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Image credit: Shin Nagasawa for the Pokemon TCG - Fates Collide RBY SU Discussion Thread
This thread is dedicated to RBY Sub-Zero Used (SU), the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon below ZU. RBY SU has seen a small following ever since the earliest formalization of RBY ZU, and its tierlist is based on the most recent VL of RBY ZU. RBY SU has been in forum tournaments, such as the RBY SU Open and its inclusion in RBYOMPL, and it's also supported through smaller tournaments and scheduled roomtours through the SU Discord. With the creation of this thread, there's now a place to discuss RBY SU on the Smogon forums!
SU also observes all transitive bans from higher tiers in accordance with the RBY lower tiers transitive bans policy. This includes the ZU partial-trapping moves ban and will include any future bans made after the implementation of the policy.
Misc. offensive roles
note: Partial-trapping moves are banned from SU
Counter :machooke:
Explosion |
Slash
Defensive/Utility Roles
Status Spreaders
note: Confuse Ray is banned from RBY SU Paralysis
Thunder Wave
Glare / Stun Spore
Body Slam | Sleep
Sleep Powder |
Sing Misc.Status
Burn (Fire Blast)
Freeze (Blizzard) |
Notable Checks/Counters
Arbok checks
Charmeleon checks |
Diglett checks |
Farfetch'd checks |
Goldeen checks |
Horsea checks |
Ivysaur checks (checks vary depending on if Sleep Clause is activated) |
Lickitung checks |
Marowak checks |
Meowth checks
Pikachu checks |
Ponyta checks |
Rhyhorn checks |
Voltorb checks (checks may vary because of Explosion)
Wartortle checks
I'd like to use some of my experiences playing the post-tier shifts metagame, observations from 2025 RBY SU Discord tour, and involvement in RBYOMPL to break the ice on RBY SU with some analysis of how a lot of Pokemon are faring in the new metagame!
Choose your fighter
Most teams you'll see in this tier will overwhelmingly have a Fire-Water-Grass core anchoring the whole thing. This is the actual RBY lower tier where all three starter Pokemon are great, though there are some secondary Fire-types and Water-types that you can fit pretty comfortably onto teams thanks to the potency they have to pick up where their partners leave off. Horsea is a great sweeper while Wartortle is a good tank, and Ponyta can more comfortably clean up teams that have been weakened by Charmeleon.
Ivysaur is an already good Pokemon that has coveted access to sleep, something only matched by slower, less relevant Pokemon like Weepinbell and Venonat. You will want Ivysaur on borderline every team. Ivysaur's base 60 Speed, strong Grass STAB, and access to sleep makes slower Pokemon like Marowak, Lickitung, and Rhyhorn far more limited. Weepinbell's lower Speed makes it the inferior option, especially when it underspeeds Wartortle and doesn't Speed tie Horsea. Unlike with Fire-types and Water-types, type-stacking Weepinbell and Ivysaur isn't recommended.
Since Ivysaur is so good, Charmeleon distinguishes itself as a way to punish Ivysaur usage and ideally deter sleep. There's a rock-paper-scissors dynamic in the Charmeleon mirror that emerges, where you have Slash, Counter, and Substitute. Fire Blast's 30% chance to burn can be really nice to more reliably beat Arbok one-on-one, dampen the impact of Rock-types trying to intercept Charmeleon, and get a little bit of extra damage on incoming Wartortle or Charmeleon. 80 Speed is quite fast for the tier, and it lets Charmeleon consistently get a critical hit with Slash. Unlike Charizard, Charmeleon lacks Earthquake and Hyper Beam, which helpfully makes it a bit less overwhelming than it otherwise would be. Ponyta is a good back Fire-type because Charmeleon is so effective as a fast attacker outside of the late-game, and it can get really annoying with critical hits, Body Slam paralysis, and even Stomp cheese.
And with Fire-types being so good, Water-types thrive. Wartortle is one of the tanker Pokemon in the tier with one of the most convenient defensive typings, asserting itself as a solid pick despite its lower Speed and vulnerability to Ivysaur. Horsea is excellent as an Agility sweeper by overwhelming the fast Fire-types, and it benefits greatly from Fire-types weakening Wartortle and Ivysaur potentially dropping into Blizzard range as it tries to sleep a foe.
Pick your poison
Arbok was a fairly exciting new drop that hasn't really upended the tier as much. It's certainly not a replacement to the late Muk (RIP) or the even later Weezing (RIPIP), and has shown to be more comparable to the (post-Confuse Ray ban) Golbat, offering good Speed, well-rounded bulk, and fairly spammable moves for the tier. Arbok can beat many Pokemon one-on-one, especially squishy ones like Pikachu and Meowth, and Arbok's decent critical hit rate and rare access to Hyper Beam help it out. Unfortunately, burns from Fire-types and a lack of critical hits can sometimes leave it a little underwhelming. Arbok does benefit from Ivysaur deterring many slower Pokemon like Marowak and Lickitung that would hinder it more, so I do think it's a pretty good fit in the tier.
Golbat hasn't had its niche entirely stolen by Arbok, as it still notably outspeeds Charmeleon and the rest of the base 80s range, but it hasn't popped up as much.
Need for Speed
There's a good assortment of other fast attackers in SU besides ones I've mentioned. Meowth replicates some of Persian's role in UU as a fast attacker with Slash and some coverage moves, and it 3HKOes or 2HKOes most of the tier with Slash alone. SU also lacks many relevant bulky or Normal-resistant Pokemon.
Pikachu and Voltorb are pretty distinguished by their Speed tiers and positive matchups against common Water-types. Pikachu helpfully has Surf to deal with stray Ground-types like Marowak and Rhyhorn, while Seismic Toss is solid for Ivysaur. Voltorb boasts a Speed tier ahead of Ponyta and Golbat, and its Explosion can really help against squishier teams. Arbok's access to Earthquake does make running Electric-types a little tougher than in the last metagame, but they're still excellent as fast attackers.
Hitmonlee might be funny to see down in SU, even in a format that's notably hostile to Fighting-types, but here we are. Lacking Hyper Beam seals why Primeape is ZU and Hitmonlee is down here, but it's still sorely missing from Hitmonlee's moveset. Even in a tier that lacks Ghost- and Psychic-types entirely, Hitmonlee still finds ways to struggle. Ivysaur being on every team is not good news. A lot of people have been trying out Arbok and Marowak after the tier shifts, so Muk's rise (following the trade-off it did with Weezing previously) hasn't saved Hitmonlee. Hitmonlee's bulk makes it nearly as squishy as the other fast attackers in this section, and it's 2HKOed by the starter trio's special attacks. Its bad bulk is why Meditate isn't so easy to click, while burns don't make its life any easier. Even with Hitmonlee having a fairly good Speed tier by outspeeding Charmeleon, it's still just short of the base 90 Speed crowd. Charmeleon and Wartortle can even catch Hitmonlee with Counter, putting it in a tough spot and sometimes making Substitute better as a setup move compared to Meditate.
Diglett has a neat spot as a fast Ground-type given the potency of fast Electric-types and Meowth, but it struggles greatly with Horsea and doesn't appreciate Wartortle's long-awaited return. Diglett's awful bulk does not work in its favor, even compared to other squishies like Pikachu and Meowth, and Ponyta and Charmeleon threatening to hit Diglett as hard back as it hits them can also be a struggle.
Slow dance with me
Like I've said previously, a lot of the slower Pokemon in the tier, including new droops like Marowak, are really limited by the effect Ivysaur has on the tier. Marowak stands out for a strong EQ, perfect coverage with Blizzard, and the bulk and typing to take on Arbok. It's unfortunately victimized by the starter trio's strong matchups against it. Even Charmeleon and Ponyta can threaten to burn or crit Marowak and lessen its overall impact. I would not overhype Marowak too much, even if it's neat to have another fully evolved Pokemon in the tier, and a Ground-type at that.
Lickitung now holds the title of bulkiest Pokemon in the tier now that Muk has risen, not that it could ever replace Muk and its Explosion. STAB Body Slam and Hyper Beam are great tools, but Lickitung is challenged to get the most out of Swords Dance when it's running at base 30 Speed and slower than everything besides Rhyhorn and Geodude. It definitely enjoys Muk's rise taking away a panic button for it with Explosion on top of a Fire Blast burn fisher, and it still has the tier in a nice configuration with Hitmonlee being more middling and a lot of squishy Pokemon at the top. I've had mixed feelings about this Pokemon for a while, and that hasn't changed with shifts.
Rhyhorn was highly anticipated as a returning Pokemon to the tier, but the landscape of SU has changed. Checking Weezing used to be a great quality, but Rhyhorn doesn't have that key matchup anymore with both Weezing and Muk now being ZU. Ivysaur is a pain, Wartortle and Horsea are pains, the Fire-types can ruin Rhyhorn with a burn, and Pikachu has Surf. Rhyhorn is 3HKOed by Arbok's Earthquake and can't OHKO it back, inhibiting it as any kind of switch-in to the snake. Rhyhorn can be great if your opponent runs a lot of Voltorb, and Earthquake has great neutral coverage against the tier, but it's really hindered by its awful Speed and major 4x weaknesses in a tier run by Ivysaur and Water-types.
Clefairy differentiates itself from Lickitung with immediate paralysis, which can be really annoying for a lot of fast and squishy Pokemon like Charmeleon and Voltorb that rely on their Speed to be threatening. Clefairy can get really obnoxioius when hax goes its way between full paralysis, Psychic Special drops (something that can let it beat Arbok and hinder revenge killers), and potential Blizzard freezes. There's even Body Slam, Counter, and Seismic Toss in its movepool to boot. Clefairy is just unfortunately hindered by its own bad Speed, just above average bulk, and lower offensive stats.
Hidden gems
There's a couple of Pokemon in SU that people have been skeptical of, and there's a couple that I don't think are highlighted for their good qualities, so I'm going to give a little spotlight to each of them.
Goldeen might look a bit peculiar when Horsea is an option, but Goldeen's superior Speed to Ivysaur can be a major help if your Water-type doesn't have enough room to set up Agility. Water-spam is a good archetype on its own, and Goldeen adds a little extra Speed where Wartortle otherwise wouldn't. Both Water-types do well getting away with weakening each others' checks, although they have to be careful about Electric-types, Arbok, and Lickitung in these matchups.
Farfetch'd was dogged on for a long time, so as one of the few people to hold out a torch for it for a long time, I'm glad to see it getting some recognition! Rock-types are majorly limited in SU, so Farfetch'd is in a great position as a Normal-type sweeper. Base 60ish stats around the board aren't great, but Farfetch'd has great moves to make up for these traits. Agility and Slash turn Farfetch'd into a sweeper capable of 2HKOing or 3HKOing a good chunk of the metagame, and it's a bit stronger than Meowth. Farfetch'd is given positions to set up Agility pretty neatly once Ivysaur has popped sleep, and it doesn't run into Horsea's issue of being walled by Wartortle.
