Lower Tiers RBY UU Hub

[Theycallmephil]

HELLO RBY UU, its me im back.
Unfortunately my uucl season has come to an end. While this sucks for me its hopefully bittersweet for the readers cuz u get to enjoy this post before my focus shifts to rbypl stuff!!
Umms
Im gonna do my teamdump first
Then what im calling my final uucl vr

Without further ado
Week one
Game 1
()
(https://pokepast.es/490ada535be020e7)
I felt clefable was a pretty safe lead that my opp probably wasnt prepping for, unfortunately I had a medical emergency and this set ended up not happening but this was a fairly standard ground+gyarados idea that we'd see more of as the tour progressed
Game 2
()
(https://pokepast.es/bcb845012d2766bf)
Get used to seeing me use elecspam lol, this was my first take on it however and is kinda unpolished as a result. Theres plenty id change about this tour knowing what I do now. Tangela is a mon I honestly dont recommend using often so my willingness to use it w1 is interesting.
Game 3
()
(https://pokepast.es/12f7c36a7a62347e)
Noticed this was only my second normal of this entire week lol, this team simply aimed to use the fastest sleeper to gain an early advantage and then chip things into range for an agility sweep from dodo or raichu.

Week 2
Game 1
()
(https://pokepast.es/88b7b953410a9f72)
Yeah this team is pretty terrible, not rlly sure what I was thinking, obviously it drops hypno which is a pretty big nono, but it also relies on a rather inconsistent lead and is unbelievably frail. I dont like this team but looking back on it is still worth it.
Game 2
()
(https://pokepast.es/57d6a82b1c3a4908)
This team has a more normal idea, using dodo lead to force early damage and tangela to force sleep early by coming in on smth like dugtrio, raichu, buzz, etc.
I think for a tang team this holds up fine now.
Game 3
()
()
(https://pokepast.es/822dcaf466027f2c)
(https://pokepast.es/4091dbe6d056f5ce)
Idr which version i ended up bringing but here.

Week 3
Game 1
()
(https://pokepast.es/7100da37c5290e12)
First try bringing vic to a big stage, worked well.
Game 2
()
(https://pokepast.es/ef0c2902f55f459d)
I invented nidoking this week lol, never used by anyone else this tour idt and while I do think the mons pretty good its definitely awkward to build around.
Game 3
()
(https://pokepast.es/318cfb8cd4f5688a)
Lapless idea, idt its great

Week 4
Game 1
()
(https://pokepast.es/77b12c19c70aa283)
My first dragonite of the tour, smth clicked this week and my build quality improved alot idk.
Game 2
()
(https://pokepast.es/8ff7057b0b697a83)
Elecspam+golemgyara=good solid build.
I liked this one alot i think ive used it since
Game 3
()
(https://pokepast.es/a0032cb9ab0d8ea8)
About as close to Hyper offense as this tier gets lmao, i remember the scout was very weak to fastspam and moltres so I made uh..this thing.

Week 5 I played gsc lol

Week 6
Game 1
()
(https://pokepast.es/a6947d08f483c8a5)
Game 2
()
(https://pokepast.es/9c8cc0c555672b78)
I was sick of cray so I decided to use it to my own gain, beyond that fairly standard build.
Game 3
()
(https://pokepast.es/83e1e0fe9bb1f980)
Big idea here was that clef lead can make some teams slow, but i still wanted an electric. This brought me electabuzz in back which is very rare and I may be alone in doing that but to this point of the tour

Week 7
Game 1
()
(https://pokepast.es/cad53a52721122cf)
To the recommendation of my testing buddy apple i decided to bring out rapidash on a pretty cool agility spam double fire build.
Game 2
()
(https://pokepast.es/3317f4757732309b)
I actually really love this team, its gyaragolem again which works rlly well tbh, has kang and persian for consistent normal damage. Also it was me trying out persian lead which I do think has a place lol
Game 3
()
(https://pokepast.es/6f0d939e27d5beb3)
Pretty normal dugtrio team idk

Next my vr

I settled on this as the final version.
Not gonna break down every mon but few highlights.


Entire lead meta and most early game lines for alot of games revolve around this pokemon, its consistently threatening with great coverage and power. This belongs in A


I think this mon is just a bit overrated, not because its bad but the stuff above it is definitely more meta warping/has a much higher ceiling so I truly cant justify it higher than this.


I was wrong these are not NU mons and most certainly deserve to stay in UU lol


Building with this mon is not only nearly impossible its also just rarely worth it.
The mon has matchups where its good but its usually just a crit me not fake check to stuff. Slower than even golem is gross.


This guy is rlly solid and definitely needs to rise to UU. I love this mon glad I had a part in its Renaissance.


Yes it is an entire tier above lapras


We owe this mon an apology its like genuinely kinda solid lmao

Im too tired to do more, goodnight rby uu.

 

[ThatOneApple]

Tbh I know I only posted a VR a few weeks ago but more UUCL games made me rethink some of this so I figured I'd update and explain whats changed.

Changes

A2 (#7) -> A1 (#3)
Yknow whats nice? A nice and bulky hit taker who spreads para and hits pretty hard. Super slappable even on more offensive structures as Agility sets offer a nice mixup that can help break teams down for another Agility mon in the back.


A1 (#6) -> A2 (#8)
Imo this thing is kinda crummy to get reliable progress out of because of how weak it is compared to the stuff in A1, not bad by any stretch of the imagination but doesnt offer as consistent value to me.


B1 (#11) -> A2 (#9)
Rather annoying mon between Hypnosis, Night Shade, Thunderbolt, and its decent ability to take special hits


A2 (#10) -> B1 (#11)
Yknow what isnt nice? Doing almost nothing to Dragonite and doing very little to Lapras, similar issues to Persian really.


