my fear is that Flapple may just be the only viable F user to use Flower Trick (with STAB bonus). Gyarados, Apmharos, and Haxorus learn it too, but only Ampharos likes it since it’s good ground coverage
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Metagame Alphabet Cup
- Thread starter Eli
- Start date
Maybe Flareon too…? Its defenses are alright….
I wouldn't call Azumarill completely helpless against Toxapex, first of all +6 Magical Torque is a roll to kill spdef pex from full which I often run on balance teams. I've also been completely bopped by +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 310-365 (102.3 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO before which is completely demoralizing but overall I agree that Azumarill has too much 4MSS and is too shut down by Dondozo and common defensive threats depending on the moves its running to be any good.
This is all really weird to me, I feel like the fact that Ninetales even has the chance to 2HKO phys def Toxapex with a resisted move just proves how powerful it is, but you're talking about it as if it's a downside. Ninetales doesn't really need to rely on its coverage when its so powerful. It's much easier for it to take out a phys def Toxapex without having to predict and losing a chunk of its HP to Volt Tackle, needing only minimal chip to make it a 2HKO, as opposed to Volcanion that needs to lock into exploitable moves (EQ or Volt Tackle).
Volcanion's main advantages over Ninetales are its better coverage that lets it pick on certain Fire resists if it predicts right, like Skeledirge and Tyranitar, and an ability to contribute defensively to a team with its greater physical bulk and Water immunity. It also has the ability to go mixed to threaten certain would-be checks, and has the very potent Victory Dance set which is a strong wincon. Volcanion is a much better mon than Ninetales overall in this format. It's one of the most important offensive threats to account for in teambuilding.
Ninetales has a V-create that's about 20% stronger than Volcanion's, which makes a difference in turning many 3HKOs into 2HKOs against defensive mons, and certain 2HKOs into OHKOs against offensive Fire resists like Typhlosion-Hisui. It has a much better speed stat that lets it beat a lot of mid-speed threats, most relevantly Samurott-Hisui and Gholdengo. It is not as easily speed-crept by defensive mons, and it has a much better Swampert matchup since it can 2HKO it with Solar Beam. All of this makes Ninetales better on certain teams. It doesn't directly outclass nor is it outclassed by CB Volcanion, which is why I put them at the same spot on the Choice Band list.
The comparison to Slaking is also weird to me, besides the fact that they both use V-create. Slaking's a lot more prediction-reliant and always needs to switch out after attacking thanks to Truant. It requires crisp prediction and clicking Self-Destruct at precisely the right time, as opposed to Ninetales and Volcanion which just spam V-create. Overall I think it just plays a lot differently.
Hi, I have decided to make a VR based on my somewhat limited experience with this tier, this isn't supposed to be super comprehensive but rather all the mons that I have seen be really consistent and benefit a lot from the rules of this format. Some of them are speculation since I haven't seen them firsthand so I might be underrating a few mons here, but overall I would say this is mostly accurate and reflects well what I've noticed to be the most useful and strong:
S
S-
A+
A
A-
B+
B
Other guys that don't benefit a lot from the format but are probably good just based on who they are and how they match up against the rest of the meta:
So, now with that laid out, before I move on to explaining some of the mons in this VR and their potential, I will preface it saying I'm number 2 on the ladder right now, and while that is a very good rank I don't feel like I have that much experience with the tier; this ladder is very slow and it's a bit hard to find matches, let alone matches with experienced players, which I find to be a huge shame because I like this tier way more than a good chunk of the permanent OMs, so this will hopefully spark a bit of motivation for people to try and experiment in this tier since I think there's huge potential and it's very fun. The meta is very decentralized with the exception of a few mons which make a lot of the matches feel a bit all over the place and hard to try to figure out what's good and what's not, which can be a good thing since a lot of pokemon get to shine, but also can make it harder for people getting into the tier and not knowing where to start and for experienced players to not really see it as a legitimate serious format. So I decided to make this personal VR as a way to have an outline for stuff that at least I think are good and are underexplored even.
Explanations:
Hisuian Goodra: This is the clear winner of this format as it often tends to do in other OMs, recovery on Shore Up and Strength Sap, an strong attacking move in Gigaton Hammer which hits hard even without investment, a lot of hazard setting options, and just the overall insane bulk of this mon makes it clearly the best mon of this tier, for now at least. Its presence lowkey invalidates a lot of special attacking mons and it is by far the best answer to boomburst primarina which is another top tier, disrupts setup with Dragon Tail and racks up damage with the hazards, Knocks Off items left and right and just sits there being a big bitch. Best mon in my eyes for sure
Primarina: Boomburst liquid voice, yep, that's it, that's the mon. The calcs on this thing are really stupid, most mons hit by it neutrally will just die, its presence makes balance teams pretty hard to use if they aren't relying on goodra, since in most cases even resists are taking over half, best way to deal with it is pressuring it offensively and pivoting around with your fat mons, but prim can really break through almost everything. The set I use and find to be the best is Boomburst, Calm Mind, Psystrike and Burning Bulwark. This thing getting Psystrike is half the reason it's so hard to counter, because if you want to wall it with your Toxapex, Blissey or Clodsire you have to be prepared for it to take 80+% or just be KO'd when prim is at +1. If hgoodra ever gets banned I think you will have to take this thing with it. This is not some unbeatable mon, just very strong and very oppressive.