Doduo is another bird that takes advantage of the Ivysaur hegemony, offering Drill Peck for a more reliable 2HKO. Like Farfetch'd, it also has access to Agility, but 75 Speed comes up just short of being faster than Charmeleon+Arbok and the faster metagame, and Doduo's bad bulk doesn't do it many favors either.
Geodude might seem like a reach given my outline of Marowak and Rhyhorn's rough positions, but Explosion makes up the difference by making Geodude more effective at trading and punishing incoming Ivysaur or Wartortle.
Dratini is one more for the Agility pile, though Horsea's more impressive power with STAB tends to leave Dratini outclassed. Given its access to Thunder Wave, Dratini has some similarities to Clefairy, boasting a typing that offers neat resistances to Electric, Fire, and Grass. The flipside is that Clefairy is generally bulkier and a little stronger, has access to Psychic and Counter, and doesn't have an unfortunate Ice weakness against Water-types.
Hitmonchan is another quirky case. I've also described why Hitmonlee struggles, and most of its struggles are Hitmonchan's too. 50 / 35 bulk is atrocious, but Hitmonchan does have access to Agility to get it past Charmeleon and the squishy base 90 crowd. Unfortunately, it's mostly outclassed by Horsea and other Agility sweepers.
Machoke combines the issues of the tier's Fighting-types with the slower Pokemon for a very unfortunate cocktail. Unlike Marowak, it is helped a bit more by lacking Grass and Water weaknesses. There's a pretty neat collection of moves in its kit too between Counter, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Seismic Toss, Body Slam, and even Fire Blast for Ivysaur.
This is my personal VL as of today, though I'll still be readjusting it going forward with playing more, watching more RBYOMPL, and seeing how RBY SU Discord 2025 progresses. I haven't ordered these internally, though I would say that Ivysaur and Charmeleon are a slight step above Wartortle. Some of my earlier impressions of the tier, like Arbok being one of the best glues, just haven't panned out, though I was super close to making it A. I tend to be on the more optimistic side for Pokemon having niches in the tier, so my personal VL might look a little more packed than others'. I'm not an RBY god or anything, so take this all with a grain of salt, but I have been consistent with this tier longer than anyone and try to pay attention, discuss, and play regularly.
Everything in S feels mandatory to have or consider for your team and doesn't really have a true replacement for what it does; you can run Ponyta, but missing out on Charmeleon is a big hit when Counter+Slash are so good. The same goes for Wartortle and the other Water-types; I think Horsea and Goldeen are great sweepers, but Wartortle is such a fantastic splash for a lot of teams thanks to its bulk + Counter/Stoss, even if it slows a team down.
A ranks are great adds that round out the top three and usually buff up a team. Horsea is all that as an Agility sweeper, and Meowth, Pikachu, and Ponyta usually are the best fillers of the role of fast non-Charmeleon attacker. A lot of teams end up looking like starter trio + secondary Fire/Water + Electric + secondary fast attacker, so that's what this rank exists to display. Pikachu feels a step above Voltorb right now with Marowak and Rhyhorn testing being common, but it's very close, and I could easily put Voltorb back up in A.
The B ranks are for Pokemon that can be good but face competition, major flaws, or need a lot to go their way to put in consistent work. I touched on why Arbok might be surprising to see here, but there's often games where I've felt like running a different fast attacker would have been a better move for a team, especially when it comes up shorter against Fire-types, Wartortle, and the other faster attackers. Most of the meta-relevant slower Pokemon end up here for me because of the warping effect Ivysaur has on the tier. Diglett, Hitmonlee, Voltorb, and Golbat are all just a bit flawed as fast attackers compared to Meowth, Pikachu, and Ponyta IMO. Goldeen and Farfetch'd are cool as Agility sweepers, but Goldeen isn't on Horsea's level of power, and Farfetch'd needs a little more time to prove itself.
The C ranks display Pokemon that have a couple of nice perks but generally face a hostile meta, being overshadowed by something better, or just do their one thing relatively ok. Kabuto can sure check Fire-types in a vacuum, but it's slow and not much better off than Wartortle. I've already described the flaws of the slow Rock-types, Dratini, Hitmonchan, and Machoke above, so hopefully I don't need to elaborate on why they're in this bottom rank. Beedrill looks really neat to prey on Ivysaur, but Farfetch'd actually does a lot of its role without needing to extensively set up, and even Twin Needle fails to OHKO Ivysaur so... yeah. Shellder is neat for its access to STAB Water-type moves and Explosion in a tier without Ghost-types, but the Rock-types being irrelevant still isn't helpful to its case when it's running at base 40 Speed. Venonat and Weepinbell both have double powder, but Ivysaur's superior Speed is much more relevant than trying to spread paralysis.
Tl;dr: Ivysaur, Fire-types, and Water-types are all amazing. Use more fast Pokemon than slow Pokemon. SU rules.
Having being drafted to play for the poryGOATS in the first ever RBYOMPL team tour to play RBY SU, I've decided to write a post talking about my experience building, playing and supporting for this slot. Prior to the draft I had only played 1 RBY set ever, in which I got smokescreened down into losing to horsea, and almost tilted out of playing completely. Having being drafted I decided to lock in and try and do well. Shout outs to TG2513 and Toxin Boost for giving me a chance here, I had alot of fun and I hope I paid off the value invested in me. I'm also 70% sure I only got drafted because of my name. Also a big shout out to Ineros and DD Joe y'all were locked in the mines with me.
WEEK 1 - DDJoe vs Larry
DDJoe was starting this week, and I was quite confident in his abilities seeing that he was able to step up and get a win vs an RBY main in PUBD, so I wanted to support him as best as I could. The metagame was still fresh so we weren't certain about how good certain mons were, but we came up with some decent teams.
G1 team, 6 solid mons were loaded. Arbok was a good lead into fires (as long as it doesn't get burnt which it did) and also can chip ivy on the first turn sleep. The Pikachu Charmeleon Horsea offensive core is cool as Pikachu paralyses Ivysaur and can leave it in blizzard range, and Charmeleon can chip Wartortle making it easier for Horsea to clean.
For G2 we went with the Ivy lead to get early sleep, and Geodude as an extra fire resist in the back to make up for potentially leading Ivy into a fire. Geodude is a worse Rhyhorn but boom is nice for momentum. This game made me realise how big it is to pick the right sleep sack, Ivy getting slept and Wartortle killed early game made Marowak very tough to deal with late game. As someone who didn't really play no team preview gens a lot, this was something new to me to adapt to.
WEEK 2 MJ vs SaDiSTiCNarwhal
Was given the chance to start this week and was determined to make an impact. Looking into the scout, no normal resist had been loaded yet, so I wanted to play around with one of the offensive normals. I started out testing Meowth teams but it didn't feel good in testing. Lickitung felt really good even while being slower than Ivysaur. It was very good at trading with some of the better mons. Looking at their leads, I wanted to lead Arbok but seeing it get burnt last week put my off, so I went with leads that couldn't get/ didn't care about getting burned, while also being able to punish/chip Ivy.
Goldeen being faster than Ivy is really good, allowing it to chip it heavily before getting slept / KO'd. It's also nice for forcing out Wartortle to check it, if they dont want their Ivysaurs to get chipped. Chipping Wartortle down opened up the game for Charmeleon, Ponyta and Horsea to do some serious damage, and it worked out exactly as I planned.
With this team, the intention again was to chip Wartortle down so Ponyta could clean. Lickitung is nice because looking into the scout, the only mon that could easily trade with Lickitung without fishing for burns, and after Ivy has slept something was Wartortle, which gave me many avenues to open the game up for Ponyta.
WEEK 3 MJ vs Zpice
Having won my first game I earnt the right to stay in the line up and face against zpice. Looking into his scout, he only had loaded double water once, and it made me want to go for stacking Charm x Horsea x Ponyta. One thing I noticed only after I had finished building was that he ran alot of Rest on Wart which could be an issue, but Rest Wart can certainly be exploited. There was alot of Ivy leads, but I knew Zpice was the type of guy to recognise that himself and switch it up, so I thought Arbok would be a good lead into Zpice, hitting Ivy hard before getting slept and beating the fires in 1v1s if I don't get unlucky.
This was the same as my game 2 team last week except Arbok was the lead and I swapped in Marowak for Lickitung, as I wanted to try it out. Rest Wartortle showed how it can be exploitable in this first game considering it won the tie allowing it to rest, but that left it in 4HKO range from ponyta, meaning if it came in on a body slam, it could have been beaten in the 1v1 and thats exactly what happened.
Another similar concept with me trying to overwhelm Wartortle to allow one of Ponyta or Horsea to clean. Loaded this into a team without Wartortle which was really nice, but unfort the hax this game was off the charts. I try to tell myself that thats just RBY to cope but I was tilted af after this game.
This was a team I originally built for G3 of week 2, and didn't feel that good in tests. However I liked the concept of Pikachu chipping Ivy into Horsea range alongside making it slower. Unfortunately Zpice loaded Lickitung which was happy to trade with Pikachu meaning I wasnt able to do that. I also failed to overwhelm the Rest Wartortle meaning Horsea was never cleaning.
WEEK 4 MJ vs Amaranth
For this week, looking into the scout the main things I noticed was a lack of ground resists. There was alot of Arbok and Pikachu leads, so Diglett and Marowak came to mind as leads. Walked away from the Marowak lead because leading it into Ivysaur was too much of a momentum drain for me to consider. Diglett on the other hand would chip Ivy, and also has high crit odds while beating pikachu and arbok most of the time in lead match ups. Ivy was another lead I considered would do well here, since only one Charmeleon lead was used, and alot of my previous leads didn't really encourage Charmeleon leads.
Very standard team, outside of the Diglett lead. Initially went double ground in this team, but it was to weak to Ivysaur and Horsea, so Arbok was swapped in for Marowak which had a more neutral match up into them. Played this game poorly, not keeping diglett as a sleep sack was poor especially since I had double water + arbok + charm in the back for Fires, and Wartortle getting chipped vs double fire wasn't the end of the world.
Another pretty standard team. I noticed no normal resists were loaded by the opp so Meowth felt pretty good to bring, alongside marowak punching holes into the opponents team. Played this one poorly as well, especially with the lead. I encountered many times where Arbok Hyper beams into Ivy's sleep powder, and I thought Id could get more value by SDing first. Opp never clicked the move and continued chipping down my Ivysaur.
WEEK 5 Ineros vs Maris Bonibell
For week 5, since we were already out and Ineros wanted to play SU he was slotting in and I went into support mode again. Looking into the scout one thing that surprised us was 0 Charmeleon usage, which everyone looked at as the best mon in the tier. Their teams often lacked a fire type, meaning Ivy seemed really good into them outside of getting a fast sleep. None of the rock types were loaded which made offensive normals look good here.
