Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Ok, so this is like, the 2nd time we do this, right?
ogerpon-wellspring-mask-plush-plush-pokemon-center-758552_1024x1024.jpg

Ogerpon-Wellspring has been a topic of controversy for quite a while. If you don't know why, it's because between it's solid attack and speed, excellent type combination, Water Absorb, useful coverage, and 2 great sets in Swords Dance and Offensive Pivot, it makes it so that it's presence in the metagame shapes the way many players approach teambuilding, and every good player must take it into account. It also particulary hinders certain playstyles, namely Rain teams and Stall, these 2 playstyles while not horrible, they aren't in great positions in the metagame right now, and one factor that is most likely holding them back is their poor matchup into Wellspring. Now, this in itself isn't necesseraly backbreaking in itself, but keeping Ogerpon-Wellspring in mind on top of other threats like Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Mega Scizor, Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, among others during teambuilding is near impossible. With Ogerpon-Wellspring out of the picture, it would give players more breathing room in the builder. Rain Teams would be more viable, as they wouldn't have to worry about Wellspring switching in a nullifying their Flip Turns or Liquidations, and Stall teams no longer need to add mons like Amoongus, Dragonite or Tangrowth and focus on their other threats to prepare walls for. Despite making it sound like I am in favor of a ban, the thing is that I am not fully sold on it. I do think Ogerpon-Wellspring does bring some unique tools to the table that simply cannot be replicated by most mons. It is a fantastic wallbreaker with a neat defensive profile and a good movepool that allows for solid customization when teambuilding. It's water immunity is phenomal for teams that may have a hard time against Rain for example. It's also not an unstoppable monster, it's 110 speed while decent, does leave it vulnerable to faster threats like Tornadus-Therian, Zamazenta and various Scarfers. Both Offense and Hyper Offense teams in general don't tend to struggle much against Ogerpon-Wellspring, as there capable of putting enough pressure on it. Without it, many team structures wouldn't be able to function, and some players don't wanna see playstyles like Rain and Stall become more dominant (This part is just speculation tho). So imo, there is a solid argument to whether ban Ogerpon W, or to not Ban it. If you ask me, I am slightly more inclined towards banning simply to give the teambuilding some more room to breathe, but I am not entirely sold on it, I do see the pros of not banning it as well...



...spring.
Ba-dum-tss-meme.gif

(Ok, that might be a new low for me).
Anyways, I hope you found this interesting and I would like to hear your reasonings as to which side you are.
 
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I'm surprised Ogerpon-Wellspring is the one who gets a suspect test when Gliscor had a higher score on the latest survey by the qualified pool of survey takers, who consist of most of the players who will be getting reqs. OU straight up ignores the survey answers of the general playerbase with the qualified pool of survey takers always being the demographic that is looked at regarding tiering action.
 
I'm surprised Ogerpon-Wellspring is the one who gets a suspect test when Gliscor had a higher score on the latest survey by the qualified pool of survey takers, who consist of most of the players who will be getting reqs. OU straight up ignores the survey answers of the general playerbase with the qualified pool of survey takers always being the demographic that is looked at regarding tiering action.
This just in: guy who has tour results and has a more resolute understanding of the game is weighed greater than timmyturner22 loading grafaiai and trevenant in 1100
 
Hot Take: Gliscor is absolutely fine.

Now that Roaring Moon is gone kyurem and other mons that easily destroy gliscpex are rising up, and it feels like gliscor is on a downward trend because of that, but even in moon meta, gliscor was the glue that held balance together in all that noise.
I think we should always be hesitating to ban mons that facilitate balance, and I feel that a good chunk of people who are rating gliscor highly are doing it because it's annoying, not because it's broken, and I don't really think being annoying makes it banworthy at all.
 
I am very surprised by the suspect result. I guess the (not) majority wants the meta to be autopilot HO.

