Gen 3 ADV OU - CB Tar balance team

Butterfree Qween

Butterfree Qween

I've been playing ADV OU for a while now. It's my favourite metagame, it feels quite balanced and generally has few things that are really annoying. This is the first team that I have built that I would say isn't completely dreadful. I peaked with it around the late 1400s ELO which was a bit of milestone for me. Since it's my first team, and first RMT post, I would appreciate any advice on how to make it less bad, thank you :)

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]

So this was the main reason I wanted to make a team since I couldn't find a sample team with CB Tar on it. I read the smogon page and the part with teammates said it works best on balanced/defensive teams so I kind of went from there lol. I love sand, it's my favourite thing about this meta and Tar as a mon is just really fun to use. I love breakers and people don't usually expect your Tar to have CB. It has good lead matchups with the only issues being Fighting types, physical Mence with brick break and dug. I also just like creating sand ASAP to punish suicune, lax, blissey and other blobs. I have won games even when he goes down early, but it's good to keep it around to deal with resting suicune or other late game shenanigans.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
- Earthquake

Forre feels like they fit on the balance nature of the team. I felt like I needed spikes for a bit more offensive pressure and rapid spin for the mostly grounded squad. It's also nice to have an emergency explosion in the back. I have EQ rather than HP bug in case I want to feel like a true gamer and predict the incoming mag, but generally I have just found it to be more useful. I have two CB users with bug coverage so it feels like I check celebi and claydol well enough.

Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Aerial Ace
- Rock Slide

ABR said it was good, so... Really, though, it feels like such a reliable revenge killer and provides just a bit more offense. Honestly, if I was going to cut one I might say dug as it covers a lot of the same bases as Tar, but its useful to deal with a low health blissey so idk.

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 8 SpA / 112 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Taunt
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch

Needed a spin blocker. Defensive feels necessary as an emergency DD mence/flygon check. I sort of miss Wisp but I felt a bit weak into pert as celebi can tend to get worn down with stray ice beams and such. Taunt feels like too good of a utility option and Tbolt and ice punch feel kind of necessary - ice for the aforementioned dragon checks and Tbolt for starmie and skarm and just finishing off low health mons. This is another aspect of the team I am not sure about.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Surf

Mandatory rock resist. Not much to say, just generally good at what it does. I prefer surf for the accuracy but I think its just personal preference as far as I can tell, they basically do the same thing. I also dabbled with roar which is otherwise missing and did come in useful at times, but I missed all the other options. If I don't have protect on pert I feel a bit vulnerable to getting warn down by aero, I like to check the lock in and switch accordingly.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Leech Seed
- Psychic
- Recover

Celebi feels useful to check zap and most other special threats. Starmie is a bit more annoying and so is offensive suicune, but having psychic feels really nice into gengar whereas bliss can feel a bit helpless if it's taunt/wisp/explode. Leech seed is also just a nice free click. Again, feel like I am a bit dubious about this one, especially the EV spread - I just took it from the defensive CM smogon set but swapped out CM for HP grass. Idk if there is a better spread for my purposes.

So yeah, I don't think this team is perfect at all, but I have enjoyed playing with it so far. Very happy for any and all suggestions :)
 
Nice post and creative team. There are some logical choices here that suit the concept rather well, and I think this should definitely be able to win against a healthy match-up spread in the tier.

Forretress seems like a natural partner to support a CB Tar, since it compresses Spikes and Spin into a slot, both of which CB Tar enjoys. Traditionally, people pair Forre with Suit Tar to help the Gengar match-up, and some use HP Ghost instead on occasion. It makes some sense to use HP Ghost with Gengar, as Forretress trades in some of its ability to handle Defensive Starmie and Claydol with recovery (Wish, Rest+Aroma support) when dropping HP Bug. HP Fire also makes sense, since you rely on Forre to help against (Toxic) Skarmory, and people have used Toxic+HP Fire, which helps in the Forre mirror. It makes a lot of sense next to Gengar and Dugtrio, who can make up for the shortcomings of a limited Forretress set. I would almost never advise, however, dropping Hidden Power on Forretress and running EQ, especially with Dugtrio to trap Magneton. Gengar and CB Tar allow Forre to be weaker against Rapid Spin users, but some super effective HP or Toxic would go a long way in blocking Spin, which might mean fewer responsibilities to other team mates. You might also consider other odd moves, like Protect or Counter, should you find the slot. Explosion is really good here for getting Dug in and threatening bulkier set up mons, but not strictly necessary. I think you should tinker with the set a bit.

