not the hisiun decidueye...
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Hey... remember me?
Im going through severe burnout with the game atm and am taking a break. Anyways i still have an unhealthy amount of playtime so should still be able to give a valid opinion about the meta.
I wanted this thing GONE. This was genuinely the first time I wholeheartedly participated in a suspect actually (I forgot the password on my suspect acc and gave up.. had like 2450 coil... literally got that all in one day LOL)
It's pivot sets make it annoying to deal with while sd sets make it impossible to deal with depending on the circumstances of the game, which most of the time aren't hard to get.
I will say I do hate facing rain so I like woger for that.
Anyways, it's a pain to deal with in the builder and on the battlefield.
Now off topic, I'm LOVING BANDED WEAVILE RN
great mon, insanely good revenge killer, fun to use, etc
Anyways ima be gone for like a month so baiiiii
Im going through severe burnout with the game atm and am taking a break. Anyways i still have an unhealthy amount of playtime so should still be able to give a valid opinion about the meta.
I wanted this thing GONE. This was genuinely the first time I wholeheartedly participated in a suspect actually (I forgot the password on my suspect acc and gave up.. had like 2450 coil... literally got that all in one day LOL)
It's pivot sets make it annoying to deal with while sd sets make it impossible to deal with depending on the circumstances of the game, which most of the time aren't hard to get.
I will say I do hate facing rain so I like woger for that.
Anyways, it's a pain to deal with in the builder and on the battlefield.
Now off topic, I'm LOVING BANDED WEAVILE RN
great mon, insanely good revenge killer, fun to use, etc
Anyways ima be gone for like a month so baiiiii
Good day to the National Dex OU council and fellow Pokémon enthusiasts.
A few weeks ago, I made a post arguing that Lokix deserves a spot on the National Dex OU Viability Rankings. At the time of posting said thread, I had a few people telling me that Lokix could never be viable in a metagame as strong and fast-paced as this one. Here are my arguments why Lokix could merit itself a spot on the NDOU VR.
(If you're just here for teams and replays, scroll to the bottom. What follows is my explanation for why Lokix should be added to the VR.)
In SV OU, Lokix holds a solid B+ ranking, sitting alongside staples like Walking Wake and Hatterene. This is thanks to its access to Tera Bug, Choice Band, and First Impression, which combine for devastating power. With Tera Bug, Lokix hits 454 Attack with a Jolly nature, or 499 with Adamant, and with +2 priority, it’s one of the best revenge killers in the format, doubling as a functional wallbreaker.
But National Dex OU is a different beast. Without access to Terastallization and facing a significantly higher overall power level, Lokix is currently RU and unranked on the VR. On paper, this seems fair with common threats like Landorus-Therian, who punishes contact moves with Rocky Helmet and weakens attackers via Intimidate, and walls like Alomomola, whose Regenerator and immense bulk are notorious, Lokix should struggle. And yet Lokix works.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lokix’s niche lies in three defining traits. First Impression + Choice Band being the crux of its identity. With +2 priority and Choice Band, First Impression can delete most offensive threats outright. Unlike priority users like Scizor or Dragonite, Lokix's coverage isn't limited by typing thanks to its amazing ability, Tinted Lens. With Tinted Lens, even Pokémon that would normally resist Bug like Garchomp, Zapdos, or Tornadus-T end up taking neutral damage. This turns bad matchups into manageable or even favorable ones. First Impression becomes a universal revenge tool, not just for Psychic, Dark, or Grass-types. Finally, it provides great momentum with U-turn. Lokix isn’t a one-and-done mon. With its 311 Speed (Jolly) and access to U-turn, it doesn't just force trades — it supports your offense. Even U-turn becomes threatening chip against would-be checks like Garchomp or Zapdos, since Tinted Lens removes their resistances. Pivoting out on targets like Ferrothorn or Zamazenta applies meaningful chip while bringing in your actual breakers. And because First Impression is so threatening, opponents often play around it giving you free momentum even when you don't click it.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Like every niche pick, Lokix has flaws but they’re manageable with proper teambuilding. While 71/92/105 bulk isn't terrible, low HP and a poor defensive typing (Bug/Dark) mean Lokix can't tank hits. It’s weak to common types like Fairy, Fire, and Flying, and lacks recovery. The fix is simple, using slow pivot support. Partners like Slowking (Chilly Reception) or Corviknight (U-turn) let Lokix switch in safely. Treat it as a hit-and-run threat, not something that stays in and trades hits. Lokix takes 25% from Stealth Rock, limiting how often it can switch in. This makes hazard stack teams a major issue. Similar to teams using Mega Charizard and many other top tier threats, the key to its success is support with hazard control like Corviknight, Tornadus-T, or Great Tusk. A “quick fix” I’ve seen is people trying to use Lokix with Heavy Duty Boots, but from all my testing, it is far better to just stick to Choice Band, Boots Lokix is too weak to justify a team slot. Alternatively, run your own hazard stack: Lokix pairs well with Ferrothorn or Garchomp, helping it clean chipped teams later in the game. It also really struggles vs. Defensive Cores. Lokix can’t break through the Alomomola / Skarmory / Toxapex types on its own. It also gets punished hard by Rocky Helmet and contact effects. But Lokix isn’t your breaker, it’s a pressure piece. Using it to soften up targets, force switches, and then pivot into breakers like Iron Valiant, Kingambit, or Heatran to do the real damage. Or pair with status spreaders like Gliscor or Toxapex to wear teams down over time. Being locked into First Impression or U-turn can be exploitable, especially if the opponent plays defensively or switches into a bad matchup. The fix is to not rely on First Impression every time. Lokix excels when you force switches and double switch into your real threats. And while First Impression is strong, U-turn is often the better click for momentum preservation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Here’s why Lokix Deserves a VR Slot. It’s easy to write Lokix off due to theoretical bad matchups or low usage. But the reality in practice is that it trades well into nearly every offensive mon in the format, it forces safe, passive play just by being on the field, it preserves tempo and creates pivot loops few other Choice Band users offer and finally it’s not useless against bulk, thanks to Tinted Lens and U-turn chip.