B1 (#14) -> B2 (#19)
This thing feels functionally similar to Golem where its kinda difficult to actually use when its not coming in on what its checking. The upside is that its pretty much always gonna see a Hypno, the downside is that it can almost never use any of its other qualities because its either getting slept or paralyzed before getting the crap kicked out of it. Also if its Rest Hypno then this thing is even harder to get use out of.


B2 (#16) -> B1(#13)
Evil Normal who beats you up and spreads para good.


C1 (#21) -> B2 (#18)
This thing is kinda nutty if used right. Hide it till Lapras is dead or super chipped and it goes ham, ofc this means it only fits on certain structures but the upsides are worth it if you can get it to work.


B2 (#19) -> C1 (#21)
When Agility Moltres and Articuno are taking off, you've gotta have some really good upsides to make up for them getting in easily on you. Unfortunately, unlike Vic, Tang just doesnt have that. It doesnt outspeed Hypno nor does it have a good Stab to actually dent Lapras, so it even if it can switch into Raichu reliably, its kinda useless after the initial Sleep Powder most of the time.

 

[Wanted in 49 States]

There is going to be suspect on confusion in UU before RBYPL starts. The ban will target Confuse Ray as well as Supersonic for tiering policy reasons. The voting list is mostly finalized and is waiting for the next round of the RoA Spotlight to be posted next week. Once the list is finalized, voters will get a ping and a DM for the suspect vote. In the meantime, this is time to make arguments on whether you think confusion should stay or leave the tier.

 

[Melbelle]

cray stoopid

 

[Maris Bonibell]

literally you can just load ninetales into haunter without using confuse ray the mon will still be viable in the lead slot, u can genuinely just spam fire blast and your odds to come out on top arent terrible, truly it doesnt need this move to be good and if anything it serves to add rng to more decisively bad matchups(gyarados dragonite)

 

[Theycallmephil]

Literally no reason to keep this move ngl.
Any "positives" are actually just blurring the lines for pokemons good and bad matchups i.e ninetales vs haunter/dnite or magmar vs porygon in pu as another example. Forcing lapras to not run this move also stands to be pretty positive imo for what thats worth.
This move is inherent 50/50s and odds are the pokemon using them remain viable without them pretty easily.
I hope sincerely that we send this move to hell.
Also watch this bullshit lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1uu-2432393715-h6pfp2k7bvcym672ywyalqrnt1puonwpw

 

[ThatOneApple]

But… but muh cheese ….

 

[LHF]

In the meantime, this is time to make arguments on whether you think confusion should stay or leave the tier.

If even a single person suggests that confusion should stay in the tier(or any of RBY's LTs), I suggest that they also be voted on in the suspect test too.

Can't thank everyone enough for making sure this happens before RBYPL

 

[Teh]

confuse ray sucks and it should be killed

 

[Maris Bonibell]

here's my vr ---- will try to write this all rn

yapping

1) hypno

3hko'd at best by anything outside of kang/dodo slam into hbeam, very good at being an obstacle despite not winning that many 1v1s in lastmon scenarios, make sure to use this guy as much as possible early in a game. Very dominant matchup vs lapras between sleep, only being 3hko'd by blizzard sometimes + possible special drops making it even more favorable for hypno. think you might argue for dropping this guy ONLY for an agility user on your team and nothing else, it doesnt dominate in many matchups but it has a fairly good floor for almost all of them. I think only the 3 birds (articuno moltres dodrio) come out of the matchup with enough leverage to go beyond 1 for 1 with it , and ill admit hypno vs the birds was always scary for me as the hypno user. Sleep is evidently very strong because of the bulk and powerful followups of thunder wave and psychic that hypno has available. single handedly hurts the viability of every electric type in this tier, the electrode tbolt calc on hypno is depressing
(Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Hypno: 81-96 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO)

i consider rest and seismic toss to be about equally reasonable moves to load on hypno. dropping hypnosis is feasible, but hypno sleep on lapras is a very dominant entry point and likely shouldnt be given up easily. dropping seismic toss makes slowbro a complete nightmare for it though, so thread REALLY carefully if you do. even if hypno can't beat slowbro by itself ever it can force a rest and that's often good enough to get it sleeping at +2 where thunderbolt users have decent odds to beat it

2) lapras

begrudingly ranking this in #2, could honestly put her in #3. Lapras is clearly the worse out of the 2 between it and hypno. it has higher overall bulk and can freely enter on predicted blizzards from kang/nite, but VERY weak to anything hypno can do, which brings it down a LOT for me, maybe even down enough to #3. Very good pokemon to load as slowbro insurance and its existence keeps dodrio and dragonite rather limited as revenge killers, as it can force them out with the threat of ohko + sing option easily. very droppable for something faster or a different defensive profile, i and other players had decent success with lapless teams.

body slam and confuse ray are both solid 4td move options. i prefer body slam since paralysis sticks after switching and it can cripple electrics switching in aand is a 100% accuracy option that dugtrio is not immune to. psychic might make sense for haunter, but otherwise worse given special drops also wear off after switching out. i can see rest lapras being viable if used on an opponent sleeping pokemon combined with confuse ray or sing for example, but the lack of thunder wave makes rest a lot worse for lapras than it is for hypno and slowbro. sing probably shouldnt be dropped on a pokemon with this much bulk, but i could consider it. surf + blizzard has a chance to 2hko ninetales and is a 100% accuracy move for dugtrio that will actually ohko it, but doesnt offer much beyond that.