Gengar offers nice support for Forretress whose longevity is often limited due to lacking Spikes immunity or recovery in the form of Protect (like Skarmory). Oftentimes, builders will pair Forre with Wish support -- or even Rest on Forre with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell support, especially when using a second Rapid Spin user to support Forretress. In this case, I might suggest considering a second Rapid Spin user instead of Gengar, since blocking Spin isn't as necessary with Spikes+CB users offering plenty of offense, and considering another avenue of support for Forretress. Also consider that it's not necessary to block Spin with Gengar. It's perfectly possible to position CB Tar in front of Rapid Spin users to punish attempts to Spin, for example, and most of your team successfully dissuades Claydol without Magneton support from spinning. Those teams do not like to play against two CBers, as you noted with your comment on Tar helping vs Cune, so there is suitable compensation in that case as well.

Starmie makes sense as a Gengar alternative, offering a second physical check to support Pert, as you wanted from Gengar, and a Swampert check, which is desirable next to Tyranitar, and it offers a fire resist. You can even run the old Thunderbolt(>Thunder Wave) set to help in the mirror match-up and to better pressure Skarmory and Suicune. I'm hesitant to suggest Starmie as the solution, however, since your team is very grounded and struggles to pressure Skarmory in critical slots. You might want to consider Claydol instead. ABR has popularized a set with Spin/Rest/Psychic/Explosion next to Dugtrio, which offers EQ. I suggest Refresh instead of Rest, since you might not find it easy to fit clerical support, and Refresh allows Dol to 1v1 Toxic Skarmory more consistently. Next to Swampert, you improve your match-up against rock spam, where Dugtrio becomes an additional layer of backbone with Claydol's explosion offering a means of getting Dug in. The second Spin user might also serve as the only Spin user, freeing up a moveslot on Forretress (for Protect, Toxic, HP, EQ, Counter, Rest, etc.) or allowing you to run Skarmory instead.

You were curious whether Celebi could have a better spread, and I think you might like to consider a Calm Celebi, should you want to keep it. Run your calcs and give it bulk for Dugtrio -- 244/36 I think should tank 252 30 IV HP Bug under Sand from full, and that should be enough for CB Tar to wreak havoc. If Dugtrio OHKOs or if Celebi fails to KO, your own can trap it, since you're almost certainly facing a slow, bulky Dug. The calculator is your friend. However, losing Celebi against Dugtrio offense ruins your special backbone. Celebi can even run Heal Bell to patch some of the problems listed above, but I think that Celebi hurts this team the most against Mix Mence and Moltres, who are major problems for any Forre team choosing to forego Blissey in the same slot. Blissey is almost necessary for slow Forre teams, since it patches up so many special weaknesses incurred by using Forre (with Tyranitar, who also doesn't switch very well into all special attackers), and it provides Wish and Aromatherapy support, which are indispensible. I favor a Bold spread with 44 SpA and as much as you'd like into HP to better tank Mence Brick Breaks, and I think it makes a lot of sense here for supporting the team against Mix Tar as well, but Dugtrio (and/or Starmie) should be able to provide some support there as well. You know well enough what Blissey does, and I think you should be able to find a set that suits your needs here. This is probably the most important big change you can make, and I think that it's almost necessary, but that depends on how you configure the rest of the team.

Dugtrio is also a good choice for offering back up special checking against groudned special attackers, including Raikou, Off Star, and CM pixies, where Celebi and CB Tar might be somewhat frailer in addressing those responsibilities. I think Dug fits quite nicely and allows for you to play the team more aggressively. In other versions of the team, you might like Aerodactyl, but I agree with Dugtrio on the roster as constructed and in most cases. Just something to think about.

