Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

[DEG]

+No reason for it to be banned ngl, it's not "proven" broken
+can shift the metagame to another environment without tipping the scale by much
+cheesable weakness, you're not forced to bend your ways to beat it, and since no zard x then you're not afraid of counter or anything else
+linear ev and moves wise

-Air Slash still does air slash thing but so does mega gyara w/ waterfall
-meta is balanced no need to add another element
-disgusting steel megas+zard y cores however adaptable since it was like that

honestly i can get both opinions but i'm more open to free zard y because it was never broken before (only got banned due to x) and we haven't tested it without x.

anw only way to fix ORAS top heavy is to make a mega clause (only one mega per team), otherwise it'll always be top heavy no matter what you're trying to do.

 

[neomon]

Back with the BW Survey results

10 people voted (9 qualified voters (QV)) (same amount of voters as post OGPL)

• On a scale of 1-10, how much do you enjoy the current metagame?

Average: 7,7 (QV: 7,9)
slight decrease from last time (8) but in general the metagames seems to be enjoyable for the playerbase.

• On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?

Average: 6,8 (QV: 7,0)
Almost identical to Post OGPL

• On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about _?

The results will be shown in the table

	Genesect	Meloetta	Haxorus	Tornadus
Average	2,9	2,9	2,9	2,1
QV	2,9	3	3,1	2,0

With no pokemon exceeding 3,0 nothing seems to be a big issue for the metagame as it stands. Haxorus has emerged as something that divides opinions, specifically on council. The metagame will be monitored over the duration of WCOP and afterwards, as usual.

• Tiering action

This time, we added a question if people support or dont support tiering actions for each of the mons mentioned by name in the survey.

Tornadus: 9 no action / 1 action
Genesect: 6 no action / 4 action
Haxorus: 4 no action / 6 action
Meloetta: 6 no action / 4 action

While Haxorus reached a majority on this question, due to the results above, for now, no tiering action will be initiated.

• Other mentions

Other mentions mentioned Snorlax as a potentially unhealthy pokemon, which was left of the survey. One comment was concerning the depth of the sets comp, which is going to be worked on in the near future.

 

[Elo Bandit]

TAKE THE SM 1v1 SURVEY
Give us your thoughts on the current state of the metagame!

The SM 1v1 Survey Results are out!

Qualified Responses

2/3 of responses come from qualified SM tour players.

Metagame Health

The SM Metagame is regarded as very healthy, with an average score of 4.3̅. The average score between qualified tour players was 4.25.

Metagame Enjoyability

SM 1v1 is considered very enjoyable by players, with an average score of 4.25, and by qualified tour players with an average score of 4.0.

Resource Quality

SM 1v1 has good but dated resources, with an average score of 3.2727, or 3.1429 among qualified tour players. The usum-resources 1v1 discord community has been working on an updated EV explanation document in a push to modernize resources for the generation.

Metagame Direction

The SM 1v1 metagame itself is in a good place, we just need to update and maintain our resources and set comps more frequently.

Suspect Testing

None (3), Dragonite (3), Metagross-Mega (1), Venusaur-Mega / Sleep (1)
No suspect test is planned for the near future, though we will continue to keep an eye on Dragonite and any other tournament breakout sets.

Thank you for participating in the SM 1v1 Survey!

 

[Felucia]

I learned my lesson from the survey post and will not write a long essay on ZardY and will keep it short instead. Like radu said, we shouldn't come at this from a perspective of "should ZardY have been banned" and instead need to treat it like any unban. With that in mind, I think ZardY is incredibly strong and potentially could completely snap the meta in half, it has an incredibly forgiving speed tier and EVs to spare to bulk practically anything faster than it without losing out on the damage to ohko a significant portion of the meta. Its rock weakness doesn't create many would-be checks or counters, because going down the VR I'd argue Greninja, Sylveon, and maybe Magnezone are close to the only mons that can viably fit HP Rock on their sets without significant opportunity cost. It's true that something like Metagross can tech zardy, but it requires 2 moveslots and high speed investment to do so.

All in all I think ZardY will unnecessarily constrain the ORAS meta if unbanned, hindering meta diversity by pigeonholing mons that currently have set diversity into running much more limited sets with good ZardY matchups, and overall being too centralising.

