(missed the direct because I was in a meeting that hour and entirely forgot about it) hahahahahahahahahahaha nice try you can't fool me with that shitty DeviantArt-ass fakemon design, that's so ugly and outlandish-
-oh
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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
(missed the direct because I was in a meeting that hour and entirely forgot about it) hahahahahahahahahahaha nice try you can't fool me with that shitty DeviantArt-ass fakemon design, that's so ugly and outlandish-
-oh
This is definitely based on 2D art for pose
(the head wing is skewed forcefully for silhouette)
We'll probably get the 2D one later
Leaks sadly confirm this was...a mistake
A rogue GF artist did this, even though Yoshida, Takao, Ohmura, and Sugimori didn't consider it. Also why no early OW sprites for her exist, while we do have many early ones for Ethan
Early Trainer sprites in 2008 initially used a more inverted color scheme based on Dawn, before ditching the pink for more red mid 2009
Takao Anno* (this is an assumption based on his TCG and none Pokemon art) seemed to draw Lyra slightly different in early concepts, but it notably isn't remotely based on Kris, and it's very close to the final design outside shoes and shade of blue otherwise
So RIP the Kris fans
Gonna admit up front that this is me being super petty and pedantic and it's more of a pop culture issue, but it's always bugged me how people just assume you have to specifically be 10 years old to be a trainer as a universal rule of the Pokémon world. Also that all the game MCs are 10 because that's what the anime said.
This has never been a thing in the games, with no lore that I am aware of specifying an appropriate age to start the journey. (Alola has 11 as the age for doing the Island Trials but that's the closest thing.) This is also contradicted in multiple entries with trainer classes like Youngsters and Preschoolers being opponents (shout-outs to the Preschoolers in BW2's postgame in particular); hell, SV has a toddler on the Elite Four.
Additionally, the game protagonists with canon ages are listed as 11 (Alola and I think Kanto?) and 12 (ORAS Brendan and May), with the protagonists of PLA being stated to look around 15ish and the Kalos MCs heavily implied to be 16 based on Emma's age and accompanying dialogue.
Basically what I'm saying is that it's dumb how this all stemmed from Ash specifically and taken as gospel for no reason, and it's even dumber how the exact age is slightly off from what the games seemingly intended.
This has never been a thing in the games, with no lore that I am aware of specifying an appropriate age to start the journey. (Alola has 11 as the age for doing the Island Trials but that's the closest thing.) This is also contradicted in multiple entries with trainer classes like Youngsters and Preschoolers being opponents (shout-outs to the Preschoolers in BW2's postgame in particular); hell, SV has a toddler on the Elite Four.
Additionally, the game protagonists with canon ages are listed as 11 (Alola and I think Kanto?) and 12 (ORAS Brendan and May), with the protagonists of PLA being stated to look around 15ish and the Kalos MCs heavily implied to be 16 based on Emma's age and accompanying dialogue.
Basically what I'm saying is that it's dumb how this all stemmed from Ash specifically and taken as gospel for no reason, and it's even dumber how the exact age is slightly off from what the games seemingly intended.
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The consistent depiction of the Pokémon MC as a child is increasingly frustrating. While the intended experience is for players like in Gen 1 to explore the Pokémon world, this approach can feel limiting and repetitive.
The MC being a kid only matters when rivals are also children. If the MC were an adult, defeating young trainers would feel less meaningful, highlighting that the child's perspective is more about maintaining balanced competition than story depth.
The only story relevance for the MC being a child may be in the Teal Mask, with Carmine and her grandfather, as a child’s perspective justifies their compliance. An adult MC might question hiding the truth, which can impact the story's outcomes. Still, this is minor and rests more on assumed themes than the main narrative.
I should mention that the MC, being a child, worked for Gen 1, where Giovanni mentions how a child like Red/ would never understand what he aims to achieve. The reason is that Red is a child who is fascinated with exploring the world of Kanto and making friends with Pokémon, whereas Giovanni, as an adult, focuses on monetizing Pokémon for profit and business, a topic that irl adults would be focused on nowadays.