I also see Swampert as slotting ideally, as you suggest, and I tend to think it's almost necessary on Forre(+Tar!) teams with specific exceptions. If you choose to go away from Celebi to fit Wish Blissey, you might find that Rest/Curse/EQ/IB Quagsire helps to alleviate Cro Cune and Off Pert problems with a little bit of SpD investment to avoid taking too much from Ice Beams, but that's not easier or more intuitive than Swampert. You will find it easier to slot Roar or Refresh on Pert with different teammates, too, like Defensive Starmie or Claydol, too, so keep Pert's set in mind as you tweak the team.

All-in all, it's a decent concept that you can take in many different directions, and it should be able to get results as is. I've tried to provide some tips to help with your consistency concerns, but these are just suggestions you can use for tinkering at will. It's up to you to find something that suits your style and technical ability, but don't just stop with modifying the team -- also look at how you play to see where you can optimize or find creative solutions.

The last thing I'll say is that you should be wary of the lead metagame. A fast CB Tar at lead is nice, but you might be wary of the recent scourge of lead Dugtrio. You might like to run more bulk or lead something else. I'm not sure what, but it's also perfectly valid to just call your opponent bad names and move on, since Dug lead isn't extremely common and likely will not become more so, but just something to keep in mind. In any case, good luck, and happy building! Hope I've given you some ideas to think about!
 
giraffefromholland said:
Nice post and creative team. There are some logical choices here that suit the concept rather well, and I think this should definitely be able to win against a healthy match-up spread in the tier.

Forretress seems like a natural partner to support a CB Tar, since it compresses Spikes and Spin into a slot, both of which CB Tar enjoys. Traditionally, people pair Forre with Suit Tar to help the Gengar match-up, and some use HP Ghost instead on occasion. It makes some sense to use HP Ghost with Gengar, as Forretress trades in some of its ability to handle Defensive Starmie and Claydol with recovery (Wish, Rest+Aroma support) when dropping HP Bug. HP Fire also makes sense, since you rely on Forre to help against (Toxic) Skarmory, and people have used Toxic+HP Fire, which helps in the Forre mirror. It makes a lot of sense next to Gengar and Dugtrio, who can make up for the shortcomings of a limited Forretress set. I would almost never advise, however, dropping Hidden Power on Forretress and running EQ, especially with Dugtrio to trap Magneton. Gengar and CB Tar allow Forre to be weaker against Rapid Spin users, but some super effective HP or Toxic would go a long way in blocking Spin, which might mean fewer responsibilities to other team mates. You might also consider other odd moves, like Protect or Counter, should you find the slot. Explosion is really good here for getting Dug in and threatening bulkier set up mons, but not strictly necessary. I think you should tinker with the set a bit.

Gengar offers nice support for Forretress whose longevity is often limited due to lacking Spikes immunity or recovery in the form of Protect (like Skarmory). Oftentimes, builders will pair Forre with Wish support -- or even Rest on Forre with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell support, especially when using a second Rapid Spin user to support Forretress. In this case, I might suggest considering a second Rapid Spin user instead of Gengar, since blocking Spin isn't as necessary with Spikes+CB users offering plenty of offense, and considering another avenue of support for Forretress. Also consider that it's not necessary to block Spin with Gengar. It's perfectly possible to position CB Tar in front of Rapid Spin users to punish attempts to Spin, for example, and most of your team successfully dissuades Claydol without Magneton support from spinning. Those teams do not like to play against two CBers, as you noted with your comment on Tar helping vs Cune, so there is suitable compensation in that case as well.