3) kangaskhan

this is the pokemon i actually want to rank at #2 but still settled on lapras at #2. arguably better meta for kang to go beyond 1 for 1 since the 2 mons above it are slower and easily fold to critical hits. body slam + coverage has no real switchins outside of lapras who will be too slow and weak to do anything else after trading with it. It's a little too weak to reliably break slowbro, but can generally do something to anything and is a huge boon for keeping dragonite in check. rock slide is a real option in a meta where the birds are looking strong but hard to drop blizzard or earthquake. counter is amazing value in the mirror and can allow kang to keep a lot of hp to go far beyond 1 for 1. this feels like the revenge killer of choice in this meta and not running it made games feel awkward for me.

4) dragonite

great insurance against unknown mons that may threaten to run away with the game, and works to equalize your matchup. Switches into fires, shuts down grasses, can thunder wave persian haunter and electrics to neuter them, can load thunderbolt for threatening slowbro and to chip lapras and gyarados, ground immunity for dugtrio and golem. With body slam + hyper beam even has a great 1v1 matchup into hypno. being forced out by kangaskhan(even blizzless) gyarados, and lapras so easily keeps it from being better. Agility is a worthwhile consideration for dragonite maybe going beyond 1 for 1 and making additional progress. not bad as a lead in the slightest with the bulk and thunder wave + agility. 80 speed is somewhat lackluster however, although dragonite's paralysis spreading keeps it from depending too much on speedy teammates.

5) dodrio

lapras keeps dodrio from being too good as a revenge killer, although the 100 speed benchmark is very nice for dealing with raichu , haunter and ninetales. sacrificing itself for 42-50% on lapras or more with a critical hit hyper beam is sometimes worthwhile, depending on the presence of teammates lapras is a problem for. good role compression of speed control, physical power and a frail earthquake switchin. the existence of golem definitely keeps some teammates such as electabuzz and haunter as greedier pairings. The default 4 moves are plenty good for it, though i can see substitute over drill peck to set up on a pokemon getting sleep sacked, substitute + agility could steal an endgame.

6) persian

I ranked this as "mid" in my speculative VR and i was WAY too off with that take. Outside of haunter , a persian at full hp is extremely forcing onto a team. Excellent partner for dugtrio , since they both force damage on dragonite and lapras. Slash tbolt and bubblebeam are all likely mandatory, but body slam/hyper beam are all very good options for a 4th, hyper beam particularly relevant for the dodrio 1v1. Substitute and growl both have use cases for sacks and for tanking kangaskhan hyper beam respectively. The 3hko on Slowbro regardless of amnesia boosts is quite nice, matchup wise.

7) raichu

stellar matchup into lapras and slowbro, while having thunder wave and surf to completely have a free ko into golem and threaten dugtrio on entry. the hypno matchup is still tough and prevents it from sweeping too much, but can work well enough as an enabler with a decent hyper beam to leave it low. i have been calling this pokemon the goat since week 1 of uucl and it still holds up and will continue to hold up if ppl insist that dugtrio is not good and dont run it. does have a highly chronic case of 4 move syndrome. id argue thunderbolt is the only mandatory move, but surf is obviously "necessary" for golem and helpful w fires and dug, body slam has a chance to disable dugtrio on entry, seismic toss does consistent damage to grasses and electrics, hyper beam picks off electrics and hypno when they get low, agility can enable a possible sweep. its very hard to have all of the moves you want in one game. Thunder is worth loading if you want to ohko dodrio guaranteed(Raichu Thunder vs. Dodrio: 331-390 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
as an aside it was weird to hear one or two people call raichu weak when it has the highest attack and special attack of both electric types btw, this is not an issue unique to just raichu, all the electrics struggle w hypno like this

8) dugtrio

this will often be the fastest pokemon in a set. getting ohko'd by lapras obviously is dicy, but being able to switch into electric types directly and immediately reverse momentum with up to 90% damage in return and a guaranteed ohko on haunter with its high critrate make it unexpectedly dangerous even with lapras and kangaskhan around. somewhat prediction reliant once ground immune pokemon enter the picture, but it is very difficult to build a team without a mon that gets ohko'd or 2hko'd by dugtrio. Hypno , persian and dodrio in particular all are 3hko'd and slower, leaving them one crit away from losing to it, and being the fastest mon it will usually get another hit right after. the thunder wave immunity also keeps a lot of opportunities open for switching around thunder wave and allowing teammates safe entry. remember that dugtrio doesnt have to sweep to be useful, since it tends to force damage on flyers and lapras it can simply go for damage and attempt to crit them out for something else to win. not a bad pokemon to trade for damage on slowbro either, since surf doesnt ohko either.(Slowbro Surf vs. Dugtrio: 224-264 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) Fortunately for it, aerodactyl and tangela are both very rare, because this pokemon would be very annoying to use if it had to deal with either one of these every game.

Sand attack is kind of a toxic 4th and im not sure how to feel about it, but being the fastest twave immune with substitute almost always is very forcing

9) haunter

pretty situational sleeper as a lead, since haunter's followups to hypnosis are not as potent and haunter has a LOT to lose from missing sleep into a faster pokemon. it is very difficult to get it to absorb sleep instead of getting ko'd outright, and it performs much better in the back switching into pokemon that wont immediately thunder wave it if it misses. id say haunter + dragonite is a fairly robust defensive pairing since it prevents dugtrio and persian from simply piling damage together on dragonite. gyarados + haunter could also work, but that makes the matchup into electrics too difficult to handle imo. the normal immunity forces less broad clicks to finish it off and that can allow for precise pivoting. persian is the obvious pokemon you'd aim to check with haunter, but it is handy to have for the birds and dragonite as well.

night shade is a great click for the consistent damage on hypno and dugtrio , but the lack of psychic leaves golem very safe to simply come in and force it out or ohko it for little risk.

