Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

There's some interesting ideas in the previous posts, so as the CEO of Barra SS, I'll make some comments with PLIX almost done. I'll be collective and not too specific because putting a huge magnifying glass over this gen is just a seemingly sophisticated way to lead to analysis paralysis.

:primarina: :tapu fini: :metagross: :cresselia: :darmanitan-galar:
I can see this being a top5 more or less. Order hardly matters in my VRs because in the grand scheme of things, intramon and intraset interactions are more important than declaring a mon as the sole S rank, few S- ranks, etc. The water pixies :primarina: :tapu fini: embody several of the things I like in this gen. Strong typing, freedom to run whatever item and most importantly a smooth matchup tradeoff between different sets. AKA, I'm confident they were still the most reliable mons of PLIX, similar to what I thought post PL7. I will continue having a soft spot for Prim, but truth be told, Fini was the most oppressive pixie this year.

I find it interesting that while :cresselia: is still the most "bannable" mon of SS post PLIX, it pales in comparison to what we had in the past, e.g. :zygarde-complete: showing that the decentralisation of SS post :necrozma: ban has done wonders. At the end of the day, it's the players' responsibility to find checks to a few annoying sets and Cress is just that: a good mon with a vast opportunity cost that gets somewhat annoying to deal with once you move away from it's traditional counters and that can easily be more punishing to its user than the opp if you try to get too techy.

:darmanitan-galar: deserves a top 5 status partly because it's a trusty 2-1 generating machine like it's always been, and partly because Zen got promising results. The theoretical versatility was always there, but now we saw on several occasions that players who didn't compress the various darm sets' matchups on their teams got punished and I can imagine this becoming a trend going forward.

I expected more :Metagross: representation, that mon is broken.

Despite being some sort of top5, these mons all have a few trap elements to them. Reflect prim is loadable but bad, helmet Cress is loadable but very bad, band meta is loadable but very very bad. Scarf darm isn't all that.

:celesteela: deserves to be highly respected but PLIX SS hated steela, although the newfound love for darm may push occa and custap variants?

I'm not sure how :spectrier: is still ranked so highly by others? If a good glue with some degree of versatility is top5 status, then idk, :garchomp: is too. I think mons like these are very good, but their splashability leads to overrating their worth.

There's a long list of super-usable mons so just look at the luser list. From Barras POV we had a lot of fun with :entei: :zeraora: s/o the Mishlef and Blanched gang , :goodra: s/o fratello Close , :diancie: s/o my trusty Rei
:porygon-z: :zapdos: :volcarona::azumarill: :tapu bulu: and many others s/o CEO. BTW the duck isn't dropping off, just a bit scary to use, although notably scarier for the opponent. Anyway, we've been saying this for 3 years now. :aromatisse: I didn't get to use this against skill swap Cress or Registeel this year, but at least I provided Glitched with a replay for the analysis.

In general, post PLIX SS feels almost the same as post PL7 to me, yet there are still fresh ideas to try and just some more care to be taken to not lose to top mons' obscure sets. Very good spot to be in.

Once gen10 rolls and SS gets a single slot, keep SS7, it's the logical conclusion based on community support. We lobbied for the same thing when SV launched and "should" have had double bo5.

Regarding general remarks brought by zo and luser:

We shouldn't be entertaining thoughts of banning :custap berry:. The tier has its unique flair and at the core of it, it's all about going one step ahead in your thought process and understanding what the process behind my opponent's building was, and why could it be that X mon benefits from custap, Y mon benefits from resist berry, Z mon benefits from weakpol, etc. Does it make sense for X to come out if its not custap? Fun part is, you dont even have to hard setguess. Understanding the general role of the mons is enough to estimate what youre facing.

Nerfing the most competitive gen 1v1 has to offer because people don't like being burnt when they play with risks doesn't make sense to me. Start with custap and you won't stop until we play a proper RPS game where electric unmistakably beats water and heatran is usually not bulky enough to survive a Dragapult Hydro pump. But seeing how we don't allow Heatran to use AV, then should we look into Specs too? Let's not take creativity away from this gen.

There was a sleep vote 2 years ago. Despite not liking the result (I participated and voted ban), nothing has changed on the sleep front with the exception of a handful who now lose to it more than they used to win with it, because that's just how sleep turns work, you can't be consistently lucky. No reason to revisit.

High entry barrier for the gen. The resources are good and well maintained but without a ladder, it's borderline impossible to attract people who will want to stay and learn more after playing a few OGPL or PL games, SS seems hard to learn without the ability to spam games. I would like to see a ladder (tour) implementation. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work out, thats at least net neutral, quite possibly net positive. Maybe that will boost :Magnezone: usage?
 