Starmie makes sense as a Gengar alternative, offering a second physical check to support Pert, as you wanted from Gengar, and a Swampert check, which is desirable next to Tyranitar, and it offers a fire resist. You can even run the old Thunderbolt(>Thunder Wave) set to help in the mirror match-up and to better pressure Skarmory and Suicune. I'm hesitant to suggest Starmie as the solution, however, since your team is very grounded and struggles to pressure Skarmory in critical slots. You might want to consider Claydol instead. ABR has popularized a set with Spin/Rest/Psychic/Explosion next to Dugtrio, which offers EQ. I suggest Refresh instead of Rest, since you might not find it easy to fit clerical support, and Refresh allows Dol to 1v1 Toxic Skarmory more consistently. Next to Swampert, you improve your match-up against rock spam, where Dugtrio becomes an additional layer of backbone with Claydol's explosion offering a means of getting Dug in. The second Spin user might also serve as the only Spin user, freeing up a moveslot on Forretress (for Protect, Toxic, HP, EQ, Counter, Rest, etc.) or allowing you to run Skarmory instead.

You were curious whether Celebi could have a better spread, and I think you might like to consider a Calm Celebi, should you want to keep it. Run your calcs and give it bulk for Dugtrio -- 244/36 I think should tank 252 30 IV HP Bug under Sand from full, and that should be enough for CB Tar to wreak havoc. If Dugtrio OHKOs or if Celebi fails to KO, your own can trap it, since you're almost certainly facing a slow, bulky Dug. The calculator is your friend. However, losing Celebi against Dugtrio offense ruins your special backbone. Celebi can even run Heal Bell to patch some of the problems listed above, but I think that Celebi hurts this team the most against Mix Mence and Moltres, who are major problems for any Forre team choosing to forego Blissey in the same slot. Blissey is almost necessary for slow Forre teams, since it patches up so many special weaknesses incurred by using Forre (with Tyranitar, who also doesn't switch very well into all special attackers), and it provides Wish and Aromatherapy support, which are indispensible. I favor a Bold spread with 44 SpA and as much as you'd like into HP to better tank Mence Brick Breaks, and I think it makes a lot of sense here for supporting the team against Mix Tar as well, but Dugtrio (and/or Starmie) should be able to provide some support there as well. You know well enough what Blissey does, and I think you should be able to find a set that suits your needs here. This is probably the most important big change you can make, and I think that it's almost necessary, but that depends on how you configure the rest of the team.

Dugtrio is also a good choice for offering back up special checking against groudned special attackers, including Raikou, Off Star, and CM pixies, where Celebi and CB Tar might be somewhat frailer in addressing those responsibilities. I think Dug fits quite nicely and allows for you to play the team more aggressively. In other versions of the team, you might like Aerodactyl, but I agree with Dugtrio on the roster as constructed and in most cases. Just something to think about.

I also see Swampert as slotting ideally, as you suggest, and I tend to think it's almost necessary on Forre(+Tar!) teams with specific exceptions. If you choose to go away from Celebi to fit Wish Blissey, you might find that Rest/Curse/EQ/IB Quagsire helps to alleviate Cro Cune and Off Pert problems with a little bit of SpD investment to avoid taking too much from Ice Beams, but that's not easier or more intuitive than Swampert. You will find it easier to slot Roar or Refresh on Pert with different teammates, too, like Defensive Starmie or Claydol, too, so keep Pert's set in mind as you tweak the team.

All-in all, it's a decent concept that you can take in many different directions, and it should be able to get results as is. I've tried to provide some tips to help with your consistency concerns, but these are just suggestions you can use for tinkering at will. It's up to you to find something that suits your style and technical ability, but don't just stop with modifying the team -- also look at how you play to see where you can optimize or find creative solutions.

The last thing I'll say is that you should be wary of the lead metagame. A fast CB Tar at lead is nice, but you might be wary of the recent scourge of lead Dugtrio. You might like to run more bulk or lead something else. I'm not sure what, but it's also perfectly valid to just call your opponent bad names and move on, since Dug lead isn't extremely common and likely will not become more so, but just something to keep in mind. In any case, good luck, and happy building! Hope I've given you some ideas to think about!
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Thanks very much for the thoughtful advice! I am gonna play around with some of your suggestions, you've given me a lot to think about. The factyou suggested Quag brought me so much joy as its another one of my absolute favourite mons :)
 
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