Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

[Magcargo]

- Stole a team from Cherry on Discord (IDK who they are on the forums) and this mon can be kinda fun, though I feel the team we built may need some more tweeks. Its basically like a blend of Volcarona and Zapdos with way shittier stats.... so not like them at all. Still the typing is great, gives it a lot of resistances to the priority in the tier + giving it many oppurtunities to setup QD. Like its OU friends that got banned because of DD / QD + Recovery, you can kinda do the same and just snowball out of control. I think investing bulk on this mon is a smart idea to better live all the priority in the tier from mons like Scizor, Lokix, etc. and start goobing. We are running 152 HP EVs to live adamant band Lokix Fimp (doesn't survive Tera Bug tho). The one shortcoming is that Hurricane is a garbage attack on a mon like this since you want it to be hitting its moves when going for the big sweep. I could see this Pokemon either becoming the next big HO cheeser or possible suspect target (nah..... but maybe?) if better players expirement with it more. Heck, I could see it finding a place on more standard teams just as a Volcarona-esque wincon.

 

[cosmogii]

hey, i'm someone who mostly plays ru and doesn't know the meta for uu all that well. saw slither wing was predicted to rise from ru to uu and i'm curious what its use is in the uu meta? i don't figure it's a better fimp user than lokix or something, is it really just the unique coverage it has that's giving it a niche? with meow being banned i don't figure it WILL come up here, but it doesn't hurt to ask either.

oh and PLEASE give ru metagross, i'm begging you people
we need another steel type not weak to gapdos that isn't fake like bronzong or has mid bulk like jirachi, free me from this bird hell

 

[kimer]

hey, i'm someone who mostly plays ru and doesn't know the meta for uu all that well. saw slither wing was predicted to rise from ru to uu and i'm curious what its use is in the uu meta? i don't figure it's a better fimp user than lokix or something, is it really just the unique coverage it has that's giving it a niche? with meow being banned i don't figure it WILL come up here, but it doesn't hurt to ask either.

oh and PLEASE give ru metagross, i'm begging you people
we need another steel type not weak to gapdos that isn't fake like bronzong or has mid bulk like jirachi, free me from this bird hell

Answering your question:

Slither wing doesn't use first impression in this tier so there is no competition with lokix

Slither Wing @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
- Flame Charge

This build allows him to beat dirge or at least force his terastal and can also beat skarmory without Whirlwind

It is certainly one of the fundamental pieces for most current HOs, its power to force the opponent's terastal and to be able to deal with the two Pokémon that I mentioned above is highly valued

This is the most powerful (and only) set used, it is definitely one of the best sweepers in the tier currently

About metagross: It will probably dropped, nobody uses it anymore

 

[mintwinter]

With meow gone, i think we should look at another problematic grass type in the tier: cornerpon. Cornerpon is one of the hardest pokemon to prepare for on balance/bo archetypes; coba gets ohko'd by +2 superpower, skarm almost always gets ohko'd by +2 tera cudgel after rocks. The easiest reliable switch-in to fit in my experience is metagross, which alr isn't that splashable (and doesn't like getting knocked). After that, we have chesnaught, which, while not terrible into other mons in the tier, isn't easy to fit at all. Defensively, cornerpon doesn't function like apple or zarude, and is quite difficult to build with as well as position vs some teams. However, this doesn't change the fact that it's a ridiculous breaker. imo, getting rid of cornerpon won't have too big an impact on the tier; it just makes balance a little easier to use, which is why i'd be in favor of a ban

 

[Catcus]

It's my Birthday! And with it, July Shifts are here!

- THE GOAT IS BACK. Tink's place in the tier was pretty debated when it left, but after leaving it was VERY clear that it had a vital place in the meta. It coming back is fantastic and I'm looking forward to building with it. Let's go Queen.

- Deo is another mon that very much defied expectations. While it's place was debated upon it's return, people soon realized how powerful it was as a lead and how much it buffed Hyper Offense. By the end of it's second tenure in the tier this gen, people seemed ready to ban it. It leaving overall is pretty great then.