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Nominating Torterra from UR to C in SM.
:sm/torterra:

Custap (Torterra) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Endure

Custap is good if the opponent doesn't know your set. With prediction, you can beat Magearna, Greninja, Tapu Lele, Meloetta, Choiced Victini, Z Heatran, and Ground Z / Scarf Landorus-T.

You also beat Mega Gyarados, Mega Slowbro, Zeraora, Electrium Z Magnezone, SpDef Mega Mawile, and Z Primarina + Tapu Fini (outside of random Ice Beams) without any prediction necessary.

You can also run this EV spread to beat all Mega Mawile reliably, although it takes away from Torterra's power.
EVs: 204 HP / 164 Atk / 140 Def
Impish Nature

PhysDef Stall (Torterra) @ Normalium Z / Kee Berry
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Tickle / Curse
- Amnesia
- Synthesis
- Seed Bomb

Norm Z + Tickle lets Torterra beat Z Dragonium Dragonite more reliably, while Kee + Curse beats Sub users like Zygarde-C and (non Ice Punch) and Mega Metagross.

You can also run SpDef to do better against Meloetta and SubTorrent Greninja.

Torterra @ Groundium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer

Beats Aegislash, Magearna, Registeel, and non-Ice Punch Mega Metagross reliably. Speed is for outspeeding max speed Mega Metagross after a Rock Polish, rest is dumped into HP. Only unfortunate thing is this:
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 364-430 (99.1 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Almost no Magearna run 252 SpA though. If you really want to be reliable against Magearna though, you can run this spread:
EVs: 144 Atk / 252 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
^If you use this spread though, your Incineroar odds go from okay to 0:
-1 252+ Atk Torterra Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Incineroar: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 144+ Atk Torterra Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Incineroar: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Rock Polish also lets you 50/50 Mega Gardevoir which is funny.

Sets I'm too lazy to build but probably have a purpose:
Grass Z + Sub Overgrow?
Yache (Anti Zone)
AV (Anti Zone + maybe some other special attackers? this one is completely hypothetical idk what it'd actually do)
Worry Seed ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

oh and thanks for letting me on usum council that's funny timing
 
Out of the tour so it's time for round 2 of ORAS post. Brain is fried after brainrotting on setcomp update for many hours today so post is a little snappy but yeah- ORAS! This time no revolutionary new tech, but refinements of things that already existed or fun alternate sets for meta mons that I ended up running this tour.

:raikou: Raikou! :raikou:
A set we actually made and refined specifically for the tiebreaker but didn't end up bringing, this set is optimised for Sub + Leftovers HP and speed tier for Serp, this beautifully frees up 64 EVs which, as it turns out, is the exact amount you need to bulk a scarf victini.
Code:
Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Def / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge / Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Protect
- Calm Mind
It's awkward to build with but beats a surprising lot and can easily be C+ or B- on the VR.

:lopunny-mega: Bulky Mega Lopunny :lopunny-mega:
Semifinals tech that also didn't end up making it to games, but this one was born from the thought that adamant lop lowkey doesn't really need max speed and wondering what you can bulk if you drop it. We ended up dropping a bit of speed and some attack to bulk scarf KyuB.
Code:
Anti-KyuB Bulky (Lopunny-Mega) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 112 Atk / 184 Def / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Giga Impact
- High Jump Kick
- Encore / Thunder Punch / Ice Punch / Endure / Substitute
Speed is for serperior, but if you drop Encore you can consider dropping it by a little more and get a bit more damage. in terms of damage, you're roughly equivalent to Jolly with this spread (3 Atk more or something) which is less than what you normally want to run Adamant Lopunny for obviously but still totally usable

:metagross-mega: The right way to run protect :metagross-mega:
This set is very likely making it onto setcomp because it just performs really well generally. Its biggest flaw is that it has no moveslots to run anything other than these 4 but if these are the moves you need then you can easily get away with it
Code:
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 176 HP / 16 Atk / 100 Def / 216 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
This outspeeds Adamant Garchomp and Jolly Lando-T while the bulk lets you tank Mega Gyarados Crunch and more importantly Jolly Garchomp. Your reason to run Protect on Metagross is usually to beat Garchomp, and this does it gracefully while still having a ton of bulk to work with.