Lokix is not a game-dominating force, and it doesn’t pretend to be. But it fills a niche nothing else in the format really does a fast, priority-based revenge killer that threatens offense while keeping momentum.
I'm not suggesting Lokix belongs anywhere near A- or even B-. But in a VR that includes niche picks like Clodsire, Keldeo, or Iron Treads, I strongly believe Lokix deserves a C or C+ rank. It has a defined role. It’s reliable when played properly. And it brings value into both offensive and defensive matchups. That’s more than can be said for some of the Pokémon currently occupying VR slots.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Teams, partners, and replays:
Before getting into this section, I’d like to thank MrWhiskers09, Whimmy and especially pikapac22 for helping me test and refine Lokix.
One of the first things we realized is how well Lokix complements setup sweepers like Dragon Dance Kyurem. Lokix's strong priority attacks and wallbreaking potential help soften up the opposing team, often removing or weakening the bulky pivots or revenge killers that could otherwise check a setup sweeper.
Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Scale Shot
- Icicle Spear
- Shadow Claw
Lokix excels at softening up walls with Tinted Lens U-turn and First Impression, making it much easier for setup sweepers like Kyurem to clean late-game. Lokix also forces opponents to stay more cautious than usual, giving your setup sweepers free turns against passive or chipped targets.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Of course, Lokix has some obvious limitations. It's extremely vulnerable to Stealth Rock, and its mediocre bulk means it's not switching in often. Because of that, Great Tusk was an instant inclusion:
Great Tusk @ Booster Energy
Ability: Photosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
- Headlong Rush
- Stealth Rocks
Great Tusk not only removes hazards with Rapid Spin but also provides strong offensive pressure. Booster Energy gives it a speed boost, allowing it to threaten out hazard setters and offensive threats alike. It also sets up Stealth Rock itself, forcing progress and wearing down Lokix answers like Toxapex or Landorus-Therian.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Later on in testing, we discovered how naturally Lokix fits on Rain teams. Lokix doesn’t directly benefit from Rain in the same way something like Barraskewda does, but it certainly appreciates the support. Fire-type moves, being one of Lokix's main weaknesses defensively, get weakened, and Rain's general offensive pressure helps Lokix find openings. Pelipper is the obvious enabler here.
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Defog
- Weather Ball
- Roost
- U-turn
Pelipper sets Rain, provides hazard removal, and offers a slow pivot via U-turn to bring in Lokix safely. The chip damage from U-turn also puts enemies in range of First Impression or Sucker Punch. It’s a small interaction, but you’ll start to notice how many KO ranges Lokix just barely reaches, because every bit of chip matters.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lokix functions on a wide variety of teams ranging from:
Hyper Offense; serving as a revenge killer and a U-turn bot, Lokix excels at preserving momentum and forcing favorable trades.
(These teams are just quickly thrown together as examples, if you were to use them, I’d recommend polishing them a bit before use)
https://pokepast.es/d802e0e61b381d19
Hazard Stack; Lokix itself struggles against hazards, but it itself can shine on that very same archetype. Being able to use Knock Off can help teammates such as Ferrothorn or defensive Garchomp wear down opponents far easier.
https://pokepast.es/e0c00aa1d33573ca
Rain Offense; Its synergy with Pelipper is undeniable. Lokix loves being able to have one less weakness to worry about, but also the team covering for its weaknesses.
https://pokepast.es/b73bd11e91f94ec4
Balance or Bulky Offense; Lokix doesn’t need to be on fully offensive teams to function. With support from its teammates, be it hazard removal, wallbreaking or slow pivoting, it works as a tactical revenge killer and a tempo shifter on more defensive teams.
https://pokepast.es/d1a7875ecc9a6e79
Ultimately, Lokix is not the kind of Pokémon you slap onto any team. It requires support, both defensively (hazard control, pivoting) and offensively (partners that take advantage of the chaos it creates). But if you build with intention, Lokix enables aggressive gameplay that can absolutely rip through teams not prepared to respect it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2417582154
Even though I didn’t win, Lokix did great (I just played bad and the team is terrible)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2417583677
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2417585324-jsk0s8r296st4fhowgy6k8yv0i86j67pw
I won’t go into detail about how Lokix benefits the team since at the time of writing this it is 3:37am.
Thank you for reading this and possibly taking it into consideration.
If you have any further questions, feel free to message me either here or on Discord
A few weeks ago, I made a post arguing that Lokix deserves a spot on the National Dex OU Viability Rankings. At the time of posting said thread, I had a few people telling me that Lokix could never be viable in a metagame as strong and fast-paced as this one. Here are my arguments why Lokix could merit itself a spot on the NDOU VR.
(If you're just here for teams and replays, scroll to the bottom. What follows is my explanation for why Lokix should be added to the VR.)
In SV OU, Lokix holds a solid B+ ranking, sitting alongside staples like Walking Wake and Hatterene. This is thanks to its access to Tera Bug, Choice Band, and First Impression, which combine for devastating power. With Tera Bug, Lokix hits 454 Attack with a Jolly nature, or 499 with Adamant, and with +2 priority, it’s one of the best revenge killers in the format, doubling as a functional wallbreaker.