Things come to mind when it comes to annoyances:
- The lack of reusable TMs in Gens 1-4 discourages team experimentation, since you feel pressured to save TMs for long-term team members. This makes it inconvenient to try new Pokémon, given you're limited to six, including an HM slave. While I consider it a minor annoyance since I haven't played much post-game, this rule still restricts how freely you can build your team.
- I wish the games included voice acting, as it could intensify key moments and character emotions, like Kieran's rage or Arven's worry. While most games I play lack extensive voice acting and I understand the developer's reasons from interviews, its absence still feels like a missed chance to heighten the story's stakes.
- The removal of the Roost TM in Gen 9 significantly reduced team-building options for many Pokémon, as they can no longer easily access reliable recovery. This change nerfed a lot of Pokémon—Charizard, Scizor, and Hydreigon, for example, lost the ability to run defensive sets, while Staraptor and Honchkrow struggle with their frailty without Roost. Though Salamence and Dragonite retains Roost due to natural learning, it feels unfair that most Pokémon are limited in their roles because of one change.
Also Re: Lying to Kieren, adults are fully capable of lying in situations where they shouldn't be. Chances are Pokemon But For Adults! would have various details changed but the conceit of keeping the truth from Kieren would likely not be one of them. Heck just from facial expressions even the child* MC is clearly a little put down by the situation.
*Strictly speaking we're Teens in SV, Carmine really tries to underline that our demographic is slightly older than Kieren while still not being adults. Probably a vague 15-17 range with Kieren being like a year younger because that feels like standard "slightly older sibling, but not THAT much older" behavior
*Strictly speaking we're Teens in SV, Carmine really tries to underline that our demographic is slightly older than Kieren while still not being adults. Probably a vague 15-17 range with Kieren being like a year younger because that feels like standard "slightly older sibling, but not THAT much older" behavior
The impression I got out of SV DLC there is that Carmine is 2-3 years older than Kieran and your MC falls either around his range or in-between the two (the outfits and mannerisms give off a younger air than the more overtly teenaged Unova MCs, so it's hard to judge sometimes). The Main school gang I think are implicitly in different years as well (Arven strikes me as the oldest of the Main Quartet for example). There is some age variance, but I don't think it's meant to introduce much in terms of power dynamics besides the explicitly older-sibling relationship Carmine has with Kieran. The MC's befriending and re-befriending Kieran is the central relationship to that story and Carmine still kind of acts more like a big sibling/senior to you (calling the shots on the Ogerpon secret and retrieving the Masks from the revived Three) than a peer enough that I can't see the story without the MC being closer to Kieran's age than hers.
I would argue that the Teal Mask/Indigo Disk is a story that does lean very heavily on the Protagonist being a child/teen compared to something like BW or SM being very doable with adult casts. The primary interpersonal conflict of the SV DLC stories is Kieran befriending and subsequently resenting the PC for main character syndrome and getting a lot of things he hoped for, becoming extremely hostile and callous towards others trying to prove himself better than you. While these ARE behaviors you could write with an adult character, it's much easier to forgive/come back from behaviors like this in a younger character who's more impressionable and lacks life experience. A ~14 year old having a crisis of "what makes you special? Nobody likes me unless I'm strong and MAKE them respect me" is probably a pretty relatable memory or experience for that age, but if older it'd look extremely immature and is often a trait you're supposed to feel cathartic "beating out" of them in other RPGs. I'll go as far as to argue that SV's DLC is one of the few narratives they've written for Pokemon that doesn't simply "work" with a child-teenage cast, but is written in such a way that it actually benefits/needs the primary characters in that age range.
this is just a continuation of my previous line of thought but i never really... understood wanting to be an adult in pokemon.
theyre Not going to make more mature games, thats not what the franchise is about (and all their "mature" games are still very kids coded they just tend to be written better or look edgy lmfao).
and if its about "representation"... listen im a sjw i think pokemon needs more dark skin colors and black hairstyles that dont look like dogshit ass and also theyre still quite racist sometimes. but you cannot convince me to give a shit about age representation. especially when the option people want is "young adult" aka The Most Common Age for a game protagonist to be. ill start giving a fuck when people ask to be 80 year olds
theyre Not going to make more mature games, thats not what the franchise is about (and all their "mature" games are still very kids coded they just tend to be written better or look edgy lmfao).
and if its about "representation"... listen im a sjw i think pokemon needs more dark skin colors and black hairstyles that dont look like dogshit ass and also theyre still quite racist sometimes. but you cannot convince me to give a shit about age representation. especially when the option people want is "young adult" aka The Most Common Age for a game protagonist to be. ill start giving a fuck when people ask to be 80 year olds
BASED
Throw in some Old Gay men I'm sold!
youre speaking my language now brother
I'm going to pull an AKSHUALLY, but Roost was actually removed from learnsets in generation 8.
