I hard disagree with this, I'm not fully convinced woger is necessarily overpowered but the fact that rain would be super balanced with it gone definitely tips me towards the pro ban side. You already mentioned how many other rain checks exist in the metagame, although I'd also include Hydrapple, Sinistcha, and Grasspon in the list of checks, and also tera means that literally any mon can be a water resist, including Tusk or Lando. I'm not sure how you think rain would be anywhere near dominant, let alone a problem, in a metagame with all these mons around. Rain still struggles in a metagame with all of these mons gone, but IMO it struggles in a much more dynamic way where you're trying to cover for a wide variety of threats (including literally any bulky mon with a potential water/dragon tera), rather than focusing the entire team around dealing with waterpon.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I wasn’t saying rain would be dominant, I was saying it would certainly be better as well I was only bringing up barraskewda checks
The likes of rilla, bolt and mons like idk, wake are still massive problems for rain in a wogerLess meta.
But yeah I forgot about hydra, sinistcha and grasspon.
DaddyBuzzwole I’m mentioning you in this post as I think making a seperate post would be redundant.
2 seperate 20 word long posts rather than 1 40 word long post doesn’t really fit me.
Idk a lot of ppl I’ve met bring that up a good amount of the time during “is woger broken” discussions
But once again, I was implying rain would be in a better state, not dominant or annything, and the main annoyance would be in the builder when you forget to account for it.
here's a set you guys need to try:
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Synthesis
I just played a game in 1900s where I kid you not, this managed to break through a defensive dnite, zapdos, and zama in one game. Some of the hits this can live are genuinely disturbing lmao
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 322-379 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 273-322 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 286-338 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 328-388 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2451106951
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Synthesis
I just played a game in 1900s where I kid you not, this managed to break through a defensive dnite, zapdos, and zama in one game. Some of the hits this can live are genuinely disturbing lmao
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 322-379 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 273-322 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 286-338 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 328-388 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2451106951
Traditionally offensive Mons are harder to stop than defensive Mons are to break. In this specific example, both Chien Pao and Chi Yu have good offensive STABs that are easy to spam, on top of massive power. Chi Yu also benefits from Sun to be even stronger, while Chien Pao outspeeds almost the whole meta and has priority for the few faster Mons.
Meanwhile, Ting Lu (who I think is massively overrated and shouldn,t be S btw) has 6 weaknesses and no recovery outside of Rest. Wo Chien is even worse, with 7 weaknesses and only Knock Off (which to be fair is very good) to make real progress. Both are still viable Mons, but neither is even close to break the meta.
that set put in tons of work but I do want to acknowledge that (respectfully) your opponent seemed allergic to making plays. why did they self chip their Dragonite so much with useless d tails. why were no spikes gotten up. where was Zapdos on every obvious Corv switch (instead of clicking e speed and d tail into a helmet Corv!!). how did Ghold Tera manage to do absolutely nothing.
props to you for the set and for putting in work but good lord that replay was hard to watch.
Can you go into more detail? Your examples seem to imply that it was happenstance that ChienPao and Chi-Yu have good offensive typings, while Ting-Lu and Wo-Chien have poor defensive typings. Is it generally the case that types are worse defensively than offensively?
We are well past Gen 2 and 3. Nowadays, there are almost no offensive Mon with movepool problems. Therefore, almost any Mon walled by Ting-Lu can adapt to it. Gholdengo has Focus Blast and Dazzling Gleam. Darkrai has 3 different super effective moves + Wow to cripple it. Deoxys-S has Superpower or NP + Focus Blast (though I wouldn,t risk it with Ting-Lu set unrevealed, Payback is a thing). Raging Bolt simply launches Specs (Tera, but not really needed) Dragon Draco Meteor. Etc. This is all even without mentioning Tera Blast, which makes it even easier.
Meanwhile, its harder to adapt for an offensive Mon that 2HKOs almost the whole meta. You can use Poliwrath or Paldean Tauros vs Chien Pao, sure (and I actually did it when the cat was legal and even without it), but they are way harder to fit in teams than just putting a Specs on your Raging Bolt.
This definitely is not true. There are plenty of Pokemon with lacking movepools even in this tier. Raging Bolt for example has a shallow overall movepool for example and relies on brute strength mostly. Or Dondozo which has a deceptively small pool of useful moves.