Edit: And yeah ZardY can also air slash any bad matchups but honestly I don't care about that too much

 

[LittEleven]

Undecided overall going to VR zardy / soft predict its impact on the tier if unbanned. zardy usually gets 1 move extra to tech stuff with 3 slots being blast burn / air slash / solar beam, meaning mirror is usually just determined by speed, zardy doesnt need flame charge as much as it does in sm i think? but can use it
Gardevoir-Mega - facepalm, edgy mu, air slash into blast beats most gardes and they fail to kill you with hp rock but they might click trick room and encore you -> 2x hp rock ?_? but then they lose to flinch turn 1 while trying to tech you lmao. idk not in garde favour to tech pretty much
Manaphy - y can bulk specs ancient power and endure on custap pretty unviable ; stall sets get a lot worse
Mawile-Mega - lol this mon needs its time back in jail more than ever
Metagross-Mega - tech war (sub/attack turn 1 from zardy vs protect/attack turn 1 from meta)
Victini - zardy should lose efficiently unless it's counter (loses a lot of its mus doing this)
Greninja - endure mindgames, flame charge can finesse sub
Heatran - rock move
Lopunny-Mega - endure
Slowbro-Mega - zardy should win with good evs unless you get thunder wave rain danced on
Genesect - i guess hp rock?? rolls but sect is definitely not as favored
Gengar-Mega - flame charge :( though specs can kill
Gyarados-Mega - stone edge gyara YAY I LOVE INACCURATE ROCK MOVES
Kyurem-Black - should be consistent with scarf or like some super spdef sets esp cause you can click fusion bolt without needing to setguess
Porygon-Z - endure mindgames
Sableye-Mega - bad rolls for sab and is critbait
Altaria-Mega - I LOVE AIR SLASH FLINCH
Chansey - seems pretty unlikely to get teched
Darkrai - can find multiple consistent ways to win
Dragonite - favored usually (scarf cant get easily countered on with rock move / mandates max investment to make it a 20% roll)
Meloetta - unfort you have to click beam to kill with specs so you can get endured/subbed on
Togekiss - i missed you before i even knew you
Volcarona - funnily i think volc can reliably kill with qd hp rock while running max speed so speed tie and tech decides this kind of?


anyway there are a lot more important mons in oras but zards matchups feel shaky and dependent on set for itself, in a way that promotes player agency imo; i dont think its going to be overly constraining to build around while also being a good mon to build fresh teams with. also zardy is nice anti cheese which oras needs imo (as a sufferer of pokemon lactose intolerance) so i support this, yes it probably sucks to get flinched but i dont think zardy is even starting in s tier if it gets unbanned and blast burn is 90% accurate so there will be a good distribution of karma for those who believe

pro unban even for wc but if it doesnt by then would really like ogpl4 to test it as a part of the tier

 

[Elo Bandit]

fast sub (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 16 HP / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Substitute
Seismic Toss vs. 16 HP Charizard-Mega-Y: 100-100 (33.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


def sub (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 16 HP / 120 Def / 180 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Substitute
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 16 HP / 120 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


spdef sub (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 240 HP / 4 SpA / 80 SpD / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Substitute
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 240 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 306-360 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 240 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 282-332 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The combination of Substitute and Air Slash allow Charizard Y to bypass its most direct counters a majority of the time. Stone Edge and Head Smash have 80% accuracy. Slow choice band rock types need to land five attacks (one for each sub, plus one for the last 1 hp) and avoid the Air Slash flinch on turn 5.
.8 ^ 5 * .7 = 0.22937 = 22.94%
Sub Air Slash Charizard Y beats slow choiced Stone Edge users 77.06% of the time. If the opponent isn't choiced and doesn't need to land the fifth rock attack, their odds increase to .8 ^ 4 * .7 = 0.28672 = 28.67%.
Let's look at some higher accuracy rock attacks. Rock Slide is a viable option to hit Sub Charizard more reliably, in theory.
.9 ^ 5 * .7 = 0.41334 = 41.33%
Charizard Y is still winning an uncomfortable 58.67% of the time. Let's check again without a choice item (4 attacks vs subs): .9 ^ 4 * .7 = 0.45927 = 45.93%. Still losing for the rock type.
Let's go out of our way and run Rock Tomb with 95% accuracy.
.95 ^ 5 * .7 = 0.54165
The Rock Tomb user is finally winning a slim majority of the time. Let's add a perfect accuracy move to turn 5: .95 ^ 4 * .7 = 0.57015 = 57.02%
Even with every stop pulled out, slow rocks struggle to get barely better than coinflip odds vs Charizard Y. I will point out that fast rock attackers (Terrakion, Archeops, Mega Diancie, Mega Aerodactyl, Scarf Stone Edge Kyurem-B, DD Stone Edge Mega Gyarados) do beat Charizard Y 80% of the time, which is what most players are used to.
I'm kind of ignoring a lot of other things Charizard Y does and focusing on the fact that with minimal opportunity cost, Charizard Y is beating its most direct counters a majority of the time. Charizard Y is an unhealthy and uncomfortably RNG-based element in the metagame.