10) gyarados

i see this as a more specialized , worse dragonite that beats itself. they have the same special, but gyarados trades thunder wave off for water stab. tends to come out with more hp than dragonite vs enemy fires due to actually having access to stab moves. the weakness to thunderbolt REALLY keeps it down though, much worse than dragonite's blizzard weakness. not bad at all for trading itself for lapras , however, since it is 2hko'd instead of ohko'd unlike dragonite. Hydro pump grabs the 2hko on persian and kangaskhan which are important ranges, but hyper beam does pretty high damage to hypno

11) electabuzz

still a fairly reliable neutral lead. although ninetales is more favored into it's good matchups in the lead slots, electabuzz is harder to switch around, imo -- dugtrio coming in t1 is a nearly free dragonite or lapras entry point, and hypno is allowing itself to take status and damage. more consistent into haunter than raichu due to having psychic, and the 5 points of speed make dodrio a lot more comfortable matchup for it in lead. frankly quite underexplored in back --- electabuzz has access to counter, for example. it's very strange to rank a pokemon that essentially only sees use in the lead slot and not much of elsewhere, but it's still a very common lead by far, so this spot feels correct for it.

12) clefable

speed tying lapras is a bit unfortunate for clefable's speed tier, but access to sing and strong boltbeam coverage make this quite a strong leadmon and backmon alike. much like with hypno, only the birds aren't deeply crippled by thunder wave + it attacking every turn. being slower than kang prevents this from being any kind of revenge killer, but forces persian out far more effectively than kangaskhan is able to. sing might be worth fitting in the lead slot sometimes, and honestly one of the better leads into lead electabuzz . im a fan of body slamming into hyper beam range without twaving first, since buzz is rather frail

13) golem

truly thought this pokemon was unviable with lapras in the tier, and it still needs to be played rather carefully to do anything, but boom + switching into haunter , dodrio and buzz give it a niche as an anti-lead and in the back. as with most pokemon below speed 90, kangaskhan is the biggest problem for it, though the crippling weakness to raichu also keeps it so down for me. not bad for pivoting around persian, as the persian user has to fear boom from golem so predicting with slash > bubblebeam isnt free. does really high, consistent damage, but is punished a lot worse for wrong predictions than dugtrio due to the lower speed. DO NOT BE TOO PATIENT WITH THIS GUY AND USE HIM EARLY! YOU WILL REGRET SAVING HIM FOR YOUR LAST IN MOST GAMES

14) slowbro

#14 feels like a weird rank to put slowbro in, given it can do absolutely terrible in one game and completely win in others. hypno and lapras both limit its progress and every pokemon above it can keep it down with thunderbolt, critical hits or explosion. The defensive value it offers is very well rounded though, being able to stomach hits from psychics, both of the birds , and most physical attackers. It is much better at resting than lapras due to amnesia and being able to spread paralysis with thunder wave. It definitely appreciates protection from thunderbolt clickers since they threaten to do the most with a critical hit through amnesia, so partners like dugtrio and raichu do well to protect it while slowbro covers for physical attackers. hypno is an excellent partner too, given it and slowbro are both excellent paralysis spreaders and paralysis abusers.

surf and psychic both have their perks: raw surf will ohko golem so it doesnt feel comfortable going for eq into explosion, which will leave slowbro too low to heal back up, and does more damage to hypno and dugtrio raw and at +2. psychic meanwhile will ohko haunter at +2, and will do more damage to lapras and gyarados, and the threat of special drops can further threaten opposing slowbro and drop hypno despite the resistance. No disrespect to the people trying amnesialess slowbro or seismic toss, but i think its better to embrace that slowbro's strengths come from it playing like no other pokemon in rby uu than trying to make it play like a bulky thunder wave attacker: we already have hypno, dragonite and clefable who in my opinion all are more splashable in that role

15-16) rapidash and ninetales

pretty solid contenders for neutral leads. im not sure if rapidash or ninetales has the more consistent matchup vs electabuzz, but i prefer rapidash for getting a chance to burn or crit ohko dodrio before it attacks. they're both decent enough for switching into lapras and dealing some damage back, though ninetales hits for more damage with fire stab. i didnt use either of these guys in the back but they may be worth experimenting with, i definitely felt somewhat threatened by it in some games. somewhat freely allow slowbro free setup though.

17-18) moltres and articuno

genuinely thought articuno was soon to the NU for next vr cycle, but i was rather impressed with how well it performed during uucl. it is not hard at all to force damage on lapras with dodrio, dragonite, moltres, persian, or dugtrio for it to sweep later, and preserving lapras after taking any damage can be difficult for the player without giving up something else. these two also have great 1v1 matchups into hypno itself, and i shouldve used these two more during my stint in the tour.

19) tangela

i still think this has merit to run even with lapras and hypno everywhere , but the recent bird spam has kept me hesitant. very safe entry points on the most common lead(electabuzz) , dugtrio , golem and all electrics means it will often find opportunities to land sleep. i will need to experiment more with this to have much meaningful to say but i feel it has a lot of potential.

20) electrode

think this is the most likely electric to drop to NU, but explosion and the possibility of trading itself with dugtrio absolutely keeps a valuable niche for it within this tier. having all of the issues of elecs(walled by tangela) but also being blanked utterly by golem and doing little damage to hypno with thunderbolt exarcebates the usual issues. very helpful against persian though.

the pokemon ranked C and below I did not think about the order as much

22) kadabra

didnt think this would drop to NU this cycle , i thought being limited by hypno wasnt that bad, as the combination of speed and damage with psychic, but the terrible dugtrio and persian matchup + being COMPLETE setup fodder for slowbro holds this back a lot for me. it cant even switch into much. sorry man

23) aerodactyl

huge problems with golem and haunter, and also lacks in damage a little into lapras and dragonite, but completely neuters dug, and can do things to kangaskhan and dodrio with switching into their hyper beams directly.