Seriously though, waterpon both enables HO to break bulkier builds and is severely countered by HO, which is imo the definition of over centralizing. But we are past that discussion.

Now, once people get sick of mashing our 5 sweepers into their 5 sweepers to see who wins more boosted speed ties with volcarona or dragonite, I would hope a volcarona suspect is on the cards. I feel it to be justified as volcarona has a set for everything (bugZ swarm, who needs coverage), and, unlike waterpon, it will 6-0 your team (maybe with slight assistance from waterpon), unless your volcarona clicks QD first and wins. Very skillful interactions on the forecast. I would encourage a volcarona suspect test very soon, as there is little to no point in “seeing how the meta develops”.

Now for the metagame discussion, here is how you should teambuild from now on: waterpon, sub bugZ volcarona, dual wingbeat dragonite, add diancie and ghold for hazards and gambit or whatever boosted priority sweeper you want. Or pp stall dd kyurem so the ND ladder will have as many players as waterpon has counters.

Hopefully one day people will wake up and realize that HO (just as stall) should be a niche playstyle mainly feasting on poorly built teams and not a meta defining force.
 
I am very surprised by the suspect result. I guess the (not) majority wants the meta to be autopilot HO.
Not really, the DNB side just doesn't want the meta to devolve into uninteractive VoltTurn balances and the like and chose to keep a balance breaker around to help deal with that issue.

Now, once people get sick of mashing our 5 sweepers into their 5 sweepers to see who wins more boosted speed ties with volcarona or dragonite, I would hope a volcarona suspect is on the cards. I feel it to be justified as volcarona has a set for everything (bugZ swarm, who needs coverage), and, unlike waterpon, it will 6-0 your team (maybe with slight assistance from waterpon), unless your volcarona clicks QD first and wins. Very skillful interactions on the forecast. I would encourage a volcarona suspect test very soon, as there is little to no point in “seeing how the meta develops”.
The meta had ample space for creativity with teams spanning from offense to fat and even Stall (although Runo has basically optimized it from my experience), and it will continue to have said space with Waterpon here to stay. No need to fearmonger about a non-existent threat.
 
No need to fearmonger about a non-existent threat.
non-existent threat? volcarona is probably one of the biggest reasons HO is painfully dominant at the moment, particularly subswarm bug z sets. if you're running balance then your answer of choice is likely toxapex, which either gets sub clicked on it while it tries to toxic then quiver danced on, damages it into range of swarm then subsequently takes 80% from +1 savage spin out, or dies to +1 shattered psyche
if you're running literally anything else you have no hope once it sets up once unless you wanna use your own volcarona

[beware of upcoming wellspring rant]

how can genuinely nobody see the clear path the metagame will be going after the main threat to the duo of wellspring and volc (roaring moon) was subsequently banned for being too overbearing as well??? it genuinely baffles me why people voted to keep wellspring in the tier if it is so clearly unhealthy and toxic to the metagame around it, but i guess the mindless HO spammers win again. the outcome of the wellspring suspect is appalling to see that so many qualified players either just don't care about the metagame or are too utterly blind to see how unhealthy this pokemon is.
 
Not really, the DNB side just doesn't want the meta to devolve into uninteractive VoltTurn balances and the like and chose to keep a balance breaker around to help deal with that issue.


The meta had ample space for creativity with teams spanning from offense to fat and even Stall (although Runo has basically optimized it from my experience), and it will continue to have said space with Waterpon here to stay. No need to fearmonger about a non-existent threat.

Half agreed, the meta does have ample space for creativity with many archetypes, its just that they have to work extra in the builder to beat the dominant HO, and they usually have to make do with “I beat X sweeper mon except for Y set/coverage”, which is literally the opposite of how a healthy meta should function. HO is the least skill demanding playstyle, both in builder and in battle. Synergies in the builder dont have to be considered in depth, positioning in battle is mostly reduced to “let X die, bring in Y for free setup. Repeat”. Such an archetype should be valid, but not leading the meta, which it mostly is. “Ample space for creativity” doesnt really mean “fighting on equal footing”, especially not for the fatter non stall builds.