But National Dex OU is a different beast. Without access to Terastallization and facing a significantly higher overall power level, Lokix is currently RU and unranked on the VR. On paper, this seems fair with common threats like Landorus-Therian, who punishes contact moves with Rocky Helmet and weakens attackers via Intimidate, and walls like Alomomola, whose Regenerator and immense bulk are notorious, Lokix should struggle. And yet Lokix works.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lokix’s niche lies in three defining traits. First Impression + Choice Band being the crux of its identity. With +2 priority and Choice Band, First Impression can delete most offensive threats outright. Unlike priority users like Scizor or Dragonite, Lokix's coverage isn't limited by typing thanks to its amazing ability, Tinted Lens. With Tinted Lens, even Pokémon that would normally resist Bug like Garchomp, Zapdos, or Tornadus-T end up taking neutral damage. This turns bad matchups into manageable or even favorable ones. First Impression becomes a universal revenge tool, not just for Psychic, Dark, or Grass-types. Finally, it provides great momentum with U-turn. Lokix isn’t a one-and-done mon. With its 311 Speed (Jolly) and access to U-turn, it doesn't just force trades — it supports your offense. Even U-turn becomes threatening chip against would-be checks like Garchomp or Zapdos, since Tinted Lens removes their resistances. Pivoting out on targets like Ferrothorn or Zamazenta applies meaningful chip while bringing in your actual breakers. And because First Impression is so threatening, opponents often play around it giving you free momentum even when you don't click it.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Like every niche pick, Lokix has flaws but they’re manageable with proper teambuilding. While 71/92/105 bulk isn't terrible, low HP and a poor defensive typing (Bug/Dark) mean Lokix can't tank hits. It’s weak to common types like Fairy, Fire, and Flying, and lacks recovery. The fix is simple, using slow pivot support. Partners like Slowking (Chilly Reception) or Corviknight (U-turn) let Lokix switch in safely. Treat it as a hit-and-run threat, not something that stays in and trades hits. Lokix takes 25% from Stealth Rock, limiting how often it can switch in. This makes hazard stack teams a major issue. Similar to teams using Mega Charizard and many other top tier threats, the key to its success is support with hazard control like Corviknight, Tornadus-T, or Great Tusk. A “quick fix” I’ve seen is people trying to use Lokix with Heavy Duty Boots, but from all my testing, it is far better to just stick to Choice Band, Boots Lokix is too weak to justify a team slot. Alternatively, run your own hazard stack: Lokix pairs well with Ferrothorn or Garchomp, helping it clean chipped teams later in the game. It also really struggles vs. Defensive Cores. Lokix can’t break through the Alomomola / Skarmory / Toxapex types on its own. It also gets punished hard by Rocky Helmet and contact effects. But Lokix isn’t your breaker, it’s a pressure piece. Using it to soften up targets, force switches, and then pivot into breakers like Iron Valiant, Kingambit, or Heatran to do the real damage. Or pair with status spreaders like Gliscor or Toxapex to wear teams down over time. Being locked into First Impression or U-turn can be exploitable, especially if the opponent plays defensively or switches into a bad matchup. The fix is to not rely on First Impression every time. Lokix excels when you force switches and double switch into your real threats. And while First Impression is strong, U-turn is often the better click for momentum preservation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Here’s why Lokix Deserves a VR Slot. It’s easy to write Lokix off due to theoretical bad matchups or low usage. But the reality in practice is that it trades well into nearly every offensive mon in the format, it forces safe, passive play just by being on the field, it preserves tempo and creates pivot loops few other Choice Band users offer and finally it’s not useless against bulk, thanks to Tinted Lens and U-turn chip.
Lokix is not a game-dominating force, and it doesn’t pretend to be. But it fills a niche nothing else in the format really does a fast, priority-based revenge killer that threatens offense while keeping momentum.
I'm not suggesting Lokix belongs anywhere near A- or even B-. But in a VR that includes niche picks like Clodsire, Keldeo, or Iron Treads, I strongly believe Lokix deserves a C or C+ rank. It has a defined role. It’s reliable when played properly. And it brings value into both offensive and defensive matchups. That’s more than can be said for some of the Pokémon currently occupying VR slots.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Teams, partners, and replays:
Before getting into this section, I’d like to thank MrWhiskers09, Whimmy and especially pikapac22 for helping me test and refine Lokix.
One of the first things we realized is how well Lokix complements setup sweepers like Dragon Dance Kyurem. Lokix's strong priority attacks and wallbreaking potential help soften up the opposing team, often removing or weakening the bulky pivots or revenge killers that could otherwise check a setup sweeper.
Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Scale Shot
- Icicle Spear
- Shadow Claw
Lokix excels at softening up walls with Tinted Lens U-turn and First Impression, making it much easier for setup sweepers like Kyurem to clean late-game. Lokix also forces opponents to stay more cautious than usual, giving your setup sweepers free turns against passive or chipped targets.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Of course, Lokix has some obvious limitations. It's extremely vulnerable to Stealth Rock, and its mediocre bulk means it's not switching in often. Because of that, Great Tusk was an instant inclusion:
Great Tusk @ Booster Energy
Ability: Photosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
- Headlong Rush
- Stealth Rocks
Great Tusk not only removes hazards with Rapid Spin but also provides strong offensive pressure. Booster Energy gives it a speed boost, allowing it to threaten out hazard setters and offensive threats alike. It also sets up Stealth Rock itself, forcing progress and wearing down Lokix answers like Toxapex or Landorus-Therian.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Later on in testing, we discovered how naturally Lokix fits on Rain teams. Lokix doesn’t directly benefit from Rain in the same way something like Barraskewda does, but it certainly appreciates the support. Fire-type moves, being one of Lokix's main weaknesses defensively, get weakened, and Rain's general offensive pressure helps Lokix find openings. Pelipper is the obvious enabler here.
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Defog
- Weather Ball
- Roost
- U-turn
Pelipper sets Rain, provides hazard removal, and offers a slow pivot via U-turn to bring in Lokix safely. The chip damage from U-turn also puts enemies in range of First Impression or Sucker Punch. It’s a small interaction, but you’ll start to notice how many KO ranges Lokix just barely reaches, because every bit of chip matters.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lokix functions on a wide variety of teams ranging from:
Hyper Offense; serving as a revenge killer and a U-turn bot, Lokix excels at preserving momentum and forcing favorable trades.