24) victreebel

i dont feel safe clicking powders vs hypno and lapras with this thing. 25% chance to just fumble and immediately be punished and die. it can go for the safe clicks on electrics, but at that point why not use tangela?

25) nidoking

ground type that isnt checked by the usual dugtrio and golem checks, and can directly switch it on dragonite twave and force it out with blizzard. even has thunderbolt for slowbro! great damage on hypno too. kangaskhan and moltres are both huge problems for it though.

26) tentacruel

pretty great against kangaskhan and fires, and if lapras is dropped more often this will be easier to use. slowbro is still a huge issue for this though, depending on which move it is loading. swords dance does help it not being complete fodder for it

27) raticate

super fang means it can get pretty high damage on lapras and keep slowbro down. super fang works on haunter! 97 is a bit awkward as a speed tier with how FRAIL this is though.

28) scyther

it's 105 speed with swords dance, i think of this as a dodrio that can attempt to win games

29) mr mime

psychic time with thunderbolt to actually pressure slowbro, i suppose?

30) kabutops

unlike omastar, doesnt have the issue of doing no damage to lapras and hypno, but does hate haunter a whole lot. use submission for lapras

omastar dewgong vaporeon

omastar in theory has more of a niche than the other two listed here but they are going to drop to NU. i dont see why youd run this alongside lapras or over lapras when slowbro and gyarados are more versatile

 

[LHF]

View attachment 772848
here's my vr ---- will try to write this all rn

yapping

1) hypno

3hko'd at best by anything outside of kang/dodo slam into hbeam, very good at being an obstacle despite not winning that many 1v1s in lastmon scenarios, make sure to use this guy as much as possible early in a game. Very dominant matchup vs lapras between sleep, only being 3hko'd by blizzard sometimes + possible special drops making it even more favorable for hypno. think you might argue for dropping this guy ONLY for an agility user on your team and nothing else, it doesnt dominate in many matchups but it has a fairly good floor for almost all of them. I think only the 3 birds (articuno moltres dodrio) come out of the matchup with enough leverage to go beyond 1 for 1 with it , and ill admit hypno vs the birds was always scary for me as the hypno user. Sleep is evidently very strong because of the bulk and powerful followups of thunder wave and psychic that hypno has available. single handedly hurts the viability of every electric type in this tier, the electrode tbolt calc on hypno is depressing
(Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Hypno: 81-96 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO)

i consider rest and seismic toss to be about equally reasonable moves to load on hypno. dropping hypnosis is feasible, but hypno sleep on lapras is a very dominant entry point and likely shouldnt be given up easily. dropping seismic toss makes slowbro a complete nightmare for it though, so thread REALLY carefully if you do. even if hypno can't beat slowbro by itself ever it can force a rest and that's often good enough to get it sleeping at +2 where thunderbolt users have decent odds to beat it

2) lapras

begrudingly ranking this in #2, could honestly put her in #3. Lapras is clearly the worse out of the 2 between it and hypno. it has higher overall bulk and can freely enter on predicted blizzards from kang/nite, but VERY weak to anything hypno can do, which brings it down a LOT for me, maybe even down enough to #3. Very good pokemon to load as slowbro insurance and its existence keeps dodrio and dragonite rather limited as revenge killers, as it can force them out with the threat of ohko + sing option easily. very droppable for something faster or a different defensive profile, i and other players had decent success with lapless teams.

body slam and confuse ray are both solid 4td move options. i prefer body slam since paralysis sticks after switching and it can cripple electrics switching in aand is a 100% accuracy option that dugtrio is not immune to. psychic might make sense for haunter, but otherwise worse given special drops also wear off after switching out. i can see rest lapras being viable if used on an opponent sleeping pokemon combined with confuse ray or sing for example, but the lack of thunder wave makes rest a lot worse for lapras than it is for hypno and slowbro. sing probably shouldnt be dropped on a pokemon with this much bulk, but i could consider it. surf + blizzard has a chance to 2hko ninetales and is a 100% accuracy move for dugtrio that will actually ohko it, but doesnt offer much beyond that.

3) kangaskhan

this is the pokemon i actually want to rank at #2 but still settled on lapras at #2. arguably better meta for kang to go beyond 1 for 1 since the 2 mons above it are slower and easily fold to critical hits. body slam + coverage has no real switchins outside of lapras who will be too slow and weak to do anything else after trading with it. It's a little too weak to reliably break slowbro, but can generally do something to anything and is a huge boon for keeping dragonite in check. rock slide is a real option in a meta where the birds are looking strong but hard to drop blizzard or earthquake. counter is amazing value in the mirror and can allow kang to keep a lot of hp to go far beyond 1 for 1. this feels like the revenge killer of choice in this meta and not running it made games feel awkward for me.

4) dragonite

great insurance against unknown mons that may threaten to run away with the game, and works to equalize your matchup. Switches into fires, shuts down grasses, can thunder wave persian haunter and electrics to neuter them, can load thunderbolt for threatening slowbro and to chip lapras and gyarados, ground immunity for dugtrio and golem. With body slam + hyper beam even has a great 1v1 matchup into hypno. being forced out by kangaskhan(even blizzless) gyarados, and lapras so easily keeps it from being better. Agility is a worthwhile consideration for dragonite maybe going beyond 1 for 1 and making additional progress. not bad as a lead in the slightest with the bulk and thunder wave + agility. 80 speed is somewhat lackluster however, although dragonite's paralysis spreading keeps it from depending too much on speedy teammates.