...many Stone Edge & Rock Slide users outspeed Charizard (some with scarf). The calculations don't tell the whole story, but they are a step less abstract than a rock png. I was mostly hoping to demonstrate the zard y problem being deeper than "run a rock type lol."

Charizard Y flinches through its checks, meaning the worse player can get bailed and win.
Charizard Y also misses its imperfect accuracy STABs, meaning that once again the worse player can get bailed and win.
The goal is 'to create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time...' Charizard Y does not fit with this philosophy.

My stance on excluding Charizard Y from ORAS hasn't changed much since both Charizard forms were banned. Mega Charizard Y warps the metagame around itself to an unhealthy degree and requires use of a handful of niche counters to avoid an otherwise uncomfortable level of RNG. Rock-type attacks are just not consistent enough to keep Charizard Y in check.

 

[crow crumbs]

Done with this tier for good

My patron saints of 1v1: Tapu Fini, gdarm icicle crash flinch, crucify

builder https://pokepast.es/39d902198bd60e4f

Only major actual metagame shifts to note from the past year~ is darm dropping and spect rising.

• Spectrier is more flexible than ever and lorb being the new mainset has invalidated a lot of historic counterplay (scale chomp, weak av mons).
• Band darm has just not aged that well with the tier. Zen can be strong but no one actually wants to run it and it usually sticks out like a sore thumb on preview. The mon just isnt flexible like it used to be. Guessing gdarm set has also become more comfortable as the meta has developed more and the holes created by each indivdual darm set get wider and wider.

Revaluations/other thoughts I've had:

• I grossly misunderstood kyurem for a while. I've always seen reliability as the best trait in ss and, while true that individual kyurem sets beats like 5 mons, kyurems effort input to tech stuff is incredibly low. Compare the effort it takes to make a kyurem beat tapu fini or zeraora vs a tyranitar teching those same mons. Kyurem's value is being able to run flagrant 3-0 fishes without having a complete brick preview.
• Garchomp definitely fell off to some degree but its still the most splashable ground, landot just looks better in comparison. Don't think there will ever be a point of 0 ground types in the very top tiers because zera is just so unbeatable without them. Would be like how banning the top 3 fairies would instantly propel azu to A+
• People tend to see Naganadel/Haxorus as mons that "ebb and flow" in viability and strictly perform based on how prepped for they are. I think these mons are Just Good since their counterplay is pretty limited to the archetype of statbomb tanks (or custap users for naga) like chople ursh, av landot, steela etc. that usually get run with stacked weaknesses to stall/encore abuser stuff (entei prim aroma koko etc).

Thank you to the fairy type and all the great people I've met.

 

[zo]

Done with this tier for good

My patron saints of 1v1: Tapu Fini, gdarm icicle crash flinch, crucify

builder https://pokepast.es/39d902198bd60e4f

View attachment 770104
Only major actual metagame shifts to note from the past year~ is darm dropping and spect rising.

• Spectrier is more flexible than ever and lorb being the new mainset has invalidated a lot of historic counterplay (scale chomp, weak av mons).
• Band darm has just not aged that well with the tier. Zen can be strong but no one actually wants to run it and it usually sticks out like a sore thumb on preview. The mon just isnt flexible like it used to be. Guessing gdarm set has also become more comfortable as the meta has developed more and the holes created by each indivdual darm set get wider and wider.

Revaluations/other thoughts I've had:

• I grossly misunderstood kyurem for a while. I've always seen reliability as the best trait in ss and, while true that individual kyurem sets beats like 5 mons, kyurems effort input to tech stuff is incredibly low. Compare the effort it takes to make a kyurem beat tapu fini or zeraora vs a tyranitar teching those same mons. Kyurem's value is being able to run flagrant 3-0 fishes without having a complete brick preview.
• Garchomp definitely fell off to some degree but its still the most splashable ground, landot just looks better in comparison. Don't think there will ever be a point of 0 ground types in the very top tiers because zera is just so unbeatable without them. Would be like how banning the top 3 fairies would instantly propel azu to A+
• People tend to see Naganadel/Haxorus as mons that "ebb and flow" in viability and strictly perform based on how prepped for they are. I think these mons are Just Good since their counterplay is pretty limited to the archetype of statbomb tanks (or custap users for naga) like chople ursh, av landot, steela etc. that usually get run with stacked weaknesses to stall/encore abuser stuff (entei prim aroma koko etc).