Regarding volt turn and the elephant in the room which you didnt mention, mola, gen 8 is considered one of the healthier and most enjoyable metas, with future port being an incredibly strong part of it.

Volt turn strats literally invite you to beat them using what you already have available, not something decided in the builder. You can run ferro to cover waterpon and get smoked by superpower, thats a builder decision.

Volt turn (more specifically mola volt turn) can be beaten by rocks, knock off (both of which are available on pretty much every team), anything strong enough to outdamage regenerator (even tusk counts if you play it right), underspeeding the mola, status, predicting volt switches, etc.

Most of these tools are available without specifically building for mola and employing them requires skill. No need to fearmonger about a non-existent threat.

You dont need much skill if your volcarona has the right set to sweep. Finding these holes is usually the challenge of HO, but waterpon makes the process way too consistent, as it is a dedicated balance breaker which gives up absolutely nothing in return. No recoil, no contact, no glass cannon design, no punishing speed tier. Now your volcarona doesnt need the perfect set, since your waterpon just bonked the pex with power whip and critted a zapdos to death.
 
Oh man, if Wellspring got banned then Alomomola would somehow find a way to become the first T Rank on the VR (higher than S rank), and then become Queen of NDOU until its Wish Passing reign of terror is overthrown by a legion of Nasty Plot HP Electric Landos.


Anyways, am I the only one who never really understood the Volcarona hate? Like, yeah it's strong, but at the end of the day it still is a bit of a matchup fish. It can't really slot in the moves it needs to beat all the extremely common checks that roam the metagame (:heatran: :moltres: :toxapex: etc.) and it struggles to find setup opportunities against more aggressive teams. For every team Volcarona annihilates, it sucks into another. It's a matchup fish, albeit a pretty good one. I don't necessarily think that warrants a ban, as many teams can find a way to deal with it, simply by sponging the damage with Moltres and throwing out Hurricane in return, or crippling it with something like Toxic as it tries to set up.

I personally think the Swarm Z set's strength is a bit overhyped. It gets some ludicrous calcs, but not without the downside of being quad weak to Stealth Rocks, and needing to set up and drain its HP to get that damage. Only being able to run your two STAB moves is rough when you run into Sp. Def Moltres or Heatran (Flash Fire + quad resist go brrrrrrr). That quad weakness to rocks is also something you can't just overlook. I see a lot of people say that our great removal options push non-Boots Volcarona over the edge, but I don't really agree with that. Our removal options, while undoubtedly great, still have reasonable counterplay. Diancie can be counter-lead by Speed Booster Treads or Tusk, and Terapagos and Tusk, the best HO spinners in the format, can still be foiled by Gholdengo. I think that sacking Gholdengo to break Terapagos' Shell or stop Tusk from spinning is absolutely worth it if you think that the opponent has a Volcarona without HDB in the back. As long as Gholdengo is in the format, I don't think Volcarona is much of an issue. In fact, I personally find Boots Volcarona to be scarier than no Boots because it can't be punished by hazards.
 
Disagree with what Dead By Daylight said, queuing Ditto on Stall is desperation not a norm. Glad it's being legitimized on stall but God help you if you try to build a balance team with it LOL. Waterpon being legal is annoying but not the end of the world. There's probably some things that are worth trying out more such as Mega Venusaur or heavier emphasis on Tornadus-T Balance teams. My personal favorite Ditto seems like a nice choice when offensive teams are very very potent but as I implied just now, you might as well need the scientists who worked on the Manhattan project to figure out a good team with it. Other niche stuff like Hydrapple, Buzzwole, Tangrowth, they are dogshit mons not worth using 99/100 times unless you again had a team of scientists working on these teams.

