Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Rekka's Backend]

Ogerpon is in a spot where it feels utterly oppressive in the guessing game (Knock??????????? Cidgal????????????? Play fucking ROugh????????????????), one wrong guess and you eat shit harder than anything. At least with Valiant, once you know its Phys or SPA or mixed you can reliably bring in your big answer for it. Or just roar. But the issue with Oger is that until you know its set, and then know if it'll just heal in your face, its a frustrating game. especially when you eat a potential +2 crit to the face cuz lol

I find it annoying, its not Roaring Moon but it feels distinctly toxic to me in a way that a lot of other mons that are good don't. Dragapult is a mon that has huge variance, that if you don't know its set can punch holes, but it also doesn't have Encore. Or healing. Or knock off. Ogerpon's sheer value per turn can be massive, I really hate to fucking say it but every team i've made recently has had Ogerpon in some compacity simply because it makes playing against Oger itself easier and improves so many matchups for me lol. I feel dirty.

 

[Hon07rial]

In the light of mons that will get better if Waterpon leaves, I am surprised no one has mentioned Grasspon yet.
I find Grasspon to be a very interesting pokemon. Its set diversity is immaculate with the free item slot, it has the most threatening embody aspect in speed, can be a huge problem for webs teams and has even found some (although small) use on hstack.

 

[Magcargo]

In the light of mons that will get better if Waterpon leaves, I am surprised no one has mentioned Grasspon yet.
I find Grasspon to be a very interesting pokemon. Its set diversity is immaculate with the free item slot, it has the most threatening embody aspect in speed, can be a huge problem for webs teams and has even found some (although small) use on hstack.

isnt this mon's main niche checking Waterpon on balances/ bulky offenses? Why would it get better? I dont think it competes much with Waterpon in the first place.

 

[JackRG]

isnt this mon's main niche checking Waterpon on balances/ bulky offenses? Why would it get better? I dont think it competes much with Waterpon in the first place.

If anything will be the mon that fills the role of if it ever gets banned. is more of a pivot/spiker where as and are breakers, making them compete with each other more directly.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I see Grasspon being used on bootspam hazard stacking balances, since unlike Waterpon, it can hold boots

An example team I saw would be


However waterpon is usually used on faster paced teams where you won’t feel her hazard weakness as much
So the niche each of them fill are not the same.
Maybe Choice Band Grasspon could rise, but that’s it,

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

What do yall feel about Slither Wing? It matches up really well into tusk and can u-turn on it

 

[EpicGuy321]

AV Mola would have nothing stopping its pivot. That alone is reason to never ban wellspring. That Pokémon is actually skill-less gameplay.

I think oger is to balance as ursaluna is to stall. Balance just going to have a bad time. That’s not a bad thing. It just means balance is weak vs oger. There are things you can use if you want to slow it down, such as ammoongus , hydrapple, deagonite, kyurem, sinistcha, pecharunt, or more exotic things that are immune to water.

A Pokémon like this is only a problem if you can’t answer defensively or offensively for the same set, without needing like avalugg or scarf dragapult. That was the gouging fire problem: too fat to Ohko and too threatening to give pivots. Again, for oger, I think this is only getting iffy for the fat trailblaze sets.

Knock Off and Hazards both exist. AV Mola is far from unkillable (it’s literally 2HKOed by Headlong Rush after 3 spikes). I’m a big fan of AV Mola but this is glaze

What do yall feel about Slither Wing? It matches up really well into tusk and can u-turn on it

I love defensive Slither Wing. I had a great team with it, I think it looked something like this https://pokepast.es/43a809e1871f3ff8. Being able to switch in on Ogerpon and threaten it out with First Impression is great. Also switches into Darkrai and some other things.