Also side note specs bolt mid af don’t know why you mentioned it when talking about ting lu
It’s also just not true that Lu has a poor defensive typing. It has some really nice resists and immunities (future sight immune, electric immune, dark resist, rock resist, tons of useful neutralities).
As a whole, offensive pokemon are geared towards dealing damage and winning faster and so they’re more likely to end up broken when they lean too far in that direction. Whether they do too much damage too quickly (chi yu and chien pao) or they are able to boost and reach a state of being too difficult to answer reasonably (Gouging Fire, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon).
Defensive threats have a much tougher time being unbalanced due to their nature of slower paced gameplay, and lesser damage output. So for them it would be less of damage, and more “is this defensive pokemon unreasonably hard to break through? Do they force excessive levels of specificity when preparing to handle it?” and even their ability to control certain aspects of the meta (example like Teal Mask Gliscor which dominated the hazard game). These dynamics can limit team building and be unhealthy if the conditions needed to handle them are such.
In practice these situations regarding broken defensive pokemon don’t come up nearly as often, because there just often is more counterplay overall to defensive play as opposed to offensive play, due to the slower nature and the fact that there tends to be more offensive tools overall.
^Non Specs Bolt surely has movepool problems (I like Tera Blast, but it's a big commitment), but Specs one definitely doesn't need more Moves except Stabs, very few Mons switch on it.
Also, I wouldn't call Dondozo an offensive Mon, it can use Curse, but rarely sweeps with it, it's main use, Curse or not, is still walling things
Also, I wouldn't call Dondozo an offensive Mon, it can use Curse, but rarely sweeps with it, it's main use, Curse or not, is still walling things
Yeah you aren't wrong, but thats also not the point lol. The replay linked is to showcase the set and its capability of breaking through usual checks (also my lu had rest, so the zapdos coming in wasn't the end of the world). I'll see if I can find any other good replays
Every non-boxart Pokemon that's been banned this Generation has been an offensive force for varying reasons. They hit too hard and they're too fast, it's too easy for them to find free turns and run away with the game after that, they can pick and choose what they lose to. They are immediately threatening and are just too good at blowing teams open.
Defensive threats by comparison boil down to either how well they do their job or how difficult they are to kill. Forgive me and point out if I'm wrong, but I'll be referring to Pre-Gen 9 Defense Deoxys and Pre-Isle of Armor Toxapex. To my knowledge;
Defense Deoxys was good at building up and keeping up Spikes. Its Speed tier of 90 was really good for what it did and Taunt enabled it to completely block Defog.
Toxapex was just toxic plain and simple. It was so cartoonishly bulky it could stay in on pretty much any unboosted Earthquakes and fish for a Scald burn all while being nigh unkillable thanks to Regenerator. I believe there was discussion for it before Isle of Armor dropped, around the time Dracovish got banned?
It's simply so much easier for offensive threats to snap the metagame in half like a twig and win when you have 4 Pokemon left vs a defensive Pokemon constricting the metagame around it and being too hard to kill.
Adding to/elaborating on the point that offensive mons are harder to stop than defensive mons are to break, consider this: in order to withstand an offensive threat, you either need to be able to switch into it and blank it, or you need to be able to safely bring in something that outspeeds it and can beat it from there. It switching out doesn’t mean you made no progress: they had to manage to get the offensive threat in, and sponge whatever hit forced that threat out with something else, so they had to concede some resources more than likely. However, if an offensive threat makes you sac something every time it gets in, and it can itself come in on a sac, slow pivot, resisted hit, etc., the wincon of preventing it from getting opportunities to dish out strong hits is very shaky. And that is your wincon against these types of threats: keep the big threat off the field as much as possible. Against defensive mons, on the other hand—especially those lacking recovery like Ting Lu—the wincon is to bring the defensive mon in on hits in order to wear it down. So defensive pieces can be very good at their jobs while still offering a clear path to success against them, while offensive pieces are broken or fair generally based on how much progress is needed for them to break through.
Counterpoint: if you see a low tier mon from PU/NU/RU/UU on your opponent's team and they aren't using dedicated team archetypes it is most likely a defensive mon. They tend to emanate value in higher tiers much better than offensive pokemon can since it's harder for them to get outclassed.
Same with Ting-Lu actually, it is among the very best in AG compared to Pao and especially Chi-Yu, but Lu is the one legal in OU.
Same with Ting-Lu actually, it is among the very best in AG compared to Pao and especially Chi-Yu, but Lu is the one legal in OU.