Truth is, working with what we got right now is probably fine. Spamming soft checks like Phys Def Twave Gholdengo, PhysDef Zapdos, Zamazenta, Ferrothorn, and Dragonite / Mega Latios is fine probably. Alternatively not running balance and moving to more offensive playstyles are also probably fine, encouraged even because why risk yourself to a Cudgel crit without hard counterplay or multiple fail-safes? Why reinvent the wheel here at all? If Buzzwole or Ditto becomes a decent mon its not because you forced it on a team for Ogerpon-W lol. I know Ditto is solid because I'm using it for a hell of a lot more than that. Buzzwole has that potential too, but get out of this tunnel vision mentality that you would need it just for Ogerpon-W.

I won't comment on Volcarona or whatever the new HO flavor of the month is going to be but if people are happy with the level of consistency of their teams as of right now than all the more power to you. You'll be able to put that to the test next ladder tournament or next individual tournament or just on the ladder in general.
 
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Serious question here: What is up with NatDex Gholdengo? I've seen some people treat it like Elmer's Glue with the way it holds the tier together, yet others treat it like a metagame tumor that has to be removed. I'm pretty 60/40 on it's presence to be honest, barely preffering it to stay.

I can sympathize with how some people think the Z sets are cringe along with Ghold's other privelages, but maybe this is just because i'm not psychoanalizing every minute detail of the tier currently, but I don't find Z Ghold that much of a bigger pain as far as Z usage than some other guys (Lele, RBolt, DNite, Zama if you got that dawg in you, Volcarona or Kartana). To me at least, Z Ghold is the only "Okay, that's pretty lame" part of the mon to me. Not gonna sugarcoat it and say Defensive Ghold is pretty heat and I would hate to lose that.

Is it actually cool or cringe?
 
Oh wow, Runo seems to have been playing Deltarune? I really did miss a lot while I was gone.

Anyways, speaking of Deltarune (kinda), I've been having a lot of fun with this set lately...

:sv/aegislash:

The Black Knife (Aegislash) (F) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

The Black Knife used Never-Ending Nightmare!
(The opposing Moltres lost 61% of its health!)
The opposing Moltres fainted!


SWOON


This Aegislash is part of a team I'm testing. My goal is to build around this Z set. I think Aegislash has a few merits over Gholdengo, the main ones being that it can run mixed attacks, and the fact that it has priority. The form switch might give you the chance to stave off an attack before retaliating with the Z, which is nice. I do think I can get this Aegislash set to work, and once I feel like my Aegislash team is adequate, I plan on writing an RMT on it. It's actually pretty fun to use!
 
the outcome of the wellspring suspect is appalling to see that so many qualified players either just don't care about the metagame or are too utterly blind to see how unhealthy this pokemon is.
What?
I am very confident that these qualified players voted dnb for a reason was because they had the foresight that Waterpon wasn't actually what was causing the problems in the tier. Imo it's quite fine in the meta rn
Serious question here: What is up with NatDex Gholdengo? I've seen some people treat it like Elmer's Glue with the way it holds the tier together, yet others treat it like a metagame tumor that has to be removed. I'm pretty 60/40 on it's presence to be honest, barely preffering it to stay.

I can sympathize with how some people think the Z sets are cringe along with Ghold's other privelages, but maybe this is just because i'm not psychoanalizing every minute detail of the tier currently, but I don't find Z Ghold that much of a bigger pain as far as Z usage than some other guys (Lele, RBolt, DNite, Zama if you got that dawg in you, Volcarona or Kartana). To me at least, Z Ghold is the only "Okay, that's pretty lame" part of the mon to me. Not gonna sugarcoat it and say Defensive Ghold is pretty heat and I would hate to lose that.