 

[658Greninja]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

 

[Heatranator]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

Short answer: No
Long answer: Nope


Okay, memes aside, while I can see some use cases for this set, it still struggles immensly with the overall metagame. Sure, you can 2HKO Ting Lu, but thats only if you click Low Kick first, if you don't then ting lu is beating you. Sure, you can click gunk into the fairies, but its not really accurate enough to do so. And you still struggle immensly into most priority moves. So the issue again becomes, why am I using this over other fast frail attackers? Especially since greninja struggles to switch in a lot of the time, with even deoxys have enough bulk and resistances to switch in once in a while. I also think the weaknesses of Deo-S are overstated tbh. While AV Hatt and Primarina 'check' Deoxys, they kinda get bullied in the process. AV Hatt gets its item removed, while primarina gets its AV knocked and then takes a lot of damage. Same with garg, which hates losing its lefties. As for Psycho Boost, while -2 is annoying, typically Deo-S's coverage means it isn't completely free setup. Dnite is a fair point, but also a lot of the Dark and Steels do not like Superpower/Knock at all. Finaly, while Gren has a Sucker Punch resistance, this is only true if it hasn't attacked with Dark Pulse or Low Kick, if it clicks Ice Beam, Gunk Shot or Grass Knot, then its heavily threatened out. I just don't think in a meta where even your offensive pieces have to contribute defensively in some way Gren can really work in, this set also doesn't help check things offensively since its outsped by scarf mons and booster energy mons.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I’ve seen Greninja being used with Choice Specs Tera Water Battle Bond on rain teams to attempt to run over offense teams after getting a KO and a Battle Bond boost. Though it’s not like rain is lacking in speed control tools with Barraskewda, Raging Bolt, Overqwil etc

 

[Magcargo]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

Specs on paper seems pretty solid - you have Stronger Ice / Water STAB + U-turn over Darkrai, as well as stronger Poison STAB coverage for Fairies. Main niche over Weav / Meow is probably making no contact. Could see it being pretty solid.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

i'm sorry to be a killjoy but i don't think the oras set has much potential here. i hate to say this because i loved gren back in the day, but it's aged incredibly poorly. protean is no longer the awesome rock-star "stab on everything and a constantly shifting set of defensive matchups" ability that it used to be. nowadays you effectively lock yourself out of all other stabs until you switch, which makes a lot of greninja's calcs not work in practice. you'll find yourself forced to switch out of otherwise advantageous positions because the last thing you killed locked you into a different type than the one that works against the thing that came out after it. after that protean gets popped, greninja just doesn't really hit the good benchmarks for a fast offense guy or a mixed wallbreaker unless you stay clicking the same move. so it's got similar momentum risks to a choice user without having the damage output to match. sure, you can click another move, unlike a choice user, but it's hardly going to do anything and you're gonna be eating lorb recoil + whatever the opponent decides to do back to you which will probably kill because greninja was born with glass bones and paper skin. if anything would work on this set, i'd think it'd probably be specs (with grass knot over low kick obviously)—you're going to be doing most of the same switching and midgrounds and predictions as a choice user, so why not lean into it and just be an actual choice user

now battle bond, on the other hand, i feel like that's got potential. i have a completely unsubstantiated hunch, not backed up by any logic or evidence, that battle bond greninja will make a comeback at some point next spring. no idea why, you'll have to ask whatever cosmic entity beams hunches into my brain

 

[UltraSword]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

I think the main problem with Protean Greninja is that it is just worse Meowscarada in almost every way. Meowscarada is not that good itself but it at least has a lot of really good traits such as strong Knock Off, high speed (which is ironically one point faster than Greninja), and great stab in the form of Flower Trick. Greninja at least has special attacking capabilities where Meowscarada doesn't, but it is still not very strong with only 103 special attack. What made Protean Greninja work in gen 6/7 was it had access to pre nerf Protean which allowed it to get stab on all of its moves and even get defensive utility with its access to spikes giving it electric immunity and a way to force progress. Now its low special attack holds it back since it no longer gets stab on every move it makes and it can't use its defensive utility either since it is so slow compared to many other offensive threats. The point is Protean Greninja does not work well in the current meta. If it had access to Protean at its full potential it probably would be OU (though only because Meowscarada would probably be banned).

