Lower Tiers ADV Sub-Zero Used Resources + Metagame Discussion Thread

[missangelic]

Approved by Hiro'

Image credit: MAHOU for the Pokemon TCG - Celestial Storm

ADV SU Discussion Thread​

Welcome to ADV Sub-Zero Used (SU), the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon and the tier below ZU. ADV SU has seen early speculation through the SU Discord since 2021, and the internal community interest and history have both grown a lot since then. We've run several Discord tours, we have scheduled roomtours, and there's lots of matchmaking. We hope that this thread can reach even more players interested in lower tiers, as we'll be able to share resources and discuss the tier more effortfully and visibly!

Pokemon tiered as ZU

Pokemon tiered as ZU are ones ranked B or above on the most recent ADV ZU viability ranking update. This includes:
Abra, Aipom, Anorith, Ariados, Beedrill, Castform, Chinchou, Clamperl, Corsola, Cubone, Delcatty, Doduo, Drowzee, Elekid, Flaaffy, Gloom, Koffing, Lileep, Magnemite, Meditite, Mightyena, Noctowl, Ponyta, Porygon, Quilava, Rhyhorn, Seaking, Tentacool, Tropius, Volbeat, Voltorb, Wartortle

SUBL

In addition to Pokemon tiered as ZU and above, SU has its own banlist that includes the following Pokemon/elements:
Magby, Sleep moves (Sleep Powder, Spore, etc.)

Like ZU, SU has a "Dry-pass" clause, meaning that Pokemon cannot run a moveset with Baton Pass and setup moves

Viability Rankings Resources

Viability Rankings with sample sets

ADV SU Viability Rankings
Last update: December 30, 2024
Pokemon’s names lead to links of their sample sets

New!

Smoochum

S Ranks

S-​

Delibird


A Ranks

A+​

Aron

Dustox

Staryu

A​

Bayleef

Croconaw

Grimer

Illumise

Lombre

Nosepass

Spinda

Spoink

Sunflora

Voltorb

Wailmer

Weepinbell

A-​

Cyndaquil

Growlithe

Onix

Pidgeotto

Taillow


B Ranks

B+​

Exeggcute

Horsea

Meowth

Nidorino

Shuppet

Snorunt

Snubbull

B​

Clefairy

Farfetch'd

Luvdisc

Parasect

Slowpoke

B-​

Cacnea

Geodude

Masquerain


C Ranks

C+​

Bagon

Kabuto

Larvitar

Mankey

Natu

C​

Baltoy

Butterfree

Dratini

Loudred

Machop

Mareep

Numel

C-​

Beautifly

Kirlia

Nuzleaf

Rattata

Venonat

Visual VR

Personal VR Tool

Challenge Code

/challenge gen3zu @@@ -Abra, -Aipom, -Anorith, -Ariados, -Beedrill, -Castform, -Chinchou, -Clamperl, -Corsola, -Cubone, -Delcatty, -Doduo, -Drowzee, -Elekid, -Flaaffy, -Gloom, -Koffing, -Lileep, -Magnemite, -Meditite, -Mightyena, -Noctowl, -Ponyta, -Porygon, -Quilava, -Rhyhorn, -Seaking, -Tentacool, -Tropius, -Volbeat, -Voltorb, -Wartortle, -Magby

Sample Teams

Wailmer Offense by missangelic
Lead Cyndaquil Paralysis-spam by missangelic
Lead Growlithe Bulky Offense by Zpice
Rain by missangelic
Sun by missangelic
Lead Spoink Deilibird Offense by Zpice
Snosepass Taillow Spikes by missangelic
More TBA!

SU Discord
Council: missangelic (SU leader), Zpice, Aides, Lillith Plays, sleid, Gerrychu29
Other SU Old Gens threads: SS / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV / GSC / RBY

 

[missangelic]

Speed Tiers

Last update:

Tier 0: 400 and above​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	Boosts​
644​	​	Luvdisc​	97​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
586​	​	Luvdisc​	97​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
480​	​	Farfetch'd, Growlithe, Horsea, Masquerain, Nuzleaf​	60​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
460​	​	Luvdisc​	97​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
458​	​	Kabuto, Weepinbell​	55​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
456​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Positive​	30​	252​	+2​
438​	​	Farfetch'd, Growlithe, Horsea, Masquerain, Nuzleaf​	60​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
436​	​	Bagon, Dratini, Lombre​	50​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
418​	​	Kabuto, Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
416​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	30​	252​	+2​