People on smogon never noticed because they play with transfers allowed, something that isn't reflected in the official formats which havent allowed transfers since gen 5, but Defog, Toxic, Knock Off, Roost and more moves were cut from most movesets last generation already. The only notable cut gen 9 actually did was Scald.
The Roost thing reminded of a weird quirk of the move that's always bugged me: it only temporarily negates the Flying-type on the user, with nothing to suppress Ground immunity. This means Pokémon with Levitate (most notably the Latis, but there are a couple others) can just use it with no downsides due to this super obvious oversight.
iirc the games even have a specific flag in place to determine if a Pokémon is grounded, so it's not like it would have been super complicated from a programming perspective to make the move check for that.
Pokemon's idea of what old is baffles me. Hisui and Lucius are both said to be in the ancient past, yet Legends Arceus takes place in the 1870s, while Lucius was out doing his adventuring or whatever in the 1920s. Old, sure, but you wouldn't call Through the Looking-Glass or Steamboat Willie ancient.
Meanwhile Scream Tail is allegedly from the time of single cell organisms.
Meanwhile Scream Tail is allegedly from the time of single cell organisms.
People's conception of time is kind of fucked up in general so ~100-200 years often gets dropped in the ancient bin because wow, thats a lot of years, even though if you think about it logically it's barely one to two life times.
This goes double when a setting is ostensibly contemporary but does not give any actual years, so now everything is doubly vague relative to each other.
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The fact that Magikarp still evolves into Gyarados at level 20.
It's a blatant sign of the inexplicable refusal to change a Pokemon's evolution level in general across generations, but it's especially apparent and eye-widening in this particular instance, because of the simple fact of the matter that....due to how weak Magikarp is, it's still made available very early on in the games- usually as soon as the first fishing rod becomes available. And yet, its evolution level hasn't changed to accomodate the strength of its evolution....or most importantly, the fact that gaining exp for your mons since gen 1 has only become easier and more readily accessible than ever.
Why is all this so problematic? That's around the level range that other similarly weak earlygame mons, like most earlygame rodents/birds/bugs, evolve at- with the rodents often becoming fully evolved at that level range, just like gyarados itself. Except...even a simple glance at their stats, is enough to suggest that Gyarados is FAR and above the power level of any of the usual earlygame "Jagens"/carries like Raticate, Fearow or Beedrill. Its power level is far more suitable to the high lv30s/early lv40s instead. One could argue that the lack of stabs for a long time might keep it in check, except its sheer stats tower above the majority of mons found around the lv20-early 30s area by so much that it can easily get away with weak, non-stab moves anyway. And this isn't accounting for its early access to Thrash, which gives it a strong enough move going off its high attack stat to overpower most things in its path- especially after the move's bp buff in gen 4 onward. And then there's dragon rage just in case raw power is somehow not already enough to be accurate to its dex entries. And apparently the more recent gens even gave it waterfall by level up early on anyway? I mean yeah, it's lore accurate and fitting to the mon, but also....lmao. This isn't even accounting for its Intimidate ability giving it not only added amounts of bulk on its otherwise-weaker side, but also lets it contribute to battles without even getting moves off itself. Speaking of moves, dragon dance can also allow it to just sweep the majority of teams with just a few boosts- which it can easily accumulate between its bulk, intimidate, and relative lack of weaknesses (which aren't impossible to work around, either). And ice fang/the earthquake tm (if willing to invest it in the earlier gens) gives it basically-perfect coverage to further facilitate such sweeps.
