dice, and Jisoo.

Some of the relevant teams from this period:

Oct-Dec 2022 by peng (analysis here)
Obviously blowing my own horn here slightly, but this is the earliest iteration of Clefable + Reuniclus, though that concept has been optimised a lot further since then. The idea is supporting Reuniclus with Thunder Wave ClefableThunder Wave Colbur Lati@s and Spikes. Clefable ran Stealth Rock and therefore progress vs Excadrill was driven by Rocky Helmet Skarmory, rather than Knock Off. I didn't have the full confidence or vision to go superman-style on this and drop spin altogether, as a second steel to go alongside Skarmory felt necessary but all of them bar Excadrill involved Spikes weakness, Reuniclus weakness, or Scizor weakness. Clefable also gives up a free turn to Lum Cloyster and Lum Volcarona, which this team didn't match-up too well into. As we'll come to, some smart people have fixed all of these issues in the recent Clefable teams.

Jan 2023 by dice (analysis here)
Clefable had been seen in SPL in years prior but without any real success, like I said using some more gimmicky sets. However, this team by dice used vs Sensei Axew in SPL marks the first proper use of modern Clefable in a major tournament. Here, Stealth Rock Clefable frees up Landorus-T to run an offensive Smack Down set, one of the best examples of SR Clefable enabling set diversity on other Pokemon. Lati@s quickly becomes standardised as Clefable's best partner, as the two of them work together to shut down Rain - Clefable completely nullifying the defensive core of Poli/Ferro/Tentacruel and walling Scarf Latios, then your own Lati@s tanking their Keldeo and Thundurus-T.

Jan 2023 by dice (example import)
Knock Off + Thunder Wave had been recognised as probably Clefable's best set, but until this point had been hard to fit. Clefable so often was running Stealth Rock for needed role compression, that it was tough to visualise teams that enabled Clefable to run Knock Off to begin with. Dice and eden pioneered Hippowdon + Knock Clefable, with this particular version from dice seeing multiple uses in SPL in 2023, although he himself would admit it is a bit clunky. Regardless, the first true application of Knock Clefable in BW OU and yet more evidence in favour of Skarmory + Clefable + Lati@s as the de facto Clef core. Jisoo piloted this to success in SPL and its seen sporadic usage since.

Phase III - optimisation
Summer 2023 by Feaniix (example import)
The teams earlier were all competent Clefable builds but felt unoptimised. It was clear that Skarmory + Clefable + Lati@s was a super strong defensive backbone, but it wanted a late-game win condition and ideally wanted Clefable to keep Knock Off, therefore finding Stealth Rock elsewhere. Feaniix's build above fixes the flaws of the earlier teams elegantly, by finding a midground that retains the late-game wincondition of Reuniclus, whilst using Rocks Hippowdon to justify Knock Off Clefable, as well as still being able to go spinless by smartly choosing Bronzong as the secondary steel. Bronzong + Skarmory looks redundant, but it allows the team to have both a physically defensive and a specially defensive steel together which is invaluable, as well as enabling Skarmory to run tech items such as Shed Shell or Mail. The result is by far the most passive of all the Clefable builds so far, with very little offensive outlet and relying almost entirely on gradually draining the opponents resources through Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Sandstorm, entry hazards, and a late-game Reuniclus option. However, this is the the most solid Clefable build by a considerable margin, and unsurprisingly adopted by other top players including Finchinator and SoulWind.

Where next
Its tough to know if Clefable has reached its peak, but the team by Feaniix feels like an almost perfect version of the Clefable + Reuniclus concept. Some ideas for Clefable I think next could be:

Knock Off Clefable + SubCM Latias, maybe on dual lati
Much like Knock Clefable supporting Reuniclus, it also has the potential to support CM Latias in the same way. CM Latias' main issue is it basically never breaks Excadrill, which is probably the hardest Pokemon in the entire tier to wear down. Clefable is great at forcing in Excadrill to cripple with Knock and therefore enable Latias. CM Latias somewhat role compresses the Colbur Lati + Reuniclus slots in Feaniix's team into one, giving you a free 6th slot, so there may be some experimentation here. A build that I keep trying to make work is Tyranitar / TSpike Forretress / Landorus-T / Clefable / SubCM Latias / filler (probably Jellicent or Heatran).

Clefable Hail
I think the synergy of this is obvious but its hard to make work. My personal team with this is Aboma / Gliscor / Forretress / Clefable / colbur Latios / Kyurem(-B) which feels like a starting point with a basically hail immune defensive spine which messes up a lot of the tier's steels, then rounded out with Latios and scarf Kyurem. Even fatter variations of this could work, but its possible that since Abomasnow needs spin anyway then you might as well use Blissey and run variations of ABR's hail instead.