This team was initially built for Week 4, but it looked solid into the scout here. Fetch has super strong normal stabs, and people don't really load the rocks, making it hard to check. I think if I could go back in time I'd make this Sub > SD, the initial SD doesn't bring that much value considering slash is double the power 93% of the time.
This team was another chip Ivy and Wartortle for Horsea to clean. Unfortunately this was loaded into Rest Wartortle and the path wasn't laid for Horsea to clean up.
The tour was alot of fun and my first experience with an RBY tier, and I really enjoyed the simplicity compared to modern gens, not having to worry about calcing to see someones EV spread, item, nature etc and just focus on your path to win. I was going to do a VL but it would have ended up pretty similar to the one in the post above, aside from moving Arbok up a tier since I think its one of the better lead. Instead I decided to make a Lead Viability Rankings.
At the top we have the 2 best mons. Ivysaur warps the lead metagame, and leading something that is slower gives free sleep to the opponent. You may notice that most of the mons I have in the "Do Not Lead" category are slower than Ivysaur. Charmeleon goes alongside Ivysaur in S thanks to it punishing Ivysaur lead the hardest, while being extremely threatening early game. Counter gives it a good match up into other leads like Ponyta and Golbat.
In the A tier, first is Arbok. I really wanted to put it into the S tier, but I couldn't justify it to be as high as Charmeleon and Ivysaur. Arbok has good odds to beat Charmeleon in the lead match up, alongside that can hit Ivysaur with a strong Hyper Beam before being put to sleep. Early paralysis is always good. Ponyta is like Charmeleon, but trades being a bit weaker for not worrying about the speed tie with Arbok, and can get the t1 burn more consistently, avoiding losing the 1v1. Pikachu can spread early paralysis, and I really like it as a mon to chip and paralyse Ivysaur to allow Horsea to clean. Diglett is nice due to it being faster than other leads (aside from Voltorb exploding vs you, which is trade you are fine with). It beats Charm consistently, even after a fire blast burn, and has good odds to beat Arbok. It may not like Ivysaur lead, but it has a high crit rate that you can chunk Ivy for 60, and critting Ivysaur on the switch gives you a good chance to take it out completely. Goldeen is very cool for chipping Ivysaur, beating Charmeleon, and those are valuable traits. It also happens to lure in and chip down non-rest Wartortle for stuff like Horsea and Ponyta in the back to clean up.
In B tier are some mons I've seen others use, and I'm not a fan of but I can see the vision. Wont comment on them much since they aren't what I'd consider.
All the mons in the "Do Not Lead" section give Ivysaur free sleep aside from Meowth and Farfetch'd, but I think the value of these mons are reduced when leading with them, and you're are better off saving them in the back.
Post-RBYOMPL VR. Even though I didn't play SU I did most of the building for the first 3 weeks, and after that I was still heavily involved with prep so I think I have a pretty good grasp of the tier.
S Rank:
The S-rank is completely empty for me. When I make RBY VRs I reserve this spot for mons that are mandatory or close to mandatory, but I feel SU doesn't have any Pokemon that fits that description. I remember when I ran a self-scout on Amaranth around week 5, no pokemon had above 70% usage, which is very rare to see in an RBY tier. As I will mention later, I also do not think any mon is a clear #1, the gap between the top few mons is really small.
A1 Rank: It feels weird calling Arbok the best mon in the tier; we didn't even bring it to finals! However, it also feels weird calling literally any pokemon the best mon in the tier, as there is no "big centralizing mon" you have to play around in SU. In my teamcord, I said something along the lines of "everything in this tier is ass, but Arbok is the least ass". It has a lot of good traits going for it down here: 80 base speed is somewhat fast, and Paralysis-spreading moves and Hyper Beam are very elusive in this tier, so Arbok having access to both is nice. Arbok's stats are also great for SU's lower power level, and having Earthquake to chunk fires is also useful.
I will admit I was very very wrong here. I didn't expect Wartortle to be so great, as it was a Water-type slower than Ivysaur, meaning it would give Ivysaur free entry to sleep. However, the RBY SU tier shifted towards trying to bully Ivysaur as hard as possible (like with the god farfetch'd) so allowing in Ivysaur entry isn't as exploitable as it once was. Once you ignore the Ivysaur weakness, tortle becomes an extremely potent defensive backbone that can wall Charmeleon, Ponyta, and Horsea, while also being able to force damage on mons like Meowth and Arbok.
I think Charm is the better of the two fires, and a huge part of this is that Slash chunks fire-neutral mons (waters and fires) much harder. This lets you do things such as dent Wartortle to enable Ponyta/Horsea, or just force damage in a mirror. Speaking of mirrors, the Slash/Sub/Counter mindgames are still present. The fires are also good at bullying Ivysaur which is nice.
One of the greatest glow-ups of all time holy fuck. I'm not sure if it was the departure of Muk that made this thing good, or if we were all just bad previously (probably a mixture of both) but this mon is really fucking powerful, especially in a tier filled with not-fully evolved Pokemon. This mon is also the father of Ivysaur, as it can hard switch in post-sleep, not fearing body slam paralysis, then set up agi/sub for free (not always sub tho!!!). A farfetch'd with Agility up is, in my opinion, the scariest mon in the tier. The main thing holding it back is that it is quite slow before agility.
Ivysaur is a terrible Pokemon that has a broken move. Sleep ensures it is relavant, and a big part of SU openings are centered around getting Ivy sleep off, but this mon is exploitable as fuck. You let mons come in and click the substitute button and now you have zero momentum. I hate using Ivysaur but sleep is so broken that I feel forced to bring it. Double-Edge is a good move that can break farf sub in 1 hit, def better than SD or any other 4th option imo
The speed it has over Charmeleon is very nice, you outspeed Arbok and tie Pikachu/Meowth. It can be used either as an alternative to Charm or both alongside each other. I generally prefer Charm because I value counter and the higher physical damage output, but the two are pretty similar.
A2 Rank: Pikachu is a very interesting mon. Our team discussed lead Pikachu teams extensively, coming to the conclusion that it can't work on a "traditional" team. The problem is that your opponent can absorb a twave with a fire then go ivysaur to sleep, and now they have sleep + a sleepblocker, effectively making your ivysaur useless meaning ur playing 4v6, which is very bad. However if you drop ivysaur and build around stuff that exploit the early para pikachu spreads, you will be a lot more sucseeful. Back pikachu is a good lategame mon for tortle/horsea endgames too.
I think farf is generally better as a slash user since it is stronger and bulkier than Meowth, but Meowth's speed, tied with Ponyta and Pikachu, makes it good. It's the most honest mon in the tier imo, as Slash gives guaranteed value but cannot crit, giving Meowth a high floor and a low ceiling
I have soured on Horsea a bit now that Wartortle is in the tier, still really destructive if Tortle is dead but its a huge hurdle to overcome. Marowak and Ponyta existing is good for Horsea though, and it is still a dangerous lategame sweeper.
Marowak is really weird, it's great against Arbok and decent against fires (outside of burn). It has good defensive stats but pure-ground is rlly not a great typing for SU, with Ivysaur and all the Water-types. Tortle is mostly better as a slow glue mon due to water being a better defensive typing and stacking both tortle and maro.
B Rank
Budget Horsea that outspeeds Ivysaur, which is valuable. I think its good in lead but hard to justify in the back
Scout-specific mon imo, eaten alive by waters and farf but rlly good into fires and pika, so if a scout leans more into those guys this is a good call
Lack of STAB means it's kinda outclased by farf as an offensive flier, and Arbok is kinda the fast generalist hyperbeam mon now. 90 speed and flying-typing still gives it a place but hard to justify over bok/farf
I don't think SD is good on licki but a good special movepool + being the only good user of STAB Hyper Beam are good traits. 30 base speed is just really really bad, and tortle/maro are better slowmons
First of all if you run into Ivysaur lead you are in a REALLY bad position, as u get slept turn 1 and lose momentum. You're aiming for a fast lead (such as charm and bok) so you twave it turn 1. Now they switch to Ivysaur turn 2 and same issue as Pikachu, you gave them free sleep and a sleepblocker but its EVEN WORSE now since at least Pikachu could get a twave off on Ivysaur without getting slept.
But let's say your opponent decides to fight Clefairy with their lead. If they beat clefairy, you have to revenge and are now behind on momentum. If you win though, it's STILL BAD since they revenge with Ivysaur, and now you're forced into a mindgame, since Clefairy is likely chipped into Razor leaf you either have to stay and risk dying to razor leaf (opening up ivy sleep on something else) or switch and risk switching into powder. If you predict right, your opp will either sleep your clefairy or switch out of whatever switched into razor leaf, but if you predict wrong you LOSE AN ENTIRE POKEMON. THIS 50/50 IS WEIGHED SO HEAVILY AGAINST YOU AND THIS IS THE GOOD OUTCOME WHERE YOU WON THE LEAD MATCHUP! WHY ARE YOU USING A LEAD WHERE EVEN IF YOU WIN THE LEAD 1V1 YOU ARE STILL IN A BAD POSITION??? JUST USE PIKACHU INSTEAD IF YOU WANT A TWAVE LEAD
yeah i don't like this mon LOL, but twave is valuable so I think back clef has some use, but even here pika is better most of the time
I really really want to like Weepinbell since Stun Spore fixes so many of Ivysaur's passivity issues, but being slower than tortle is TERRIBLE. Genuinely the existence of Wartortle kills Weepinbell which is so sad.
The fact that this SU has real ground-types (maro and diglett) makes Voltorb a lot scarier to use than Pikachu, surf doing more damage to fires is also nice
Still a hater of this mon, no Hyper Beam, awful STAB, fast but not fast enough to tie the 90s. Hard to justify over Bok or Fires imo
Sadly Farfetch'd has shown it is the superior bird, but drill peck and the extra speed makes this still usable
Hard walling Farfetch'd is nice but a complete mu fish for the bird, you also have switchins in Ivy/Maro/Tortle so ur not even rlly sinking ur opp's momentum that much
Slow, bad typing, use Maro/Tortle instead
We discussed this mon a bit, Boom and decent physical bulk are nice, but then you remember this mon has zero stats outside of defense in a tier with three better waters
Has similar issues with Rhyhorn except ur better into fires, but fires are common in lead and u cant switch this into lead fires because Ivy will punish you hard
Being below base 80 is giga ass because of Arbok/Charmeleon, outclassed by lee even tho chan has agi, and lee is also ass lol so no reason to use this
good post that i agree with almost in its entirety, just wanna tack on that when i started building myself i just added wartortle to every team and for me hes a clear #1. you can go solo horsea instead but i just dont see the point of dropping wartortle in most situations, it basically always trades positive unless enemy wartortle is involved, cant really be exploited (giving ivy an entry point is not a big deal so long as your build isn't comically weak to it), and you can tech rest to make horsea look like an idiot too if you're feeling extra mean
i think this is a tier where prepping & having the right 'frequencies' is very crucial, if your fires are too high im just gonna load infinite waters and kill you, if your arbok is too high im gonna load infinite marowak and kill you, if your horsea/goldeen are too high im just gonna load rest wartortle and kill you, etc etc. maybe even high farf could have a punish (rhyhorn/kabuto/geodude) though i never had the stones or the time to properly give them a go. The Good SUer has enough variety to make these kinds of counterteams impossible (i was not a good SUer for a little bit and got digletted and that taught me a lot)
a lot of the mickey stuff i didn't really explore much, there might be some cool stuff in the lower ranks. but the top ranks are very simple and type chart-y, and making sure your scout as a whole doesn't have a type weakness is pretty important in a context where people are prepping
godspeed to The Mainers who will continue SUing, i might come back to this tier in the next rbyompl lol
Coming at you with a meta update for RBY SU this summer! Here's my observations from how RBY OMPL, RBY SU Discord 2025 tour, and RBY Fight Club SU Open went.