Ok shorter sections for the next ones
Toxapex: I think it's slightly overrated but people value it a lot, teleport is just a huge game changer for it and single handedly makes it one of the safest mons to use, topsy turvy also being a very popular choice to stop setup mons. Mortal Spin, Trick Room, Mirror Coat, Thunder Wave, a lot of good options for it, solid
Ting Lu: it's Ting Lu but it can teleport, literally what else could you ask. Gets a lot of good options, trick room support, topsy turvy to stop setup, tidy up to clean hazards and even potentially sweeping on its own, I've seen a couple offensive Ting Lus and they are scary. Very good mon.
Greninja: hot take, I think fast stab fleur cannon is stupid. Protean gren is a menace in this format, either specs or scarf it just gets a lot of good options and coverage with F, very good
Cinderace: haven't experienced it first hand but I've been told this mon is insane and I get why, it just has a LOT of options and all of them can beat different teams, with SD on top of that this is just a really unpredictable mon.
Skeledirge: in my opinion the premier physical wall, just typing, bulk and the new access to strength sap plus potential pivoting option with chilly reception gives it a lot of utility.
Sand: basically the reason I'm #2 on the ladder, with heat and damp rock being banned it makes sand the defacto best weather in this tier, and these two abuse the format a lot as well. Tyranitar gets a lot with Tidy Up, Precipe Blades, Parting Shot, it's a huge utility mon that can also fill it's old dragon dance role with Tidy Up but with better utility. Excadrill is just another example that fast encore is broken in gen 9, the almost perfect coverage with Diamond Storm makes it really hard to deal with, plus the constant speed boost of sand rush, it gets dragon ascent too if you find yourself struggling with grass types. Just a really good archetype with these two leading it
Won't go over every single one but here's a few things I would like to highlight
Trick Room is really strong in this format, the fact every T mon gets the combination of trick room + teleport just launches forward this playstyle's viability significantly.
Victory Dance isn't very widespread but some of the users who get it are among the best in this meta, made even better with the option of V-Create and Volt Tackle for these mons
I find interesting that out of the normally banned mons in OU the only one I'm seeing get consistent play is Archaludon, I guess without tera these aren't that crazy but they are still very strong on their own merit and I would assume that with more play and better building these would end up seeing a lot of play.
I find equally interesting that OU staples like these aren't seeing play at all because of the meta that Alphabet Cup has, Zama is never getting through Pex and Skeledirge, Ghold has no rapid spin or defog to block since most removal is done via Tidy Up, and many of the normally strong mons in OU just don't match up well into this tier nor get a lot of options from it which makes this tier pretty fresh and different from other metagames.
Closing thoughts
I think this tier is cool as hell, I want to see it grow and have OM warriors push it to the heights I know it can get. I'm more than happy to expand on any of the mons and placements I made in this VR so feel free to reply if you want explanation on any of them. Thanks for reading
S
S-
A+
A
A-
B+
B
Other guys that don't benefit a lot from the format but are probably good just based on who they are and how they match up against the rest of the meta:
So, now with that laid out, before I move on to explaining some of the mons in this VR and their potential, I will preface it saying I'm number 2 on the ladder right now, and while that is a very good rank I don't feel like I have that much experience with the tier; this ladder is very slow and it's a bit hard to find matches, let alone matches with experienced players, which I find to be a huge shame because I like this tier way more than a good chunk of the permanent OMs, so this will hopefully spark a bit of motivation for people to try and experiment in this tier since I think there's huge potential and it's very fun. The meta is very decentralized with the exception of a few mons which make a lot of the matches feel a bit all over the place and hard to try to figure out what's good and what's not, which can be a good thing since a lot of pokemon get to shine, but also can make it harder for people getting into the tier and not knowing where to start and for experienced players to not really see it as a legitimate serious format. So I decided to make this personal VR as a way to have an outline for stuff that at least I think are good and are underexplored even.