Thank you to the fairy type and all the great people I've met.

Good post. Agree with most of it, my top 3 is the exact same. See ya around

 

[LRXC]

Holy cow an ADV 1v1 VR Update! Yahoo!

also Marshmelto is on council now yay
Rises:

A to A+
A to A+
B+ to A-
B to B+
UR to C-
UR to C-
UR to C-

Drops

S- to A
A+ to A
A to A-
A to A-
A to A-
A to A-
A to A-
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
B+ to B
B+ to B
B+ to B
B+ to B
B to B-
B to B-
B to B-
B- to C
B- to C+
B- to C+
B- to C
B- to C
B- to C+
C+ to C-
C+ to C
C+ to C-
C to C-
C- to UR
C- to UR
C- to UR
C- to UR

 

[SEROO]

Quite a late post but I've finally found time to give my thoughts on the Zardy-Y unban.

Honestly reading through post above aren't changing my thoughts on this and a few are just reinforcing them.

Zardy-Y is a mon that can threaten quite a bit in the tier which can be scary but it can also be beaten by quite a lot of the tier being custap for blast burn, random hp rock/rock move or just endure strats. I think it'll be a good mon to force players to play around but not to the point where it's unhealthy as it realistically can only run a single set cough until me and part get our hands on it cough.

Finally ima just mention the whole "air slash" scenario. Just be good enough to not get flinched 5head that's mons i can just run a scarf togekiss and do the same shit.

Unban this mon, while it will most likely become top tier , I don't think that's a reason to be afraid of it as it has more checks than Zard-X.

 

[torterraxx]

Hello, I am here to go over recent ORAS resource updates! Firstly, we have heavily revamped the sets compendium, you can find the new compendium here: https://pokepast.es/d52571d3b29ecb61 , the explanations document can be found at the top of the compendium! I have listed the change log below. We are still actively working on the comp, but wanted to release a version of it before World Cup started. I would like to specifically shoutout pqs and Felucia for their immense help in this revamp, this wouldn't have been possible without you both! Thank you to everyone who helped and made comments about changes needed, we encourage everyone to give their opinions on the comp and ways we can make it better.

Changelog

Additions
--------------------------------------------------------
Bulky Ice Wind Gardevoir-Mega - credit to torterra
Defensive Custap Manaphy- credit to pqs
Bulky Offensive Mawile-Mega - credit to Felucia
Bulky Offensive Metagross-Mega - credit to Felucia
Fast Protect Metagross-Mega - credit to Felucia
Rocky Helmet Heatran - credit to torterra
Bulky Lopunny-Mega - credit to Felucia
Fast Choice Specs Genesect - credit to pqs
Bulky Gyarados-Mega - credit to pqs
Thunder Wave Gyarados-Mega - credit to pqs
Fast Choice Specs Kyurem-Black - credit to torterra
Defensive Cotton Guard Altaria-Mega - credit to pqs
Defensive Dragon Dance Altaria-Mega - credit to pqs
Endure Special Attacker Altaria-Mega - credit to pqs
Bulky Special Attacker Altaria-Mega - credit to pqs
Bulky Choice Specs Darkrai - credit to Felucia
Analytic Life Orb Magnezone - credit to Felucia
Assault Vest Magnezone - credit to Felucia
Offensive Semi-Stall Venusaur-Mega - credit to Felucia
Bulky Offensive Venusaur-Mega - credit to Felucia
Air Balloon Volcanion - credit to torterra
Life Orb Entei - credit to torterra
Bulky Offensive Blastoise-Mega - credit to torterra
Fast Offensive Blastoise-Mega - credit to torterra
Lum Berry Donphan - credit to torterra
Kee Berry Zapdos - credit to torterra
Curse Swampert-Mega - credit to torterra
Offensive Swampert-Mega - credit to torterra
Encore Semi-Stall Clefable- credit to pqs
Stall Porygon2 - credit to pqs
Choice Scarf Porygon2 - credit to pqs
Life Orb Keldeo - credit to torterra
Choice Scarf Keldeo - credit to torterra
Choice Scarf Cresselia - credit to torterra
Bulk Up Darmanitan - credit to torterra
Choice Scarf Darmanitan - credit to torterra
Bulky Medicham-Mega - credit to torterra
Bulky Offensive Camerupt-Mega - credit to Felucia
Specially Defensive Camerupt-Mega - credit to Felucia
Bulky Offensive Heracross-Mega- credit to RADU/torterra