- Our worst loss, but even then scizor wasn't exactly in the best spot. The other steels like tran and skarm both outcompeted it and dominated against it. While it will be missed, it certainly isn't an insane loss.

(Galar) - lol be real who cares

- All our newest risers have been a long time coming. Now all we need is gastro to rise and every current mon in B+ and above will be offically UU!

Winners

- Lost Probably it's two best revenge killers in the tier. Mon's been catching eyes for a tiering action recently and this isn't exactly slowing it down.

- You handle tink the same way you handle i heatran (u-turn) and in exchange you now lose the best offensive steel and one of the best psychic types in the tier, and the other best one is worse. Definitely a win.

- The alternate Hazard leads are all eating tonight with deo gone. Maybe Mew becomes the meta again???

- Greninja is now the natural fastest mon in the tier! Idk how much it helps the frog but it wins none the less.

Losers

- Ho losing the greatest lead it could ask for is a massive nerf to the style. Not enough to kill it of course but it's gonna need to find some new leads now.

- Our glorious queen tinkaton is here to give the mon a much harder time consistently ripping through teams. Calm mind set especially lose a lot from this.

Overall these shifts are pretty good! I'm excited to see where the tier develops from here. Have a good Day!!!

 

[BolTingBlazie]

All I have to say is it looks extremely likely that OU steals torn-t, the current best and most splashable mon in UU. If that happens it is gonna be wild down here for a while since that mon checks so much

 

[NDK]

Very late on this but here are my thoughts on the potential rises and drops affecting UU:
UU to OU:

Losing Torn would cause a seismic shift of unprecedented proportions in the UU meta. Torn has been in UU since July of 2023, and is UU's only S rank right now. It fits on so many teams as a progress maker with Knock Off, Taunt, and U-turn. Its Assault Vest set serves as a fantastic check to many of the tier's special attackers, such as Hydrapple, Latios, and Keldeo. I think that with Torn gone, the meta becomes slower, as a fantastic progress maker is gone.

This one is also going to hurt. Heatran serves as a defensive cornerstone of many different teams, serving to check threats such as Lokix, Zarude, and even Excadrill and Revaroom if it's holding an Air Balloon. I think that with Heatran gone, Lokix and Zarude become more dominant, and Zarude in particular could be seen as banworthy, especially in conjunction with Torn rising.
OU to UU:

This is a very interesting drop. The last time Weavile was in the tier, it was suspected and narrowly avoided being banned, with there being 28 ban votes to 32 do not ban votes. I think that this time, especially with the lack of Heatran to potentially threaten Weavile with a flame body burn, Weavile might be banned from UU.
OU to NU:

Araquanid dropping is going to be very interesting. Webs as a playstyle is very poor in UU, largely stemming from the fact that Excadrill can beat Ribombee, which is the tier's most popular Sticky Web setter. So having a setter that can defeat Excadrill should be very interesting for UU. While I don't think Araquanid would have the usage to remain UU, I think it will have a valuable niche in the tier.
RUBL to UU:

Ogerpon rising is not a surprise, as a large reason for it dropping was due to Meowscarada's presence in the tier. Its role as a fast pivot will become even more valuable as Torn leaves for OU.
NUBL to UU:

To be honest, I'm not sure why Politoed is rising. I am assuming that Rain is prevalent on ladder as I have not seen much of it in UUCL. It also doesn't help that Specs Torn, one of its best partners on rain teams, is projected to rise to OU.
UU to RUBL:

Comfey dropping is not much of a surprise. Ever since Rillaboom got banned, Comfey has struggled in UU, being overly reliant on tera to beat Steels and Fire types while also struggling with Skeledrige. It dropping is a fair assement, as it isn't that good in UU at the moment.

Another Victim of Rillaboom's ban, as it has struggled immensely since the ban. It needs to get up a Swords Dance to be a threat, and also needs Unburden to outspeed Key Threats such as Greninja and Torn. Even with Torn's projected departure, Weavile would take its place, so I don't see Hawlucha returning to relevance anytime soon.