Explanations:
Hisuian Goodra: This is the clear winner of this format as it often tends to do in other OMs, recovery on Shore Up and Strength Sap, an strong attacking move in Gigaton Hammer which hits hard even without investment, a lot of hazard setting options, and just the overall insane bulk of this mon makes it clearly the best mon of this tier, for now at least. Its presence lowkey invalidates a lot of special attacking mons and it is by far the best answer to boomburst primarina which is another top tier, disrupts setup with Dragon Tail and racks up damage with the hazards, Knocks Off items left and right and just sits there being a big bitch. Best mon in my eyes for sure Primarina: Boomburst liquid voice, yep, that's it, that's the mon. The calcs on this thing are really stupid, most mons hit by it neutrally will just die, its presence makes balance teams pretty hard to use if they aren't relying on goodra, since in most cases even resists are taking over half, best way to deal with it is pressuring it offensively and pivoting around with your fat mons, but prim can really break through almost everything. The set I use and find to be the best is Boomburst, Calm Mind, Psystrike and Burning Bulwark. This thing getting Psystrike is half the reason it's so hard to counter, because if you want to wall it with your Toxapex, Blissey or Clodsire you have to be prepared for it to take 80+% or just be KO'd when prim is at +1. If hgoodra ever gets banned I think you will have to take this thing with it. This is not some unbeatable mon, just very strong and very oppressive.Ok shorter sections for the next ones
Toxapex: I think it's slightly overrated but people value it a lot, teleport is just a huge game changer for it and single handedly makes it one of the safest mons to use, topsy turvy also being a very popular choice to stop setup mons. Mortal Spin, Trick Room, Mirror Coat, Thunder Wave, a lot of good options for it, solid Ting Lu: it's Ting Lu but it can teleport, literally what else could you ask. Gets a lot of good options, trick room support, topsy turvy to stop setup, tidy up to clean hazards and even potentially sweeping on its own, I've seen a couple offensive Ting Lus and they are scary. Very good mon. Greninja: hot take, I think fast stab fleur cannon is stupid. Protean gren is a menace in this format, either specs or scarf it just gets a lot of good options and coverage with F, very good Cinderace: haven't experienced it first hand but I've been told this mon is insane and I get why, it just has a LOT of options and all of them can beat different teams, with SD on top of that this is just a really unpredictable mon. Skeledirge: in my opinion the premier physical wall, just typing, bulk and the new access to strength sap plus potential pivoting option with chilly reception gives it a lot of utility. Sand: basically the reason I'm #2 on the ladder, with heat and damp rock being banned it makes sand the defacto best weather in this tier, and these two abuse the format a lot as well. Tyranitar gets a lot with Tidy Up, Precipe Blades, Parting Shot, it's a huge utility mon that can also fill it's old dragon dance role with Tidy Up but with better utility. Excadrill is just another example that fast encore is broken in gen 9, the almost perfect coverage with Diamond Storm makes it really hard to deal with, plus the constant speed boost of sand rush, it gets dragon ascent too if you find yourself struggling with grass types. Just a really good archetype with these two leading itWon't go over every single one but here's a few things I would like to highlight
Trick Room is really strong in this format, the fact every T mon gets the combination of trick room + teleport just launches forward this playstyle's viability significantly. Victory Dance isn't very widespread but some of the users who get it are among the best in this meta, made even better with the option of V-Create and Volt Tackle for these mons I find interesting that out of the normally banned mons in OU the only one I'm seeing get consistent play is Archaludon, I guess without tera these aren't that crazy but they are still very strong on their own merit and I would assume that with more play and better building these would end up seeing a lot of play. I find equally interesting that OU staples like these aren't seeing play at all because of the meta that Alphabet Cup has, Zama is never getting through Pex and Skeledirge, Ghold has no rapid spin or defog to block since most removal is done via Tidy Up, and many of the normally strong mons in OU just don't match up well into this tier nor get a lot of options from it which makes this tier pretty fresh and different from other metagames.Closing thoughts
I think this tier is cool as hell, I want to see it grow and have OM warriors push it to the heights I know it can get. I'm more than happy to expand on any of the mons and placements I made in this VR so feel free to reply if you want explanation on any of them. Thanks for reading
Tbf, about the Slaking part, Slaking can just use a Skill Swap Set. After one or two Victory Dances, it can sweep with Facade, even better if it gets burned.
A 23.4% chance to 2HKO is not exactly an upside and V-create can be exploited. Volcanion and the various Dragons (Salamence, Haxorus, Garchomp) can check Adamant Ninetales and threaten sweeps back and Ninetales' low base speed, bulk, and weakness to hazards means that it cannot switch in to the majority of attackers and safely fire off a V-create. Earthquake and Volt Tackle are not very exploitable moves, and this is only on the Choice Banded set. The mixed sets and Victory Dance provide much more unpredictability than a measly Ninetales does.
Gholdengo is not staying in on Volcanion or Ninetales unless the opponent is sacrificing it, and Samurott-Hisui can easily OHKO Ninetales if it is still holding its Focus Sash. Also 252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 127-151 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO is massive chip damage.
Isn't Ninetales forced to switch out of any matchup after attacking as well due to the speed and defense drop from V-create and/or being locked into Solar Beam? Choice Banded Slaking is not using Self-Destruct for the majority of the game and it can easily use Knock Off, V-create, and Earthquake to massively chip down the opponent's defensive walls or OHKO almost any offensive "check" that believes it's the Skill Swap set. I fail to see how Ninetales is not just as if not more prediction reliant than both Slaking and Volcanion due to it almost being forced to use V-create the entire time besides against Swampert, which it can't even OHKO 0 SpA Ninetales Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
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Ninetales is literal shit after a V-create not only that, it has to worry about coming in too. Unless we have a mon with Tidy Up, Rapid Spin, or Defog to support it.
Wait i’m sorry i forgot to specify that this is Choice Band Ninetales we’re talking about. Also im very concerned about why we’re chancing Azumarill on TOXAPEX of all mons when it 1. can’t OHKO it, 2. can get crippled by Pex’s Topsy Turvy and get statused as punishment 3. can switch OUT on it in the first place..? readytolose
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