I believe it matters on a larger scope. For example, Hisuian Braviary and Emboar (PU and ZUBL respectively) are brutal wallbreakers, but can't really perform in OU due to flaws they have and being difficult to justify over tried-and-true ones like for example, Ogerpon-W.
However, the defensive Amoonguss is also a PU mon and yet finds use on bulkier and stall structures even after the sleep ban, and stallcord has been experimenting with other shitmons e.g. Muk and Quagsire, Wo-Chien for fellow PU mons e.g.
also speaking of PU, Amoonguss and Terrakion are two former OU/UU mons (hell the mushroom has a better track record) but PU has adapted just fine to Amoonguss, whereas Terrakion was quickbanned after a few hours
I would offer two main responses:
1) Braviary-H and Emboar aren’t just outclassed, they’re bad at being offensive threats in general. This is chiefly due to their low speed stats even in lower tiers, where they can only eventually become broken when their bulk allows them to take a couple hits and still fire off their own. It’s not that Braviary-H is worse at hitting things in OU, it just doesn’t get to hit things at all. A better comparison in my opinion would be something like Azelf, Hitmonlee, or Noivern—all fast, frail offensive threats that archetypally match what tends to get banned (though I know Annihilape, Archaludon, etc don’t fit this mold—allow it for brevity’s sake), but that aren’t quite strong enough in this archetype to warrant OU, let alone Uber status.
On the defensive end, generally bad defensive mons aren’t bad for their lack of defensive capabilities, the way that offensive mons tend to be bad for their lack of offensive capabilities. Rather, they’re bad because they’re too passive. Passive defensive mons tend to let in strong threats that now need *another* switch-in, such as Amoonguss letting in Gholdengo for free to attack or set up a nasty plot that you now need to respond to. Most teams are too offensive to handle the suite of threats that Amoonguss lets in this way, and if made to sac a couple times in order to stave off these threats, will fall apart shortly after. That’s why stall in particular has such a reputation for being able to tech a defensive shitmon for particular matchups: because the other 5 mons on the team are tailor built to switch into other big threats. Pex and Blissey in Gen 8 were viable on BO and Balance structures because of knock/scald and teleport respectively fixing their passivity; with those gone, they basically only see use on stall now. Mind you, Blissey is the greatest special wall to ever do it, better at taking special attacks than Ting Lu, but the latter is a top 3 mon while the former is RU not because of their defensive capabilities but because ot their offensive ones. Ting Lu has Ruination, EQ, Whirlwind, both hazards, even uncommon options like heavy slam and payback, all coming off a base 110 attack stat. Blissey hits like a squeaky toy. If I have a LO Weavile to bring in, I’ll be a lot more chill coming in on Blissey’s seismic toss than on Ting Lu’s EQ or ruination, the former which does 60-70%.
I think a cool direction for the thread is talking about that new tournament that was posted a few days ago about the rotating old threats. I think its safe to say most aren't OU because they.... aren't good enough, but anyone think that like a month of experimentation with these mons on OU teams could lead to any developing niches or underexplored mons? I know JackRG has shilled for Jirachi in the context of this gen a few times now, and it seems Empoleon discussion has popped up here and there in the viability thread as a spD tank or offensive rocker.
I think most of these Pokemon have some unrealized niche. I am excited to see if there are any developments for Metagross and Slowbro in particular. Metagross is a Knock Off mon that's actually quite annoying to swap into since it has coverage for the usual Knock Absorbers (Ice Punch for Gliscor, Meteor Mash for Clefable) + some other weird utility like Rocks, Psychic Fangs for Screens, an ok-ish typing for Kyurem (though you probably need to run AV). Slowbro, on the other hand, matches up well into a lot of annoying OU Pokemon like Gliscor, (kinda), Tusk, and Zama, while possessing options to cripple its checks with moves like Scald and Thunder Wave. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't even see an ounce of use given its decent qualities.
i’ve used av meta with iron head (mmash and hslam both are less consistent into stect kyu), psynoise, knock, and i think it was eq last to some success, pseudo checks kyurem and owns pech thanks to clear body. i think the main issue with slowbro this gen is kantoking (very underrated mon btw) offering such similar in niche except that one has pivoting and one lacks it which makes it a LOT worse at its job
Kanto Slowking has not much bearing on Slowbro because the two answer opposite ends of the offensive spectrum (and Kanto Slowking being bad, especially when Glowking exists). Slowbro struggles because yes no pivoting can make it drop momentum easily, and it doesn’t check that many physical threats. Like Great Tusk, Zama, LandoT and Cinderace are all that come to mind. And those are checked elsewhere fine while Slowbro also invites in annoying threats pretty easily so it tends to just not be worth it.