If you have no desire to beat Gyarados, you can instead run this alternative fast spread bulked for scarf Lando-T that ends up having 4th move flexibility and more damage

hi guys huge blunder by me, the above metagross set does not work because my research into ORAS rough skin mechanics was wrong... So here's a bulky protect spread that is STILL better than 252/252 so I'm not a complete fraud! Bulked for scarf Lando-T with (obviously) speed for chomper
Code:
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 56 HP / 224 Atk / 36 Def / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch / Earthquake / Zen Headbutt / Whatever the fuck else you want

:Venusaur-Mega: Charm Venu is Back :Venusaur-Mega:
In a world where Serp is like the only grass type I run, I think it's time to bring back charm venu. This one in particular is bulked for Garchomp with SpA to guarantee the 2HKO on Slowbro with Petal Dance. I really enjoy running this.
Code:
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 32 SpA / 12 SpD / 104 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Petal Dance
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Charm

:entei: I owe you an Entei set from last time :entei:
This beats band KyuB every time which is cool. I'd also totally recommend messing around with Life Orb.
Code:
Entei @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 192 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
- Endure

:magnezone: I snuck this onto a team and NOBODY on Horrors complained about it :magnezone:
I'm a long-time analytic zone enjoyer, quite possibly the only analytic zone enjoyer, but I'm back and I've done it again in ORAS this time. I tried to do this in OGPL but failed because Endure+Analytic are incompatible which means you can't make a bulky custap set...

Code:
Magnezone @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SpA / 204 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Metal Sound
- Hidden Power [Fire]
8 Spe is there to speed creep base 60s after HP Fire drops your speed by 1. This has enough spa to 2HKO most Gardevoir with Thunderbolt so you can Flash Cannon -> Thunderbolt to dodge Disable. Special Defense for Genesect Download and HP Fire to beat it. The vibes on this set are immaculate.

Balance talk
I don't think anything in ORAS is currently banworthy. Sableye and Slowbro can be annoying but with a healthy dose of serp or mawile spam they don't cause any problems. This is probably the most fun I've ever had in ORAS, banning mew and zardx was a great move, I don't think unbanning ZardY will make things better.
- Felucia
 
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HIC it's IC, been playing bw for about a year now, so i'm gonna yap about it.

BeeWee takes time

:haxorus:This mon is unmanagable.
Inverse Crustle in terms of cheesability. Between band, scarf, Def dragon gem and SpD custap and the ability to choose between Unnerve and Mold Breaker it has basically no safe counters bar Genesect. The only way to really build teams that beat it safely and comfortably is by just assuming people aren't SpD invest or to use Genesect. It very easily boils matchups down to setreads and 50/50s.
Haxorus @ Custap Berry
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 8 Def / 212 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Endure
- Dual Chop

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Haxorus: 150-177 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 212 SpD Haxorus: 301-355 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Taunt Reflect sets can 50/50. Focus Blast (fighting gem is even better) + Aqua Jet can win too. If you want an anti-haxorus Keldeo fighting gem is your best bet, one-tapping scarf+band and having good odds of beating this.

Custap helps vs Mana & Latis too.
Anti Gene* (Haxorus) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 200 HP / 56 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Reversal
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Endure
- Outrage / Swords Dance

Outrage > Swords Dance gives best sect MU, but it still beats a lot of the generic mons custap outrage beats like this.
Beats any choiced Genesect (band needs a setread)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Haxorus: 290-342 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

56 SpA gives best odds into non ice beam occa.
56 SpA 30 IVs Haxorus Hidden Power Fire vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 152-180 (47 - 55.7%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Haxorus: 144-171 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

56 atk w sd is better against choiced jeans.

Swords Dance > Hidden Power [Fire] seems a pretty decent set on its own, retaining a good choiced jim matchup.


:genesect: The single Haxorus answertm.
idt the tier is playable without this atm, having the ability to beat both meloetta and haxorus is incredibly valuable. it has a lot of options theoretically, but i found myself only really using occa and physically biased scarf. Max Atk X-Scissor is the only way scarf is really beating meloetta somewhat reliably. Occa is just very safe, allowing it to beat most sturdies and most Meloetta, Cresselia and Haxorus sets in one set.