Clefable set diversity
I feel like we've worked out that Knock Clefable is by far the most irritating, but it does have a deep movepool that could enable some unique builds. Ice Beam has seen some usage to beat Gliscor, lure Landorus-T, and punish Lum Dragonite, and watashi has shown off Flamethrower for Ferrothorn / Scizor / Excadrill also. Encore and Wish may have untapped potential too

You cut off the winrate btw :)

 

[cyberacc]

With input and interest coming back in full swing for "what do we do with BW as a tier" thanks to threads like this one I feel I'd toss in my bone
on BW OU as it stands right now and what I would want going forward plus some stray opinions on solutions proposed in the recent discussions.
The discussion as of recently is supposed to be a clean slate for us to air grievances; I will try and do so myself.
Do take my input with a massive pinch of salt; I am a tacid observer of BW OU that plays the ladder from time to time up to a high elo bracket because its' what I grew up on. I spectate finals and specific players that interest me and like to discuss BW OU. This is not going to come from a player with tournament experience.



BW to me is a functional if flawed metagame that plays well and builds terribly.

The biggest gripe with BW is not how the tier actively works; I've played it on and off for so long that being faced with the insurmountable odds and frayed nerves you need to navigate a game off of preview is what makes it fun to me. I think that is a part of the" identity" of BW and what distinguishes it as an old gen OU. The margin of error is razor thin and I like that stress; I see rain off of preview as sand I know I am favored but if I give them crucial breathing room they can wipe me immediately without question. If I am a sun stall team and I face a sand team I am ubiquitously unfavored but with the right positioning and if they are giving me too much breathing room in the match up I know I can force a win, off of two turns or less. This also means I can lose a game off of incredibly few mistakes. Its' got the fastest median and average turn progression of any OU and I think its' always going to be a part of the identity of BW. No matter what we do with the tier. And I find that a good thing.

The issue with BW is that this fast paced, high octane "every little thing I do matters or else I am going to immediately lose the game" aspect carries over horribly into the builder. No other tier of OU has this many "has to"s as BW: You need a plan for HO, you need to have a plan for rain, you need to have a plan for sand, you need a plan for Latios, you need to do this for Gliscor midgames, you need to do this line of play if Cloyster drops in, you need something to make sure Reun does not pop off at random, you need something to chase the Thunderus Therian out in case it came in and make sure it can't come in if at all to begin with...

There's aggressive metagames where this is fine, the standard even (DPP LC comes to mind from my limited experience) but this happening to a generation already riddled with dire propositions that can only be navigated by heavily outplaying someone and that is just too much for a lot of people to even consider playing let alone experimenting with. And its becoming a massive detriment to my enjoyment of the game as a spectator, a player and a builder. Every ban that can alleviate the builder pressure in some way and maintain that core crux, that fun part, of BW is a good one to me. Its' why I was favoring a ban for Cloyster, or Volcarona coming off of the discussion that happened in this thread by Finch. I stress the importance of the "or" there; Volcarona adds pressure on psychic-reliant sand teams that are built to win the war of attrition with Magic Guard stealth rock and Spikes. Cloyster in particular hard pressures sands that are reliant on Reuniclus to pop off. And I absolutely loathed playing that period where ABR sand was the norm on ladder and in tour play, it was not fun or enticing or even that competitive in my eyes. I barf out spikes and whatever Psychic nails the focus chain twice wins the game. That isn't what I play BW for.

A big thing that I would also stress is that Rona or Cloyster are not unique in this department in alleviating builder pressure. If the issue presented itself as the crux of "We need to ban Latios, Thunderus, Keldeo, Reuniclus" as some blanket problem I would have voted ban on that too. Any ban presented in BW OU as the tier stands right now helps make the current iteration of BW OU better, because it alleviates the builder strain. I fully believe that any solution or ban you propose this point onward will help make the tier better.

I also think that BKCs idea of fixing the tier is something I don't really agree with if at all. To quote the ban list;

"Ban Drizzle
Ban Latios + Keldeo + Thundurus-Therian - this is something that was seriously considered among several active BW council members, including yourself, and then it sadly disappeared
Ban Reuniclus
Ban Scald "

And I feel privy to give my thoughts on it.

Ban Drizzle: Its' so ingrained in how I play BW and engage with the tier that I seriously see no reason in removing it. We can balance BW with the permaweathers in mind and I don't really want or seek any alternative to it. If you want to play BW without Drizzle go ahead, its' just not for me. And I do doubt that there's a vested majority interest from the current BW playerbase in banning the ability.
Ban Latios + Keldeo + Thundurus-Therian: All three getting banned at once feels like it gives way too much room way too quickly for a bunch of aggrevating stuff I already feel is on the precipice of being bonkers (Rakka and Garchomp being the two proprietary outliers) that I wouldn't really mess with all three going at once. If you'd want to rip out any of the three ubiquitous brokens go ahead after Cloyster/Rona/Anything else leaves the tier by all means do so, but don't do all of them at once.
Ban Reuniclus: I do not struggle with this mon unless I actively build something that I know will lose to it. Its' incredibly asinine depending on match up (rain stall lol, enemy sand it potentially lols the nanosecond tar goes below a single digit of damage) but it has 4mss its' privy to dying when you can't afford it to, if the right sweeper gets in as it has to heal its a set up opportunity in and of itself its bulk is okay not obscene.... I don't really get why its' always up on the table. Its' like 5th in priority to me. I am used to the glob. If someone showed me more replays in the current format of Reun being absurd I'd buy it being a cause for concern and want it banned.
Ban Scald: Scald is a fundamentally stacked move but the actual scald fishers available in any given OU get less opportunities per game to fish it the more the tier sits around and just.. Exists for a while. 12% chip is obscene but balanced out by how little in the dex gives you room to actually scald fish. Rain mirrors looking silly and coming down to that Cruel clicking scald twice on the switch improves exponentially with more bans being put in place. I am also used to that variance dance of scald to the point where I don't really struggle with it in, like. Any gen. I can sympathize with the complaints though and if a survey concludes its' broken to the qualified playerbase I forfeit my stance.