 

[pdt]

Very late on this but here are my thoughts on the rises and drops affecting UU:
UU to OU:

Losing Torn would cause a seismic shift of unprecedented proportions in the UU meta. Torn has been in UU since July of 2023, and is UU's only S rank right now. It fits on so many teams as a progress maker with Knock Off, Taunt, and U-turn. Its Assault Vest set serves as a fantastic check to many of the tier's special attackers, such as Hydrapple, Latios, and Keldeo. I think that with Torn gone, the meta becomes slower, as a fantastic progress maker is gone.

This one is also going to hurt. Heatran serves as a defensive cornerstone of many different teams, serving to check threats such as Lokix, Zarude, and even Excadrill and Revaroom if it's holding an Air Balloon. I think that with Heatran gone, Lokix and Zarude become more dominant, and Zarude in particular could be seen as banworthy, especially in conjunction with Torn rising.
OU to UU:

This is a very interesting drop. The last time Weavile was in the tier, it was suspected and narrowly avoided being banned, with there being 28 ban votes to 32 do not ban votes. I think that this time, especially with the lack of Heatran to potentially threaten Weavile with a flame body burn, Weavile might be banned from UU.
OU to NU:

Araquanid dropping is going to be very interesting. Webs as a playstyle is very poor in UU, largely stemming from the fact that Excadrill can beat Ribombee, which is the tier's most popular Sticky Web setter. So having a setter that can defeat Excadrill should be very interesting for UU. While I don't think Araquanid would have the usage to remain UU, I think it will have a valuable niche in the tier.
RUBL to UU:

Ogerpon rising is not a surprise, as a large reason for it dropping was due to Meowscarada's presence in the tier. Its role as a fast pivot will become even more valuable as Torn leaves for OU.
NUBL to UU:

To be honest, I'm not sure why Politoed is rising. I am assuming that Rain is prevalent on ladder as I have not seen much of it in UUCL. It also doesn't help that Specs Torn, one of its best partners on rain teams, is projected to rise to OU.
UU to RUBL:

Comfey dropping is not much of a surprise. Ever since Rillaboom got banned, Comfey has struggled in UU, being overly reliant on tera to beat Steels and Fire types while also struggling with Skeledrige. It dropping is a fair assement, as it isn't that good in UU at the moment.

Another Victim of Rillaboom's ban, as it has struggled immensely since the ban. It needs to get up a Swords Dance to be a threat, and also needs Unburden to outspeed Key Threats such as Greninja and Torn. Even with Torn's projected departure, Weavile would take its place, so I don't see Hawlucha returning to relevance anytime soon.

Hey, great post, going to just add on to some of the more significant points. Quick rises don't happen anymore, so it will be until October until Torn-T inevitably rises, as the council from my understanding does not plan on action for it. We have been discussing the incoming effects of it leaving, notably its speed tier and versatility giving it the ability to soft check lots of threats that are otherwise difficult to check defensively, such as Ogerpon-Cornerstone. Heatran rising isn't a huge deal for the tier in my opinion, although it does open up some bulkier structures / setup Pokemon that are shut down by Magma Storm + Taunt, as well as offense Pokemon impacted by Flame Body, specifically Lokix. It is a little difficult to speculate on the meta with the S rank Pokemon rising, but I think as a tier and council we should take a conservative approach to tiering as Torn-T leaves because it is so formative for the tier.

Obviously there are many more speculative effects on from two of these key Pokemon leaving and the potential drop of Weavile, but for the next couple of months I'd like the tier as a whole to focus on what is in front of us instead of the tier in October, because we will get there when we get there. Also if Weavile drops right now I think it'd be a nice addition to the tier, maybe next month!

 

[Colin]

I placed second in the grand slam playoffs, so now seems a good time for me to put my metagame opinions. In general, I agree with the conventional wisdom that Tornadus Therian runs the tier because it's speed tier + regen + NP or Taunt is really reliable even against teams that prep for it. My method of dealing with it was one of: Paralyze it, stack threats that it doesn't scare on Hyper Offense, or stack steels to gain flexibility on bulky offense and balances. The first 2 I feel like people do effectively enough, although I theorize that mental herb slowking is potentially great. The 3rd one people are not good at.