Being beatable by a lot of miscellaneous mons with hp fire or random fire coverage helps make it feel more managable, at least compared to some of the other top mons atm
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Def / 120 Spe
Naughty Nature
- X-Scissor
- Giga Impact / Fly
- Ice Beam / Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower / Thunderbolt / Iron Head / Shadow Claw

Speed is base 130s ig
Bulk for scarf hax
252+ Atk Haxorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 240-284 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- not a KO
252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake over 2 turns vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 240-284 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- not a KO

if max speed jolly, has rolls to kill if bug buzz > ice beam.
252 Atk Haxorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 16 Def Genesect: 245-290 (86.5 - 102.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

You ohko choiced with Ice Beam
+1 0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 318-376 (108.5 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What if SpD Custap
0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 212 SpD Haxorus: 166-196 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
20+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 92-108 (32.2 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
+4 20+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 276-324 (96.8 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

I find the fact that this is losable at all very silly.

+1 252+ Atk Genesect X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Haxorus: 220-261 (61.7 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This 2hkos if you get the atk boost, but like, still risks a random counter.

So smth like spd custap even without reversal just ends up randomly adding a couple rolls and set-guessing for like, no reason???
Anyway back to Genesect
Max atk for best rolls
+1 252+ Atk Genesect X-Scissor vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Meloetta: 380-450 (97.1 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Genesect Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 361-425 (96.7 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Genesect Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 323-380 (100.6 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Shadow Claw helps vs Jelli & Chandy
Fly ohkos Volc, but is more predictable into endure sets (also good vs max max keld)
Iron Head is cheese + Aerodactyl
Thunderbolt for Gyara
Flamethrower for Meta mostly
I will always recommend Ice Beam more for Haxorus meta.


:meloetta: :meloetta-pirouette: I love pirouetta.
Pirouette being viable rocks, tho having a 20% chance to just kinda win most mus is pretty silly.

I don't have much to add, mon is hard to manage. It doesn't have a lot of consistent answers that can't be finessed or bulked somehow. Even without that, specs, gems and Pirouette already have a lot of bandwidth.


:tornadus: subtox good.
Tornadus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 160 HP / 16 SpA / 164 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Heat Wave
- Toxic

Sacrifices consistency vs mons like Meloetta and Keld for lefties and a better gene mu.
252+ SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 160 HP / 164 SpD Tornadus: 214-254 (63.1 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Genesect Quick Attack vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 68-81 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO

Has rolls that lose vs SpD Scarf.


:zapdos: My goat.
Electric types are good. Zapdos glued a lot of my teams together, having a solid water+genesect answer when needed helped a lot. Combined with its pressure stall sets it can take out a large chunk of sets. Has plenty of small customizability, SpD Toxic, Physdef Specs, Jaboca, Full Stall and my favorite
Anti Hax* (Zapdos) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Heat Wave
- Hyper Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]

Sacrifice all reliable defensive benchmarks for big beam propaganda.
252+ SpA 30 IVs Choice Specs Zapdos Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 350-412 (98.5 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Now of course this does not really work as a reliable Haxorus answer, but i sure thought it was good enough when i built it.
SpD Haxorus cannot hurt you if it does not exist.


:darmanitan: 252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Meloetta: 414-487 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


:crustle: The most cheesable mon in 1v1.
There aren't many meta mons that can't finesse a win out of standard Rock Gem. Just kinda resulting in a pokemon that isn't super comfortable to use and isn't super hard to beat imo. Maybe we just need more Sitrus Berries in our diet. Bulky Band is prolly its best set atm, made more imposing by rock gem sets existing.
Crustle @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 216 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Rock Blast
- X-Scissor
- Counter / Earthquake

Lives Volcarona Overheat + Jaboca Chip
252+ SpA Volcarona Overheat vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Crustle: 255-300 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKOz

36+ Atk Choice Band Crustle Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Charti Berry Volcarona: 378-450 (101.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lives hax band outrage (no reason not to really, can ignore it for 20 more atk evs.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


:spiritomb: It's usable!!!!!
Its primary niche over something like Sableye is a better Crustle mu, which is honestly kinda it. I'm still mad about infiltrator being hypertrash this gen (it does not bypass substitute). Being immune to Fighting, Normal and Psychic moves just gives you a lot of good mus into that part of the meta.
Lucia (Spiritomb) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Pain Split
- Taunt

It's max max waow
252+ Atk Rock Gem Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Rock Gem Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 280-331 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (sableye can finesse with subs but needs to play 50/50s a lot more.) aka it sucks, spiritomb supremacy.

Can also go for a more offensive spread with sucker punch, like dark gem seems workable, but this feels generally the most useful especially in terms of realizing its niche.

Overall thoughts, meta is fun to build until you think about certain mons too much. I would like to see Haxorus gone, actually taking into account everything it can reasonably do is overwhelming.

Ramblings may or may not continue at a later date.
IC out~
 
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