Moving slightly away from the above main point, its dex entries state how it uses destructive beams to evaporate anything in its path of rampage- and it certainly has the movepool to support it, with several elemental beams to complement its water stab, on par with fellow serpentine dragon line of Dragonite....except unlike the latter, Gyarados did not maintain the special attack stat to make use of them. With a pitiful special attack stat, all of the awesome coverage options at its disposal (including its strongest flying stab, hurricane in the modern gens!) are left unused, and the mon is forced to make do with much fewer, lower bp coverage options off its higher attack stat. It just feels like such a disappointing waste, especially since it could've added a new dimension to an already-powerful and popular mon- allowing it to make full use of the potential offered by its vast movepool. And its mega evolution didn't even do anything to address this, and instead just chose to further amplify the mon's strengths further. (which is an overall good approach given said strengths are already potent enough as is, but....) (btw did you know mega Gyarados has the exact same defensive stats as fellow dark type Umbreon, with only 1 less point in defense? Well now you do)
It's a blatant sign of the inexplicable refusal to change a Pokemon's evolution level in general across generations, but it's especially apparent and eye-widening in this particular instance, because of the simple fact of the matter that....due to how weak Magikarp is, it's still made available very early on in the games- usually as soon as the first fishing rod becomes available. And yet, its evolution level hasn't changed to accomodate the strength of its evolution....or most importantly, the fact that gaining exp for your mons since gen 1 has only become easier and more readily accessible than ever.
Why is all this so problematic? That's around the level range that other similarly weak earlygame mons, like most earlygame rodents/birds/bugs, evolve at- with the rodents often becoming fully evolved at that level range, just like gyarados itself. Except...even a simple glance at their stats, is enough to suggest that Gyarados is FAR and above the power level of any of the usual earlygame "Jagens"/carries like Raticate, Fearow or Beedrill. Its power level is far more suitable to the high lv30s/early lv40s instead. One could argue that the lack of stabs for a long time might keep it in check, except its sheer stats tower above the majority of mons found around the lv20-early 30s area by so much that it can easily get away with weak, non-stab moves anyway. And this isn't accounting for its early access to Thrash, which gives it a strong enough move going off its high attack stat to overpower most things in its path- especially after the move's bp buff in gen 4 onward. And then there's dragon rage just in case raw power is somehow not already enough to be accurate to its dex entries. And apparently the more recent gens even gave it waterfall by level up early on anyway? I mean yeah, it's lore accurate and fitting to the mon, but also....lmao. This isn't even accounting for its Intimidate ability giving it not only added amounts of bulk on its otherwise-weaker side, but also lets it contribute to battles without even getting moves off itself. Speaking of moves, dragon dance can also allow it to just sweep the majority of teams with just a few boosts- which it can easily accumulate between its bulk, intimidate, and relative lack of weaknesses (which aren't impossible to work around, either). And ice fang/the earthquake tm (if willing to invest it in the earlier gens) gives it basically-perfect coverage to further facilitate such sweeps.
Moving slightly away from the above main point, its dex entries state how it uses destructive beams to evaporate anything in its path of rampage- and it certainly has the movepool to support it, with several elemental beams to complement its water stab, on par with fellow serpentine dragon line of Dragonite....except unlike the latter, Gyarados did not maintain the special attack stat to make use of them. With a pitiful special attack stat, all of the awesome coverage options at its disposal (including its strongest flying stab, hurricane in the modern gens!) are left unused, and the mon is forced to make do with much fewer, lower bp coverage options off its higher attack stat. It just feels like such a disappointing waste, especially since it could've added a new dimension to an already-powerful and popular mon- allowing it to make full use of the potential offered by its vast movepool. And its mega evolution didn't even do anything to address this, and instead just chose to further amplify the mon's strengths further. (which is an overall good approach given said strengths are already potent enough as is, but....) (btw did you know mega Gyarados has the exact same defensive stats as fellow dark type Umbreon, with only 1 less point in defense? Well now you do)
I know people prefer it to how it was back in the SM era, but I still stand by the current marketing strategy of mainline Pokemon games to be atrocious. So here's a rant about it I wanted to post a long while ago:
I would have never bought SV if it wasn't because of a combination of leaks and Paldea being based in Spain. I understand not wanting to show Area Zero or all the Paradoxes, but it still feels like they barely showed anything that made the game truly stand out.