APOLOGIZING TO ARBOK
Get your ukeleles, sweatpants, and no make-up faces on, because I need to make an apology video to Arbok. In my last post, I claimed that Arbok's qualities totaled up to it being more B-level than A-level after feeling unimpressed by it compared to a lot of the faster structures in the metagame. However, Arbok has shrugged off that label and found its way back to being one of the most consistent Pokemon outside of the big 3. Good for her! I do think there's still some flaws Arbok introduces like its risky speed ties against Charmeleon, inviting Ivysaur in to use Sleep Powder, and being very weak to Marowak and slower teams, but it's ultimately one of the better non-mandatory considerations for teams because of how well-rounded and easy to fit it is. I sort of need to apologize to Marowak too, as I also claimed that it was struggling with the faster pace of the metagame. With Arbok getting more established and Marowak being a good answer to a lot of the faster and squishy Pokemon, I'm happy to see that Marowak has found a lot more of its footing in the tier.
THE BIG THREE
What I have been pretty spot-on about though since making my last post was the presence that Ivysaur, Charmeleon, and Wartortle have in the metagame. You'll get different answers from everyone on which one is actually the true number one, but there's a pretty big division in how frequently many people actually bring these Pokemon that emphasizes that the three of them are a step above everything else in the tier. The three of them have this iron triangle they've created at the top of the metagame where Charmeleon makes running Wartortle better, Wartortle makes Ivysaur better, and Ivysaur makes Charmeleon better. While there are alternatives of varying quality for each of them, not all of them actually eat into their viability or usage. Ponyta's natural Speed is nice for getting the jump on Arbok, but it tends to join Charmeleon on Fire-spam teams rather than replace it entirely. Similarly, Horsea and Goldeen don't really steal Wartortle's place on teams, as they're often teaming up with it on Water-spam teams that can improve a team's matchup against the aforementioned Fire-spam teams. With those last two points said, Ivysaur remains the hegemonic (more like hedge-monic am I right haha) Grass-type of the tier, and that's actually more to do with Wartortle's presence than its natural traits over Weepinbell. Outspeeding Wartortle and just having the chance to speed tie both Horsea and opposing Ivysaur are often important enough traits that Weepinbell has continued to sit on the sidelines.
RISING STARFETCH'D
Farfetch'd is hands-down the biggest rising star, something I'm really happy to see after riding it for a couple years at this point. Hard to even believe it's been multiple years of RBY SU, but that's besides the point! Farfetch'd has been held back a lot by older metagame factors like gastlies described that made it really tough to get good showings with, which turned people away from using it until we've arrived in this current metagame. RBY SU's 2023 period had Fire Blast + Thunderbolt + Explosion Weezing, which itself forced Rhyhorn onto a lot of teams, and both of these were not good ingredients for Farfetch'd to put in work. Fast forward to 2024 and Weezing and Rhyhorn left... only for Magneton and Muk to drop down. Magneton went on to get banned, but its presence made running Farfetch'd pretty much a non-starter, and Muk kept a lot of the traits like Fire Blast and Thunderbolt that made running Farfetch'd difficult, enough that it was even forcing Geodude onto teams in a similar dynamic to Weezing with Rhyhorn. Now we're in 2025, and my agenda of recognizing that Normal-types are always insane in lower tiers has come to pass. Farfetch'd is one of the most impressive Agility sweepers in the tier, even with Horsea and Goldeen around, and it's one of the best opportunists against Ivysaur considering it isn't slowed down by Body Slam. Slash being all Farfetch'd needs for a move makes it amazingly independent, and its best answers, Rhyhorn and Geodude, are tougher to run on teams compared to Marowak, especially because Marowak can be so punishing against them. We may still see the pendulum swing back on Farfetch'd, and there are some flaws it has like failing to get a critical hit all of the time with Slash, but it's clearly established itself as a strong force in the tier.
Besides these big 3 (callback!) observations, there hasn't been a huge amount that has changed for RBY SU, which kind of makes sense when the tierlist has not been updated. Pikachu, Ponyta, Meowth, and Diglett are still good fast attackers, and Golbat is still a quirky but okay alternative to Arbok on teams that want a little more Speed and a potential Ground immunity. Goldeen's living her truth as a great third Water-type, even queening out on triple Water teams, and the wider sentiment on its has gotten a lot more positive than when a smaller group of people had just seen it in the forum tour. Although Hitmonlee has fallen off, a couple of miscellaneous options are still hanging in there, but a lot of the effective picks in RBY SU have crystallized into six camps: The Big 3, Arbok, Agility sweepers, fast attackers, tanks (Marowak and Lickitung mainly, sometimes Rhyhorn and others), and then the miscellaneous options like Clefairy that sometimes get picked up for specific cases.
I'll be putting together a new RBY SU viability resource later this summer, so stay tuned for that when the time comes to put it together. I hope everyone has been enjoying RBY SU, as I feel this is some of the most fun and fresh it's been since its inception, and it's already a great tier.
Thoughts on the SU metagame as of now, after some tournaments to stabilized the tier.
S Charmeleon cements itself as, in my opinion, the best Pokémon in the tier; it excels at every point in the game as it's great in the lead, can make progress mid game, and can clean late game. It has a large edge over Ponyta because of slash and counter, allowing for it to have a slightly better match-up against both the waters and Farf.
Ivysaur still dictates many games, as its fast sleep can shut down any Pokémon of your choice. Though passive after sleep, it's good bulk means it can still threaten significant chip on Pokémon without a super effective move or isn't named Farfetch'd.
A1 Arbok is an incredibly consistent Pokémon in making progress, no matter where it is. Having a high speed and access to Earthquake and Hyper Beam makes it incredibly threatening offensively, and it's good bulk give it the ability to switch in. But without STAB it's numbers aren't jaw-dropping, but always good enough and with a high crit-rate very little wants to switch in.
Even though Wartortle is slower than Ivysaur, it more than makes up for that in consistency, stopping the fires and other waters while soft checking almost every Pokémon in the tier, making it very easily top five.
Holy smokes, this guy is unstoppable. When agility is set up, it can be a headache to deal with, and the same applies when a reflect is set up. It hits like a bus, and you must have a game plan for Farfetch'd or you will lose one or more Pokémon. Middling bulk brings it back to earth as most special moves chunk it greatly and Maro and Licki give it a very rough time.
Ponyta does mostly the same things Charmeleon does, but more straightforward, as it trades counter and physical damage for speed. It somewhat makes up for this with agility; however, I don't find myself using this move very often, as it is already fast enough to outspeed almost everything. However, it can allow you to play more riskily with your fire types and can make room for either of them to sweep.
A2 Horsea is the water that's more geared towards late game cleaning; however, later into the meta, with Wartortle rising in usage, this becomes much more difficult. Still, its sweeping ability on a softened team is incredible.
Lickitung became increasingly more clutch to me as time went on, as it is one of the few SU Pokémon that can run more than one set. Using any of Counter, Thunderbolt, Swords Dance, or Blizzard can change what the switch-ins to Licki are, and how your opponent has to play into it. However, without a Swords Dance boost it's power can be lackluster and without the other coverage options it can be easy to counter.
Fast versitile electric type. Electric/Water coverage scares everything except for Ivysaur and Licki, the latter of which is not often seen. Ivysaur is usually quickly dealt with in the early game which leaves pikachu to blow holes. However, in practice this is easier said than done as pika can not ever switch into anything due to it's abysmal bulk.
Marowak is a tank. Has a great matchup into Arbok as well as spooking Farfetch'd and the fires, this alone makes it a good choice. However, the lack of other physical attackers seriously hurt Marowak's viability, as it can't switch into any special attack without being terrified. Electric immunity is good but with pika as the main elec makes it not much more than a pivot in that aspect.
B1 Meowth used to be a top five Pokémon for me however Farfetch'd usually outclasses it as a hard hitting normal type, the speed is incredibly useful to set it apart from other normal types, it can clean up many games but it needs holes already placed in it for it to be used effectively.
Goldeen has been one of my favorite Pokémon to build around, when you see it the game plan is immediately apparent, to blow holes in water checks for Horsea to abuse later in the game. Its ability to whittle down Wartortle makes it a great lead on offensive geared teams. It also is notably faster than Ivy and although it doesnt threaten it too much it is usually enough to scare it away from switching in.
Golbat is still incredibly potent has a Pokémon that fills Arbok's role with a different set of weaknesses. It lacks earthquake meaning it is worse against fire types but the extra speed and flying type makes it better into Arbok. However it is worse into many other top Pokémon so fitting onto a team can be difficult.
With Marowak and Diglett around it at times can make it difficult to try and justify Torb over Pika, but boom and a slight power increase is good enough to sometimes run that risk. Ground types are also not incredibly common to see, meaning this can be something to bring if your op doesn't use them often. Even though boom only OHKOs Ivy on a crit, it does put it in range of a Horsea Blizzard so I really like that pairing. Forever fishing for a crit OHKO boom on Ivy.
B2 It outspeeds everything except Voltorb which it beats. Can be really scary into teams without 2 water types but is stuffed by teams that are ready for it.
This thing will always be a niche pick until SU gets a different statuser. Feels like a momentum sink most of the time in the early game as para can be used by your opponent to have a sleep absorber.
C Rhyhorn is the best normal resist in the tier and completely walls Farfetch'd. However, teams naturally have 2-3 pokemon that check Rhyhorn and letting in Waters can be very detrimental.
If this thing wasn't outsped by Wartortle it would be a force to reckon with, but we live in an unfair world so it only serves as a niche role compresser.
Just slow enough to always need an Agility and just weak enough to always need a Swords Dance and you usually only ever have time for one.
Although it has high attack and speed, fighting typing gives High Jump Kick the option to nuke many neutral or super effective targets. However, it is outclassed by other fast attackers that have better typing, higher speeds, and more flexibility.