 

[Moyashi]

I think the main problem with Protean Greninja is that it is just worse Meowscarada in almost every way. Meowscarada is not that good itself but it at least has a lot of really good traits such as strong Knock Off, high speed (which is ironically one point faster than Greninja), and great stab in the form of Flower Trick. Greninja at least has special attacking capabilities where Meowscarada doesn't, but it is still not very strong with only 103 special attack. What made Protean Greninja work in gen 6/7 was it had access to pre nerf Protean which allowed it to get stab on all of its moves and even get defensive utility with its access to spikes giving it electric immunity and a way to force progress. Now its low special attack holds it back since it no longer gets stab on every move it makes and it can't use its defensive utility either since it is so slow compared to many other offensive threats. The point is Protean Greninja does not work well in the current meta. If it had access to Protean at its full potential it probably would be OU (though only because Meowscarada would probably be banned).

This isn’t really true and I’m confused why this notion still exists. Meow and Gren fulfill very different roles, attacking on different offensive sides. The fact that Meowscarada is more of a long term progress maker with knock off, but it has such a vulnerability to contact punishing effects (quite prevalent in this metagame) hinders its consistency, in addition to it generally being dependent on prediction when running choice sets and teams are simply too loaded with answers to it to make it super scary. Now, a Banded Meow can still put in work on occasion but again, it relies on prediction due to its stabs being commonly resisted. (And as an aside, FlowerTrick is strong but it’s not a good offensive type which hinders Meow)

Greninja on the other hand has no fear of contact punishing, and attacking on the special side has merit when lots of prominent stopgaps used (Pecharunt, Dragonite, the birds) all tend towards physical bulk, so it can prey on this aspect of the metagame. It has small but legitimate defensive use in checking Gholdengo. It doesn’t love Bolt existing to sponge water STAB, but both Specs Dark Pulse and more important Ice Beam keep the dragon from freely switching in without risk.

Of course Greninja also suffers from flaws like prediction reliance, not quite being strong enough to just down fully healthy threats, and like Meow, hates hazards, but it certainly isn’t just “worse meow in almost every way”. It’s quite distinct and does its own thing.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This isn’t really true and I’m confused why this notion still exists. Meow and Gren fulfill very different roles, attacking on different offensive sides. The fact that Meowscarada is more of a long term progress maker with knock off, but it has such a vulnerability to contact punishing effects (quite prevalent in this metagame) hinders its consistency, in addition to it generally being dependent on prediction when running choice sets and teams are simply too loaded with answers to it to make it super scary. Now, a Banded Meow can still put in work on occasion but again, it relies on prediction due to its stabs being commonly resisted. (And as an aside, FlowerTrick is strong but it’s not a good offensive type which hinders Meow)

Greninja on the other hand has no fear of contact punishing, and attacking on the special side has merit when lots of prominent stopgaps used (Pecharunt, Dragonite, the birds) all tend towards physical bulk, so it can prey on this aspect of the metagame. It has small but legitimate defensive use in checking Gholdengo. It doesn’t love Bolt existing to sponge water STAB, but both Specs Dark Pulse and more important Ice Beam keep the dragon from freely switching in without risk.

Of course Greninja also suffers from flaws like prediction reliance, not quite being strong enough to just down fully healthy threats, and like Meow, hates hazards, but it certainly isn’t just “worse meow in almost every way”. It’s quite distinct and does its own thing.

the reason why this belief is so hard to kill, i think, is because the mons' designs rhyme. they're both fast, frail dark-type starters with protean, they're both signature-ish mons of an anime protagonist, they both conform to the "gee i sure wonder which starter is going to be in the next smash bros wink wink nudge nudge" design philosophy, and so on. they're so similar in so many other ways that you can't help but subconsciously try to compare them to each other competitively, even though all their competitive similarities are very surface-level and they occupy completely different roles

The point is Protean Greninja does not work well in the current meta. If it had access to Protean at its full potential it probably would be OU (though only because Meowscarada would probably be banned).

i don't know about meowscarada being banned if protean hadn't been nerfed. it lessens the prediction burden a lot and makes meowscarada much better and less switch-reliant, but would that break the mon in an environment this powercrept? an environment where everyone can pop a mid-battle type change and the meta is defined largely by who can take the best advantage of that? i have my doubts

 

[toshimelonhead]

I don't know if Greninja is just a different Meowscarada in frog form. The bigger issue is the power creep. It's not fast enough to outspeed the heavy hitters before Battle Bond (Dragapult, Zamazenta) and isn't bulky enough to take any type of attack. Even with nice but not great attacking stats that combination is a death sentence in SV OU. In UU it can shine because the power creepers are kicked upstairs, but SV OU has no room for glass cannons that aren't broken in other ways.