- don't use this pokemon outside of as a support pick on teams that are or are bordering HO. The role compression is not worth it. Tinkaton does not do its roles on bulky offense and balances effectively. This is because taunt tornadus + removal will prevent it from making any progress. Stealth rock chip adds up very quickly when tornadus can regenerate it's hits, which means both Tornadus and Excadrill have to be low hp with Tornadus on the field for Tinkaton to threaten rocks. Notably, Tornadus + Excadrill is one of the most common support cores for Latios, who can also chip in with Flip Turn and Luster Purge, making Tinkaton a very unreliable Latios answer in long games it gets forced in because of its low damage output, and Latios is theoretically Tinkaton's reason for existing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-860238 - There were a lot more problems this game on preview than Tinkaton existing, but Tinkaton being the primary Latios check is the reason why there was nearly no outplay potential. Spikes are unhelpful because many Excadrill builds are superman structures outside of steel spam for redundancy and offensive flexibility.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-862680 - this game goes more on the list of why Donphan balance is bad, but there's also a sighting of rocksless Tinkaton being completely terrible and stuck on the field. It cannot bring a game back because it has no offensive presence. I'm begging the uu playerbase to please keep using Tinkaton vs me, Excadrill is forcing lots of specific switches while having great utility, Heatran is one of the scariest breakers in the tier, at least Skarm can pressure with hazards long term bc removal doesn't beat it. Off meta steel types such as Cobalion, Jirachi, Metagross, etc may not be as relevant defensively, but they can at least progress the game and make progress while Tinkaton cannot except for screens or occasionally SD.

- Donphan offense is very good right now. Donphan balance is very bad right now. This is because Donphan is a short term presence and struggles vs Heatran and offensive utility Excadrill if the game goes long at all. Being able to stop hazards once or twice while being able to set your own or break some structures is really good for HO, because those teams can surround it with hard hitters to limit opposing breakers opportunities. Sun, standard Revavroom Thundy Ijug comps, and many off meta HO can really use it effectively while balance will just let Excadrill in eventually.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-865504?p2 - another showcase of Donphan being overwhelmed by offensive rocks Excadrill, which threatens a 3hko. More physdef sets can eat that, but would then be unable to trade vs anything else on my team effectively.

- Ogerpon teal isn't very good. It suffers from Tornadus meta and also suffers because Ogerpon Cornerstone, Excadrill, and Latios hit harder and force more answers to them which also cover Ogerpon Teal. As a pivot, it gets ruined by Heatran and the regen picks switch into it. Against HO, the speed boost from tera is nice, but both sun and standard Revavroom Thundy comps have tools to use vs it. Defensively, it is inferior to most other grass types and it cannot answer Excadrill.

My 4-0 in the slam playoffs in UU is not because of me being smart, it's because there are a lot of bait picks that people are falling for. ty to Petros for helping me during my run, especially vs Star.

 

[Sabella]

I placed second in the grand slam playoffs, so now seems a good time for me to put my metagame opinions. In general, I agree with the conventional wisdom that Tornadus Therian runs the tier because it's speed tier + regen + NP or Taunt is really reliable even against teams that prep for it. My method of dealing with it was one of: Paralyze it, stack threats that it doesn't scare on Hyper Offense, or stack steels to gain flexibility on bulky offense and balances. The first 2 I feel like people do effectively enough, although I theorize that mental herb slowking is potentially great. The 3rd one people are not good at.