Is it actually cool or cringe?
0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 265-313 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Z-hex btw
 
Not really, the DNB side just doesn't want the meta to devolve into uninteractive VoltTurn balances and the like and chose to keep a balance breaker around to help deal with that issue.
Imo, you certainly shouldn't vote DNB because of a problem that in theory could happen to the tier later, and if wellspring really is all that prevents uninteractive gameplay there are deeply rooted issues that should be addressed, and that doesn't tell us Wellspring isn't a problem on its own either. To be fair though i do recognise there is a legitimate argument to say that wellspring isn't broken - and the suspect ended, so we have to accept the result - however some arguments were uhh very worrying to see imo, to say the least.

For example, the existence of Alomomola probably played a role in the result when it shouldn't have, and it being brought up so much sometimes felt like a broken-checks-anything (or broken-checks-broken if you believe Mola is also a problem) kind of argument - imo you could even make the opposite argument that prepping for Wellspring indirectly makes Alomomola harder to prep for since you have limited teambuilding space, especially if Wellspring doesn't fit your team.

Now, Wellspring is here to stay, but imho it would be could if we reconsidered the validity of certain arguments that were brought, not just for the sake of Wellspring but for all suspects that are here to come. I also believe the disagreements around Wellspring run deeper than just deciding if this Pokemon should be banned or not, this is also about how we decide to ban or keep any suspected pokemon ever, and i think that discussing this broader topic would not be a bad idea.
 
Imo, you certainly shouldn't vote DNB because of a problem that in theory could happen to the tier later, and if wellspring really is all that prevents uninteractive gameplay there are deeply rooted issues that should be addressed, and that doesn't tell us Wellspring isn't a problem on its own either. To be fair though i do recognise there is a legitimate argument to say that wellspring isn't broken - and the suspect ended, so we have to accept the result - however some arguments were uhh very worrying to see imo, to say the least.
This is definitely fair - I voted DNB because I didn't find Wellspring broken. However, I also voted DNB for the secondary reason that I said in my post, which was wanting to prevent said teams from rising up. Additionally, saying that DNB voters wanted a meta with "autopilot HO" in control is just silly, and I believe a comment like the one I made is a fair response. I see where you are coming from, though, and I agree - future events should not hold nearly as much weight as they do currently in suspect reasoning.
 
I am very surprised by the suspect result. I guess the (not) majority wants the meta to be autopilot HO.

Seriously though, waterpon both enables HO to break bulkier builds and is severely countered by HO, which is imo the definition of over centralizing. But we are past that discussion.

Now, once people get sick of mashing our 5 sweepers into their 5 sweepers to see who wins more boosted speed ties with volcarona or dragonite, I would hope a volcarona suspect is on the cards. I feel it to be justified as volcarona has a set for everything (bugZ swarm, who needs coverage), and, unlike waterpon, it will 6-0 your team (maybe with slight assistance from waterpon), unless your volcarona clicks QD first and wins. Very skillful interactions on the forecast. I would encourage a volcarona suspect test very soon, as there is little to no point in “seeing how the meta develops”.

Now for the metagame discussion, here is how you should teambuild from now on: waterpon, sub bugZ volcarona, dual wingbeat dragonite, add diancie and ghold for hazards and gambit or whatever boosted priority sweeper you want. Or pp stall dd kyurem so the ND ladder will have as many players as waterpon has counters.

Hopefully one day people will wake up and realize that HO (just as stall) should be a niche playstyle mainly feasting on poorly built teams and not a meta defining force.
Escuchame, hijo (Listen to me, son), you're about to get debunked by me, so read carefully:

I don't think we want an HO autopilot meta. If anything, it seems to enable Balance more than HO. Sure, it can be used in HO, but I wouldn't call it a "must have" in that archetype. Besides, you said it yourself, "is severly countered by ho", so if this WAS an HO centric meta, wouldn't Ogerpon-Wellspring just see less usage, and possibly not even have a suspect test? While HO is in a alright spot atm, I really wouldn't call it anywhere near overcentralizing, but rather a more niche playstyle in a similar vain to Stall. (Also, the fact that you consider Volcarona being banworthy is kind of funny to me.) And no, I am NOT an Ho advocator, I do have the similar vision you have, where Balanced centric archetypes should flourish, while the more extreme ones like Stall and HO should be viable, but niche. And if you ask me, I think that's the spot where are currently in, with Balance and Bulky Offense being particularly very good right now. Hopefully, you see it the same way that I do.
 