(These teams are just quickly thrown together as examples, if you were to use them, I’d recommend polishing them a bit before use)
https://pokepast.es/d802e0e61b381d19
Hazard Stack; Lokix itself struggles against hazards, but it itself can shine on that very same archetype. Being able to use Knock Off can help teammates such as Ferrothorn or defensive Garchomp wear down opponents far easier.
https://pokepast.es/e0c00aa1d33573ca
Rain Offense; Its synergy with Pelipper is undeniable. Lokix loves being able to have one less weakness to worry about, but also the team covering for its weaknesses.
https://pokepast.es/b73bd11e91f94ec4
Balance or Bulky Offense; Lokix doesn’t need to be on fully offensive teams to function. With support from its teammates, be it hazard removal, wallbreaking or slow pivoting, it works as a tactical revenge killer and a tempo shifter on more defensive teams.
https://pokepast.es/d1a7875ecc9a6e79
Ultimately, Lokix is not the kind of Pokémon you slap onto any team. It requires support, both defensively (hazard control, pivoting) and offensively (partners that take advantage of the chaos it creates). But if you build with intention, Lokix enables aggressive gameplay that can absolutely rip through teams not prepared to respect it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2417582154
Even though I didn’t win, Lokix did great (I just played bad and the team is terrible)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2417583677
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2417585324-jsk0s8r296st4fhowgy6k8yv0i86j67pw
I won’t go into detail about how Lokix benefits the team since at the time of writing this it is 3:37am.
Thank you for reading this and possibly taking it into consideration.
If you have any further questions, feel free to message me either here or on Discord
I’m surprised it wasn’t already on the vr ( I didn’t check it until now LOL)
Iirc it OHKOs pult with minimum chip needed when that guy was still in the tier (it did like 98% health with banded First Impression if I’m correct.)
Lokix without tera bug isn’t bad but certainly isn’t that great either. It struggles a lot more against bulkier teams tho as you mentioned u turn chip is still valuable.
One more thing is that lokix forces a good chunk of the team to be built around it (which Tbf you did mention), which for obvious reasons isn’t ideal. Like at minimum 2 other members of the team will be dedicated to it (those being a hazard remover and then a slow bulky pivot) which is already half a team (lokix itself, and the other 2 mons).
Tbf mons like tusk and corv (as hazard removers) alongside glowking and mola (slow bulky pivots) are great mons in their own right and aren’t that bad. It’s not like the team would suffer with them if lokix weren’t to be there. But still, that’s just 50% of the team already decided at minimum, a dedicated hazard setter can bump that up to 66%.
Going back to the topic of MUs against bulkier structures, most bulky teams do carry hazards while obviously having ways around common removers, MLati is practically the nightmare of most removers as it has something to threaten most of the popular ones in the tier rn (luster for tusk, mystical fire for corv, aura sphere for treads, etc). It’s true that a synergy is made as lokix threatens MLati but like…. Something called switching exists. It is possible to take down possible switch-in’s prior or at least greatly weaken them but it won’t be the easiest task. Alongside that lokix ,if chipped enough, could take significant enough hazard damage that it’s practically out of the game for the time being of when hazards are in play which takes u turn out of the picture.
While writing this para a thought did enter my head of double switching to your ideal remover as MLati switches out and then remove. Tho it will require you to read the situation ahead of time.
Lokix’s also kinda a one trick pony too, it can be difficult to pilot and most of the time can only see major success when used by a good player. Using lokix is a test of the user’s positioning skills which imo is actually quite healthy.
In C+, no Mon is as hard to pilot as lokix is, with maybe the possible exceptions of volcanion, primarina and manaphy. Less likely but maybe even Luna.
While in C tier itself rlly only magnezone and maybe tinka can rival lokix on how hard to use they are.
Very few mons if any in C and C+ require the same amount of maintenance lokix does hence imo C- is a possible ranking tho
I believe a high C- or a low C ranking is most likely.
Don’t confuse me as trying to hate on lokix, it’s a great mon and at times incredibly fun to use, I just personally disagree with C or C+ as a rating and wanted to elaborate, alongside that I wanted to throw a bit more light upon it’s flaws. It’s not really a high risk high reward mon, more like high skill high reward if that makes sense.
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As a fellow lokix enjoyer, I will be honest and say there is nothing for this mon in natdex. Without tera bug (especially for a jolly set) it struggles to ko offensive threats, even with how broken tinted lens is and how good its moves are for abusing it. With tera bug you used to be able to ohko stuff like tapu koko, now the damage is kinda meh and it means lokix has far less threat and far fewer opportunities to come in and click the moves it wants to click (uturn and knock). If the lokix doesnt threaten my offensive mon with a priority ohko, then theres no reason for me to switch and get knocked/uturned. The mon has far too few opportunities to come in and not power to be a threat once it does. The priority is still strong when compared to other options, but nowhere near what it used to be. Lokix at this point doesnt have the raw power to justify using it over stuff like kingambit or quick attack mlop, which bring so much more to the table aside from their priority
Are there any other good Ogerpon Wellspring counters that haven't been mentioned previously? I find it extremely difficult to build a team with both answers to Mega Zard Y and Ogerpon. The closest answer I have found has been Gholdengo, but it remains unconsistent, as Gholdengo is needed to fill other roles and cannot be kept at full health throughout the game even with support from Wish Passing Alomolala.
chesnaught a good counter for both (has bulletproof so bypasses weather ball and checks non-play rough Ogerpon-w)
Anyways, how does everyone feel about Gliscor right now? I was somewhat surprised when I saw it score pretty high on the recent survey. I never thought it was too much of a problem without Tera as it is constantly threatened by its weakness to Ice and Water. I think that Gliscor is pretty annoying and incredibly durable, but definitely not banworthy as it can be reasonably exploited by a well built team. If we get a suspect on Gliscor then I would vote DNB without a doubt.
hello national dex i am going to give my thoughts on the different pokemon in the meta and how unhealthy they are on a scale of 1-5 1 being the lowest 5 being the highest in terms of being unhealthy.