Tier 1: 300 - 399​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	Boosts​
398​	​	Bagon, Dratini, Lombre​	50​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
398​	​	Larvitar​	41​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
393​	​	Mankey, Natu, Onix​	70​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
392​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
390​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Positive​	30​	252​	+2​
376​	​	Beautifly, Cyndaquil, Smoochum​	65​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
360​	​	Farfetch'd​	60​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
358​	​	Exeggcute​	30​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
356​	​	Exeggcute​	30​	Neutral​	30​	252​	+2​
354​	​	Croconaw​	58​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
348​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
346​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Positive​	30​	252​	+2​
327​	​	Bagon, Dratini, Snorunt​	50​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
322​	​	Luvdisc​	97​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
322​	​	Croconaw​	58​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+1​
318​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
316​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Neutral​	30​	252​	+2​
312​	​	Farfetch'd, Masquerain, Nuzleaf​	60​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
306​	​	Meowth, Poliwag​	90​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​

Tier 2: 200 - 299​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	Boosts​
298​	​	Larvitar​	41​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
295​	​	Illumise, Staryu, Taillow​	85​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
293​	​	Luvdisc​	97​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
292​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
290​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	30​	0​	+2​
273​	​	Delibird​	75​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
272​	​	Lombre​	50​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
267​	​	Rattata​	72​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
265​	​	Pidgeotto​	71​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
262​	​	Butterfree, Mankey, Natu, Onix​	70​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
251​	​	Beautifly, Cyndaquil, Nidorino, Smoochum​	65​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
240​	​	Farfetch'd, Growlithe, Horsea, Masquerain, Nuzleaf, Spinda, Spoink​	60​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
236​	​	Croconaw​	58​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
232​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
230​	​	Luvdisc​	97​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
229​	​	Nidorino​	65​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
229​	​	Kabuto, Weepinbell​	55​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
228​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Positive​	30​	252​	0​
219​	​	Farfetch'd, Growlithe, Horsea, Masquerain, Nuzleaf, Spinda, Spoink​	60​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
218​	​	Bagon, Dratini, Kirlia, Lombre, Snorunt​	50​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
215​	​	Croconaw​	58​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
214​	​	Loudred​	48​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
209​	​	Kabuto, Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
208​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	30​	252​	0​
207​	​	Shuppet​	45​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
206​	​	Shuppet​	45​	Positive​	30​	252​	0​

Tier 3: 100 - 199​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	Boosts​
199​	​	Lombre​	50​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
199​	​	Larvitar​	41​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
196​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
195​	​	Loudred​	48​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
195​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Positive​	30​	252​	0​
192​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
189​	​	Shuppet​	45​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
188​	​	Shuppet​	45​	Neutral​	30​	252​	0​
185​	​	Cacnea​	35​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
179​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
178​	​	Exeggcute​	40​	Neutral​	30​	252​	0​
176​	​	Onix​	70​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
174​	​	Aron, Parasect, Sunflora​	30​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
173​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Positive​	30​	252​	0​
169​	​	Machop​	35​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
166​	​	Dustox​	65​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
159​	​	Aron, Parasect, Sunflora​	30​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
158​	​	Sunflora​	30​	Neutral​	30​	252​	0​
156​	​	Bayleef, Farfetch'd, Masquerain, Nuzleaf, Spinda, Spoink​	60​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
152​	​	Croconaw​	58​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
152​	​	Geodude​	20​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
146​	​	Baltoy, Kabuto, Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
145​	​	Weepinbell​	55​	Neutral​	30​	0​	0​
140​	​	Spinda​	60​	Negative​	31​	0​	0​
139​	​	Geodude​	25​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
136​	​	Dratini, Lombre, Snorunt​	50​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
132​	​	Loudred​	48​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
126​	​	Venonat​	45​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
113​	​	Venonat​	45​	Negative​	31​	0​	0​
112​	​	Spinda​	60​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
106​	​	Cacnea, Clefairy, Machop, Mareep, Numel​	35​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​

Tier 4: 99 and below​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	Boosts​
96​	​	Aron, Nosepass, Parasect, Snubbull, Sunflora​	30​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
95​	​	Numel​	35​	Negative​	31​	0​	0​
86​	​	Grimer​	25​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
85​	​	Venonat​	45​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
76​	​	Geodude​	20​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
66​	​	Slowpoke​	15​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
57​	​	Grimer​	25​	Neutral​	31​	0​	-1​

Role Compendium

Role Compendium

Utility Roles

Entry Hazards
Spikes
|
Rapid Spin
|
Spinblockers


Item Control
Knock Off
|
Thief

Trick


Misc. Utility/Support
Baton Pass (Dry pass only)
|
Encore
|
Intimidate
|
Light Screen
|
Reflect
|
Taunt
|



Offensive Roles

Attackers
Physical Attackers

|
Special Attackers
|
Mixed Attackers

|

Setup Users
Agility
|
Bulk Up
|
Calm Mind
|
Dragon Dance
|
Growth

Petaya Berry
|
Rain Dance
|
Salac Berry
|
Substitute (viable/typical users)
|
Sunny Day
|
Swords Dance
|
Misc. Setup
(Cosmic Power),(Curse), (Liechi Berry)

