Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 15: Without Me | Flutter Mane Suspect

[bagel]

Guess who's back, back again?
Shady's back, tell a friend
Guess who's back, guess who's back
Guess who's back, guess who's back
Guess who's back, guess who's back
Guess who's back

​

After the results of the most recent tiering survey, the DOU Council has decided to revisit Flutter Mane! The Paradox Pokemon has been the subject of three previous suspects but now we're here to settle its fate in SV DOU once and for all.

A strong and fast attacker, what sets Flutter Mane apart from other glass cannons is its versatility. Flutter Mane can run any of Speed Booster, Special Attack Booster, Choice Specs, Focus Sash and more for its item, and can make use of utility moves such as Taunt, Icy Wind and Substitute alongside its powerful Fairy + Ghost STAB options. When legal, Flutter Mane was a common partner for Pokemon such as Chi-Yu and Landorus, taking advantage of their ability to pressure common Fairy resists and creating strong dynamic offensive synergies.

Flutter Mane's offensive prowess is offset by its low HP and physical bulk, often leaving it vulnerable to the myriad of priority attackers in the tier. Additionally, it is often heavily reliant on partners to help it break through specially bulky opponents and Fairy resists. As is common with fast and frail attackers, Flutter Mane is especially vulnerable to Trick Room and can often be taken advantage of by those structures.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to unban Flutter Mane.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Yoda2798 , or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/bagel or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2980 (using a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this).
The suspect laddering period is now underway and the deadline for getting requirements is<t:1757289600:F>.

Additionally there will be 2 live suspect tournaments in the Smogon Doubles Showdown room. The winner of each of these tournaments will qualify for suspect voting, and should reach out to me, bagel or another member of staff so we can verify and add them to the voting pool.

Suspect Tournament Times
<t:1756569600:F>
<t:1756670400:F>

Flutter Mane will be legal on ladder during this suspect.

Flutter Mane will not be legal in the Fall Seasonal or any other tournaments featuring SV Doubles OU

 

[R.para ti]

What are Coil points, i not familiriarized with this type of suspect, if someone delete this, ask to me private chat

 

[Heatranator]

Repeat this meme 3 times

 

[zoe]

 

[sheepie]

How did we let me get recs first

Okay, so, somehow, I'm kinda split on flutter. On one hand its very very powerful, and really overbearing for offense, and kinda ruins a lot of the meta. On the other hand, rilla, woger, trick room, and a few other things are very problematic for it. It's not flawless at offense, and is not that difficult to handle all things considered, but that requires very specific counterplay and I'm not sure if it would be healthy for the tier to mandate such measures. I'm leaning ban rn, but it really is up for debate for me. I want to see how people develop around flutter during the suspect before deciding. Anyways, in terms of my run it was pretty chill, a couple sells a couple tough misses but overall relatively easy and fun. I used paonite for the first bit before transitioning to this shitshow which basically destroyed any unprepped team and then thudded into most teams that had sufficient bulk. https://pokepast.es/dbbea3595c61f5fd
But I think something really interesting about this team is the core of flutter, yu, lando, it has like 0 defensive answers, and almost no offensive answers, it can quite easily just crumble any team with ease that isn't screens with super special bulk (provided u hit sandsears and heat waves), and I think this core itself is immensely dangerous for the tier with very little counterplay. i also LOVE raging bolt here, being able to stack so many multipliers and deal truly ridiculous damage. Anyways, good luck to all others doing the suspect, and I look forward to seeing some more (knowledgeable) opinions on flutter.

 

[Schister]

https://pokepast.es/9c66a6453054fa9c

Gatekeep the other suspect accounts with psyspam!

 

[ratpacker]

:brick:

 

[sir jelloton]

View attachment 767608
How did we let me get recs first

Okay, so, somehow, I'm kinda split on flutter. On one hand its very very powerful, and really overbearing for offense, and kinda ruins a lot of the meta. On the other hand, rilla, woger, trick room, and a few other things are very problematic for it. It's not flawless at offense, and is not that difficult to handle all things considered, but that requires very specific counterplay and I'm not sure if it would be healthy for the tier to mandate such measures. I'm leaning ban rn, but it really is up for debate for me. I want to see how people develop around flutter during the suspect before deciding. Anyways, in terms of my run it was pretty chill, a couple sells a couple tough misses but overall relatively easy and fun. I used paonite for the first bit before transitioning to this shitshow which basically destroyed any unprepped team and then thudded into most teams that had sufficient bulk. https://pokepast.es/dbbea3595c61f5fd
But I think something really interesting about this team is the core of flutter, yu, lando, it has like 0 defensive answers, and almost no offensive answers, it can quite easily just crumble any team with ease that isn't screens with super special bulk (provided u hit sandsears and heat waves), and I think this core itself is immensely dangerous for the tier with very little counterplay. i also LOVE raging bolt here, being able to stack so many multipliers and deal truly ridiculous damage. Anyways, good luck to all others doing the suspect, and I look forward to seeing some more (knowledgeable) opinions on flutter.