kingambit: 1
i think this mon kinda fell off, dont see it too much. Not worth running over other pursuiters like ttar or weavile, and zamazenta is hella common.
zamazenta: 3
this pokemon has many checks some of them being a little inconsistent depending on the check but i dont think this mon is too overbearing and its kinda easy to play around most of the time.
volcarona: 5
i think this mon deserves a suspect test as soon as possible, the diversity in the sets are way too overbearing to be prepping for in the builder due to all of its checks being inconsistent. ex: you would think pex would beat it but then it pulls out psychic over sub, you would think heatran would beat it then (even though most of the time it u get 1v1d by volc qd bug z) and it pulls out hp ground. The best set on this pokemon is bug z which also nukes most things in the tier and makes building a struggle.
gholdengo: 4
i dont really understand the narrative about gholdengo being healthy for the meta and it being the glue holding the meta together. This mon nps once and takes a mon almost every time, it forces gliscor/ting lu on every single team (ghold can run common sets that beat both of these) overall i think the lack of checks and the teambuilding strain alone are enough to give it a suspect test but then you throw in the whole blocking defog and forcing mons that wouldn't necessarily run defog to run defog, while making once viable defoggers like corviknight unusable. mon is cool and all but we susd oger for the builder strain give ghold the same treatment.
gliscor: 4
i think this mon stacks hazards way too easily, can launch off toxics like its nothing and is a threat with sd. it has such a good mu into every single playstyle and always finds a way to keep the upper hand i dont think its balanced at all and i would probably like to see some tiering action on this though it isnt as bad as volcarona in my eyes.
ogerpon: 2 i dont really see all the hype around this mon, its withered down very easily through hazards. i think the so called "teambuilding strain" this mon puts on the meta is grossly over exaggerated, this mon has many viable/common checks like latios, raging bolt, toxapex, tornadus, dragonite, ect.
alomomola: 4
i think this mons ability to uphold momentum is super unhealthy whether it be with wish flip turn or assault vest pivotting on literally everything in the game. i overall believe that this mon is deserving of a suspect test through it being able to warp the meta in a negative direction and its easy pivotting.
z-moves: 5
now this one is a little more contreversial given z moves history within national dex but its pretty obvious not even mentioning the many calcs like a z steel gholdengo one shotting pagos through shell or almost ohkoing ting lu. you can take one look at the banlist and see how many healthy mons are vaulted because of z moves. in my opinion the entire concept around setting up once and then using a z move and taking a mon is just inherently broken.
walking wake: ?
i think this mon should be suspect tested, i feel without tera its pretty easy to play around/scout with mons like waterpon, pex, ect.
mb for any grammar errors im typing this out at 1am half awake
kingambit: 1
i think this mon kinda fell off, dont see it too much. Not worth running over other pursuiters like ttar or weavile, and zamazenta is hella common.
zamazenta: 3
this pokemon has many checks some of them being a little inconsistent depending on the check but i dont think this mon is too overbearing and its kinda easy to play around most of the time.
volcarona: 5
i think this mon deserves a suspect test as soon as possible, the diversity in the sets are way too overbearing to be prepping for in the builder due to all of its checks being inconsistent. ex: you would think pex would beat it but then it pulls out psychic over sub, you would think heatran would beat it then (even though most of the time it u get 1v1d by volc qd bug z) and it pulls out hp ground. The best set on this pokemon is bug z which also nukes most things in the tier and makes building a struggle.
gholdengo: 4
i dont really understand the narrative about gholdengo being healthy for the meta and it being the glue holding the meta together. This mon nps once and takes a mon almost every time, it forces gliscor/ting lu on every single team (ghold can run common sets that beat both of these) overall i think the lack of checks and the teambuilding strain alone are enough to give it a suspect test but then you throw in the whole blocking defog and forcing mons that wouldn't necessarily run defog to run defog, while making once viable defoggers like corviknight unusable. mon is cool and all but we susd oger for the builder strain give ghold the same treatment.
gliscor: 4
i think this mon stacks hazards way too easily, can launch off toxics like its nothing and is a threat with sd. it has such a good mu into every single playstyle and always finds a way to keep the upper hand i dont think its balanced at all and i would probably like to see some tiering action on this though it isnt as bad as volcarona in my eyes.
ogerpon: 2 i dont really see all the hype around this mon, its withered down very easily through hazards. i think the so called "teambuilding strain" this mon puts on the meta is grossly over exaggerated, this mon has many viable/common checks like latios, raging bolt, toxapex, tornadus, dragonite, ect.
alomomola: 4
i think this mons ability to uphold momentum is super unhealthy whether it be with wish flip turn or assault vest pivotting on literally everything in the game. i overall believe that this mon is deserving of a suspect test through it being able to warp the meta in a negative direction and its easy pivotting.
z-moves: 5
now this one is a little more contreversial given z moves history within national dex but its pretty obvious not even mentioning the many calcs like a z steel gholdengo one shotting pagos through shell or almost ohkoing ting lu. you can take one look at the banlist and see how many healthy mons are vaulted because of z moves. in my opinion the entire concept around setting up once and then using a z move and taking a mon is just inherently broken.
walking wake: ?
i think this mon should be suspect tested, i feel without tera its pretty easy to play around/scout with mons like waterpon, pex, ect.
mb for any grammar errors im typing this out at 1am half awake
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gholdengo: 4
i dont really understand the narrative about gholdengo being healthy for the meta and it being the glue holding the meta together. This mon nps once and takes a mon almost every time, it forces gliscor/ting lu on every single team (ghold can run common sets that beat both of these) overall i think the lack of checks and the teambuilding strain alone are enough to give it a suspect test but then you throw in the whole blocking defog and forcing mons that wouldn't necessarily run defog to run defog, while making once viable defoggers like corviknight unusable. mon is cool and all but we susd oger for the builder strain give ghold the same treatment.
Gholdengo can NP and take a Mon, but it usually also gets like one and a half kills on average and for a game between two players of similar skill, that’s usually the limit unless it’s an especially bad match up. It doesn’t really force any kind of especially harsh team building limitations and has pretty accessible counterplay, it hardly is just Gliscor or Ting Lu. Landorus-T, Garchomp, Moltres, Samurott-H, Hell even Heat Wave Zapdos threatens it. It may get a kill but it also tends to get worn down because it’s also tasked with handling an insane amount of stuff, making it reasonable to just cut your losses and revenge kill it since the low speed makes it harder to get back in later and heal if it’s taken too much damage.
As for Defog, nothing currently good in the meta is being forced to run it because they already did run it anyways, and are good defiggers because they can get past Gholdengo. Gliscor, LandoT, Moltres, Heat Wave TornT, there’s fair amount and stuff like Cinderace can work on some teams to bypass Gholdengo as well. Corv was never that good this gen even after we first banned Ghold during the Tera meta, and even if it was losing one defogger is hardly the end of the world when unlike SV, we have plenty of viable options. Not to mention Terapagos has a pretty easy time getting past it and spinning. Ghold doesn’t really force restrictions in the way something like Wellspring does. And that’s a Mon I could go on a rant about again how the stuff you listed only a couple count as reliable checks but that ship sailed and we’re just moving on.
z-moves: 5
now this one is a little more contreversial given z moves history within national dex but its pretty obvious not even mentioning the many calcs like a z steel gholdengo one shotting pagos through shell or almost ohkoing ting lu. you can take one look at the banlist and see how many healthy mons are vaulted because of z moves. in my opinion the entire concept around setting up once and then using a z move and taking a mon is just inherently broken.
A handful of mons have been banned but those mons possessed the correct traits to be able to elevate the use of Z moves to become broken mons. There aren’t actually many in reality and Z moves aren’t a problem themselves. They’re telegraphed from team preview most of the time, only have a single shot to fire off correctly and aren’t always gonna go crazy.
This Mon has very limited counterplay especially offensively. Waterpon is not a scout because you make one wrong call and it gets blown up. And Wake has 3/4 moves to click that would blow up Wellspring. Pex is already tasked with handling ZardY and Y+Wake would easily overload it before too long, especially if Pex catches a Sands burn.
Again limited offensive counterplay, and equally limited defensive counterplay. What little does exist just gets flattened by Sub+Sunny sets, which sometimes ran Z. Pex and Mola would just be fodder for this set.
TLDR; this Mon was and will always be miserable in a meta where ZardY exists. There’s no reason to free it especially when it adds nothing to the tier other than a very warping breaker that further limits team building.
Anyways I want to shift gears,
and talk about Gliscor because as Ariados mentioned, it was something that scored fairly high among qualified players on the last survey. It’s been a rather contentious Pokémon for some time now, and I think with Wellspring to remain in the tier for the generation, shifting focus to this is a good idea. Given its contentious nature I’d also like to ask what counterplay/tactics people are using to deal with Gliscor and its common teams?
Personally I’ve started running Sub Volcanion as a method of handling it somewhat, since it does have some value into other parts of the meta, notably threatening Gholdengo, checking Iron Val lacking TBolt, Volcarona, and sub letting it take advantage of Toxapex, Mola and Ferrothorn.
Lots of hot takes here but I will only comment on the main points:
Pivoting is an essential part of modern pokemon and having a reliable defensive pivot which can do its job multiple times is critical for a healthy meta, as the stuff it enables is usually the sub optimal or niche teritorry, not the top tier. Mons like melmetal and mttar appreciate the pivoting and wishes a whole lot more than waterpon, volcarona, or gholdengo. Also niche mons like mbeedrill (haters gonna hate) or hoopa-u go from barely UU to actually workable in OU. And yet there is a lot of available counterplay to the point of which flip turning never feels free (especially with waterpon running around). Glowking has far better pivoting yet I dont hear half as many complaints about it. Mola is also not able to wishpass and keep a full team alive like it used to earlier in the generation.
Hstack is one of the most interesting styles to play with and against, rewarding good resource management and builder prep. Ghold’s set flexibility is a bit crazy but it generally doesnt feel cheesy and helps you fit the mon better by changing its role. Compare that with volcarona’s set variety, which fills the exact same role on pretty much all the sets, just deciding if it wants to cheese a heatran or a clodsire.
Why is it the ideal glue? Because it gives every team that runs it a flexible progress making tool, which can be hazard play, np blowing up a wall, or crippling ability with trick or twave.
Agreed on this one, subswarm Z move is the set that pushes this over the edge for me. You get a powerful nuke which can be set up very safely. It reliably activates swarm while also fighting against the main threat to a volcarona sweep, status. Safeguard volcarona has been a set in multiple generations so getting a similar status protection while enabling even more raw power is kinda crazy. Hazard removals like terapagos also help make sure its dreadful hazard weakness won’t come into play even though its not running boots.
Z moves are a problem which we will have to bear and I am seeing a revival of gen 7 style sets which I thought were long dead, like sd Z lando, kartana, and volcarona. These are hardly telegraphed from the builder and there are also the more off beat options like rockZ on zama or iceZ tusk. Oh and dont forget tapu lele, even if you realise it is z move you have like no clue what z move it runs. There are some obvious ones like z raging bolt, which sometimes make you stand there head down waiting for a very instant execution.
Not sure if this is the path we want to take for suspect testing. The mon is annoying, limited in true counterplay, and very flexible. However I would still like to see volcarona go before looking at gliscor. As for options against it, specs kyurem or kyurem in general is very strong. Beating gliscpex with a single move is brilliant. Specs may struggle into protect scouting + a strong steel type, but hitting a freeze dry / ice beam into even AV melmetal is progressing enough.
Edit: defensive hatterene with draining kiss and psychic noise beats this 1v1 while also denying hazards, probably one of the best ways to stop gliscor from pulling its usual bs.