As for Slither Wing...Tusk is actually one of its worst matchups depending on the set if it doesn't have Will-o-Wisp. The Bulk Up Rapid Spin sets can set up with little concern for Slither Wing's other attacks. I like it better as a Kingambit and Wellspring check. First Impression with more bulk than Lokix at the cost of less attacking power is really nice to have. The really bulky ones can at least switch into Kyurem (barely, but even barely is impressive given Kyurem's attack power). Sample set below. Speed is enough for outspeeding Kingambit, Adamant gets an OHKO on Wellspring with First Impression, rest in HP and Defense. Tera is flexible, but when in doubt in SV OU, pick Tera Fairy. It might prevent Kyurem or Dragapult from dropping a draco at the worst moment.


Slither Wing @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- U-turn / Will-o-Wisp

 

[Rekka's Backend]

"gee i sure wonder which starter is going to be in the next smash bros wink wink nudge nudge" design philosophy

ok but Meow in Smash would go hard as fuck. Unlike Greninja which is a FRAUD in smash. I'm still incredibly irate that we never got silly kitty in that game as DLC somehow.

anyhows...

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

I do think Greninja has potential. I used it for awhile as a TB Fairy answer for some threats a few months back and it was surprisingly fun to use on the team. I think it definitely needs hazard support though, spikes at least. Just because so many good OU mons are also bulky enough to just live one Protean hit usually.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

 

[658Greninja]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

Generally speaking, Gliscor complaints have subsided. SD Gliscor structures aren’t as popular as they were back in late 2024/early 2025. The increased usage of Corv/G-Weez meant that SD Gliscor isn’t a free win vs Balance/Stall structures anymore. SD variants lack defensive utility, so you could safely switch into your Wellspring or Tusk as long as you keep hazards off. Players have also gotten better at pressuring Gliscor offensively with random Ice Beam mons and strong breakers like Wellspring. Being forced to Tera can hinder Gliscor if Spikes are up.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

 

[JackRG]

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

how can someone asking a single question get turned into a whole ideological debate bro. I don't really know who doesn't understand this btw, that is literally the whole reason suspect tests exist. Stuff isn't retested often because there (typically) isn't much of a reason to retest something that has already been established as broken.

 

[toshimelonhead]

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

I consider this "mostly true" -- but "forever" gets reset at every release. It just feels long now since we haven't had a release or even a minor game release in a long stretch. Gliscor came back even in gen 9 with new releases.

 

[Karxrida]

tbf unbans within the same generation are indeed quite rare. Gliscor returning so quickly was kind of an anomaly all things considered.

But trying to emphasize the "they're gone forever" aspect does the opposite of helping your stance. That's kind of a selling point for the people who want to ban shit.

 

[UltraSword]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

I believe the Gliscor suspect (the dnb one) came at a time when the best pokemon were considered to be Great Tusk and Kingambit. Since that time, Ting-Lu (and Dragonite but that isn't important to this discussion) has been moved up to S tier while Great Tusk and Kingambit were moved to S-. The thing that makes this important is that Ting-Lu is a lot better as a hazard setter/wall than Gliscor in most instances. Gliscor is still has its place on teams where Ting-Lu wouldn't fit as well but it has become pretty clear (at least in my experience) that if Ting-Lu, the 155 hp 125 defense behemoth who also has great special defense thanks to its ability, isn't broken then Gliscor definitely isn't. As for SD sets, uuuuuuh I am not really sure why anyone really considered them broken. Gliscor definitely has longevity that most offensive pokemon would die for and Facade without the usual drawbacks is pretty strong, but it is still coming off of a pokemon with 95 attack. But maybe that is just me. I do not believe Gliscor is broken or unhealthy in any way at the moment.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

how can someone asking a single question get turned into a whole ideological debate bro. I don't really know who doesn't understand this btw, that is literally the whole reason suspect tests exist. Stuff isn't retested often because there (typically) isn't much of a reason to retest something that has already been established as broken.

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about. The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression. Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.