Priority
Fake Out
|
Quick Attack
|

Misc. Offensive Roles
Choice Band Users
|
Magnet Pull




Hyper Offensive Roles

Self-KO
Explosion / Self-Destruct
|
Memento
|

Rain
Setters
|
Beneficiaries
|

Sun
Setters
|
Beneficiaries
|



Defensive Roles
Walls
Physical Walls
|
Special Walls
|
Mixed Walls
|

Anti-Setup
Roar/Whirlwind
|
Psych Up
|

Clerics
Aromatherapy / Heal Bell
|
Wish
|

Status Spreaders
note: sleep moves (Sleep Powder, Yawn, etc) are banned
Paralysis
Thunder Wave
|
Stun Spore
|
Body Slam

Static
|
Poison
Toxic (typical users)
|
Sludge Bomb
|
Other Status
Burn (Will-O-Wisp)

Leech Seed
|
Status Absorbers
Refresh
|
Guts
|
Lum Berry
|
Rest (viable/typical users)
|

 

[missangelic]

Reserved

 

[missangelic]

You may now post!

 

[BP]

Wowza

 

[Zpice]

Thanks to the efforts of Missangelic and the council members, we've finally managed to get a thread. With that in mind, I figured I should celebrate by sharing to everyone some fascinating sets that I've built in recent memory, exploring the purposes of some Pokemon and why I think these sets are underrated.

Mixed Sweeper Weepinbell



Weepinbell @ Salac Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 200 Atk / 68 SpD / 236 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Substitute
​

Weepinbell's strong Attack and Special Attack makes it an effective setup sweeper on offensive teams. Its STAB-boosted Sludge Bomb can be difficult for most Pokemon to handle after a +2 Attack boost. Weepinbell invests 4 EVs in HP and 68 EVs in Special Defense to withstand an Ice Beam from offensive Staryu and Lombre. After consuming a Salac Berry, it can outspeed everything up to a maximum speed of 90. Giga Drain is a useful tool for handling Rock-types such as Nosepass and Onix. Weepinbell is most effective on teams that use paralysis, which can give Weepinbell free opportunities to set up. In conclusion, Weepinbell solidifies as a powerful Salac Berry sweeper capable of exploiting passive attackers and Water-types.

Three Attacks + Protect Nidorino



Nidorino (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Return
- Protect​

Although Nidorino finds it difficult to set itself apart from this role given Grimer's superior bulk and access to Explosion, the additional speed Nidorino possesses allows it to outspeed the likes of Lombre and Weepinbell. Hidden Power Ground allows it to eliminate bulky attackers like Aron and Grimer. Protect is beneficial to Nidorino so it can recover HP with Leftovers as well as scout moves from a plethora of Pokemon ranging from Illumise, Spinda, and Staryu. Nidorino is well-suited to offensive teams that demand a solid wallbreaker that can stomach hits and has strong moveset flexibility.

Choice Band Lead Spinda



Spinda @ Choice Band
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 32 HP / 240 Atk / 60 SpD / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Brick Break
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass
​

Spinda is one of the most diverse Pokemon in ADV SU, with a wide range of sets that make it difficult to answer. By giving Spinda a Choice Band, you can turn it into a powerful wallbreaker with access to pivoting to preserve momentum. Spinda invests 32 EVs in HP and 60 EVs in Special Defense so it can live a Water Spout from Wailmer while it OHKOes it with Return. Brick Break targets Rock- and Steel-types like Aron, Nosepass, and Onix. Shadow Ball is an effective move against the uncommon Shuppet. Baton Pass allows Spinda to pivot out of bad matchups to preserve momentum for the rest of the team. Choice Band Spinda is helpful for applying pressure to slower Pokemon while it can stomach weak attacks. Pokemon like Growlithe and Smoochum love Spinda's pivoting ability, which allows them to switch in safely and penetrate walls.

Swords Dance Nuzleaf



Nuzleaf @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge
- Quick Attack / Hidden Power [Ground]
- Explosion
​

Despite being a slightly less common Pokemon, Nuzleaf stands out as a Swords Dance attacker thanks to the combination of priority and Explosion. Double-Edge helps Nuzleaf deal massive damage to the opponent at the cost of recoil. Quick Attack allows it to pick off weaker threats and set up sweepers. Hidden Power Ground is a good alternative to Double-Edge which targets Aron and Shuppet. Explosion is a strong wall-breaking tool, allowing Nuzleaf to trade with any Pokemon not named Aron or Shuppet with a +2 Attack boost. Silk Scarf allows Nuzleaf to secure the OHKO on Lombre at +2 with Double-Edge and a favorable roll against Smoochum with Quick Attack. Nuzleaf benefits from Spikes support provided by Snorunt, enabling it to achieve an OHKO against defensive walls like Spinda and Sunflora after one layer of Spikes. Nuzleaf also appreciates paralysis support, giving it more freedom to set up with Swords Dance and initiate its wallbreaking capabilities during the mid-game.