Bildschirmfoto_29-7-2025_233424_www.smogon.com.jpeg

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: Post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-20-señorita.3767728/post-10650853

:Zamazenta: Thoughs:
Yeah, Wellspring isn't leaving anytime soon, thankfully so! I still don't understand why people were such agains keeping thing thins as "unbalanced" and "responsible for restricting the builder". Yes, Ogerpon is strong but even then she can't do everything at once: for example she CAN carry Superpower for one its checks, mainly Ferrothorn, but it preactivcally will be a sitting duck VS dragonite if she sticks with Superpower. Knock Off is useful and pretty strong, but it's not some godforsaken poweful move. Play Rough can be sloted too, but you become a sitting duck VS Ferrothorn. All I am saying is, that while Wellspring is a threat everyone should look out for, it's also not hard to deal with it. You have stuff like Scarfers, bulky Steel-Pókemon such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn, Dragon-Pókemon such as Kyurem and Dragonite and Terapagos, who always resists the first hit. Plus, its not like Pókemon DIE at the first hit they take form wellspring. Gliscor can STILL survive an unboosted Ivy Cudgel (not a critical one though) and Alomomola can take a Hron Leech and Power Whip (if the whip even hits). Moltres could also tank an unboosted Ivy Cudgel (not a critical one) and threaten it with either STAB Brave Bird or Hurricane or just pivot out with U-Turn.
 
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View attachment 760113
:Ogerpon-Wellspring: Post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-20-señorita.3767728/post-10650853

:Zamazenta: Thoughs:
Yeah, Wellspring isn't leaving anytime soon, thankfully so! I still don't understand why people were such agains keeping thing thins as "unbalanced" and "responsible for restricting the builder". Yes, Ogerpon is strong but even then she can't do everything at once: for example she CAN carry Superpower for one its checks, mainly Ferrothorn, but it preactivcally will be a sitting duck VS dragonite if she sticks with Superpower. Knock Off is useful and pretty strong, but it's not some godforsaken poweful move. Play Rough can be sloted too, but you become a sitting duck VS Ferrothorn. All I am saying is, that while Wellspring is a threat everyone should look out for, it's also not hard to deal with it. You have stuff like Scarfers, bulky Steel-Pókemon such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn, Dragon-Pókemon such as Kyurem and Dragonite and Terapagos, who always resists the first hit. Plus, its not like Pókemon DIE at the first hit they take form wellspring. Gliscor can STILL survive an unboosted Ivy Cudgel (not a critical one though) and Alomomola can take a Hron Leech and Power Whip (if the whip even hits). Moltres could also tank an unboosted Ivy Cudgel (not a critical one) and threaten it with either STAB Brave Bird or Hurricane or just pivot out with U-Turn.

As was said in the thread, you’re the one at the mercy of what 4th slot it’s running and unless you run two soft checks you’re playing roulette with what set it is. It’s an unpleasant dynamic. Corv is the only bulky steel that could not auto die to +2 but it’s also mid so i wouldn’t use it as an argument. Those other mons tanking unboosted hits once need max health and don’t want to be doing so since they also have to check other stuff.

But all this is moot since the test is over and what’s done is done. What’s better now and more productive is to focus on how to improve the tier going forwards, if people still deem it necessary anyways. And just get back to discussing the metagame in general whether trends or what people have been building with.
 
Seeing as wellspring isn’t going anywhere and in order to get back to the usual meta ideas, I strongly recommend everyone to give :beedrill-mega: a try. Y’all called it a shitmon before, but I have been doing quite well with it so hear me out.