And LuckOverSkill brought this up in the recent thread but I'll give my opinion of it as well.
Reslate the whole tier: Fun on paper but feels completely and wholly unrealistic. Who is going to be there when the old walls are broken down and a new tier forms? I will be blunt and say that I will not be there to make that a reality. I don't really share the optimism that it will be better than what we have right now.
I dislike uprooting everything and starting over because what we have right now I find neat but needs surgeon cutting, not some complete axing of how BW is with all the history behind it. That time has come and gone and no amount of vicious bickering will make that change happen to me without causing a vast majority of the current playerbase to leave. And I'd really not want that since the BW community as is is a pretty fun one to build + play teams with and versus.

So thats' that really. This post was originally meant to go into Policy Review but due to some simple facts that, a) I am a legitimate nobody in this race and b) its' really not that fitting for the conversation going on at large, I decided against it after reading the draft. So I reworked it and posted it in here instead.

 

[Finchinator]

Probably going to SV in SPL, so wanted to share some sets from BW tours this past year like Classic, Invitational, Circuit, etc.


Rotom-Wash @ Eject Button
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / XX Spe
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Spread can be whatever depending on the team (same with the undercreep), but the premise is to get the free pivot on a U-turn or weaker, resisted attack to bring in a frail, but strong, teammate. On more aggressive teams (even with Sand) that play far more bulky-O than balance, this can be very cool with a Choice Specs Latios, Swords Dance Excadrill, Terrakion, etc. Here is an example of a team I have had success with.


Scizor @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Atk / 8 Def / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Pursuit
- U-turn

This is a personal favorite on Rain teams. It helps a lot with the Alakazam/Latios/Reuniclus match-up. Regarding Reuniclus, it can Bug Bite when they anticipate Choice Scarf and being locked into a move, only able to push 55% with U-turn, and so on -- that Scizor actually sucks into Reuniclus honestly. Regarding Alakazam/Latios, you are able to stomach two hits easier and assure the Pursuit. It is not perfect depending upon the set they are using, the current weather, and so on, but you can position yourself accordingly. I also like Sitrus for things like chipped Cloyster or being a Tyranitar switch-in a few times over. Also, on specific Rains, I like pairing it with Protect Keldeo or Protect Thundurus-T as they show what a choiced Latios can opt to go for and sometimes they switch, predicting Pursuit Scizor, which gives you another free turn and multiple rounds of Leftovers. Here is an example of a team I have had success with.


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Knock Off
- Soft-Boiled
- Amnesia

This Clefable can defeat any Volcarona on HO that does not get a crit assuming it is not Modest Fire Blast and getting a very high roll (and most I see right now are +speed, Flame is about as common, etc.). It also can lowkey sweep certain Rain teams after Trick is exhausted/Encore user is Paralyzed or weakened if they lack Keldeo (and it is great at forcing switches with hazards up, too).


Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 236 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird / Drill Peck
- Spikes
- Roost
- Swords Dance

SD Skarmory can force Spikes up nicely into teams with Excadrill or Forretress. It is very specific and most builds should keep Whirlwind (or other options), but on the right team, it is cool. It also provides a more permanent answer to SD Gliscor, CM Latias, and SubDD Dnite besides Whirlwind, which is temporary and can result in you losing to them as the last Pokemon in a game. The role compression is cool and some bulky builds demand this type of functionality from the Skarmory slot, but a bit less practical on other builds.

 

[Excal]

rocky helmet on offensive teams:


Jirachi @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Slam
- U-turn
- Healing Wish

i use this jira on abomasnow ho that needs jira to up. rocky helmet + hail chip goes a long way. slam + hw and helmet helps jira keep up vs drill. helps ho against scarf jira.


Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 60 Def / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

rocky helmet thundurus has a similar idea (inspired from oras). i use this on "ho"/hail offense. punish drill spins/attacks and keep chipping at it so you can keep rocks up. helps ho vs scarf jira as well. evs are for drill and moves are flexible


Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake

same idea as above. i noticed some ho structures have a tough time with opposing scarf jira, especially when they lack volcarona. rocky helmet chomp can be a clever way to compensate, and punishing contact moves with rough skin + helmet is awesome. i'd recommend playing around with evs

---

stuff i brought in classic:

+ /
Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 96 HP / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Icy Wind
- Destiny Bond

Cloyster @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Spike Cannon
- Ice Shard

spike cannon allows cloyster to break through keldeo without killing itself with recoil due to double edge. strangely enough, it has higher damage output than return, which should be more powerful in theory. but ofc it's chosen for the increased crit chances as well. spike cannon + ice shard + life orb allows cloy, with the support of sr and/or a layer of spikes, to have a great matchup against very common keldeo sand structures. froslass has good synergy with cloyster bc the spikes are what pushes the keldeo rolls in cloy's favor, spinblocking can be really great on ho, the speed tier is quite nice, and cursed body (in combination with taunt) can proc to provide free setup opportunities for cloyster. my game in classic is a good example of how this strategy can work well for cloyster even in tougher matchups

/
Kaer Morhen (Skarmory) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Rock Smash
- Counter

Disturbance (Bronzong) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
- Protect

this was my take on the abr-influenced hippo clef zong structure. this team is really weak to sd drill, let alone with magnezone. feeling like this team has enough anchorage to handle a wide variety of structures, i decided to tech skarmory for this matchup. rock smash helps keep up spikes vs regular drill, and the combination of rock smash + counter makes skarmory, albeit with some odds factoring in, more serviceable into sd drill. i figured if this came up in the game, it would be surprising to my opponent. also, counter is a really nice move for the likes of mamoswine, dders (click it at the right time), etc. i don't use this skarm every time i use this 6, but it can be a good bring into specific people/if you're expecting a specific structure. worth mentioning that without abr & finch, this idea would not have been loaded. they helped bring this idea into fruition.

i used psyshock reun for the reun mirror, so i felt i didn't need skill swap on zong as long as i also had a decent mu into gliscor. i chose hp ice for gliscor as well as hitting thundurus. i don't like the original zong set at all (eq tox tect skill swap). i think it's better to just use shock reuniclus and a bronzong that has a wider spread of mu utility.


Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Protect

underutilized move. great when you want to free your ferro from having to use knock. surprisingly effective in rain mirror against opposing politoed, especially when you have your own refresh toed. takes a lot of ppl by surprise and trades well into rain + sand imo, which is befitting of a rain team which usually maximizes its mu into weatherless offense.


Politoed @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 64 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Thief
- Rest

maybe i don't see enough people do this, but teching thief onto chesto rest toed (or other toed sets) is really effective. another clever way to relieve your ferrothorn of knock off duties.

Latios (M) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 52 Def / 204 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Fire]

been using this latios for a while. helps structures with no ice resist to improve their mus vs mamo, cloy, and rain (think thund-t, ice keld, starmie, etc). even though cloy can use icicle spear and own u, in practice it's not hard to bait them into thinking you're scarf, thus taking the ice shard and revenge killing. i'm a big fan of this set i'd definitely recommend trying it

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

My thoughts on the Volcarona and Cloyster suspect test:

My general old man view is to be very cautious around making changes to old gen tiers, particularly BW as it is already a competitive metagame where a variety of team styles are viable, with innovation in items / movesets, and even pokemon picks like Clefable or Bronzong recently. Posts by Excal and Finch directly above shows some of these innovations very well. Obviously some cheese or luck based stuff is fine by me to get rid of without much thought required, like Assist Liepard, which while fun to beat and annoy players like Marsandback with on the ladder was clearly uncompetitive cheese. King's Rock was good to get rid of as well, Sleep talk lottery also.

Now clearly some current players don't share the same view that a historic metagame like BW is fine as is, and also don't want to direct their tiering efforts / big brains in making some "ideal metagame" towards the current gen 9. OK that's fine if a majority want it, but you need to be clear on what you want and if these potential bans help achieve this. This suspect test does not require participants to have any experience in playing a BW without Cloyster and or Volcarona. There is no ladder or tournament being played with these removed. At best people can theorymon what they think the new metagame could be like and if it would be better or worse with them gone. At worst it is just a chance to get another vote towards TC badge, as I myself was guilty of in doubles ou years ago, without guarantee the person knows or cares what will actually happens to the tier in the future, and a council only vote would have been better.

My theorymon ideas on this are that if both are banned it would further swing the metagame towards safe sand balance / bulky teams that can currently be punished by Volcarona and Cloyster. It seems some people do actually want this based on their posts, and would also like many rain threats and other offensive threats / tools like Latios and Scald to be banned. I guess their final ideal BW is where both players bring the same 6 sand mons, and they switch their Gliscors, Skarmorys and Ferrothorns around for 100 turns allowing the better player to carry out a long term game plan and win (or get crit on the 8th recover / roost and lose anyway)? This is not my ideal BW, BW is an offensive gen where every turn matters and if you are caught out in the teambuilder vs some offensive threat, you need to use team preview and never let your gliscor / landorus be hanging around for Cloyster to set up on etc. Of course as this is theorymon and not based on any actual playtime in the new metagame, it could be completely wrong and a BW with Cloyster and Volcarona gone is so much better it is worth messing with an old gen to do.

Summary

• My message to voters is - do you actually know what you want from BW, and how to get there if changes are really needed to a historic metagame.
• Question to council - is a suspect test relying only on theorymon for the future metagame a good idea, considering historically how few changes in BW have then been undone?