It has good fire and Farfetch'd matchups but is messed up by Ivysaur
Unique as a slow bulky attacker, but is an afterthought compared to Marowak or Lickitung.
Really cool typing and move pool make it usable, but no stats and wrap banned makes this thing very sad.
Rhyhorn that can boom I guess, still has all the same flaws except is weaker outside of boom.
Farfetch'd with even less bulk and way less power, yuck
A water type with explosion is nice in cases but Shellder falls completely flat after that.
now that wrap is banned, there is no use for weepingbell, as it main niche was wrap C -> UR
Lickitung now has one less tool to do something with. As much as i hate to say it, my goats gotta go. Maybe it'll do something in IU B -> C
The poison i think are still fine, but Golbat could be significantly worse B -> C maybe
im so smart guys trust
SU also observes all transitive bans from higher tiers in accordance with the RBY lower tiers transitive bans policy. This includes the ZU partial-trapping moves ban and will include any future bans made after the implementation of the policy.
Hi! The RBY SU council will be reaching out for additional VR submissions so we can put together a newer VR with a more diverse pool of players now that SU has undergone several more tournaments on and off of Smogon following the Confuse Ray and Partial Trapping move bans. We are reaching out to the following non-council players who played three sets and won one in RBY OMPL or made top 4 in either the RBY SU Discord 2025 Open or RBY SU Fight Club tours.
Submissions can be done in this thread, DMs, or sending them to me on Discord. The deadline for submissions will be two weeks from today on August 4th.
Edit - Personal VR tool link
To all Ivysaur S-rank voters: I have unleashed an immortal Farfetch'd that will always move to your location. If it touches you it will use Slash and you will die
RBY SU has probably been one of my favourite tiers to have played as of late. There are tons of interesting quirks and innovation to be had within the tier, and I would like to run down my given thoughts on not only the tier itself, but my building process throughout the RBYOMPL tour, with some light mentions of the Discord tour that had been running simulatiously.
Week 1 vs. Maris Bonibell
Approaching Week 1, I believed Maris to be one of if not the toughest player in the pool given their lower tier experiences and knowledge within the RBY SU metagame. One advantage I had however, was that they had previous games that I could pull insight from to create an advantage for myself. What I understood based on games and other opinions is that Maris is REALLY high on double Water cores (in particular: Goldeen and Horsea). Pokemon such as Pikachu and Wartortle were excellent picks for being able to threaten these cores in hopes to provide any form of advantage I could've gotten this set.
Game 1 (W) - https://pokepast.es/2e227839504cbf6c
As mentioning in the opening section, my mission here was to find answers to Goldeen/Horsea structures while maintaining a solid team. Our idea was to go double Water of our own, but with Wartortle instead of Goldeen as an effective control option with Counter to thwart off physical attackers such as Farfetch'd and Golbat. Lead Ivy navigates around everything not named Charmeleon or Ponyta. Meowth (our star player for this game) is an effective cleaner with Thunderbolt to target Wartortle and Bubble Beam for Maro/Rhyhorn. Overall, I think this game went well, I almost misplayed with the Ivysaur sleep interaction, but everything else was navigated well.
Game 2 (W) - https://pokepast.es/d1021931a490b31e
Lickitung is probably the most interesting Pokemon in the tier. Given that it has a plethora of options and coverage moves in its movepool, Lickitung functions as a great jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none kind of Pokemon. Lickitung appreciates paralysis from Arbok and Pikachu, which are capable of trading and breaking down numerous threats within the tier. Pikachu is effective in handling Horsea/Goldeen structures, which Maris often brought leading up to this set. While I am proud to see Lickitung providing value and sweeping during that game, it was unfortunate that it required luck going my way towards the end-game. Competitive Pokemon can be a pain sometimes, sorry Maris.
Game 3 (Didn't bring) - https://pokepast.es/7f416700bdfc5cd4
Psyduck is almost objectively worse than Wartortle, but it has some benefits over it thanks to Amnesia. That being said, it is a difficult Pokemon to set up with due to its lacklusture Speed and there are better paralysis abusers such as Horsea and Lickitung. I ended up using this team in the Discord Tour vs. Lillith here.
v1 of Game 1 - https://pokepast.es/394dff69cbfb765f
(Wanted a safer team in the off chance Maris decided against Goldeen + Horsea, but was immediately scrapped for a safer double Water matchup. Leer, while situational, helps Rhyhorn reset paralysis from Agility sweepers like Farfetch'd and Ponyta. However, this concept felt rather gimmicky and didn't suit well against Maris's playstyle.)
v1 of Game 2 - https://pokepast.es/d3f4c8b8b02fbb60
(Ended up going for Agility > Reflect because Body Slam paralysis is somewhat common from opposing Ponyta lead and Ivysaur on the switch-in.)
A strong performance and happy to have achieved the first SU team tournament win. A good standard to set for week 1, and hopefully this leads to a strong season overall.
Week 2 vs. Amaranth
One big observation I noticed was there was a solid level of double Fire teams brought from week 1. From my own self-scout, I also noticed we brought a lot of Pikachu and relatively frail, fast physical attackers. Marowak was likely going to be brought from Amaranth, as well as the standard double Fire and Arbok teams, making certain Pokemon outstanding candidates.
Game 1 (L) - https://pokepast.es/f226820adac26cf0
While I am somewhat hesitant of Goldeen's viability, double Water generally matched up well with Amaranth's scout. Furthermore, being able to reliably outspeed Ivysaur without an Agility boost allows you to secure crucial Blizzard KOs against it. Double-Edge in the right situation helps answer Wartortle if you are capable of navigating around Counter. Marowak also matched up well into the scout given the 100% Arbok usage. In terms of how the game went, I think this team in the right circumstances could perform naturally; just unfortunate luck came into question here (I was outplayed by Farfetch'd regardless).
Game 2 (W) - https://pokepast.es/0c972d479a5ab205
I'm somewhat proud of this team. Reflect and Rest is an amazing combination for Wartortle given the many Pokemon the struggle to penetrate through. Fire- and Water-types such as Charmeleon, Horsea, and Ponyta struggle to break Wartortle down. When Reflect is up, Pokemon such as Arbok, Diglett, Screech-less Golbat, and the niche Fighting-types of the tier also struggle to break down Wartortle. The rest of the team is moderately standard. Marowak helps against the Electric-types and strong Normal-type wallbreakers such as Farfetch'd and Meowth, being able to trade with them outside of paralysis.
Game 3 (L) - https://pokepast.es/ef66ebb8fc9b8c84
To be honest, I didn't really know what I should load for game 3. Another Meowth team in my head seemed cool given its capabilities of revenge killing, and Marowak is an amazing trading piece as referenced earlier. The issue with this team came down to not having enough tools to deal with Ivysaur reliably, and Arbok being used as a sleep sack didn't help the situation. I think I played game 3 well all things considered, but my misplays during the early game was what led to my demise.
Shellder + Pikachu Offense - https://pokepast.es/b613f263d7019ae6
This concept I tried to mess around with numerous times but I couldn't find myself to bring it. Shellder is a very good lead against someone who doesn't often run lead Ivysaur. Bubble Beam / Blizzard to Explosion helps to trade effectively with a solid amount of the tier. The rest of the team looks to make up for being able to blow up a significant piece of the opponent's team in the effort of a 5v5.
Overall, it was a tight set, but I think a lot of my early game navigation was poor throughout the set, which caused me to lose that set. In hindsight, I should have looked to build around Diglett as I was slowly looking to explore other options within the tier which could exploit their team structure, but I didn't capitalize on that knowledge before it was too late. Despite the misfortune in game one, I am glad about this set, and it gave me some pointers heading into next week on what I needed to do better.
Week 3 vs. Michael Jordan
After the tough loss against Amaranth, I needed to find a way to bounce back. Thankfully, we were playing against a somewhat struggling PoryGOATs team that had already faced 2 losses earlier in the season. That doesn't mean to undermine MJ, however, as his win against Sadistic_Narwhal the previous week was nothing short of impressive. A lot of observations we had from MJ's scout were Horsea and Wartortle/Goldeen and double Fire cores, leading to some potential options on what could be used this week.
Game 1 (L) - https://pokepast.es/b65ed832b034a528
Farfetch'd looked to perform well given the high Ivysaur, Lickitung, and Arbok usage. Farfetch'd is also a relatively solid Agility sweeper in the right occasions, and the use of Substitute allows it to deny Counter. I underwent numerous tests with this team and previously used this in a Discord tour vs. Maris Bonibell here. In this game however, I don't think I ultimately played the best this game, in particular with too much use of switching and Substitute throughout this game. I almost pulled off a really dodgy comeback, but it was not to be.
Game 2 (W) - https://pokepast.es/ec3337128851e20d
I decided to reuse the team I brought against Amaranth the previous week, as it had potential and it did solid against the rest of MJ's scouting. I also think the use of Marowak was able to handle double Fire and the Arbok/Golbat teams that were often brought. To keep things real, I don't believe I deserved this game either, but I was glad to get away with a crucial paralysis in the clutch to take it to game 3. This game for me brought up the question on Smokescreen for Horsea, however, which I'll bring forward as a talking point later on in this post.
Game 3 (W) - https://pokepast.es/0f2990c1142b4693
In short, I wasn't feeling the most confident in playing, but I knew if I was able to pull off some tomfoolery in game 2, then I could do the same in game 3. This is probably the most defensive-minded team I have brought all tour, with Rest included on both Wartortle and Golbat. Now, my expectations this game were for double Fire to be brought again alongside a myriad of things that Rest Wartortle could check. I also expected a little bit more of Marowak this game, as a lot of the teams I brought contained Pikachu and frail attackers that Marowak could take advantage of. Truthfully, I went a little too crackpot with this team, and I'd like to give credit to Torkon for talking me down to using another version of this team. If he didn't talk me down from it, I would've almost certainly lost this game. As for the result itself, I ended up taking the win through Substitute in turn 55, and we squeezed out the victory from there.
Shellder + Pikachu Offense v2 - https://pokepast.es/05dd9eb170494cfb
I had another variant of Shellder offense that I had initially thought would be a really solid bring against MJ, but I opted against it due to how tough the Ivysaur matchup would've been had MJ ended up pulling out the Ivysaur lead.
Kabuto + Rest Golbat - https://pokepast.es/372cd21582ef3339
This was the original version of the Game 3 team. I think Kabuto has a place in this metagame, but this was certainly not the right team for it.
While it wasn't the cleanest or strongest performance I had presented, this was a crucial one to get us to the first win in our third attempt. The team had gotten a bit hard done by in other slots and this win was crucial in putting us back on track in being capable challengers for RBYOMPL. We'll see how week 4 treats us.
