I would like to push back just a little on the Speed Pass ban train. When making one of my earlier posts in this forum on the subject of Jask Pass, I made a glib comment concerning a general disinterest as to whether Jask or Speed Pass in general are banned for the simple fact that we generally don't see significant high-level play of Speed Pass (with the notable exception of an Ursaring team that SEA has used in tournament with decent showings). My assumption was that this was a result of Speed Pass being mediocre as a style, but I checked anyway because if I don't have a very specific reason for why I dislike something, I have to check whether it's a result of lacking technical ability or misunderstanding some subtler strategic concept -- as it often is. I discussed this in part in a dump and in a VR post that I made. Long story short, I ended up building a healthy number of teams and ultimately labbed some with Fruhdazi in preparation for JI. Here are all of the takes I shared in my most recent team dump:
https://pokepast.es/1dfaa90e4a74b369
A few of them are less serious than the others, and most of them are untested, but I stand by these teams as a sample of how Speed Pass can be used in a healthy and balanced approach to the game. My concept was that Agility Pass Zapdos could be used to punish CB locking from Aero or Dugtrio (or any mon), among other mons that Zap counters. +2 Zapdos with HP Grass is able to clean house vs EC, and passing speed to Cune and Jirachi helps them beat Dugtrio. In a sense, it is similar to DD Mence, but worse vs Blissey. There are various Zap win states against non-Blissey teams, and there are some win states for mons that Zap supports against Blissey teams, so with some principles of match-up division, it's possible to build a flexible and consistent team comp that interacts with the tier in a non-cheesy capacity. There is value in this style, and it must be played intelligently to achieve this value. Here are several sample replays of teams built by me or Fruhdazi in use:
Fruhdazi g2 vs Fakes in WB:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-850720
In my opinion, this game was won with Sub from Pert on Ice Beam from Regice. Fruhdazi was upset about a mid into max roll that KO'd Pert and some other RNG. This was close to the dream match up for Agility Zap, and one extra turn of damage by punishing Dugtrio forced to revenge kill Swampert might have meant that Zapdos could win later.
Fruhdazi JI Semifinals vs Triangles, g2:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-854724
Zapdos was set to clean, provided it was not traded with Magneton in this one. An example of a favorable match-up which was lost, but a case where its value can be seen in what could have been accomplished, but also illustrating how it isn't just a cheese-win generator.
Fruhdazi JI Semifinals vs Triangles, g3:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-854734
Another game where +2 Zapdos could have been used to clean, but was instead used in support of Jirachi. Note that this is in a game against a team with no hard Zapdos or Suicune counters, and weak to Lax as well. However, it required technique and benefitted from neutral sleep RNG. With some different decisions from Triangles -- not necessarily better in principle -- or better RNG, this game could have gone either way. But this was also a favorable match-up.
Mint Yerb OMO:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2388576858-874pvixt9vqlcb3li2wfib3d10pblwspw
I feel that had Mint Yerb boomed (Celebi) with Regirock, Agility Zap would have been primed to sweep.
I suppose the fundamental difference here is that the point of Zapdos is not just to use it as a speed pass abuser, but also to treat it as a real Pokemon, as is not the case for Ninjask or Smeargle Pass. I chose to use public replays of stuff I had some connection to and didn't bother to ask anyone's permission to share private ones -- they can add them here if they'd like -- so I don't have much of a sample size including replays where Speed Pass abuses Dug or Aero in particular, but my larger point is that I feel that Speed Pass on Zapdos isn't as much of a problem with the ban on passing multiple sets of stats because it generally benefits from the Speed itself and best uses speed to preempt revenge killing. There are some examples of mix-speed physical mons that are threatening with speed passed to them, including fighters, Marowak, or CB Tar/Meta, but except for SD Marowak, these mons are usually possible to counter when passed to or otherwise, could have been with more precise play or a better team, and I don't think that passing to Wak AND finding the extra turn to set up is necessarily consistently the easiest, considering its frailty. It is, however, generate, and I think banning Wak is probably the fastest way to get most people to shut up about banning Speed Pass, since other versions are more or less playable, imo. I think that Agility Zap without BP is good, but BP really helps vs Dug stall and fast revenge killers, but doesn't break the reasonably bulky teams that can handle Zap by itself or with support (without the cheese factor of Marowak).
What I'm trying to say is that Zap Pass interacts with the tier usually in a healthy and constructive way. It is not without counterplay, it isn't something that reduces the game to mindless 50-50s, and it isn't the problem. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I 100% agree that Smear Pass and Jask Pass need some kind of nerf. Whether that's taking Wak away from them, banning them as individual mons, or banning certain combinations of moves, I really don't care at this point -- and I'm not so curious as to double check if I'm missing something, because we've seen Assist Pass and now DD Pass, and Drum Pass is annoying enough that I feel like Smear is just problematic and cheesy for its combination of sleep, BP, and utility options, and Jask is Jask. But I think there is a healthy enough use case for Zap Pass, especially considering it and its teams aren't uncounterable with bulky, grounded mons, walls, booms, or phasing in the same way that Sand Attack and Taunt aren't. Zap Pass isn't the same as this other shit, and I'd appreciate if we could stop acting like it's all the same -- and like Jask is normal
what the fuck Stairmaster.
The problem:
The enabler:
The beneficiary:
