-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
BWPL V Format Discussion
- Thread starter goldmason
- Start date
- Status
how are you being bullied out? you are Not In The Tournament
This, like many many other statements pushing away a tier that has a generally large playerbase no matter the generation is exactly what icarus is talking about.
Every other premier league has a monotype dedicated slot but suddenly generation 5 the mickiest of mouse tiers in the history of pokemon, coming to a CLOSE second arguably with DPP OU, just chooses to diminish 2 tiers with a great playerbase and easy to craft and play teambuilder slot. It isn't rocket science.
Okay. Firstly you're all annoying.
Onto Monotype's inclusion in this iteration of BWPL. Before I start, I would like to just discuss some arguments that have been floating around, for and against Monotype's inclusion.
The other argument of "Monotype is being included in every other old gen pl therefore we must include it" is also hard for me to agree with, especially when that tier is not included in SCL (the highest quality representation of lower tiers). Also, as other people already vocalized about it, last year's BWPL was a pretty successful format and for us to feel compelled to change it in order to include Monotype (or any other tier/slot), the reasonings and arguments must be extremely sound and rock-solid.
With that being said, I do enjoy BW Monotype. I think it is fun and I know first hand the community for it is very big and active. What frustrates me is that this same community never showed any sign of interest of interaction with us till it comes the time to want representation in our tour. As for doubles, the visibility on the forums is just not there to the point its not even on our forums. Potentially our fault, but as Gypsy previously stated I could not tell you one single BW Doubles player and having to take someone's word on them being good at the tier can go south really quickly, especially if that player then decides to cancer or has something come up and you have to sub a singles player with 0 experience into a doubles.
This is not me tier bashing or gate keeping these tiers from our tournament. Last year's format was really good and this is simply where I stand on the matter. I would hope to see some good faith discussions in the future with all due respect this was not it.
Onto Monotype's inclusion in this iteration of BWPL. Before I start, I would like to just discuss some arguments that have been floating around, for and against Monotype's inclusion.
The argument "This tier is the most skill intensive out of all the Monotype generations" into quoting players that picked up the tier is contradictory. Either those players are just good at Pokémon and therefore picked it up with ease because they know how to play OR the generation is easy to play. Also, the examples provided are not very good representatives, given that one of them apparently plays BW Monotype since 2020 and the other two didn't really have many games that allowed them to showcase high-level gameplay, not by their fault but either due to matchups or bad team compositions.
The other argument of "Monotype is being included in every other old gen pl therefore we must include it" is also hard for me to agree with, especially when that tier is not included in SCL (the highest quality representation of lower tiers). Also, as other people already vocalized about it, last year's BWPL was a pretty successful format and for us to feel compelled to change it in order to include Monotype (or any other tier/slot), the reasonings and arguments must be extremely sound and rock-solid.
With that being said, I do enjoy BW Monotype. I think it is fun and I know first hand the community for it is very big and active. What frustrates me is that this same community never showed any sign of interest of interaction with us till it comes the time to want representation in our tour. As for doubles, the visibility on the forums is just not there to the point its not even on our forums. Potentially our fault, but as Gypsy previously stated I could not tell you one single BW Doubles player and having to take someone's word on them being good at the tier can go south really quickly, especially if that player then decides to cancer or has something come up and you have to sub a singles player with 0 experience into a doubles.
This is not me tier bashing or gate keeping these tiers from our tournament. Last year's format was really good and this is simply where I stand on the matter. I would hope to see some good faith discussions in the future with all due respect this was not it.
This is so willfully ignorant.
1 of your forum mods has been explicitly tier bashing, including laugh reacting every post suggesting Monotype gets included, and another started a shitpost chain about you specifically after a ragebait response to a genuine point and then deleted it to cover themself, and then the BW jerk questions why Monotype and DOU aren't in your Discord and discussing or aren't more involved with your community? This level of infantile behavior is comedic at best, incompetent and embarrassingly toddler-like from the council members and mods involved in it at worst, especially when this thread was posted with the explicit purpose of discussing the format for the tournament. Do you expect people not to support the formats they enjoy playing and watching? Or on the flip side, do you expect people to want to engage with your community when those "responding" are doing so in extraordinarily bad faith and trolling?
Even more comedic is what's being discussed behind closed doors and elsewhere where it's being mentioned that the level of support for Mono is crazy, but then simultaneously asking if, suggesting, and mentioning they don't need to include it despite the public support.
If you're going to discuss the format elsewhere and ignore comments in this thread, why bother posting and having any semblance of public input at all? Don't post the thread and do what you want to do anyway when your entire attitude is "if there's popular support we can ignore them anyways."
If you're going to pretend the public thread has any semblance of legitimacy, debate the merits of adding or not including a tier. Don't act like petulant children.
These don't make sense as rebuttals. This is BWPL, not SCL. SCL has nothing to do with this tournament. I'm not sure what else the Monotype community was supposed to do when it comes to interacting with the BW community? This also just doesn't really make sense. Did you want Monotype mains to get immersed in BW OU / lower tiers? Monotype (and DOU) players want inclusion in BWPL because they enjoy their main tiers and want to play BW. There doesn't need to be a deeper politic scheme than that.
And this is largely my problem with Smogon right now. Smogon is a hobbyist website that should be enjoyed by as many people as possible. It should be a way to interact with people across the world and have a good time watching your little monsters beat up other monsters. Such elitism over a game that isn't an E-sport and for tournaments that don't provide any monetary prize has never made any sense to me. I understand that people want to uphold competitive integrity but it gets to a point where it's just obvious here that a jerk wants to have the only say in the format given that I've seen some posts from people speaking in absolutes with no objective metric to back up their points. If having to plan around a DOU/Monotype slot is really giving you that much of a headache and causing your auction plans to fumble, you aren't cut out to be a manager. Drafting support isn't hard. If people are so worried about breaking out into communities, the best way to do that is through individuals.
That being said, I've helped advocate for Monotype in SSPL, SMPL, and ORAS PL. Aside from Charmriah, Ken, and Roxie's posts, I'm not sure why other Monotype users came to attack the BW community. That was certainly not the way to go about it and those posts have probably ruined Monotype's chances of inclusion, and rightfully so. Though, DOU should at least be included. They always have good signups.
Keep 10 Slots, Free Doubles, Spin a wheel to X either LC or ZU (saying this with pain in my heart)
OR
12 Slots, use the UUCL/NUCL format with 6 OU slots and 6 flex slots from Ubers, UU, RU, NU, PU, ZU, LC, DOUBLES, MONO and leave no one out & show the forums you can do whatever you want.
ive just solved bwpl
OR
12 Slots, use the UUCL/NUCL format with 6 OU slots and 6 flex slots from Ubers, UU, RU, NU, PU, ZU, LC, DOUBLES, MONO and leave no one out & show the forums you can do whatever you want.
ive just solved bwpl
ken you can post as many out of context screenshots as you would like to, you can also be heavily involved in user safety but carelessly leak my legal first name on a public forum, or even make it easily identifiable that it was me who made this joke so that we can have some nice witch hunting go down, great stuff safeguarding the community.
I'm going to post what I messaged you on discord since you are probably too busy to respond:
I'm going to post what I messaged you on discord since you are probably too busy to respond:
I appreciate how many people are interested in BWPL and their favorite BW metagames. Monotype, Lower Tiers, DOU, and other formats all deserve their respect. This should be a good thing and it should be an honor that people are willing to spend some of their hobby time on this generation.
Obviously things in this thread got a bit heated and then off-topic, but do not let that take away from all of the good faith points made across the spectrum. I will work to find the best solution for BWPL (and the entire group of BW tournaments), but I just want to say thank you to everyone who chimed in productively. We appreciate you and, without you, there is no BW community after all.
It is the task of us moderators and the hosts to find the best solution or set of solutions for our playerbase. We will do our best to make it work.