 

[Nalorium]

⚠ My English is bad

Ok so, in this post I wanted to talk about a couple of things before SPL starts. So I'll be giving my thoughts about some of the main topics lately.

Cloyster and Volcarona

Ok so ive think about this one a lot. After playing a lot of ladder games and fucking up some BWVC accounts ive realized that volcarona is a Pokemon that must stay in the tier. Especially for the fact that it "controls" and keeps at bay certain psyspam builds that are often quite outdated already. While I am aware that it is a very difficult pokemon to prepare against it in paper, I feel that in game, it is not as much of a problem as it really appears to be. I sincerely see it as a necessary evil for the tier to the extent that it forces the tier to advance and not stay in old archetypes, as may be the case of old sands that had no answer to volcarona or rains with unvialable toed and latios sets.

On the other hand cloyster in my eyes is still a pokemon that does not contribute anything to the tier. It's just a pokemon that makes certain ho archetypes even more broken than what they already are. It is also a pokemon that can ruin your game plan against it with just one crit and taking into account the icicle/rock/spike + the bw crit factors, makes it a really broken mon. It is a pokemon that simply does not contribute anything positive to the tier imo.

Ill be voting Ban Cloyster + No Ban Volcarona

BW brainstorm

Ok so there are a couple of cool sets/pokemons ive used/seen in this year that ive liked a lot

Offensive Lando Sands





Gravity, Sword Dance, Smack Down and Rock Polish are all sets that I have really enjoyed using over the last few months. Not only because of the surprise factor it offers you in the game since it breaks with the previous idea that it will be a classic defensive set, but also because of the great way this set breaks with classic sand structures and certain HO squads.

Hippowdon

I'm a big fan of this hippo, it's a great backbone in most fat sands, it always offers that whirlwind you need to avoid some weird sweep, plus if you get the right mu vs sand it's usually an almost impossible pokemon to kill. Against rain it won't leave you alone either, unless you get to face a thundu set with gnot it almost always offers that change of weather + the rocks needed to win the game in the long run. And against HO it doesn't have a weak mu either, either the rock slide set or ww rocks both offer you a very good response to certain volcarona, thundurus, terrakion and dragonite sets. Hippo + Clef/+Celebi/+Skarm/+Jellicent/+Reuniclus/+Bronzong/+Alakazam/+Lati@s/+Slowbro all of them are dumb broke.

Creative Reuni Sets

3A LO and double dance are all some really cool sets I love using. I feel that while they don't offer you the same as a classic cm reuniclus, they do give you a surprise factor that is quite fun to play with. If you just want to win yea use cm

CB Terrakion + Celebi

This is one of the most brokens duos right now, with the fall of gliscor, cb terrak can now spam cc/se without major problem under the sub. I feel that you can still work a lot with both in the builder and not resort to the typical keld terrak bi squad.

Keldeo sand

Here I really don't feel I have much to develop. With the rise of keldeo usage in sand many innovative sets have arrived that are impressively good. Be it taunt, cm hp grass, hp bug, sub tect cm, etc. all of them are extremely good. Currently rain keldeo is heavily outclassed by sand keldeo.

Kyurem-Black Rain

This is quite an interesting pokemon and an innovative answer to break the fat sands that have been used a lot lately.

Nasty Plot Bi

In sands where you lack a true wincon vs rain I feel it is the best pokemon to fill that role nowadays.

Gliscor

If cloyster gets banned, gliscor will be a really interesting pokemon to use.

SPL BW Pool

Uh so lets see if I finally get picked but:

Soulwind, Dice, Elodin, Dark Eeveon, Jisoo: Not much thing to say here just some top tier players that return to the tier. There is nothing I can say about them that we all don't already know. I am looking forward to seeing them play.

Monai, Sensei Axew, Luck>Skill, Rewer, Watashi: All of them are very good BWers who will surely get picked. So I expect very good results from all of them. But I especially want to talk about rewer, I feel he is the most underrated BWer at the moment. His game analysis is amazingly good and I love all the teams he uses. Really looking forward to see you play.

Stareal, Steve Angello, Fakes, shawyu 1313: If you are a true BW enthusiast you want to see these 4 play the tier one more year, they all have a very high level in the tier and I consider myself a fan of all 4 of them.

Mako: Never played BW in spl before, but im so excited to see her play. Definitely a top 3/4/5 (?) BWer in this pool imo.

3d: Really good BWer who has shown a really good level + im a big fan of his teams.

Wait2Seconds, marsandback, BlessyZ, dawntothedusk, Sergio aguero, Quarante8, zaaya, hellom: Long list I know but as far as I know none of them have played BW so far and I feel they all have what it takes to get at least a few wins in the pool. They all have good experience in the tier and I feel it would be interesting to see them all at least as subs and even some of them I think have what it takes to be a low cost starter.