How did u get 3000 coil at 29-7

 

[sheepie]

How did u get 3000 coil at 29-7

I played like 7 players 200-300 elo above me at the end in a row, got to 2780 at like 26-3.

 

[Givrix]

https://pokepast.es/9c66a6453054fa9c

Gatekeep the other suspect accounts with psyspam!

I did my job

 

[Yoda2798]

Congrats to zee for winning the first suspect tour! They qualify for reqs now as a result.
Finals replay, semis 1 replay, semis 2 replay

Bracket (28 players)

Reminder there will be a second suspect tour at <t:1756670400:F>.

 

[Pengu]

Had an insanely smooth run (tbf I was using psyspam, team here) and here are my thoughts.

keep flutter mane banned. This thing has been banned for a reason; its just too strong. Insanely min-maxxed and the tier struggles to resist it at all aside from tera (and heatran which loses to lando). Even Pokemon with Tera Fire, Steel, or Poison fear Flutter Mane due to partners like lando and chi-yu. I don't think there is much I need to say, but keep flutter mane banned.

 

[LogIce]

Finished suspect reqs, just wanted to give some quick thoughts.

I will be voting to keep Flutter Mane banned. Similar to the previous suspect attempts, flutter is too powerful of a force both in the builder and in actual practice.

On the checks: Heatran, AV Incineroar, Amoonguss, and Volcanion are probably the most consistent flutter mane checks the tier has access to, and they aren't great into the rest of the metagame. Running each of these has opportunity cost at being weaker to other common structures, like hail (amoonguss), wellspring bolt balance, Landorus, or glimmora structures. It is worth mentioning that when paired with chi yu (or even tornadus/landorus), common counter play becomes extremely limited (defensive Teras) and forcing pins is easy to the point where it is an uninteractive presence.

A few funny calcs when boosted by chi yu:
140 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Beads of Ruin Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
140 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Beads of Ruin Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 180-213 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
140 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Beads of Ruin Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 237-279 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
140 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Beads of Ruin Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 56+ SpD Amoonguss: 201-237 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
140 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Beads of Ruin Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 56+ SpD Amoonguss: 255-300 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Solo calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 384-454 (104 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 330-390 (90.6 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

SV DOU is in a good place right now. We have seen adaptations like icy wind chien pao and bronzong, as well as more balance oriented structures being popular with calm mind bolt and rillaboom since the archaludon ban. Adding flutter mane to the meta does nothing but centralize the builder and reward braindead clicker offense structures.

In short: no changes need to be made. Keep flutter banned.

 

[R0gue_VGC]

What are Coil points, i not familiriarized with this type of suspect, if someone delete this, ask to me private chat

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/coil-explained.3508013/ Read this bro

 

[R0gue_VGC]

Finished suspect reqs and can confirm that Flutter is, in fact, disgustingly overpowered in this format. I used a hyper-offensive team that didn't include either Landorus or Chi-yu, which are, arguably, Flutter Mane's best partners, and I still found specs Flutter to be absolutely ridiculous when it comes to offensive power, being able to pick up way to many OHKOs with Tera Fairy Choice Specs Moonblast, while outspeeding nearly every meta Pokemon. I personally believe that Flutter Mane should not be allowed in OU.

 

[Ultimathrash]

Light work with scizor ggs. (https://pokepast.es/2cef4d1cbdae034e)

Just to share some thoughts, flutter mane is scizor food, but at the same time it deals an unfun amount of damage with 0 setup and apparently has like 20 sets from icy wind booster to sash to specs to spa booster(Ladder!?) and lefties cm and all of that. From what I've seen on ladder, Flutter mane in the format is just gonna be a long, boring, unfun road to uninteractive scarf yu fm hyperoffense. 'Oooh look at me I can click tera fairy beads of ruin dazzling gleam and chi yu heat wave t1 im so good at the game!' Not the format I want to play. Hence I will be voting BAN.

 

[Zephyr Moonbeam]

Light work with scizor ggs. (https://pokepast.es/2cef4d1cbdae034e)

Just to share some thoughts, flutter mane is scizor food, but at the same time it deals an unfun amount of damage with 0 setup and apparently has like 20 sets from icy wind booster to sash to specs to spa booster(Ladder!?) and lefties cm and all of that. From what I've seen on ladder, Flutter mane in the format is just gonna be a long, boring, unfun road to uninteractive scarf yu fm hyperoffense. 'Oooh look at me I can click tera fairy beads of ruin dazzling gleam and chi yu heat wave t1 im so good at the game!' Not the format I want to play. Hence I will be voting BAN.

Absolutely goated performance.....

 

[R0gue_VGC]

Light work with scizor ggs. (https://pokepast.es/2cef4d1cbdae034e)

Just to share some thoughts, flutter mane is scizor food, but at the same time it deals an unfun amount of damage with 0 setup and apparently has like 20 sets from icy wind booster to sash to specs to spa booster(Ladder!?) and lefties cm and all of that. From what I've seen on ladder, Flutter mane in the format is just gonna be a long, boring, unfun road to uninteractive scarf yu fm hyperoffense. 'Oooh look at me I can click tera fairy beads of ruin dazzling gleam and chi yu heat wave t1 im so good at the game!' Not the format I want to play. Hence I will be voting BAN.