Week 4 vs. Larry
Leading up to this, Larry felt like a strange opponent to play against. While both I and Larry matched the record of 2-1 at the time, I felt both of us needed to prove our wins weren't down to fluke or luck, so this match probably meant the most to me throughout the regular season. Noticing a bunch of these teams, there feels to be a lot of jank on them. There have been a lot of Charmeleon-less teams, a distinct lack of lead Ivysaur, and a near 100% Wartortle usage rate. This should make the teambuilding process quite interesting.
Game 1 (W) - https://pokepast.es/026dd33c81b91a82
Based off of the scouts, the team I brought for week 3 felt incredibly good going into Larry's scout. There are no new comments I could honestly make on this team; just expect this team to be brought to more games throughout this tour.
Game 2 (L) - https://pokepast.es/f3e337617e60387f
Diglett lead was suggested to me by Acluh in the earlier weeks and I decided to take a punt on it. I wanted to use double Fire here as I had infrequent use of the archetype and I wanted to switch up my playstyle in the event Larry was going to capitalize on it. In short, this was the game that convinced me double Fire wasn't a great archetype. This wasn't a great bring on my end, and I don't believe I had played that well either, but I knew I had to lock in for game 3 nonetheless.
Game 3 (W) - https://pokepast.es/bd988feb23751bc2
In the midst of my Rest Wartortle hype, I brought this bulkier styled team against Larry as he tended to bring faster threats that overloaded specific team structures. I was often using Golbat and Marowak before discovering Farfetch'd did most of its job better, and it proved to be effective towards this game.
Voltorb + Farfetch'd Offense - https://pokepast.es/b40f2c42665ab2ab
Voltorb lead was something I discovered that could've worked into Larry's scout. Given the high amounts of Water-type usage, Voltorb would've been important in capitalizing on them. Farfetch'd would've also been helpful as a bulky, yet offensive threat that could come into post-Sleep Powder Ivysaur, click Substitute on it, and sweep from here. The main concerns I noticed with this team were its matchup to Ground-types like Marowak and Rhyhorn, which could've had significant value here.
I've said it to a bunch of people, but if there was one opponent I wanted to make sure I didn't lose to, it would be Larry, primarily because I felt a lot of his team selections throughout this tour were a bit all over the place. That being said, he's a decent guy when he wants to commit to things, so I'd be interested to see how he does against Amaranth. [foreshadowing]
Week 5 vs. Gerrychu29
If there was someone I wanted to play against the most, it would be Gerrychu. While it has been difficult so far this season for Gerrychu, they have bested me in previous tour sets in the past, and anything could happen in this stage of the tour.
Game 1 (L) - https://pokepast.es/2403d4087e826fa6
My immediate observation about Gerrychu is their frequent use of lead Clefairy to counter threats such as Arbok and Charmeleon. While Clefairy is a capable user of paralysis, you lose a lot of momentum against Ivysaur lead. Diglett is a helpful revenge killer, as Gerrychu often looks to use fast Pokemon like Pikachu, Meowth, and Arbok. I think Torkon played this game fine, but he could've looked to play more aggressively with Diglett, pivoting into Thunder Wave on Turn 26. Regardless, he was a bit unfortunate not to have won this game.
Game 2 (NP) - https://pokepast.es/7b62a8f2ce46038c
Torkon ditched the teams that I had made and said, "I'll do it by myself," and won in spectacular fashion, so I guess I'll need to explain this without the replay. Voltorb is a fascinating Pokemon that I've wanted to bring, given its easy way of gaining momentum through paralysis spreading. Voltorb also would've been helpful given that Gerrychu had never brought a Ground-type (Marowak, Rhyhorn, or Diglett) in all except one game (vs. Larry in the previous week) prior to that point, making it an excellent way to force progress. Another thing to note is that Gerrychu doesn't often switch up the teams; they tend to bring in any capacity, often sticking to 3-5 teams that they are comfortable with and rolling them throughout the tour. This made Gerrychu effortless to scout, and based on the game two replay, this team would've sufficed well against the lead Clefairy, Marowak, and Pikachu madness
Game 3 (NP) - https://pokepast.es/0dd5f9975d0b62d4
This is the same team that I brought in previous weeks, with the minor change of Golbat having Screech over Rest. This team has performed reliably, and I wanted to use a comfort team to navigate around Gerrychu. In hindsight, bringing two Fire-types would've allowed this team to pop off well and would've made things a lot easier for Torkon, especially given that his luck had almost cost him the game. Thankfully, the instant wake-up pulled through.
The one time I'm properly ready to gear up, I end up falling asleep. My apologies to Gerrychu once again; I had to play a tiresome cricket game earlier in the day, and I had felt somewhat exhausted. Thankfully, TorkonPeter was able to squeeze out a result in my absence, and we were able to secure a pretty good 6-0 for this week. This is the part I'd like to shout out PKMN Master™ (Shane) once again, because he has been doing such an amazing job with assisting tiers such as Little Cup and NC 1997, and I don't think any of this could've happened without him.
Semi Finals vs. Larry
I think this game was probably the one I was dreading the most. More because I think I'm 0-6 in team tour semi-final games up to this point. That being said, I'll need to change my fortunes around if I want to start winning. Going into this game, I somewhat underestimated Larry. 3-2 up to that point, and to be quite honest, I feel Amaranth gave the set away to Larry in that Week 5 game, which didn't really shine a great light towards Larry. Regardless, this would be another interesting week for gaming.
Game 1 (L) - https://pokepast.es/11cc3ca9f4913ac9
My defensive mindset really presented itself this game with the Rest Wartortle and the Lickitung shenanigans. I think the idea was right to bring more fat into Larry because he was performing similar shenanigans with Marowak, Wartortle, Lickitung, and Farfetch'd usage. Pikachu in conjunction with a bulky Water-type would also help ease into the matchup. Larry was able to exploit the resting Wartortle, as it ended up being dead weight once it slept. While Lickitung was positioned well to have swept, Reflect Farfetch'd stole the game towards the end (credit where credit is due; that was a great bring from Larry). My biggest comment is I poorly navigated with Pikachu towards turn 20, which ended up being my downfall here rather than sacking a sleeping Wartortle, but it is what it is.
Game 2 (L) - https://pokepast.es/7696790046fb3087
This is probably the worst I've played this entire tournament, as I somewhat felt lost throughout that set. I could give a rundown of everything I did wrong, but here are my observations that I noticed throughout this game here.
Game 3 (Didn't bring) - https://pokepast.es/b8eaa1f5175a9597
Voltorb is such a fascinating Pokemon to use. While in most cases it is preferred to be brought in the lead, I feel this Pokemon has a lot of potential sitting in the back and bringing itself in as a strong cleaner and late-game trading piece. Furthermore, Rhyhorn sees limited usage due to the volatile state it and Geodude have against top Pokemon such as Horsea, Ivysaur, and Wartortle, giving Voltorb the freedom to spread paralysis, revenge kill, and click Explosion to bring the team into a better position. While I didn't get to use it, I had brought this team against Maris Bonibell during the Discord tour here, where it simply aurafarmed.
Semi Finals Tiebreaker vs. Larry
The decision to put SU in for the tiebreak was from the opinions of Shane, Terraspark, and Bleahey instead of my own, but the reasoning for the rematch was simple. I had the confidence and the record to best Larry in another Bo3 set, there was a serious opportunity to redeem myself, and I needed to lead off by example. Stadium OU (our other tier choice) was picked at the randomizer anyway, so it didn't matter either way.
Game 1 (L) - https://pokepast.es/40996c9c31b91ba8
I think what I needed to do against Larry going forward was to switch up my playstyle and focus more on creating offensive pressure instead of sitting back and finding the opportunity. Forcing the sleep early on and trading pieces was the way forward here. This team with Horsea and Wartortle was suitable for the Charmeleon and Ponyta teams that had continued to pop up from Larry, and it did alright with testing. I somewhat struggled with the Sleep Powder miss in this game, and Farfetch'd ended up doing laps around this team with Agility and Substitute, making it impossible to recover from there.
Game 2 (L) - https://pokepast.es/999db1594ab05571
This was another take on the Marowak and Farfetch'd phenomenon that was really starting to peak towards the latter stages of the playoffs. Lead Pikachu was designed as an anti-lead, paralyzing and trading with Charmeleon, among other various leads, and using that momentum to build into an advantage. Pikachu is also a solid revenge killer, being a better lead against Marowak by catching it on the Surf rather than relying on Explosion to deal damage. Charmeleon was helpful in the back to help navigate around what could've been opposing Farfetch'd and Ponyta. Being honest here, I don't think I played this too well, and a well-timed Substitute from Farfetch'd called it game. This wasn't the prettiest team all tour either, but I did bring this in game three against TorkonPeter in the ongoing Discord Tour, helping secure the bracket reset and later winning in a hax-fested six games.
Game 3 (NP) - https://pokepast.es/b6f7f9b434454c06
This is simply the comfort team but with Counter instead of Rest. I don't really have much of a comment about, it is simply a solid team.
I had a lot of other ideas coming into this tiebreaker as I needed to find a way to break through Larry's team. Here are a set list of teams that were proposed:
If I am being honest, I was a little frustrated with my own play, especially towards the tail end of this tour, but I believe I performed well given the set of circumstances, and I loved the opportunity to be participating in the first-ever SU tour for any generation. I had a blast, and I would love to see how RBYOMPL takes us in the future with returning franchises and other tiers that I'd be more than ready to explore.
My Thoughts on the Metagame
There is a lot to talk about RBY SU and its current state. While I could easily split this up into multiple posts, I figured this would be the better way to present my analysis on the RBY SU metagame. Before I go into that, however, I recommend checking out Missangelic's post above, as there is a ton of insightful information in the post, but I have some more comments to make that I feel might be beneficial.
Agility
Agility is one of the best moves in the SubZero Used metagame. Pokemon such as Horsea and Goldeen have risen up in viability because of the discovery of Agility, as they are capable of cleaning up many late-game threats such as Charmeleon, Hitmonlee, and Meowth. Goldeen and Horsea are also capable of applying pressure on teams, forcing Ivysaur and Wartortle onto the field. Other Pokemon such as Farfetch'd and Doduo, while on the niche side of things, have also crept up in usage due to their damage output and having access to Agility, making them strong cleaners in the mid-late game. Finally, Ponyta can run Agility to help mitigate paralysis from Body Slam users such as Charmeleon and Ivysaur, and Thunder Wave users such as Clefairy and Pikachu.