And now the 2 big names they deserve to play this SPL

Feaniix: If you dont even consider feaniix in your draft plan ur doing something wrong. If feaniix doesn't have what it takes to be at least a sub in this spl then no one does. He is such an incredible player, I have teamed with him on multiple tours and he has always shown me to be an incredible person but most of all an incredible teammate. He is always willing to help with anything necessary and when it's time for him to play, he always does an excellent job. I am the number 1 fan of all the teams he uses and he knows how to prepare perfectly against any rival

Fakee: What can I say about fakee that I haven't already said. His skill in BW is more than evident: he masters the necessary skills and has a deep knowledge of the game's strategies. Furthermore, his previous experience in competitions demonstrates his ability to perform under pressure. However, what truly sets my friend apart is his human qualities and his ability to work as a team. He is collaborative and always willing to support his teammates whether in tests, providing scouts or whatever is needed. He is very committed in any tour he plays so he will always be on the lookout for anything. Fakee is not only a great player, but he also has the ability to make a difference in any team, he can make a BWer go from getting 4/5 wins to getting 6/7. Get him.

If I missed anyone im sorry. Also pls excuse me any mistakes.

 

[SatoriKomeji727]

Killing Heatran​

Heatran is probably well known as one of the tankiest pokés in B&W OU currently. And deservingly so. With great defensive stats (106 base Df. And Sp. Df.), a VERY good ability in Flash Fire, Weak to only 3 types (Ground, Water, and Fighting), and commonly equipped with Air Balloon (makes it inmune to Ground-type attacks until gets damaged by a move), it is way too resistant to pretty much most things. But, we are not talking about that in this post (i think). We are talking about its weaknesses, and how to exploit them.

DISCLAIMER: This post will be talking only about super-effective moves. If i missed any other moves that can reliably kill Heatran, please let me know.


252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 214-254 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This method can guarantee a 2HKO against Heatran, but it mandates a Choice Specs wearing Latios. With similar stats and Choice Scarf, it becomes a 99.9 chance to 3HKO. 252 SpA Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-170 (37.3 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unreliable method, but still somewhat strong.
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 396-468 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pretty strong method, unless the Heatran is wearing an Air Balloon



These are just some methods for killing Heatran. It is likely that some of you find more ways. If so, i will add them accordingly with credits.

 

[Gamer1234556]

Killing Heatran​

Heatran is probably well known as one of the tankiest pokés in B&W OU currently. And deservingly so. With great defensive stats (106 base Df. And Sp. Df.), a VERY good ability in Flash Fire, Weak to only 3 types (Ground, Water, and Fighting), and commonly equipped with Air Balloon (makes it inmune to Ground-type attacks until gets damaged by a move), it is way too resistant to pretty much most things. But, we are not talking about that in this post (i think). We are talking about its weaknesses, and how to exploit them.

DISCLAIMER: This post will be talking only about super-effective moves. If i missed any other moves that can reliably kill Heatran, please let me know.


252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 214-254 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This method can guarantee a 2HKO against Heatran, but it mandates a Choice Specs wearing Latios. With similar stats and Choice Scarf, it becomes a 99.9 chance to 3HKO. 252 SpA Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-170 (37.3 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unreliable method, but still somewhat strong.
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 396-468 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pretty strong method, unless the Heatran is wearing an Air Balloon



These are just some methods for killing Heatran. It is likely that some of you find more ways. If so, i will add them accordingly with credits.

Checks and Counters
Water-types: Water-types like Tentacruel, Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Politoed all threaten Heatran with super effective moves and have the type advantage against it. Politoed, in particular, can summon rain to weaken Heatran's Fire-type moves while strengthening Water-type moves. However, all of these Pokemon can be worn down by status, residual damage from Magma Storm, and entry hazards over time.

Ground-types: Gliscor, Excadrill, Garchomp, and Landorus-T can all destroy Heatran with super effective STAB moves. They can even set up, or in Excadrill's case, spin away Stealth Rock as Heatran switches. However, Garchomp and Landorus-T hate Toxic, and all of them have a hard time against the Magma Storm set, since it wears them down. Heatran can even use Hidden Power Ice on the switch to take these Pokemon out.

Certain Dragon-types: Garchomp, Hydreigon, and Dragonite can beat Heatran by virtue of their higher Speed, Fire resistance, and super effective STAB or coverage moves that can take it out. These Dragon-types hate taking status and Hidden Power Ice, however, and are worn down relatively quickly.

Chansey: Chansey can take on Heatran thanks to Natural Cure removing poison, its special bulk letting it take all of Heatran's hits, and being able to heal with Soft-Boiled; it can also wear Heatran down with Seismic Toss, which can break a potential Substitute.

Faster Threats: Pokemon like Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Latios can potentially threaten Heatran and force it out. However, all of these Pokemon have a hard time switching in, and if Heatran is carrying Protect, it can scout the move they lock into if they're holding a Choice item.

Fighting-types: Pokemon like Mienshao, Terrakion, and especially Keldeo can hit Heatran very hard; the latter two can also take a few hits from it if need be. However, all of these Pokemon hate status and can be worn down by Heatran over time.

Lure Sets: Pokemon like Volcarona that Heatran would otherwise beat often run coverage moves like Hidden Power Ground to lure in and KO Heatran.