Offensive Tank Wailmer



Wailmer @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 172 Def / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Electric]
- Self-Destruct​

The last Pokémon I'd like to talk about today is Wailmer. Wailmer is a unique mixed attacker that can utilize its speed to pose slow, offensive threats or its bulk to absorb weak attacks. By using 84 Speed EVs, Wailmer can outrun Pokemon such as uninvested Natu, Jolly Aron and Snubbull, and Timid Sunflora. The remaining EVs are allocated to its defense, enabling Wailmer to withstand two Double-Edge hits from Meowth and survive a direct hit from Choice Band Pidgeotto and Spinda. Hydro Pump is capable of OHKOing Snorunt and Delibird. Hydro Pump is capable of OHKOing Snorunt and Delibird. Ice Beam effectively removes Grass-types like Exeggcute and Weepinbell. Wailmer can use Hidden Power Electric and Hidden Power Grass to target opposing Water-types like Croconaw and Slowpoke, but Hidden Power Grass is preferred for its damage against Kabuto. Self-Destruct works well for trading with specific walls like Dustox and Sunflora, both of which are vulnerable to being KOed after switching into a Hydro Pump. Wailmer thrives on offensive teams that require a secondary physical hit taker that threatens massive damage in return. Physical attackers like Taillow and Pidgeotto appreciate Wailmer switching into Rock- and Steel-types like Aron and Onix, which otherwise struggle to break through with Double-Edge.

I am glad we have began to make serious progress with this tier after two and a half years of development, and I would love to see other contributing to the tier that was my first home. I thank everyone for reading this post, and hope to see you again soon!

 

[plznostep]

ADV SU​

My First Impressions on the Metagame​

---

Personal Viability Ranking

​

---

Best Pokemon



These two have stood out from the crowd in my personal opinion. They are both offensively very potent are versatile with their sets. Spinda has sets such as Choice Band, Bulky Attacker, Baton Pass pivot, and more. This makes it pretty splashable and basically mandatory to get the best use out of Pokemon who struggle to get in such as Delibird, Mankey, and Smoochum.

Illumise is a fast strong special attacker with great utility moves such as Encore, Thunder Wave, Wish, and Baton Pass. Access to reliable recovery also allows it to stay healthy. It's coverage with Thunderbolt and Ice Punch is also basically perfect for the tier and allows it to clean quite well.

Other Notable Pokemon


A glue Pokemon for the tier. I think its the most splashable normal-resist and it's speed outpacing the Fire-types and good offensive typing helps offset its poor offenses, alongside Explosion to trade excellently.


A strong and fast Water-type powerhouse. It's quite frail but its speed and good enough bulk allows it to check Pokemon such as Onix with access to recovery as well.


Another strong and bulky Water-type. It's a trading powerhouse with Self-Destruct plus it's bulk, and very splashable as well.


Pidgeotto feels like the best Choice Banded Pokemon available. Great bulk, and fair defensive typing, and offensively very strong with Quick Attack to stave off Salac Berry Sweepers
​

---

Fun Pokemon I've Tried

Salac Berry + SD Flail

Bayleef @ Salac Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flail
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Bayleef has the perfect coverage and boosting move to use a Flail set effectively. No Rock-type is able to resist Flail + Hidden Power Grass except Aron, who does not appreciate an Overgrow boosted Hidden Power Grass. It generally doesn't have many issues getting down to low hp with Substitute with decent speed and bulk allowing it survive a lot of Pokemon within the tier and get a Substitute off.

SubSalac + Endeavor Lead

Treecko @ Salac Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Endeavor
- Substitute

Boasting a decent speed tier of 70, Treecko can be a fine Endeavor lead akin to it's evolution in ADV PU. When it gets low, it also activates Overgrow once again powering up it's Giga Drain. While Giga Drain can carry it outside of Overgrow, you can just Substitute to get your HP back down into Overgrow.

SubSalac + Swarm

Beautifly @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Def / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Silver Wind
- Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Substitute

A retro set from the early days of ADV ZU, Beautifly can use Substitute Salac Berry sets here too. It has quite good coverage for tier; and 70 base attack is not too bad to get your sweep off with also a decent enough Speed stat. It's not super amazing but quite fun to use.

SubPetaya Breaker

Butterfree @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Stun Spore
- Substitute

Butterfree is pretty cool to use here. It has some pretty nice offensive stats but unfortunately like many special attackers in ADV, no STAB. It still can get by though with Stun Spore being a pretty fun option to use. It's got tough competition in Illumise, but it is stronger, has Psychic so isn't as scared of Pokemon like Grimer, and has a ground immunity at least so that's cool.​