- don't use this pokemon outside of as a support pick on teams that are or are bordering HO. The role compression is not worth it. Tinkaton does not do its roles on bulky offense and balances effectively. This is because taunt tornadus + removal will prevent it from making any progress. Stealth rock chip adds up very quickly when tornadus can regenerate it's hits, which means both Tornadus and Excadrill have to be low hp with Tornadus on the field for Tinkaton to threaten rocks. Notably, Tornadus + Excadrill is one of the most common support cores for Latios, who can also chip in with Flip Turn and Luster Purge, making Tinkaton a very unreliable Latios answer in long games it gets forced in because of its low damage output, and Latios is theoretically Tinkaton's reason for existing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-860238 - There were a lot more problems this game on preview than Tinkaton existing, but Tinkaton being the primary Latios check is the reason why there was nearly no outplay potential. Spikes are unhelpful because many Excadrill builds are superman structures outside of steel spam for redundancy and offensive flexibility.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-862680 - this game goes more on the list of why Donphan balance is bad, but there's also a sighting of rocksless Tinkaton being completely terrible and stuck on the field. It cannot bring a game back because it has no offensive presence. I'm begging the uu playerbase to please keep using Tinkaton vs me, Excadrill is forcing lots of specific switches while having great utility, Heatran is one of the scariest breakers in the tier, at least Skarm can pressure with hazards long term bc removal doesn't beat it. Off meta steel types such as Cobalion, Jirachi, Metagross, etc may not be as relevant defensively, but they can at least progress the game and make progress while Tinkaton cannot except for screens or occasionally SD.

- Donphan offense is very good right now. Donphan balance is very bad right now. This is because Donphan is a short term presence and struggles vs Heatran and offensive utility Excadrill if the game goes long at all. Being able to stop hazards once or twice while being able to set your own or break some structures is really good for HO, because those teams can surround it with hard hitters to limit opposing breakers opportunities. Sun, standard Revavroom Thundy Ijug comps, and many off meta HO can really use it effectively while balance will just let Excadrill in eventually.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-865504?p2 - another showcase of Donphan being overwhelmed by offensive rocks Excadrill, which threatens a 3hko. More physdef sets can eat that, but would then be unable to trade vs anything else on my team effectively.

- Ogerpon teal isn't very good. It suffers from Tornadus meta and also suffers because Ogerpon Cornerstone, Excadrill, and Latios hit harder and force more answers to them which also cover Ogerpon Teal. As a pivot, it gets ruined by Heatran and the regen picks switch into it. Against HO, the speed boost from tera is nice, but both sun and standard Revavroom Thundy comps have tools to use vs it. Defensively, it is inferior to most other grass types and it cannot answer Excadrill.

My 4-0 in the slam playoffs in UU is not because of me being smart, it's because there are a lot of bait picks that people are falling for. ty to Petros for helping me during my run, especially vs Star.

i agree with most of the stuff here. yes overall tinkaton has always been kinda middling and pretty passive. not a great rocker cuz it lets drill in for free too much even with knock off and foul play at its disposal.

The stuff about donphan is correct. But i think its pretty obvious this isnt a balance pokemon. It would need wish and status recovery to do that which is asking alot. It shouldnt be the sole exca check on a team either. It should be paired with something that can also take it on like a slowking or zarude. It works well on offense and bulky volt turny offenses due its decent attack and decent coverage with ice spinner knock eq.

The points about ogerpon-teal i dont love and i think are short sighted. I think using boots currently is not great as choice band is the better set just for the power. Choice band Tera Ivy Cudgel is 2hkoing torn which is pretty nice for a grass type. it also has access to superpower which you can snipe heatran with. Yes there the flame body stuff that you will have to deal with but its not justification enough not to use it. For example even in this replay you posted https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-865504?p2 your team is really constricted by Band Tealpon as it 2 hits everything. Michaels team was unfortunately not good. He didnt have much for tornadus/tera zarude or exca so it never got going. To me for the same reason you said its not good is why i find it good. If lati and exca have similar checks as it, its a great mon to use to overload those checks id say. Overall it still has its issues of being choice locked revenged by lokix and set up fodder vs reva but I would still rank it as B+ or A-.

also regarding this---- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-860238 - There were a lot more problems this game on preview than Tinkaton existing, but Tinkaton being the primary Latios check is the reason why there was nearly no outplay potential. Spikes are unhelpful because many Excadrill builds are superman structures outside of steel spam for redundancy and offensive flexibility.