Removals (mostly merged into other sets / remade completely)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Modest Icy Wind Gardevoir
Fast Wisp Gardevoir
Trick Room Gardevoir
Punishment Mawile
Anti-Band Chomp Burst Mawile
Standard Metagross
Fast Metagross
Bulky WP Victini
Bulky Choice Specs Kyurem-Black
HP Gyarados
Stall Altaria
Dragon Dance Altaria
Hyper Voice Altaria
Facade Altaria
Modest Specs Darkrai
SD Landorus-Therian
Standard Venusaur
Offensive Venusaur
Standard Blastoise
CounterCoat Swampert
Specially Defensive Heracross-Mega

Tweaks
---------------------------------------------------------------
Renamed Fast CM Gardevoir to Fast Bulky, added slashes.
Renamed Encore Disable Gardevoir to Protect Disable, modified moves
Custap Berry Manaphy EVs
Fast Stall Manaphy EVs
Renamed Spdf Taunt Mawile to Specially Defensive, added slashes
Weakness Policy Victini EVs
Combined Timid and Modest Specs Greninja, modified moves
Custap Berry Heatran EVs
Fast Mega Gyarados EVs and moves
Custap Berry Porygon-Z EVs
Choice Band Dragonite EVs
Choice Specs Dragonite EVs
Sub Petaya Volcarona EVs
Weakness Policy Aegislash EVs
Choice Band Garchomp moves and EVs
Fast Band Landorus-Therian EVs
Bulky Choice Band Landorus-Therian EVs
Custap Magnezone EVs
Physically Defensive Registeel EVs
SubSeed Serperior EVs
Choice Specs Sylveon EVs
Curse Venusaur EVs
Bulky Choice Specs Volcanion Moves and EVs
Custap Berry Sylveon EVs
Pressure Stall Entei EVs
Life Orb Landorus-I moves and EVs
Icy Wind Latias moves
Dragon Dance Tyranitar moves and EVs
Counter Tyranitar moves and EVs
Choice Specs Zapdos moves and EVs
Pressure Stall Zapdos moves and EVs
Custap Berry Zapdos moves and EVs
Offensive Manectric moves
Pressure Stall Raikou moves and EVs
Bulky Scizor EVs
Specially Defensive Mega Heracross EVs
Physically Defensive Mega Heracross EVs

We have also updated the VR, you can see the shifts below!

VR Shifts

Rises
B -> B+
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C -> C+
C- -> C
D -> C-

Drops
S -> S-
A+ -> A
B -> B-
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C -> C-
C- -> D
C- -> D
D -> UR
D -> UR

Lastly, we are actively voting on new sample teams, so new samples will be coming soon. Thank you everyone for playing our tier, see you in World Cup!

 

[Murm]

Mega Gyarados is now banned from LGPE 1v1! ​

Mega Gyarados was considered a healthy part of the metagame for a while. Its great Attack and bulk allowed it to naturally match up well into some of the best Pokemon in the tier, like Mega Aerodactyl with Waterfall and Mew with Crunch. Despite this, Mega Gyarados was one of the slowest viable Pokemon in the tier, only outspeeding Mega Venusaur and Alolan Muk for the high and mid tiers, and its weaknesses were quite exploitable because of this. Pokemon like Megahorn + Thunderbolt Mew and Rock Slide + Superpower Mega Pinsir, and even some low tiers like Thunder Punch Machamp could hit it super-effectively both pre- and post-mega while either outspeeding Mega Gyarados or taking its hits. Mega Venusaur and Zapdos also used their natural typings and great bulk and Special Attack to match up very well into it. However, the introduction of Thunder Wave into Mega Gyarados sets, while originally to help with Reflect Mega Pidgeot, proved to be an unhealthy force in the metagame, allowing Gyarados to outspeed and paraflinch most things in the metagame with Waterfall. Without the existence of EVs, Pokemon are frail enough to go down to two or three neutral Waterfalls from a Pokemon as strong as Mega Gyarados, meaning that the odds of Gyarados winning a matchup with Thunder Wave were much higher than you might think. Zapdos's immunity to Thunder Wave meant it was really the only reliable answer to Mega Gyarados, though Mega Venusaur's Waterfall resistance and high bulk gives it an honorable mention. The last moveslot was usually dedicated to moves like Taunt or Earthquake to help with Pokemon trying to boost their Defense like Defense Curl Snorlax and Acid Armor Alolan Muk, but some players even began to experiment with Headbutt for better paraflinch odds against Pokemon like Mega Venusaur and opposing Mega Gyarados. Ultimately, Mega Gyarados' ability to flinch its way out of almost any bad matchup proved to be too much for the tier, and we have elected to ban it.