Obviously things in this thread got a bit heated and then off-topic, but do not let that take away from all of the good faith points made across the spectrum. I will work to find the best solution for BWPL (and the entire group of BW tournaments), but I just want to say thank you to everyone who chimed in productively. We appreciate you and, without you, there is no BW community after all.
It is the task of us moderators and the hosts to find the best solution or set of solutions for our playerbase. We will do our best to make it work.
Despite some... Oddly aggressive posts? The BW Moderation Team is paying close attention to the support of and discussions on BW Monotype and BW DOU. I'll do my best to discuss the format for this year and our plans going forward:
1x BW OU Bo3
2x BW OU
BW Ubers
BW UU
BW RU
BW NU
BW PU
BW ZU
BW LC
130k Credits
The format of BWPL has been successful for several years now, so the only change we'll be making right now is the inclusion of one Bo3 slot following the popularity of it in ROAPL. We are aware that this format will not include Monotype and DOU, but I hope our outline for the future can assuage concerns that we are simply ignoring a pretty notable outpouring of support.
Firstly, we believe that it's important for a tier to have a historic presence on the forum in some capacity, as after all, BWPL is meant to represent the BW community. Monotype and DOU having virtually zero presence is an issue we'd like to fix by introducing tours to establish that connection and build that playerbase. We think that "BW Monotype Open I" (subject to name change after complaints) is a great way to create continuity between our two communities and create a precedent for Monotype within BW, rather than a "Honey Pot" conspiracy. Eragon, the DOU community, and myself have also discussed the natural divide between singles and doubles, and have floated possible tournaments involving it.
This segues me into my second point, which is the possibility of a BW Lower Tiers PL akin to ADVLTL or ORAS Underground. We wouldn't be able to fit the tour in this year, but with the clear support displayed in this thread, we can plan to fit in a team tour with these formats for next year.
Finally, we think that the current format of lower tiers individually maintaining threads on both the BW Forum and their own forums has been a complete mess, resulting in many dead and outdated threads. We would like to have a much more organized and accessible Lower Tiers Hub, in line with ADV's: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-lower-tiers-hub.3687816/
I very much appreciate those civally discussing the formats for BWPL V and the feedback they've provided me. I hope that this is a sufficient plan of action for everyone.
(The tour will also be moved up a week, Manager Signups go up Aug 10th)
1x BW OU Bo3
2x BW OU
BW Ubers
BW UU
BW RU
BW NU
BW PU
BW ZU
BW LC
130k Credits
The format of BWPL has been successful for several years now, so the only change we'll be making right now is the inclusion of one Bo3 slot following the popularity of it in ROAPL. We are aware that this format will not include Monotype and DOU, but I hope our outline for the future can assuage concerns that we are simply ignoring a pretty notable outpouring of support.
Firstly, we believe that it's important for a tier to have a historic presence on the forum in some capacity, as after all, BWPL is meant to represent the BW community. Monotype and DOU having virtually zero presence is an issue we'd like to fix by introducing tours to establish that connection and build that playerbase. We think that "BW Monotype Open I" (subject to name change after complaints) is a great way to create continuity between our two communities and create a precedent for Monotype within BW, rather than a "Honey Pot" conspiracy. Eragon, the DOU community, and myself have also discussed the natural divide between singles and doubles, and have floated possible tournaments involving it.
This segues me into my second point, which is the possibility of a BW Lower Tiers PL akin to ADVLTL or ORAS Underground. We wouldn't be able to fit the tour in this year, but with the clear support displayed in this thread, we can plan to fit in a team tour with these formats for next year.
Finally, we think that the current format of lower tiers individually maintaining threads on both the BW Forum and their own forums has been a complete mess, resulting in many dead and outdated threads. We would like to have a much more organized and accessible Lower Tiers Hub, in line with ADV's: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-lower-tiers-hub.3687816/
I very much appreciate those civally discussing the formats for BWPL V and the feedback they've provided me. I hope that this is a sufficient plan of action for everyone.
(The tour will also be moved up a week, Manager Signups go up Aug 10th)
Last edited:
- Status