5) dodrio

lapras keeps dodrio from being too good as a revenge killer, although the 100 speed benchmark is very nice for dealing with raichu , haunter and ninetales. sacrificing itself for 42-50% on lapras or more with a critical hit hyper beam is sometimes worthwhile, depending on the presence of teammates lapras is a problem for. good role compression of speed control, physical power and a frail earthquake switchin. the existence of golem definitely keeps some teammates such as electabuzz and haunter as greedier pairings. The default 4 moves are plenty good for it, though i can see substitute over drill peck to set up on a pokemon getting sleep sacked, substitute + agility could steal an endgame.

6) persian

I ranked this as "mid" in my speculative VR and i was WAY too off with that take. Outside of haunter , a persian at full hp is extremely forcing onto a team. Excellent partner for dugtrio , since they both force damage on dragonite and lapras. Slash tbolt and bubblebeam are all likely mandatory, but body slam/hyper beam are all very good options for a 4th, hyper beam particularly relevant for the dodrio 1v1. Substitute and growl both have use cases for sacks and for tanking kangaskhan hyper beam respectively. The 3hko on Slowbro regardless of amnesia boosts is quite nice, matchup wise.

7) raichu

stellar matchup into lapras and slowbro, while having thunder wave and surf to completely have a free ko into golem and threaten dugtrio on entry. the hypno matchup is still tough and prevents it from sweeping too much, but can work well enough as an enabler with a decent hyper beam to leave it low. i have been calling this pokemon the goat since week 1 of uucl and it still holds up and will continue to hold up if ppl insist that dugtrio is not good and dont run it. does have a highly chronic case of 4 move syndrome. id argue thunderbolt is the only mandatory move, but surf is obviously "necessary" for golem and helpful w fires and dug, body slam has a chance to disable dugtrio on entry, seismic toss does consistent damage to grasses and electrics, hyper beam picks off electrics and hypno when they get low, agility can enable a possible sweep. its very hard to have all of the moves you want in one game. Thunder is worth loading if you want to ohko dodrio guaranteed(Raichu Thunder vs. Dodrio: 331-390 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
as an aside it was weird to hear one or two people call raichu weak when it has the highest attack and special attack of both electric types btw, this is not an issue unique to just raichu, all the electrics struggle w hypno like this

8) dugtrio

this will often be the fastest pokemon in a set. getting ohko'd by lapras obviously is dicy, but being able to switch into electric types directly and immediately reverse momentum with up to 90% damage in return and a guaranteed ohko on haunter with its high critrate make it unexpectedly dangerous even with lapras and kangaskhan around. somewhat prediction reliant once ground immune pokemon enter the picture, but it is very difficult to build a team without a mon that gets ohko'd or 2hko'd by dugtrio. Hypno , persian and dodrio in particular all are 3hko'd and slower, leaving them one crit away from losing to it, and being the fastest mon it will usually get another hit right after. the thunder wave immunity also keeps a lot of opportunities open for switching around thunder wave and allowing teammates safe entry. remember that dugtrio doesnt have to sweep to be useful, since it tends to force damage on flyers and lapras it can simply go for damage and attempt to crit them out for something else to win. not a bad pokemon to trade for damage on slowbro either, since surf doesnt ohko either.(Slowbro Surf vs. Dugtrio: 224-264 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) Fortunately for it, aerodactyl and tangela are both very rare, because this pokemon would be very annoying to use if it had to deal with either one of these every game.

Sand attack is kind of a toxic 4th and im not sure how to feel about it, but being the fastest twave immune with substitute almost always is very forcing

9) haunter

pretty situational sleeper as a lead, since haunter's followups to hypnosis are not as potent and haunter has a LOT to lose from missing sleep into a faster pokemon. it is very difficult to get it to absorb sleep instead of getting ko'd outright, and it performs much better in the back switching into pokemon that wont immediately thunder wave it if it misses. id say haunter + dragonite is a fairly robust defensive pairing since it prevents dugtrio and persian from simply piling damage together on dragonite. gyarados + haunter could also work, but that makes the matchup into electrics too difficult to handle imo. the normal immunity forces less broad clicks to finish it off and that can allow for precise pivoting. persian is the obvious pokemon you'd aim to check with haunter, but it is handy to have for the birds and dragonite as well.

night shade is a great click for the consistent damage on hypno and dugtrio , but the lack of psychic leaves golem very safe to simply come in and force it out or ohko it for little risk.

10) gyarados

i see this as a more specialized , worse dragonite that beats itself. they have the same special, but gyarados trades thunder wave off for water stab. tends to come out with more hp than dragonite vs enemy fires due to actually having access to stab moves. the weakness to thunderbolt REALLY keeps it down though, much worse than dragonite's blizzard weakness. not bad at all for trading itself for lapras , however, since it is 2hko'd instead of ohko'd unlike dragonite. Hydro pump grabs the 2hko on persian and kangaskhan which are important ranges, but hyper beam does pretty high damage to hypno

11) electabuzz

still a fairly reliable neutral lead. although ninetales is more favored into it's good matchups in the lead slots, electabuzz is harder to switch around, imo -- dugtrio coming in t1 is a nearly free dragonite or lapras entry point, and hypno is allowing itself to take status and damage. more consistent into haunter than raichu due to having psychic, and the 5 points of speed make dodrio a lot more comfortable matchup for it in lead. frankly quite underexplored in back --- electabuzz has access to counter, for example. it's very strange to rank a pokemon that essentially only sees use in the lead slot and not much of elsewhere, but it's still a very common lead by far, so this spot feels correct for it.