Oh and for whoever was asking about waterpon + zardY checks in a single slot…. None, just a lot of ifs and maybes. Perhaps more people should have asked this question before voting dnb.
in terms of counterplay most of the time gliscor doesnt even beat it and has to go for a 50/50 to squeeze its way out of the 1v1
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 390-459 (110.7 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ghold also 2hkos ting lu with no investment after one np and z just blows up ting lu
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 274-324 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 434-512 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
the only ghold check i really like is spdef lando t because it can outspeed it and threaten it with a kill so ghold cant np and hit it but then again being forced to run spdef lando just for one pokemon id say can also showcase how unhealthy this pokemon is
garhchomp i dont think is bulky enough to say the same
252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 396-466 (110.9 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
even the bulky ghold puts it out of commission and makes it unable to switch in, not to mention ghold is ran on hstack and garchomp is a mon that typically you wont see boots on
0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 253-298 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as for moltres this is a max spdef moltres with a 0 investment ghold
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 352-415 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
also if samu can easily get hit with focus blast on switch in
and in terms of zapdos:
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 480-565 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 378-445 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
i think the mostly out of these chest they just hit ghold to get it down to 50 then get blown up by z move
also i do not agree at all with the notion of ghold is hard to heal up lol when 80 percent of the defensive pokemon in the meta game cannot threaten ghold with anything its easy to recover up on them, ferrothorn, toxapex, alomomola, clefable, gking, are some examples that are very popular that literally arent threatening ghold with anything at all, ghold easily heals up on most the utility/defensive pokemon in the metagame due to its ability, typing, and bulk.
I dont really think moltres is a good defogger, and typically doesnt run defog even in national dex. it was bound to a 3a roost set i never really saw defog in high level play.
also with corviknight you do not know what you're talking about, corv was probably the most reliable defogger pre gholdengo that also served as something that could beat waterpon, lele ,and dragonite, while simultaneously being able to pp stall lower pp moves with 8 pp, being able to tank cc+fsight from most mons, and being able to pp stall stealth rocks in long term games, while also being a staple on stall. Also if i'm not mistaken that summer seasonal in tera meta the winner (drasg) used corv every single set and won the tournament, it was super common in high level play the notion of it being bad in tera meta post ghold ban is just ignorant.
in my opinion when you start to ban so many mons for one thing, it looks to me like those mons werent the problem and in fact z moves were the problem your rebuttal just sidesteps the possibility that the mechanic itself could have inherently unbalanced qualities. They get one boost and then take a pokemon most of the time lol, most of the time when they dont its just through a guessing game, every single pokemon that uses z well in the meta takes it over the edge and makes it broken hence why most of them are banned.
i feel a z move ban would improve the meta through taking off the teambuilding strain to prep for multiple pokemon that can just setup and take a mon, while a z move ban would also unban many healthy pokemon that have been shown to flourish in many other metas, such as dragapult, darkrai, and walking wake. while also taking the current unhealthy pokemon in the meta game down a big notch making them healthy.
z was fine before because of defensive tera but without that the mechanic just goes over the limit.
i typed this wrong i meant to say u can scout water moves with bulky special pokemon then go into waterpon but also the 50/50 still lies there, the same thing goes for dragon moves into fairy types ect. even if we go under the presupposition that pex's teammates wouldnt be able to help with zard y, you're forced to make predicts to even go for that burn in the first place, pex and builds that have pex typically drag out games and make them longer with pex being seen on mostly bulky builds, zard does not like that especially when it takes 50 from rocks and playing bulkier builds rapid spinners like great tusk dont thrive having 0 recovery options and is often withered down.
i dont think non specs is anywhere near as strong enough to put holes in a team i think this would just be a worse sub z ground kyurem.
pivotting is fine but when something is able to pivot on everything apart from waterpon it gets out of hand, mola is able to uphold momentum to a crazy degree with wish aswell also being able to run knock, toxic. I think this mon is consensus unhealthy also gking is NOT better at pivotting than mola. u also probably see not as many complaints as mola because mola can run wish flip turn which gking cant mola can also run assault vest wall everything gking walls but to a higher extent and can threaten them with mirror coat while also being able to pivot with that assault vest.
bro this literally doesnt respond to anything i said at all
uhhh specs kyurem gets withered down by hazards and u cant hardswitch because u risk a toxic/knock/eq chip
thats the whole reason i think its broken like all the so called "checks" you cant just hardswitch into and have to use a slow pivot like mola to get you there while mola also doesnt like being knocked off especially into a team with gliscor and also doesnt like being toxicd.
As me and many other people have said before, most tiering suggestions regarding mola stem from skill issue. There is SO MUCH counterplay to a mola flip turn, not just waterpon. Waterpon just happens to be the most punishing example since a busted wallbreaker gets to come in for absolutely free and get healed. Melmetal, glowking, hatterene are all mons which underspeed mola and severely mess with its pivoting tactics. They are all common mons, are immune to toxic, and 2 of them even get access to psychic noise. Also, literally anything can take advantage of a mola due to how predictable it is. The set variety is low and very easy to scout (run a calc the first time you hit it and you can figure out if its av or wishfish). Once you know the set you know what you can get away with: if its av, enjoy absolutely free setup or just bully it with hazards. If its hdb, hit it hard and make sure you dont get hit by toxic. Predict the wish for a free switch into a mon like rbolt or tapu koko. Regarding glowking, I would always choose future sight + chilly over wish + flip in a vacuum, if we disregard the value of each typing and the physdef vs spdef. I still end up choosing glowking quite often, with everything considered.
Also, both mola sets hate taking a knock off or a toxic, which are very easy to throw on the mon that wants to come in on everything. Moreover, everyone and their dog (zama pun intended) is running substitute right now, which abuses mola for free with no thinking needed, as long as you get past the 1200 elo urge of running head straight into a toxic.