Double Fire
I'm going to be honest here. Double Fire is probably the most overrated archetype in RBY SU. While it is great at pressuring Ivysaur as well as some physical attackers such as Arbok and Golbat with a 30% burn chance, Charmeleon can be pressured with paralysis from the likes of Clefairy and Pikachu, while Ponyta suffers from a lack of utility outside of Agility and Stomp. Water-types are also prominent in the tier. Pokemon such as Wartortle and Horsea are excellent at capitalizing on Charmeleon and Ponyta. Other Pokemon such as Pikachu and Meowth, are great at revenge killing and trading with the Fire-types due to their speed, forms of utility, and strong offenses and coverage to help break through. Meowth doesn't have to worry as much about burn chances due to Slash ignoring critical hits. Diglett outspeeds Ponyta and can 2HKO them with Earthquake. Marowak is able to threaten a paralyzed Fire-type with Earthquake if they experience some chip damage. While double Fire has its appeal, it is often taken advantage of by several Pokemon in the metagame, making it somewhat difficult to use.
Rest
I strangely have a lot to talk about this one.
Throughout this tour, I have been experimenting with numerous Pokemon using Rest for longevity purposes. Wartortle has been the standout user in my opinion. Thanks to the combination of Seismic Toss and relatively good bulk, Wartortle is able to sit there for numerous turns without making itself feel passive. Rest Wartortle is able to sit on Pokemon such as Charmeleon, Horsea, Goldeen, and Ponyta. Furthermore, with access to Reflect, Wartortle is also capable of walling Arbok, Marowak, and Screechless Golbat barring multiple critical hits. The main drawback to Rest on Wartortle is having to drop Counter, which is helpful to making Pokemon such as Farfetch'd and Hitmonlee easier. If Wartortle opts to use Reflect, then it would need to drop Blizzard, which causes Wartortle to lose out on its best attacking option against Ivysaur and the ability to fish for freeze. Another issue Rest Wartortle often finds itself in is it can be exploited by setup sweepers such as Ivysaur and Lickitung. Ivysaur threatens Wartortle with significant damage thanks to Razor Leaf, while Lickitung can use a resting Wartortle to set up Swords Dance boosts to potentially sweep the game. While there are drawbacks to Wartortle, I believe the advantages of Rest on Wartortle are significant enough to warrant it being used in regular usage.
Golbat is another Pokemon capable of using Rest. Golbat is capable of sitting on Pokemon such as Arbok, Ivysaur, and Diglett, barring significant crits. Golbat struggles as a Rest user, however. While it is capable of sitting on numerous threats in the metagame, it often finds itself as even larger setup bait for Pokemon such as Horsea, Goldeen, Lickitung, and Farfetch'd. Furthermore, relying on non-STAB Double-Edge and Hyper Beam as offensive moves limits Golbat's damage output despite its bulk, making it passive compared to Wartortle outside of Screech sets (which it often has to sacrifice for Rest). While the opportunity cost can be difficult to justify, Rest is a solid option for Golbat for those who require more assistance into Ivysaur.
As we approach further into the depths of the tiering pyramid, the pace at which the metagame is played increases. This can affect slower, yet bulkier Pokemon such as Lickitung and Machoke, which find a harder time thriving in the metagame with Ivysaur threatening sleep, and the opportunity cost of a moveslot is crucial for them. Pokemon that may have significant exploits, such as Marowak and Rhydon, struggle to use Rest given their weakness to Grass- and Water-type attacks, as well as lacking the special bulk Rest users require. Ivysaur doesn't want to give up Swords Dance as a sweeping tool in conjunction with Body Slam, and other Pokemon such as Charmeleon and Horsea simply don't have the bulk to maintain enough HP to reliably use Rest.
Explosion
Explosion is one of the best moves in standard RBY competitive play. While the Pokemon with Explosion may seem difficult to fit, all Pokemon have an interesting purpose. Voltorb is the fastest Pokemon in the tier. It has several other qualities, such as Thunder Wave and Screech, that can allow it to get the most out of Explosion. Voltorb, however, suffers against Ground-types such as Geodude, Marowak, and Rhyhorn, which provide difficulty for Voltorb to break down due to it only having access to Electric- and Normal-type moves.
Shellder is a personal favorite of mine within the tier. I think Shellder has some interesting wiggle room as a lead, given it has solid bulk, which helps against Charmeleon and Arbok. Blizzard and Surf are naturally strong moves that Shellder can use to ensure it is not dead weight if it chooses not to use Explosion at any given turn. Other moves, such as Bubble Beam and Leer, while on the niche end, can provide small additional advantages to Shellder's breaking capabilities.
Geodude also provides adequate Explosion support and doubles as a fine check to Farfetch'd, but it often tends to be difficult switching into most attacking moves, and it can get exploited thanks to many common threats like Ivysaur, Wartortle, and Marowak. Pikachu has Surf to deter it from switching in, and Meowth has Bubble Beam to thwart off Geodude. It is a flawed Pokemon, but I reckon it has some traits that might make it worth considering.
Paralysis
Paralysis plays a crucial role in maintaining balance within the tier, as it can effectively neutralize fast Pokémon like Pikachu and Charmeleon, preventing them from wallbreaking. Pokemon such as Arbok, Clefairy, and Voltorb hold significant niches as leads given their capabilities of paralyzing foes, with each Pokemon having unique ways of threatening them after paralysis (Arbok has access to a plethora of coverage, Clefairy can use Psychic and Blizzard, and Voltorb can threaten to explode, creating momentum).
Pikachu is one of the best abusers and spreaders of paralysis thanks to its strong offensive movepool and its speed. Thunder Wave can lure in Pokemon such as Ivysaur and Arbok, significantly weakening them and allowing other teammates like Farfetch'd to take advantage of their reduced speed. Pikachu's matchup with Charmeleon and Ponyta gets flipped if it gets a turn of full paralysis.
Body Slam is a common sight in this metagame, with Pokemon such as Farfetch'd, Ivysaur, and Ponyta making prominent use of the move to target Charmeleon and Arbok.
Sleep
Ivysaur's viability is often carried by one move: Sleep Powder. It is to no one's surprise that sleep is just as powerful in SU as it is in other tiers, making Ivysaur such a strong Pokemon in that regard. The idea of being able to shut down Pokemon such as Wartortle, Marowak, and Clefairy without them laying a finger on you sounds frightening in prospect. While Machoke could present a significant niche, being slower than Ivysaur and having indirect competition with Marowak holds it back. While sleep is a strong tool for Ivysaur, it can be a bit passive after Sleep Powder has been used, with Pokemon such as Farfetch'd, Lickitung, and Golbat often being frightening prospects for Ivysaur to handle. Moves such as Swords Dance and Double-Edge/Body Slam can help to remedy that somewhat, but it can find difficulty getting itself on the field and creating significant impact after sleep.
Weepinbell is outclassed due to its reduced speed, making it a sitting duck for Horsea and Wartortle with some chip after two Blizzards. Partial Trapping moves are banned thanks to a translative ban from ZU, and Stun Spore doesn't give it enough sufficient utility for it to be a significant part of SU. Sing Clefairy is fake; do not use it.
Accuracy-Lowering Moves
I think accuracy-lowering moves in this tier are fundamentally broken due to the number of abusers we have in SU. Pokemon such as Diglett, Farfetch'd, and Horsea are viable users of accuracy-lowering moves, and they can use them to break through certain Pokemon they wouldn't be able to check. Despite being helpful tools for these Pokemon, the aspect of cheese is brought into question with moves such as Sand Attack and Smokescreen being unhealthy for the tier, and with the former precedent of Confuse Ray being banned due to Golbat breaking through checks it wasn't supposed to, I reckon a similar principle should apply to such moves.
When to use different moves?
I wouldn't recommend running Body Slam on Charmeleon. While the benefits of paralysis may seem appetising, you are unable to break Substitute from Charmeleon, making it worse off into the ditto, as seen from this calc.
Charmeleon Body Slam vs. Charmeleon: 65-77 (20.3 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Double-Edge is an effective tool on Ivysaur so it can break a Substitute from Farfetch'd. Body Slam is helpful for its utility benefits, allowing Ivysaur to paralysis Fire-types such as Charmeleon and Ponyta that would often switch into Ivysaur after a Sleep Powder. Both moves are suitable in their own right (with Body Slam preferred), but Double-Edge can be helpful on faster teams that don't like switching repeatedly into Slash.
Ivysaur Body Slam vs. Farfetch’d: 66-78 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 10.3% chance to break Substitute
Ivysaur Double-Edge vs. Farfetch’d: 77-91 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed broken Substitute
I think Swords Dance on Lickitung (and Farfetch'd) seem mediocre, with utility sets on Lickitung honestly not being used enough because of the amount of tools it possesses such as Blizzard, Hyper Beam, Earthquake, and Counter. It struggles into Ivysaur before it gets the sleep off, but this Pokemon is an effective trading machine in a lot of ways. That being said, Swords Dance can be used on more paralysis spreading teams as Lickitung could be an intruiging win condition for certain teams.
Personal Viability Rankings
I'm not going to delve too much into my thoughts here. All three of Charmeleon, Ivysaur, and Wartortle are droppable, but I believe they're significant enough to warrant their S-tier inclusion. Arbok is a catch-all Pokemon capable of spreading paralysis to great success. Marowak is a bulky threat that threatens several Pokemon outside of the "big three." Farfetch'd is a big riser, given its access to STAB Slash and solidified bulk that makes it an easy switch-in to Ivysaur after Sleep Powder has been used. Horsea and Farfetch'd make for strong win conditions with access to Agility and strong offenses to clean through weakened teams. Pikachu and Ponyta are fast mons that suit certain teams, with Pikachu able to spread paralysis and Ponyta being one of the few Pokemon to deter Ivysaur from clicking Fire Blast. Lickitung is a generally good trading Pokemon with a plethora of moves that could catch certain Pokemon by surprise. Meowth, Golbat, and Voltorb are also solid fastmons with numerous positives and drawbacks. Voltorb in particular is an excellent trading and paralysis-spreading tool for both inside and outside the lead slots. Goldeen is a second Horsea with a better matchup spread in the lead slot. Hitmonlee is an adequate mid/late-game cleaner with access to Meditite for setup if needed. Diglett is a solid revenge killer that can cheese its way through certain matchups. Clefairy is another solid paralysis spreader but faces difficulty against faster Pokemon in the lead slot and has difficult switch-in opportunities in the back.
The other Pokemon listed below B2 should have explanations elsewhere that you're able to check out from Gastlies, Missangelic, Acluh, or through the Discord server.
Personal Lead Metagame Rankings
This topic will be slightly more in depth as I felt there is a level of nuance towards picking the lead for your team.
S-Tier
- Charmeleon can fend off a wide variety of Pokemon due to its offensive capabilities and diverse move set, and it is also one of the few leads that can threaten Grass-type leads like Ivysaur and Weepinbell. Charmeleon also features other options such as Counter, Seismic Toss, and Slash for Golbat and Ponyta leads. Substitute can also be used in the Charmeleon mirror matchup to predict Counter. Charmeleon faces a dicey matchup against Arbok given it is vulnerable to being 2HKOed by Earthquake as well as speed tying it. Pikachu can use Thunder Wave to potentially flip the matchup against Charmeleon. Voltorb has to worry about Fire Blast and its 30% chance to burn, deeming its Explosion useless. Water-type leads like Goldeen, while not as common, can take advantage of Charmeleon to a decent effect.