12) clefable

speed tying lapras is a bit unfortunate for clefable's speed tier, but access to sing and strong boltbeam coverage make this quite a strong leadmon and backmon alike. much like with hypno, only the birds aren't deeply crippled by thunder wave + it attacking every turn. being slower than kang prevents this from being any kind of revenge killer, but forces persian out far more effectively than kangaskhan is able to. sing might be worth fitting in the lead slot sometimes, and honestly one of the better leads into lead electabuzz . im a fan of body slamming into hyper beam range without twaving first, since buzz is rather frail

13) golem

truly thought this pokemon was unviable with lapras in the tier, and it still needs to be played rather carefully to do anything, but boom + switching into haunter , dodrio and buzz give it a niche as an anti-lead and in the back. as with most pokemon below speed 90, kangaskhan is the biggest problem for it, though the crippling weakness to raichu also keeps it so down for me. not bad for pivoting around persian, as the persian user has to fear boom from golem so predicting with slash > bubblebeam isnt free. does really high, consistent damage, but is punished a lot worse for wrong predictions than dugtrio due to the lower speed. DO NOT BE TOO PATIENT WITH THIS GUY AND USE HIM EARLY! YOU WILL REGRET SAVING HIM FOR YOUR LAST IN MOST GAMES

14) slowbro

#14 feels like a weird rank to put slowbro in, given it can do absolutely terrible in one game and completely win in others. hypno and lapras both limit its progress and every pokemon above it can keep it down with thunderbolt, critical hits or explosion. The defensive value it offers is very well rounded though, being able to stomach hits from psychics, both of the birds , and most physical attackers. It is much better at resting than lapras due to amnesia and being able to spread paralysis with thunder wave. It definitely appreciates protection from thunderbolt clickers since they threaten to do the most with a critical hit through amnesia, so partners like dugtrio and raichu do well to protect it while slowbro covers for physical attackers. hypno is an excellent partner too, given it and slowbro are both excellent paralysis spreaders and paralysis abusers.

surf and psychic both have their perks: raw surf will ohko golem so it doesnt feel comfortable going for eq into explosion, which will leave slowbro too low to heal back up, and does more damage to hypno and dugtrio raw and at +2. psychic meanwhile will ohko haunter at +2, and will do more damage to lapras and gyarados, and the threat of special drops can further threaten opposing slowbro and drop hypno despite the resistance. No disrespect to the people trying amnesialess slowbro or seismic toss, but i think its better to embrace that slowbro's strengths come from it playing like no other pokemon in rby uu than trying to make it play like a bulky thunder wave attacker: we already have hypno, dragonite and clefable who in my opinion all are more splashable in that role

15-16) rapidash and ninetales

pretty solid contenders for neutral leads. im not sure if rapidash or ninetales has the more consistent matchup vs electabuzz, but i prefer rapidash for getting a chance to burn or crit ohko dodrio before it attacks. they're both decent enough for switching into lapras and dealing some damage back, though ninetales hits for more damage with fire stab. i didnt use either of these guys in the back but they may be worth experimenting with, i definitely felt somewhat threatened by it in some games. somewhat freely allow slowbro free setup though.

17-18) moltres and articuno

genuinely thought articuno was soon to the NU for next vr cycle, but i was rather impressed with how well it performed during uucl. it is not hard at all to force damage on lapras with dodrio, dragonite, moltres, persian, or dugtrio for it to sweep later, and preserving lapras after taking any damage can be difficult for the player without giving up something else. these two also have great 1v1 matchups into hypno itself, and i shouldve used these two more during my stint in the tour.

19) tangela

i still think this has merit to run even with lapras and hypno everywhere , but the recent bird spam has kept me hesitant. very safe entry points on the most common lead(electabuzz) , dugtrio , golem and all electrics means it will often find opportunities to land sleep. i will need to experiment more with this to have much meaningful to say but i feel it has a lot of potential.

20) electrode

think this is the most likely electric to drop to NU, but explosion and the possibility of trading itself with dugtrio absolutely keeps a valuable niche for it within this tier. having all of the issues of elecs(walled by tangela) but also being blanked utterly by golem and doing little damage to hypno with thunderbolt exarcebates the usual issues. very helpful against persian though.

the pokemon ranked C and below I did not think about the order as much

22) kadabra

didnt think this would drop to NU this cycle , i thought being limited by hypno wasnt that bad, as the combination of speed and damage with psychic, but the terrible dugtrio and persian matchup + being COMPLETE setup fodder for slowbro holds this back a lot for me. it cant even switch into much. sorry man

23) aerodactyl

huge problems with golem and haunter, and also lacks in damage a little into lapras and dragonite, but completely neuters dug, and can do things to kangaskhan and dodrio with switching into their hyper beams directly.

24) victreebel

i dont feel safe clicking powders vs hypno and lapras with this thing. 25% chance to just fumble and immediately be punished and die. it can go for the safe clicks on electrics, but at that point why not use tangela?

25) nidoking

ground type that isnt checked by the usual dugtrio and golem checks, and can directly switch it on dragonite twave and force it out with blizzard. even has thunderbolt for slowbro! great damage on hypno too. kangaskhan and moltres are both huge problems for it though.

26) tentacruel

pretty great against kangaskhan and fires, and if lapras is dropped more often this will be easier to use. slowbro is still a huge issue for this though, depending on which move it is loading. swords dance does help it not being complete fodder for it

27) raticate

super fang means it can get pretty high damage on lapras and keep slowbro down. super fang works on haunter! 97 is a bit awkward as a speed tier with how FRAIL this is though.