As somebody who has used Slowbro, what annoying threats does it even let in? Waterpon doesn't like taking body press, thunder wave or foul play (slowbro can even take a power whip from full). Dragapult doesn't like scald or foul play, Gliscor ig but scald chunks it decently, foul play does solid damage after a boost (it can't even threaten slowbro immensly) and body press does great damage to tera normal variants. Kyurem doesn't appreciate a scald burn and body press does a ton to it. Raging bolt ig, but ting lu is a great partner anyways and primarina also too ig. Like, it lets in a few threats, but the majority don't like a common move.
Take this with a grain of salt because I haven’t experimented with this one, though I’m curious to hear from others. I do think Gyarados is on the cusp of having a niche. Being a flying type neutral to ice, optionally with intimidate, already renders it a decent switch-in to 4 of the best mons in the tier in Tusk, Zama, Lu, and Dnite, while outspeeding the latter two; adamant Gyara at +1 still outspeeds the standard IDBP Zama spread, though by a tiny margin that any speed creep will render moot. While it doesn’t want to switch into Kingambit, Woger, Hamurott, Weavile, etc., intimidate sets are useful in assisting with reining these threats in for others or itself. Its movepool includes many useful utility moves like twave, taunt, roar/dtail, and endeavor; lefties sub/twave/waterfall/phazing move is a (cheesy) set we’ve seen on paraspam teams already. Dragon dance sets with waterfall, eq, and double-edge/tblast flying/tera dragon outrage/scale shot have coverage for everything while either easing setup with intimidate or attempting to snowball with moxie. It handles most priority well, resisting bullet punch, aqua jet, and vacuum wave, while being neutral to ice shard, grassy glide, sucker punch, and shadow sneak and only weak to thunderclap. Raging Bolt is unfortunately a nightmare for it if you’re not tera ground/electric or substitute + eq, as can be Pult if you’re not Jolly tblast flying or outrage, Woger if you’re not tblast flying, tera dragon outrage, or tera normal double-edge, Zapdos if you’re not tera electric, and Dozo, Corv, Pech, and Kyurem in general. Certainly that is enough of a threatlist to satisfactorily explain why it’s not commonly used in OU, with the majority of teams being sufficiently prepared for it naturally at least unless it either takes on a more supportive role or is given significant support for its weak matchups. However, it seems strong enough to me to warrant occasional use on legitimate teams.
i disagree i think that regen mons are a fundementally positive presence on the meta game due to their ability to to switch into wallbreaksrs while simultaniously pressuring them see galarian wheezing into cm iron val, hydraple into wogerpon, alo pressures physical sweapers through burn and they are interactive cause well they are more likely to switch their glowking there so i will go tusk, a defensive mon like toxapex is significantly weaker in this meta game just due to tera plus the insane stat distrobutions i.e tusk
the only thing slightly creative ive done in a long time is running this kingambit set. the team cycled through many different leads utilizing stealth rock / thunderwave like deoxys and jirachi. Deoxys was there for the longest acting as priority if saved. i decided to try something different and its been pretty useful at times. i started a new account to try for a better GXE now that I'm done messing with the team.
Kingambit @ Air Balloon
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
Usually always gets rocks up. Can beat landorus leads. Glim gets toxic spikes up but at least dies without setting up too much. Bee gets webs up but oh well. Love that defiant boost when you get it. Thunderwave everything I can. Pretty useful.
I made a new account a few days ago so I know its low level game but when it works out its fun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2452524332
Kingambit @ Air Balloon
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
Usually always gets rocks up. Can beat landorus leads. Glim gets toxic spikes up but at least dies without setting up too much. Bee gets webs up but oh well. Love that defiant boost when you get it. Thunderwave everything I can. Pretty useful.
I made a new account a few days ago so I know its low level game but when it works out its fun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2452524332
i just feel like scarf lando t tblast flying just does the same thing but better gyara, it isnt as kyurem weak due to the avalability of uturn, stab earthquake is always nice, u turn pressures wogerpon and hat i just feel like lando t in general just has a better mu spread and fills a similar niech and if you want a ice type neutral flying type go molt or corv