- Arbok is a strong option to thwart off Charmeleon as well as paralyzing Pokemon such as Charmeleon, Pikachu, and Golbat. Its limitless coverage can be tooled in its favor against a blanket amount of Pokemon (Earthquake for Electric-types, Rock Slide for Flying-types, and Hyper Beam for strong neutral damage and cleaning off weakened foes). It is somewhat dead weight into Ivysaur outside of paralysis, but it can trade or beat a blanket spread of matchups.
- Granting early sleep off to Ivysaur helps to bring fast momentum towards the team, making it a helpful tool for most teams in the event your team requires Charmeleon to be at the back. Ivysaur can live a hit from every single Pokemon aside from Critical Hits and grant that opportunity to click Sleep Powder. Fire-types like Charmeleon and Ponyta make the life of lead Ivysaur difficult given they can penetrate it with Fire Blast. Ivysaur can become a sitting duck for Pokemon such as Farfetch'd and Golbat after Sleep Powder is clicked, potentially making the user sit on the back foot if they're unable to respond to it. Regardless, the opportunity of early-game sleep is undeniable, hence why it sits alongside Arbok and Charmeleon as one of the best leads in the tier.
A-Tier
- Goldeen is the primary Water-type lead of SU. Water-type leads are valuable due to the abundance of Charmeleon and Ponyta leads that are used to threaten Ivysaur. Goldeen holds the most signifciance out of the Water-types leads given its slightly faster speed allows it to reliably clicki Blizzard against Ivysaur in a pinch. It is also capable of stomaching hits, and an early-game Agility sweeper has value for forcing progress against numerous Pokemon. Struggles with back Wartortle but should chip it down enough, plus its access to Blizzard grants it freeze opportunities to swing the matchup in its favor.
- Pikachu has access to paralysis and strong coverage moves to make it a difficult mon to switch into. Seismic Toss is helpful for Ivysaur and Marowak, chipping them down despite being bad matchups. Thunder Wave can turn the tides on Pokemon such as Arbok and Charmeleon into more favorable matchups. Surf can be used as a deterrent for Geodude and Rhyhorn, which it struggles against without it. Pikachu struggles against lead Diglett and Ivysaur, given Diglett can outspeed Pikachu and threaten to OHKO it with Earthquake, while Ivysaur can gain free momentum with Sleep Powder. With spreading paralysis, you would need to be cautious around using Ivysaur, as it invites the paralysed Pokemon in for free, forcing Ivysaur out if the paralysed Pokemon is something like Charmeleon or Arbok.
- Voltorb shares similar qualities with Pikachu in that it trades Seismic Toss and Surf with Explosion and Screech, providing it with strong trading opportunities against several Pokemon. It has slightly better bulk compared to Pikachu, allowing it to stomach hits in a pinch, such as avoiding the OHKO on Earthquake from Arbok (compared to a 40% roll against Pikachu) and avoiding the 2HKO with Double-Edge into Hyper Beam from Golbat. Its higher speed allows it to trade with Diglett, as Voltorb can click Explosion. It struggles heavily against the back Geodude, Marowak, and Rhyhorn, being almost unable to deal damage against them outside of Explosion. Other Pokemon like Ivysaur and Pikachu force Voltorb to click Explosion early on to provide any value for Voltorb.
B-Tier
- Clefairy helps as a good progress maker with paralysis and it has a lot of moveslot flexibility such as Blizzard, Psychic, Seismic Toss, Counter, and Thunderbolt to name some examples. It is unfortunately sitting duck towards teams running Ivysaur in the lead slot given its speed, but it is bulky enough that it can stomach a hit (not accounting for critical hits) outside of Explosion from Geodude (which is a 69.2% chance to OHKO).
- Diglett is a fast lead which is capable of penetrating Charmeleon and Arbok leads as well as thwarting off Electric-type leads. Sand Attack can be used to help Diglett avoid hits in a pinch, giving it some leeway in the event it bumps into Ivysaur lead. Substitute can be paired with Sand Attack to fish for misses from Pokemon like Goldeen and Horsea. Diglett heavily struggles against Farfetch'd teams, given that it is vulnerable to being OHKOed by Slash. Farfetch'd is also capable of switching into Earthquake for free and it takes minimum damage from Rock Slide.
- Golbat has faster speeds compared to Arbok and can be used to stomach a blanket amount of hits from Pokemon like Arbok and Diglett in the lead slot. Screech causes the likes of Charmeleon and Ponyta to feel uncomfortable against it. Its bulk allows it to be an effective sleep sack against Ivysaur in the event it runs into it. It speed ties Pikachu, meaning it can win the matchup against it thanks to Double-Edge/Screech and Hyper Beam, while Pikachu doesn't always guarantee the 2HKO, making it an uncomfortable matchup despite the type weakness. Golbat is mostly deadweight into Voltorb lead, but it could be paired alongside Marowak in the back to ensure Voltorb doesn't gain value in the early game.
- Ponyta offers itself as an alternative to Charmeleon in the lead slot thanks to its faster speed being a helpful tool against Arbok and Golbat leads, allowing Ponyta to act first and get a potential burn off its opponents. Ponyta can also use Agility to reverse the speed drop from paralysis against Pokemon such as Pikachu and Voltorb. One of the benefits to Ponyta in the lead slot is it can allow Charmeleon to be kept safely in the back on double Fire teams. While it doesn't outright win the matchup, it makes lead Charmeleon uncomfortable with its chance to fish for Body Slam paralysis. Ponyta is an even larger sitting duck compared to Charmeleon against Water-type leads given the absence of Slash or Seismic Toss in its movepool.
C-Tier
- Horsea shares similar properties with Goldeen being able to threaten out Charmeleon and Ponyta. It can differentiate itself from Goldeen because Blizzard has more favourable rolls into Ivysaur and Golbat. Horsea struggles in the lead slot however as speed tying Ivysaur makes it worse off compared to Goldeen. Horsea is also more suitable as a win condition at the back.
- Shellder has been a Pokemon I've been theorising for a while. It has a lot of unique traits as a lead that offers an alternative Explosion bot with other qualities that seperate it with Voltorb. Fire-types like Charmeleon and Ponyta as well as other leads such as Arbok and Clefairy offer viable entry points for Shellder to trade with each Pokemon and provide useful momentum for the team. Shellder struggles heavily with Ivysaur on the other hand, putting the team on the backfoot and making it difficult for the Shellder user to overcome, but its traits I think provide enough for it to warrant as a C-Tier lead option. For more information, check my "Explosion" section.
- Wartortle is a generally all-round good Pokemon that could serve as a lead in the right circumstances to thwart off non-Ivysaur or Electric-type leads, but it is much better utilized outside the lead slot.
D-Tier
- Beedrill helps to apply immediate pressure to leads that aren't Fire-type with Swords Dance and it is equally capable of breaking down Ivysaur with Twinneedle. Agility can be used to navigate around paralysis from users like Arbok and Clefairy. Beedrill as a Pokemon is relatively flawed given its frailty and typing, and giving Pokemon like Charmeleon and Ponyta strong momentum can cause Beedrill to struggle as a lead.
- Dratini is a solid paralysis spreader that resists Charmeleon and Ponyta's STAB option. It also has various coverage moves like Blizzard, Thunderbolt, and Surf to target certain matchups. Dratini can also use Agility to nullify speed drops from paralysis often used by Pikachu and Voltorb. Dratini suffers from similar issues to Clefairy given that it is slower than Ivysaur, putting you at a significant disadvantage if you run into it. Dratini is also vulnerable to Blizzard from Goldeen and Horsea, and it struggles to do meaningful damage to Arbok and Clefairy.
- Geodude functions similar to Shellder as an Explosion lead, where it can be a trading tool against Arbok, Charmeleon, and Ponyta leads. Geodude has similar issues to Shellder in that it hates Ivysaur lead, and it struggles to other leads like Goldeen, Diglett, and Golbat which Shellder shares a better matchup with. Its better offenses in comparison to Shellder doesn't make it for it being a struggle to find the right lead for it.
- Machoke is a very funny Pokemon, being capable of trading with Charmeleon, thwarting off Arbok and the B ranks, and being an acceptable Pokemon with its coverage. However, its speed, the abundance of Ivysaur, and possible luck makes it a bit of a hassle to run in the lead slot, and Marowak is generally preferred outside of the lead slot.
Charmeleon Fire Blast vs. Machoke: 150-177 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Machoke Earthquake vs. Charmeleon: 202-238 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Weepinbell is a mostly outclassed version of Ivysaur, losing out on the speed against Horsea and Wartortle in exchange for Stun Spore. However, I don't believe the trade off is worth it in almost any situations. Running two Grass-types is often a bad team choice as well.
Final Notes
My apologies for such a long delay in my post, the RBY Fight Club tour rolled around shortly after RBYOMPL had finished and I wanted to give some time to finish it then, and after that I somewhat procrastinated on the post given its sheer size and amount of quality checking I would need to do for myself. Regardless, I hope you have enjoyed this post, and I may look to be posting a second time shortly after this compiling my teams in a more detailed and articulated fashion. Thank you for missangelic for the valuable effort you have been providing towards SU throughout the past several years, thank you again for Volk for making RBYOMPL a real thing, and thank you to everyone who has supported me since the beginning. I appreciate every single one of you, and I'd look forward to seeing how the developments of RBY SU take shape in the future! Until then, I'll see you on the next post!
Here is the new RBY SU VR, thank you to those who contributed. It's great to see that support for SU has surged in the last year, particularly from the RBY community, which is much appreciated. Due to the speculative and doubly unofficial nature of SU, this is no formal cutoff on this VR.
Here's a link to the spreadsheet of how everyone who submitted voted.
For those who are interested in what's new for this VR, here's a list of changes:
Removals 2 to ZU 22 to UR
Additions New! to 4 New! to 8 New! to 9 New! to 17 New! to 3
Remaining 1 to 1 (+0) 3 to 2 (+1) 20 to 5 (+15) 6 to 6 (+0) 4 to 7 (-3) 10 to 10 (+0) 9 to 11 (-2) 19 to 13 (+6) 12 to 14 (-2) 7 to 15 (-8) 5 to 16 (-11) 8 to 17 (-9) 11 to 18 (-7) 14 to 19 (-5) 18 to 20 (-2) 21 to 21 (+0) 23 to 22 (+1) 16 to 23 (-7) 13 to 24 (-9) 15 to 25 (-10) 24 to 26 (-2) 17 to 27 (-10)
The OP of the thread has been updated with the new VR, and we'll be refreshing our resources soon to better reflect this snapshot of the new metagame.
Has amnesia, but is steam rolled by razor leaf
2 to ZU