 

[Eternal Sunset]

OK This is first time I post cause my english is bad and I promise to Monai and Ibby I will post something, now here we go.
I wasn't a HO player when I first started learning bw, I used smurf for part of the time and personal reasons I play HO is not smooth. As well as dice hail. Therefore, recently, I began to improve my own style, trying to build and play HO well. My building inspiration comes from the skarm jelli core that posted by peng , which is very common in the ladder recently. Clef Psy Balance (pokepast.es)
So this team below is made be me and I am not sure if someone has already built something like this, let me talk my source of inspiration.

Direct replication

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot
- Signal Beam

Jellicent @ Air Balloon
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Night Shade

Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Trick
- Psyshock

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- Swords Dance

Skarmory @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird
- Taunt

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch

At first I was trying to use some pokemons that below ou, and I really like luca so I made this, but it seems that Terrakion is in this team can do more things than Lucario so I changed it to Terrakion, here is the team. So made a team that have luca is my goal and let me tell u why I just wanna play it.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 252-298 (96.5 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Landorus-Therian: 302-359 (79.6 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Tentacruel: 318-374 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah its high firepower is what I like best about it，it can be paired with stealthy rock and spikes after a sword dance to destroy many threats in the thread. You can change its move IcePunch to Crunch to against Reuniclus and Jellicent.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 382-452 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Jellicent: 504-595 (125 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This team is kind hard to against Ground Type when Skarymory died and Jellicent's Air Balloon be broken，so u can change Scizor's item to Air Balloon. This will help u more comfortable to face Ground Type but less firepower and need more chip damage to reach the killing range. For pairing the Air Balloon u can set Scizor like this

Air Balloon

Scizor @ Air Balloon
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance
- Thief
- Superpower

Here are some replays
Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-2077887864
Ok thanks u friends watch here and hope u don't mind my broken english，maybe gonna post something new when I discover more interesting configurations or Pokemon!

 

[ImZer0]

this is my first time posting in here so i apologies if my wording isnt on point, furthermore this might be a bit too long considering ive held onto this for so long so i apologize but here we go.
Wsg BWers, today i decided it would be a fun day to talk for a bit about a certain Pokémon that much of BW has forgotten about but a mon that greatly affected from gems being banned, that Pokémon ofc being DPP OU's very own: Lucario

at first glance Lucario seems to be quite worthless in BW OU largely due to the prevalence of Lando-T and better fighting types in the tier(mainly Terrakion and Keldeo) meaning that its quite hard to utilize as consistently as the other fighters in the tier, furthermore its unimpressive bulk is pretty horrendous when it comes to taking netural hits let alone super effective ones in general, but Lucario has some nice noticeable traits that it can boast having over its competition:

1. its Steel/Fighting typing: while this does mean its a fighting type weak to earthquake and Scarf Magnezone to a lesser extent, being Steel/Fighting is actually quite nice in some situations including: being 4x resistant to stealth rock as well as having an immunity to Poison and Sandstorm(traits which are only shared by Excadrill). this means that Lucario is arguably one of the only true viable users of Life Orb in BW OU as well as being hard to wear down via passive damage outside of spikes. Another cool trait that it has because of this typing is that its a fighting type that takes complete advantage of Latios(the best pokemon in the tier) because of its steel typing which allows it to take advantage of him should Latios lock himself into Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor, this pairs well with pokemon like Dragonite(who ends up getting revenge killed by Latios in some situations) which allows Lucario to get free setup opportunity against him and thus can end the game on the spot if positioned well.

2. its access to strong priority: another noticeable trait that Lucario boast over Breloom(and arguably every single other fighting type in BW OU) is its access to Extreme Speed which generally has better priority(+2 as opposed to +1) and much better netural coverage against offensive pokemon to resist Mach Punch(Dragonite, Starmie, Latios, Thundurus-T, and Tornadus to name but a few) all of which die after an sd with some slight chip damage(some calcs are listed below):
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 252-298 (96.5 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 104 HP / 144 Def 30 IVs Thundurus-Therian: 247-291 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus: 294-347 (98.3 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Lucario also has access to Bullet Punch which alongside Espeed can be useful in certain situations against pokemon that resist/are immune espeed like Terrakion, Scarf Tyranitar, and the rare Gengar, as well as having a stronger priority move vs both Kyurem and Kyurem-Black, which basically gives Lucario double priority with ESpeed + BP. Generally tho this leaves Lucario vulnerable to Reuniclus, Jellicent, and the Slowtwins(Pokemon it cant beat if you forgo Crunch) but nonetheless its usable on squads that have those Pokémon covered!

3. it being able to run Life Orb effectively with basically 0 drawback: as i stated before, Lucario is arguably one of the only pokemon to be able to run Life Orb effectively without no drawback thanks to its typing that grants it with a 4x stealth rock resistance and an immunity to both sandstorm and poison, this allows it to completely maximize its power as an SDer without being effectively badly by passive damage unlike Breloom for example.