28) scyther

it's 105 speed with swords dance, i think of this as a dodrio that can attempt to win games

29) mr mime

psychic time with thunderbolt to actually pressure slowbro, i suppose?

30) kabutops

unlike omastar, doesnt have the issue of doing no damage to lapras and hypno, but does hate haunter a whole lot. use submission for lapras

omastar dewgong vaporeon

omastar in theory has more of a niche than the other two listed here but they are going to drop to NU. i dont see why youd run this alongside lapras or over lapras when slowbro and gyarados are more versatile

While I don't agree with absolutely everything in this post(main one being I don't think Kanga can be argued for #2 even though it's amazing, Lapras just glues so much of the meta together right now as it is) I want to point out what an incredible snapshot of the meta this is for anyone who might be considering playing RBY UU in RBYPL.

Building on your Slowbro point, I am REALLY interested to see how it + Golem fare in the upcoming tour. They feel like such situational mons which can sometimes aid you in a pinch but other times fall flat on their faces.

I

 

[Wanted in 49 States]

RBY UU is suspecting confusion inducing moves, Confuse Ray and Supersonic. All voters will be DMed and the votes will be made public after the vote concludes.

Voting List

UUCL won 1 game, played 3
Maris Bonibell
magialice
Wanted in 49 States
Teh
Sabelette
THE_CHUNGLER
Melbelle

UU Cup Semifinals
Wanted in 49 States
ThatOneApple
PKMN Master™
ButtGallon

RoA Spotlight Finalists
GirlsSeeGhosts
Wanted in 49 States
WildCard782

Got Reqs in Wrap suspect vote, has played a game of the new meta
Sabelette
Wanted in 49 States
pac
ButtGallon
Gerrychu29
GirlsSeeGhosts
Maris Bonibell
Melbelle
magialice
Theycallmephil
PKMN Master™
Premonitions

There are 16 voters. 10 votes to ban will mean Confuse Ray and Supersonic will be banned with at least a 60% threshold, though the required number may be lower if some people choose to abstain. If you think you should get reqs and we missed you, DM me or anyone on the council. Vote deadline is Monday 29th at 9pm -7. Voters will get a message shortly.

 

[Sabelette]

RBY UU is suspecting confusion inducing moves, Confuse Ray and Supersonic. All voters will be DMed and the votes will be made public after the vote concludes.

Voting List

UUCL won 1 game, played 3
Maris Bonibell
magialice
Wanted in 49 States
Teh
Sabelette
THE_CHUNGLER
Melbelle

UU Cup Semifinals
Wanted in 49 States
ThatOneApple
PKMN Master™
ButtGallon

RoA Spotlight Finalists
GirlsSeeGhosts
Wanted in 49 States
WildCard782

Got Reqs in Wrap suspect vote, has played a game of the new meta
Sabelette
Wanted in 49 States
pac
ButtGallon
Gerrychu29
GirlsSeeGhosts
Maris Bonibell
Melbelle
magialice
Theycallmephil
PKMN Master™
Premonition

There are 16 voters. 10 votes to ban will mean Confuse Ray and Supersonic will be banned with at least a 60% threshold, though the required number may be lower if some people choose to abstain. If you think you should get reqs and we missed you, DM me or anyone on the council. Vote deadline is Monday 29th at 9pm -7. Voters will get a message shortly.

"Shortly" means tomorrow because I will be out the rest of the night, but don't worry, it will come

 

[PKMN Master™]

A Little Quip From Me…

Here’s something new to chew on—*food for thought* that isn’t directly related to Uu.

We have already removed elements that GameFreak originally included to create a “balanced” game when they released Pokémon Red, Green, Blue, and Pikachu between 1996 and 1999:

1) Evasion moves
2) One-Hit Knockout (OHKO) moves
3) Blizzard having a 30 percent freeze chance
(Yes, this mechanic was present in the original Japanese Gen 1 games, not just in Red and Green)
4) Partial trapping moves

***
Interestingly, GameFreak started the trend of suspecting or banning moves with the changes to Blizzard.
As a community, we have taken this even further over the years.

The next moves seemingly on the chopping block are low-accuracy moves that cause sleep and confusion. (For the love of Helix, do not touch sleep!)

Currently, I believe Confuse Ray should be banned.
(Note: I am not saying confusion as a whole should be banned—Supersonic’s low accuracy already acts as a natural deterrent, so banning it is unnecessary.)

In short, Confuse Ray, whose guaranteed 100% accuracy, creates an environment where one relies on a coin-flip strategy. This can be seen as an unfair move that tries to*steal games or cause unexpected upsets.

 

[Sabelette]

Message is out, vote away

 

[Sabelette]

With 9 votes to ban out of 15 (due to one abstain), Confuse Ray and Supersonic are banned from UU and therefore from RBY lower tiers (as in, UU through ZU). Tagging dhelmise and Marty to please implement whenever convenient, thank you!

Thank you to all who voted!

Vote list for transparency at the time the vote was called:
Ban
Teh
Wanted in 49 States
Maris Bonibell
THE_CHUNGLER
Sabelette
Theycallmephil
ButtGallon
ThatOneApple
GirlsSeeGhosts

Do Not Ban
magialice

Abstain
pac

 

[Yech]

WOOHOO glad that supersonic and confuse ray are gone! Lapras and Haunter get a bit worse but not anywhere close to killing them, just makes them worse into matchups they already were supposed to lose anyways. Ninetales I think takes the bigger hit since it has more of those less than ideal matchups it would try to cover with confuse ray cheese. but even so calling any of them dead by any stretch is wrong. Just makes the tier more fun to play and more competitive