It has one very very important niche: OHKOing wellspring with a faster uturn. This is the optimal way to threaten wellspring offensively, as you get to keep the momentum if your opponent decides to preserve their wellspring.

Other notes on mega bee: very fast mon positioned quite well against a good portion of the meta. Pjab or uturn and pjab later drops relevant threats like koko, zardy, mdiancie, mlop and others. Its speed and uturn lets it run circles around zama and chip down an otherwise hard mon to chip (hdb variant), knock off is guaranteed to remove items from relevant defensive mons which need them (lando, moltres, zapdos, mola) and its last moveslot can be pursuit or tspikes to give it utility and threat even when it is hard walled.

The mons which wall beedrill are very easy to abuse and your other team options should be designed to make progress against such mons. Something like specs kyurem, rbolt, and tapu lele enjoy having a corv, moltres, or tusk delivered to them on a silver platter.

I recommend running beedrill with something like aroma hatterene or tapu fini in order to deal with the threat of status from moltres and zapdos. Also, volt turn cores are especially effective and once the volt turn chain starts it is very obnoxious to deal with.

The knock+pursuit combo is especially unique coming from a very fast and elusive offensive mon, which can also add to the chip damage by clicking uturn afterwards.

The fairy resist and 4x fighting resist also means that the faster booster energy ival cannot ohko beedrill and moonblast choice locked scarf lele is also resisted, opening up the chance for a pjab or pursuit.
 
Considering I also got reqs and voted DNB, and I'm currently struck with immense boredom, I'll explain myself a bit more. For starters, I think it's easier to check than people think and it does have a degree of 4MSS that can make doing its job way worse in some mus.

Cudgel is mandatory, and so is grass stab. After that, you have SD if you want to really punch holes and then your coverage pick between Play rough, Superpower decides alot. Do you keel to ferrothorn? Or do you choose that hitting things like Dragonite, Mega Latios or Hydrapple to be more useful? Then you have trailblaze, and this has its own discussions. Toxapex exists and can threaten to toxic/haze it down if it picks grass stab = traiblaze. You could double dip, PWhip/HL&trailblaze isn't the worst thing ever, but now you DEFINITELY fold to Ferrothorn and the aforementioned dragons will still handle it. Going Pwhip makes priority approaches like Lopp and Kingambit easier to get off so I'm personally not a fan. People can see this as being able to pick and choose what you lose to, but it also can be seen as 4mss if your base fundamentals aren't good enough. Do you pick knock off, and half-measure it entirely?

Here, they are good enough to be a top-tier. Broken is another story though, and I do think the Pokemon that check Ogerpon are among the tiers most underrated. Hydrapple feasts on Glisc/Pex builds for breakfast while also being a regenerator pivot for alot of physical hitters like Zama. I've seen words like terrible thrown around at it's expense and I just don't see it, it's relatively specific but there's rarely a game where Hydrapple doesn't do anything. Mega Venusaur lacks regen but has a unique defense profile, it's clicks are very nice and can be a pain in the ass to switch into on the right MUs. Defensive Dnite is a mon I've mentioned before awhile back, and it's spectacular at checking Wellspring while also covering stuff like Rapid Strike, ice spinner notwithstanding. Even then there's stuff like Raging Bolt Thunderclaps, Zamazenta usually taking atleast 1 shot and being amazing, Sinistcha is surprisingly good and can run away with alot of games very quickly if its not treated with abundant caution, I can go on.

I think the biggest issue natdex has is probably itself, in a sense. I do think alot of the problems now are mostly things you can handle with just being a bit more flexible in the builder beyond current stuff and whatever new trend is goin in OU atm. The moment you try out more flex picks that have value (not shit like Mega Beedrill lmfao but like, actually good stuffs with good roles) you realize that atleast rn, nothing is rlly out of reach.
 
I actually quite like the metagame as it stands right now. While I don't love the effect Wellspring has on the builder, I also struggle to seriously justify a ban argument due to the multiple different forms of counterplay that are readily available to both offense and balance, not to mention how people have gotten better at denying setup altogether.