Scizor food until you add bulk to specs flutter, and use incin
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Flutter Mane: 134-158 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Metal Coat Technician Sword of Ruin Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Flutter Mane: 144-170 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Already having the offensive prowess flutter is known for, specs sets can actually afford to invest heavily into bulk and still get mostly similar damage, and with sun, speed investment on flutter is nearly irrelevant.
In the future, I can't imagine the technology flutter sets would run to adapt to meta counters, another idea being ground tera blast. With enough time for experimentation, I believe that flutter could be completely and utterly broken and unhealthy for the format.

 

[zee]

Gonna play devil's advocate and say I think Flutter Mane would be fine, actually. Posting all these calcs is cool and all, but there are several Pokemon currently in the tier you can do this for (any Beads of Ruin Flutter calc is running parallel or just worse than Sword of Ruin Dragonite). Yes. drop Flutter Mane into the present DOU metagame and you'll find it's instantly the best Pokemon, but I think there are a lot of positive traits Flutter introduces into the metagame while being stabile enough to actually be reintroduced to the tier.

1) The metagame is too physical. I think the best example of this was the massive Glimmora usage from the Kunal tour. Top players are loading teams with 4-6 physical attackers all the time, because it either guarantees Glimmora takes an action or forces Tspikes down. Having access to a strong, fast special attacker would free up teambuilding immensely for elements such as the aforementioned, Snow, and the booster speed Breaking Swipe dragons.

2) Fairy coverage is severely lacking. The metagame has been warped around Dragon tera (or Dragons in general) really hard in the past few months. Dragon Gholdengo and Diancie are really dumb boosters that can take one kill and become nearly untouchable after ripping the button and are the most egregious examples of what I mean, but I think something that puts more pressure on Raging Bolt, Iron Hands, Kyurem, and Roaring Moon is a positive.

3) The speed ceiling becomes (positively) diversified. If your team, for whatever reason, could not fit Chien-Pao, you were pretty much locked into a scarfer or a niche speed booster to have anything faster than Tornadus on your team. It's a good amount of options, sure, but outside of scarf Landorus-I, these are pretty much all physical, and that loops back to my issues with point 1.

Flutter itself is also not a perfect Pokemon. Specs Flutter plays a constant catch-22 with its stat distribution, you can invest in bulk to take some neutral hits you might not otherwise like Pao's Ice Spinner or an Ivy Cudgel. The problem is, if you then want to be faster than say, Tornadus, you're going to quickly find out those 252+ calcs people are posting are a little off from what you can actually afford on a viable team. If you opt to run a booster support set instead, a lot of the offensive pressure goes out of the window (but there's that Icy Wind Pao check everyone's looking for!). Checking it is not as simple as running Scizor, but it's a little disingenuous to pretend that Assault Vest Incineroar and Amoonguss are some DUU suboptimal Pokemon to be playing with here. Invest in your SpDef stat and run a fairy resist, plan for Chi-Yu Flutter like you plan for Pao-Nite, and you'll be fine.

(click sprites for the paste)

This is the team I won the suspect tour with, and I think it's a great example of a team built to account for Flutter's presence. Fire Tera Bronzong and AV Incineroar help with Flutter + potential Chi-Yu a lot, Ursaluna and Bronzong can OHKO it in Trick Room, Wellspring can tera and use the SpDef boost to trade up with it, and Crash Pao preys on Specs Flutters not running enough defense investment. GIve it a try if you haven't made your ladder run yet.

 

[calciumnyl]

I second most of what sheepie said (how do you link users), and like them i am unsure what to vote for and used https://pokepast.es/dbbea3595c61f5fd for the majority of the suspect. I am leaning more towards an unban, however i do acknowledge that flutter kinda destroys everything when paired with chiyu and landoi, including trick room (it just kills all the setters), and also all the ban flutter arguments are pretty valid. That being said, I do think that the format could handle it, but i'll have to think a bit before coming to a conclusion im happy with.

 

[bagel]

Congrats to DaAwesomeDude1 for winning the second suspect tour! They qualify for reqs now as a result.
Finals replay, semis 1 replay, semis 2 replay

Bracket (25 players)

 

[Orange Crayon Eater]

im a fairly new player but i managed to go 29-1 and get reqs in like 2~ hours far sooner then i expected, i used some sun team a freind passed me. i dont really get why this is being retested for the 3rd? time, the fact that my dumbass can just click the funny moonblast and win is telling of how balanced this mon is (it's not) i will be voting dnb. https://pokepast.es/6580096b4aa36182

 

[Sapphire]

14:41 -> 18:07 done
chi-yu flutter -> sweep
https://pokepast.es/0bb938337178c516 (it's a bad team don't use for real games, good for suspect though!)