Tinka had nothing to do with the outplay potential here. What i think this really showed is how good torn was here cuz frankly skarps team somehow had nothing for it in 2025. Rotom is a nice pivot to come in on it but the team has 0 pokemon faster or that can force a trade with it or really force any progress. The team was far too passive and torn can slowly chip and u turn out on everything here. Like you said there were far more issues than tinka here. I think what wouldve been nice for him was if he had a true spin blocker like sinistcha here so that he could keep hazards up. Again though it just doesnt solve the torn issue in that he cant kill it.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Personally I think tink is still good, but going for rocks is asking to have a hard time into donphan. Older builds used t wave + encore and i like them more. T wave gives you stuff to ruin torn who wants to knock you and screw with skarm, you can always fit rocks somewhere else and you can find utility in that.

I think trying to justify rocks tink esp when donphan and exca are quite good is gonna be a nightmare to keep them up

 

[mintwinter]

BAN CAR
Not very happy with the state of HO in this meta and i've seen similar sentiment expressed on discord. It's very matchup fishy and difficult to build to be safe into. There's no specific mon fully responsible for this, i feel, though action is definitely required. HO has a variety of options to overwhelm the bulky mons in the tier. You also have to contend with tera changing checks to sweepers drastically, such as tera fire slither wing. For example, while fezand has a decent mu into smth like gren, it's unable to effectively check it after thundy has forced it to tera and chipped it, or jugulis has worn it down with earth power and taunt. Same goes for the physical side of things; skarm can't beat revavroom after cornerpon has damaged it (or outright ko'd it).

This brings me to my point about why revavroom should be the first mon action is taken against. It's one of the easiest setup sweepers to to get up and running, since with one shift gear it outspeeds every relevant scarfer while also doing extra damage. It's also able to hit extremely hard after a boost thanks to stab gunk shot, which is challenging to handle since switching into a steel means giving it a temper flare boost. Gunk's high poison chance also means that it can fish for poisons to wear down switch-ins such as gastro and hippo, weakening them for teammates or a sweep later in the game. Its typing in conjunction with air balloon means that it doesn't fear lokix's first impression and can use mons like fezand (and even excadrill if you're feeling bold) to set up. Lastly, a lot of ho staples also fill roles on bulkier structures, like thundy, lokix, and slither. Car, on the other hand, is found pretty much exclusively on ho, which means removing car from the tier would serve as a direct nerf to ho.

#bancornerstone #bancar

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

BAN CAR
Not very happy with the state of HO in this meta and i've seen similar sentiment expressed on discord. It's very matchup fishy and difficult to build to be safe into. There's no specific mon fully responsible for this, i feel, though action is definitely required. HO has a variety of options to overwhelm the bulky mons in the tier. You also have to contend with tera changing checks to sweepers drastically, such as tera fire slither wing. For example, while fezand has a decent mu into smth like gren, it's unable to effectively check it after thundy has forced it to tera and chipped it, or jugulis has worn it down with earth power and taunt. Same goes for the physical side of things; skarm can't beat revavroom after cornerpon has damaged it (or outright ko'd it).

This brings me to my point about why revavroom should be the first mon action is taken against. It's one of the easiest setup sweepers to to get up and running, since with one shift gear it outspeeds every relevant scarfer while also doing extra damage. It's also able to hit extremely hard after a boost thanks to stab gunk shot, which is challenging to handle since switching into a steel means giving it a temper flare boost. Gunk's high poison chance also means that it can fish for poisons to wear down switch-ins such as gastro and hippo, weakening them for teammates or a sweep later in the game. Its typing in conjunction with air balloon means that it doesn't fear lokix's first impression and can use mons like fezand (and even excadrill if you're feeling bold) to set up. Lastly, a lot of ho staples also fill roles on bulkier structures, like thundy, lokix, and slither. Car, on the other hand, is found pretty much exclusively on ho, which means removing car from the tier would serve as a direct nerf to ho.