Not gonna focus on Wellspring though, since it's been thoroughly covered in this thread already. I've been experimenting with very fringy Pokemon recently in builder, and I've come across a couple of sets today that I feel may have some potential for further exploration for those that want to try out some new stuff.

:sv/weezing-galar:
Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Toxic Spikes / Flamethrower / Sludge Bomb

I think a lot of people think about Gweezing as a Neut Gas bot that also checks some Fighting-types and harasses stuff like Ghold and Gliscor. However, we do have Levitate slashed on the site, and in preparation for writing the Gweez analysis I felt obligated to build around the Levitate variant as well. What I found was a surprisingly solid defensive Pokemon that actually has myriad uses for bulky offense and offense teams. Compressing a switch in to both Ground- and Fighting-types that also makes progress through Rocky Helmet and status moves of your choice is seriously beneficial for slower, offensive teammates that are vulnerable to being revenge killed. Think Kingambit, Gholdengo, Raging Bolt, Tapu Koko, and that line of teammates. Flying-types also do this to an extent, but Galarian Weezing's ability to hold Rocky Helmet and its neutrality to Ice and Rock gives it enough separation from stuff like Torn-T and Zapdos. The last slot is very flexible too, you can run TSpikes to be annoying and support stuff like CM Clef, Flamethrower to catch some Steels on the switch, or Sludge Bomb to pressure Clefable trying to setup on you. The main issue of Levitate Gweezing is its reliance on Pain Split to do anything in terms of recovery, which is why this fits mostly on teams that want to play fast. This is quite a cool mon though, and the Levitate sets deserves more of a serious look in my opinion.

:sv/dhelmise:
Dhelmise @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots / Ghostium Z / Grassium Z / Meadow Plate?
Ability: Steelworker
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Synthesis

This thing came up in conversation in the NatDex room (apologies to Kris, who we accidentally pinged at least 15 times) and a couple of people decided to give it a try. What we found was a Pokemon that has some interesting defensive traits thanks to its decent typing and solid bulk while also being a pain in the neck to switch into. Something that this tier has sorely lacked is a form of hazard removal that properly switches into Waterpon. Tornadus-T is the closest thing, but it takes a ton as it comes in even if Waterpon hasn't set up yet, and you need to invest a significant amount into Special Attack to guarantee an OHKO with Hurricane, much less Bleakwind Storm. This is where Dhelmise comes in. The given EV spread always lives a +2 Waterpon Power Whip after Stealth Rock, while OHKOing it with Power Whip (or Never Ending Nightmare) if you run any of the aforementioned boosting items. You also have good odds to OHKO Alomomola (100% with Bloom Doom, almost 100% odds with Life Orb, and steadily decreasing with the others), severely threaten hazard setters like Ting-Lu, Gliscor, and Great Tusk, and can be annoying to get rid of because there just isn't much that switches into this. With Synthesis you stick around to actually remove hazards and check some stuff longer term as well. Offensive teams without Kingambit often have to resort to trading with this since most of what OHKOes it can't switch in at all, and slower teams just struggle to handle the power. This is also helped by a overall reduction in Pursuit usage on Kingambit, and Mega Tyranitar and Weavile can't switch into it anyway. It also learns Brick Break if you want to be a prick to Kingambit. The calculations you get with the boosting items are funny, but Boots is also very valid imo so you can stay healthy enough in the face of spike stacking. The speed tier is a major hinderance of course, but the positive traits are enough to justify working around that in my opinion.

These are both experimental for sure, but I do feel that if meta trends continue to favor these, and people give them an honest shot, that they may be worth bringing to serious games. I also think we are in a meta state where people need to be encouraged to experiment; there's a lot of lower-tier stuff with positive traits that I hope people discover and get some good wins with. Look forward to seeing what folks come up with!
 
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