4. it's amazing sweep potential: Lucario has amazing sweep potential when positioned well, +2 CC + ESpeed does immense damage to most of the tier(especially if hazards are up, which in that case it completely lights out and can snowball into a completely dangerous pokemon on route to outright winning the game). This is especially relevant because some teams that hinge on Lando/Gliscor to stop Lucario can completely outright lose once those 2 have been eliminate and if Lucario is positioned well. It gets decent setup opportunity on choiced locked moves or Pokémon that can't really touch it(ex: Ferrothorn, -2 Latios/Latias, Latios locked into DPulse as well) thanks to it's fantastic typing alongside the traits that said typing brings to the table, so if positioned well Lucario can be a completely dangerous sweeper thanks to CC + ESpeed shredding most of the tier at +2 in conjunction with hazards.

Now with all of that out of the way the main question now is "what team archetypes can Lucario fit on?", and the answer to that is basically Hyper Offense and SkarmJelli with Scarf Tyranitar which can utilize Lucario's talents and its capability of becoming a dangerous sweeper when position well(ofc you can fit Lucario on other archetypes outside of HO and SkarmJelli but i found Lucario to fit best on those 2 since they can utilize its unique traits to the fullest), entry hazards are the key to Lucario's success as its a great abuser of hazards and it can generally let Lucario clinch many KO's on many targets that get affected by hazards
(example of common hazard setters it likes being paired with:

,

,

,

).

for team archs: generally it fits nicely on Hyper Offense since either Chomp, Slass, Skarm, or Terrak can setup hazards for it to take advantage of and also these teams will often have other pokemon to deal with Lando and other grounds that can annoy it heavily like Garchomp and Gliscor, it really loves being paired with Balloon Starmie and sometimes even Dragonite for this reason alone as both can take advantage of those 3 and can give Lucario free entry to setup vs Latios after they get ko'd from him should one of them end up dying to him. As for SkarmJelli, i found Lucario to fit pretty nicely on certain SkarmJelli teams since they utilize Scarf Tyranitar(Lucario can also sometimes run Bullet Punch on these teams due to ttar handling Jellicent and Reuniclus) which can take care of Gliscor + non Scarf Lando and Chomp and Custap Skarm is arguably one of Lucario's best teammates as it can setup both Spikes and Rocks for it, while Jellicent is an excellent spinblocker and can maintain it's teams entry hazards for Lucario to abuse with Scarf Tyranitar to remove Starmie so hazards stay up. Ofc as i said before you can use Lucario on other archetypes outside of these 2(Dragmag w Lucario for example(???) ), but generally i found these 2 to be the most effective ways to utilize Lucario tho who knows maybe other archetypes with it will pop up in the future .

In conclusion: while Lucario has noticeably flaws compare to other mons in this tier, i generally believe Lucario is underrated in current BW OU by virtue of the unique traits it posses and i think it generally benefited a ton from gems getting banned from BW OU. sorry if this was a bit too long but i hope yall enjoyed reading this and have a good day everyone!

 

[Finchinator]

Regarding the future of BW tiering, here is what I personally prefer doing:

• Vote again on Cloyster. We promised to reevaluate the pre-SPL vote after SPL, but the double suspect type of vote is bad. It’s best to vote on one thing at a time and Volcarona has settled down a ton without gems. Volcarona isn’t on my radar anymore. Meanwhile Cloyster adopted the new special set, which is now popular and able to hit Keldeo and Slowbro type of checks (or even Magnezone with Hydro). I’d like to just have a re-vote on it and am fine putting that topic to bed regardless of result there.
• Hold a formal discussion on Thundurus-T, which can lead to a vote if there is support. It’s been an under-the-radar broken threat for a while, but it’s only grown more obnoxious as we see people use different sets and find different fits. A limiting factor for it is that it’s best on Rain and reliant on some inaccurate moves like Focus Blast or Thunder if Rain isn’t up, but covering the options it has is rough
• Wait until after Classic once these topics are covered. Then, open another active discussion before SPL and follow through properly/timely from there

This doesn’t tackle Latios or Excadrill, but that is done purposefully and I don’t think I would act on either rn.

 

[Eeveeto]

Finally some post-Gen BW Tiering action I can support (speaking about Thundurus-T, of course).

 

[Lumi_Nati 31]

I haven't played the tier in a while but it's nice to see that two of the most annoying mons in the tier might be discussed soon.
I can definitely see why some people might say that Lati, Exca and a few others (Mainly Reun) are broken, but from what I've seen they're more divisive than Thundy and Cloy, as some people claim that they are a necessary evil in the meta (and a few players think that they aren'tareally a major problem to begin with) because they still bring some good things to the tier despite their sheer power, where as Cloy and Thundy are pokemon which mostly make your life in the builder harder without really offering anything in terms of helping create a more stable metagame.
I feel like discussing the things that most people agree with (from what I've seen anyway) is much more likely to lead towards progress in the tier

 

[Finchinator]

Acupressure is now banned from BW OU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-in-evasion-clause-bw.3738246/#post-10072419

 

[leoperi99]

I think Kyurem Black should be tested again i dont like how that mon just simply grabs free kos sometimes

 

[Finchinator]

Kyurem-Black is pretty limited and very easy to revenge kill, so I doubt it will be the subject of any tiering action.