I'm experiencing something similar with ZA, only that this time I actually hate the leaks but trust LA's team enough to try out the game. But seriously, even if it's not my favourite gimmick anymore, how have they been able to fuck up the return of Megas so much? They have been gone for more than a decade, but only in the core games. The initial Corocoro reveal showed 6 very varied ones (a starter, an iconic legendary already shown before that, the very popular Lucario and Absol, and the obscure Mawile) and even ORAS later was pretty hype by showing the other Hoenn starters and a Mythical. Then in ZA we have gotten...one. Woah, so crazy. It isn't like the game can already be preordered since a while ago and it releases in October.
Seriously, they keep promoting Megas as returning...but only with old ones, even in the anime. I don't feel any hype or anticipation like this. There is a middle point between revealing Silvally (!?) and just showing the bare minimum. I know that people are still going to buy the games like crazy so they probably don't need to change anything at all, and I'm not asking for story details to be revealed but come on, we have gotten to the point that even the cover was hidden for months despite not having anything that spoilery on it, there is not a single new Mega there. I love Mega Lucario, but I was able to use it in plenty of spinoffs, just because I couldn't use it in SWSH, LA and SV it doesn't mean I will get crazily hyped for doing it again. I don't need it to be the main focus in the anime for a second time (specially not when it feels so incredibly forced). It's a weird limbo of Megas not having really been gone completely for long enough for me to be desperate for them, but also not seeming like they are making a big deal about them again. If ZA had been released after ORAS, I would still have been genuinely worried that they only showed one new Mega.
It's what I like to call the Zacian/Zamazenta effect: gen 7 didn't fully reveal Solgaleo and Lunala's cards in the TCG, but there was a reason for that, it would spoil they were evolutions of Cosmoem. But then the gen 8 doggos got the same treatment for no reason just because their Steel type was not revealed. And the same happened with the Raidons. Call me crazy but I don't think the legendary's typing is something you should hide as a spoiler (specially when in the games themselves they are part of structured cutscene-like battles so you won't even have a moment when you need to figure out their typing yourself). Even worse is that they don't reveal the final starter evolutions before launch anymore which I find pretty stupid because even children probably want to make that decision. I can give regional forms a pass since you at least can expect what kind of design it will be, but with fully new ones? I love Fuecoco but I'm very lucky to also like Skeledirge because it's such a radical change in design.
And yes, that also means I'm extremely annoyed we don't get Pokemon cameos before their actual generation anymore. Not only was it good marketing for the games it also made which would be pretty unremarkable designs be a lot more memorable. All in all, this just means that it's more than understandable people get so crazy about Pokemon leaks- even if I wanted to avoid them, I can't, because I want to know who my starter will be. And I know I'm not the only one in that boat.
I would have never bought SV if it wasn't because of a combination of leaks and Paldea being based in Spain. I understand not wanting to show Area Zero or all the Paradoxes, but it still feels like they barely showed anything that made the game truly stand out.
I'm experiencing something similar with ZA, only that this time I actually hate the leaks but trust LA's team enough to try out the game. But seriously, even if it's not my favourite gimmick anymore, how have they been able to fuck up the return of Megas so much? They have been gone for more than a decade, but only in the core games. The initial Corocoro reveal showed 6 very varied ones (a starter, an iconic legendary already shown before that, the very popular Lucario and Absol, and the obscure Mawile) and even ORAS later was pretty hype by showing the other Hoenn starters and a Mythical. Then in ZA we have gotten...one. Woah, so crazy. It isn't like the game can already be preordered since a while ago and it releases in October.
Seriously, they keep promoting Megas as returning...but only with old ones, even in the anime. I don't feel any hype or anticipation like this. There is a middle point between revealing Silvally (!?) and just showing the bare minimum. I know that people are still going to buy the games like crazy so they probably don't need to change anything at all, and I'm not asking for story details to be revealed but come on, we have gotten to the point that even the cover was hidden for months despite not having anything that spoilery on it, there is not a single new Mega there. I love Mega Lucario, but I was able to use it in plenty of spinoffs, just because I couldn't use it in SWSH, LA and SV it doesn't mean I will get crazily hyped for doing it again. I don't need it to be the main focus in the anime for a second time (specially not when it feels so incredibly forced). It's a weird limbo of Megas not having really been gone completely for long enough for me to be desperate for them, but also not seeming like they are making a big deal about them again. If ZA had been released after ORAS, I would still have been genuinely worried that they only showed one new Mega.