TLDR: dondozo-sized skill issue. Dont give free wishes and scout a tiny bit before clicking solar beam and getting smoked by mirror coat
Oh i almost forgot
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 274-324 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You are literally the lucky one if you hit 2 focus blasts in a row. This is anything but reliable
Also, both mola sets hate taking a knock off or a toxic, which are very easy to throw on the mon that wants to come in on everything. Moreover, everyone and their dog (zama pun intended) is running substitute right now, which abuses mola for free with no thinking needed, as long as you get past the 1200 elo urge of running head straight into a toxic.
TLDR: dondozo-sized skill issue. Dont give free wishes and scout a tiny bit before clicking solar beam and getting smoked by mirror coat
Oh i almost forgot
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 274-324 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You are literally the lucky one if you hit 2 focus blasts in a row. This is anything but reliable
I really like Calm Mind Psychium Z Tapu Lele. One CM and you can blow up Gliscor and its partners like Gholdengo, Toxapex, or Alomomola. Most people expect a Choiced Lele so they might do something like Protect to try to scout, just for you to set up, and even if they go for something like Toxic they still have to be ready to take an incoming Z Move.
Not only does Ghold need to hit two FBs for Lu (lol), the Z Fight is often predictable and it's fairly easy to draw the use of it and force them to waste the move on something resisted if not immune (like a partner ghost). As for most of the rest, Ghold trades with these at best but like I said is left weakened if it chooses to trade, and ends up being much easier to contain afterwards. Especially with the prominence of Spikes, it's easy enough to limit the damage it can do overall with good play. Others, Lando-T and Garchomp leave it functionally dead (and not sure why you used modest max spatk for garchomp) and they outspeed it, and Moltres clicks Mystical Fire before Ghold can move and survives just fine. In general your argument comes off as the Ghold player will always make every necessary play perfectly to always be in the lead with it, but this isn't realistic or how it happens.
Spikes also further limit its danger as it cuts into its longevity, and again, Gholdengo isn't just a big breaker but it's also a critical defensive piece of every team it's on and is relied on to handle a ton of threats. So it can't just stay in on these mons to click VS and claim KOs because it needs that health to check Tapu Lele, Kartana, Mega Medicham, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, MLatios, and these are all common partners to the grounds and other pokemon I listed that check and threaten Ghold. So more often than not while these mons I just listed are healthy, Ghold is pressured into switching out because it doesn't want to be too weak to check the bigger them later. This is a pretty finely balanced dynamic and I'd argue Ghold only really stuffs weak or lazy building that skimp out on their checks to it.
As a Defogger it's the weakest of the viable choices but it's still there. Also it's better used for defensive sets with spdef to check Volcarona, ZardY, Valiant and Gholdengo.
As for Corv, it sat at a B rank by the end of the Tera meta. It was very passive even without Ghold around, as it would just wind up as set up fodder vs the aggressive teams that were powerful before Tera's ban and couldn't do enough to check them. It had to run tera dragon/grass to beat Waterpon, as otherwise it was and is forced to roost every time it switches into Ivy Cudgel or else it can't handle +2 Cudgel next time. It was a Lele check but only to scarf sets, which could still outmuscle it with Tera potentially. And if Corv ever Tera'd to deal with something else on Lele's team, it couldn't check Lele. You're gonna have to cite those usage stats for supposed high level play because I don't recall such and it's been ages since the Tera meta. Defog as a whole ended up being super exploitable near the end of Tera's time, because so many teams could exploit the use of Defog on a turn for set up and pressure which was the worst thing to be allowing.
Corv was at best, unremarkable but usable by the end of the Tera era. Truly bad? No, but not much really changes with Ghold because it loses only one avenue of play (defog). You could always still use it for tanking and pivoting nowadays, since Defog users that beat Ghold exist just fine. And this last bit is my personal viewpoint, but Defog nowadays feels better even with Ghold around, than it did late Tera meta without Ghold.
How many boosting threats with Z exist that DON'T suddenly become overwhelming after they're set up? Taking one pokemon with Z after a boost is not at all inherently unbalanced or broken. And we have plenty of good Z move users that aren't broken or banned. Landorus-T, Garchomp, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Dragonite, Great Tusk, Heatran, Raging Bolt... like there are so, so many non broken Z users. Only a very select group end up broken. Z Moves don't place a strain on teambuilding, because these users don't force any specific counterplay that's restrictive to deal with. Z Moves weren't fine during Tera btw. They were actually pretty nasty back then because you could double or triple up on cracked threats between set up Z, Tera set up and even Megas and just overload most teams.
We have two viable splashable Fairies in the tier. But also, this sounds like using a specially bulky water resist plus fairy or water immune, which just sounds like the time people had to run overly specific cores to check Urshifu-S last gen. That was awful and so would this be. ZardY teams have both Tusk and Hatterene as anti rocks tools, the latter being very efficient at keeping rocks off from most setters and thus enabling ZardY to have greater longevity as a threat. So this isn't working either.
Sub+Sun ran sets to get a spatk boost from their self set sun and would just mow down defensive answers afterwards. You had to be there to see it, but it was miserable because it flattened almost anything that wasn't Mega Venu.
Mola thrives by reinforcing its own team's longevity and throwing out status, but is still very passive and there are many, many ways to abuse its reliance on status. And if AV, Mola's own longevity is significantly lower and it's much more vulnerably to hazards making it easy to wear down. Glowking is a much more active pivot than Mola because it packs real offensive behind it, from the power of Future Sight to its selection of coverage and possible other options. Ice Beam for Lando/Gliscor/Garchomp, Toxic for opposing walls it can't break itself, Flamethrower for Ferrothorn and Corviknight, TWave for fast threats attempting to switch in on it, etc.. They're both very good and I'd say they're roughly in the same space right now, especially since Pursuit isn't super common.
I think Z Lele in general is the way to go in the meta rn, since it exploits a lot of building habits people have when preparing for it and other threats. The amount of times I've slipped and let Ghold dip just below like 75% and get picked off by +1 Shattered Psyche, which also happens to open up other threats Ghold normally checks and thus Z Lele makes a great partner to those mons.