It's what I like to call the Zacian/Zamazenta effect: gen 7 didn't fully reveal Solgaleo and Lunala's cards in the TCG, but there was a reason for that, it would spoil they were evolutions of Cosmoem. But then the gen 8 doggos got the same treatment for no reason just because their Steel type was not revealed. And the same happened with the Raidons. Call me crazy but I don't think the legendary's typing is something you should hide as a spoiler (specially when in the games themselves they are part of structured cutscene-like battles so you won't even have a moment when you need to figure out their typing yourself). Even worse is that they don't reveal the final starter evolutions before launch anymore which I find pretty stupid because even children probably want to make that decision. I can give regional forms a pass since you at least can expect what kind of design it will be, but with fully new ones? I love Fuecoco but I'm very lucky to also like Skeledirge because it's such a radical change in design.
And yes, that also means I'm extremely annoyed we don't get Pokemon cameos before their actual generation anymore. Not only was it good marketing for the games it also made which would be pretty unremarkable designs be a lot more memorable. All in all, this just means that it's more than understandable people get so crazy about Pokemon leaks- even if I wanted to avoid them, I can't, because I want to know who my starter will be. And I know I'm not the only one in that boat.
(double posting because I don't want such a humonguos single message, sorry for floodong the thread anyways)
Then again I guess like this may be GF' compromise when it comes to a playable past since they want Poke Balls to always be a thing, and high tecnology has always been part of the identity of the series anyways (which just makes it even funnier that the fandom couldn't accept the SV time machine)
I do understand them not wanting to change things like the National Dex entry- it doesn't show up in the games anymore for non-datamining players, it would be marketing hell everytime a new evolution is introduced, and would just be very confusing and not future proof at all- but they have changed evolution levels before in LA, and with a starter no less, so surely it isn't that crazy to try to do it with others? Gyarados is very iconic, but I don't think even with the current powercreep players would get upset they can't get it at level 20 anymore.
this is particularly weird given Japan' development as a society, they are pretty well aware of how ridiculously fast their culture changed in a small timeframe (there are even fiction works that use that as a setting like Gintama). I understand when someone not very familiar with Japan sees LA and goes "omg so ancient, like the middle ages or something" (I have even seen some people complaining about the camera photo being "out of place") but I feel like Japanese people should be more concious of that -or not, my country had a dictatorship just 3 generations ago but most people seem completely oblivious about how bad it actually was...-
Then again I guess like this may be GF' compromise when it comes to a playable past since they want Poke Balls to always be a thing, and high tecnology has always been part of the identity of the series anyways (which just makes it even funnier that the fandom couldn't accept the SV time machine)
This is also probably one of the best examples of it, even more than gen 5 mons ridiculous evolutions. Getting to level 20 was painful before your mons literally got EXP when you catch something. But Magikarp is supposed to be so commonplace and "useless" it's on every body of water in the regions.
I do understand them not wanting to change things like the National Dex entry- it doesn't show up in the games anymore for non-datamining players, it would be marketing hell everytime a new evolution is introduced, and would just be very confusing and not future proof at all- but they have changed evolution levels before in LA, and with a starter no less, so surely it isn't that crazy to try to do it with others? Gyarados is very iconic, but I don't think even with the current powercreep players would get upset they can't get it at level 20 anymore.
Yeah, they completely overcorrected on gen 7s reveals from way to much to absolutely nothing. I straight up had zero interest in Legends ZA because there was literally nothing new shown to us.
We didn’t even know there was gonna be new Megas until mega Dragonite was revealed.
They don’t need to show off everything that’s new, but at the minimum, we should go into these games knowing the starters, the legendaries, and at least 12-15 brand new Mons.
I'd say 18 others, one showcasing each type.