#bancornerstone #bancar

I think cornerstone is a bigger target, cornerstone is just breaking stuff much better and the risk of letting cornerstone get turns vs HO is having ur main defensive piece just implode. Very few mons can take it and the def boost + tera damage just allows it to break through a lot of stuff and very few mons want to switch into it, the ones who do take a shit ton of dmg or are very few and far. Tinkaton, Chople Cobalion, and Metagross can work but very few teams can act fit them and stomping tantrum kinda ruins all of them and you do not know that unless you in such a situation.

Revavroom even after a shift gear doesnt really deal as much damage compared to letting cornerstone get a free turn, u have many stops such as slowking, WW or ID skarmory, rotom-w, t wave cobalion, Surf Gastrodon or if a tera is already burnt, skeledirge, and its way frailer which means its easy to put into range while cornerstone tying with stuff like latios and being uch faster makes it a pain

I feel dealing with cornerstone is always more painful on the builder and in practice

 

[Avira]

I think cornerstone is a bigger target, cornerstone is just breaking stuff much better and the risk of letting cornerstone get turns vs HO is having ur main defensive piece just implode. Very few mons can take it and the def boost + tera damage just allows it to break through a lot of stuff and very few mons want to switch into it, the ones who do take a shit ton of dmg or are very few and far. Tinkaton, Chople Cobalion, and Metagross can work but very few teams can act fit them and stomping tantrum kinda ruins all of them and you do not know that unless you in such a situation.

Revavroom even after a shift gear doesnt really deal as much damage compared to letting cornerstone get a free turn, u have many stops such as slowking, WW or ID skarmory, rotom-w, t wave cobalion, Surf Gastrodon or if a tera is already burnt, skeledirge, and its way frailer which means its easy to put into range while cornerstone tying with stuff like latios and being uch faster makes it a pain

I feel dealing with cornerstone is always more painful on the builder and in practice

A lot of the mons you listed as answers to Revavroom are actually pretty shaky to begin with as it's not hard to chip Slowking and Rotom-Wash down to 70%, at which +1 Gunk Shot will KO them, and Cobalion is not exactly hard to chip down either. Gastrodon also has to be in close to perfect condition due to how much damage two boosted High Horsepowers do to it.

+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Slowking: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-Wash: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom High Horsepower vs. 112 HP / 144 Def Cobalion: 230-272 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Gastrodon: 179-211 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I understand believing Ogerpon-Cornerstone is a bigger issue than Revavroom, but downplaying Revavroom as a threat isn't necessary IMO.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

A lot of the mons you listed as answers to Revavroom are actually pretty shaky to begin with as it's not hard to chip Slowking and Rotom-Wash down to 70%, at which +1 Gunk Shot will KO them, and Cobalion is not exactly hard to chip down either. Gastrodon also has to be in close to perfect condition due to how much damage two boosted High Horsepowers do to it.

+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Slowking: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-Wash: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom High Horsepower vs. 112 HP / 144 Def Cobalion: 230-272 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Gastrodon: 179-211 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I understand believing Ogerpon-Cornerstone is a bigger issue than Revavroom, but downplaying Revavroom as a threat isn't necessary IMO.

I mean saying revavroom needs to go over cornerstone is smth i disagreed with. I more so compared its impact to cornerstone as a free turn especially early on is not as scary compared to just losing tera / a mon to it. Slowking can also be relaxed instead and it seems a lot are as well. Rotom-W can generally stay healthy, u arent gonna toss it into a revavroom, ofc a lot of this is stuff u can make it so that it sweeps late game but its not cornerstone lvl.

 

[mintwinter]

I’m also heavily in favour of a cornerstone ban, it’s just that i’d already expressed my thoughts on it here a while ago and i feel cornerpon has already been discussed a lot. No action has been taken against it yet unfortunately, which is why i wanted to draw attention to car in the hopes that it’d generate more pro-ban sentiment. The best case scenario is ofc if both of them leave and id probably prefer a cornerpon ban, but i’ll take either one being banned and i think getting a revavroom ban is more realistic

 

[NDK]

Thoughts on the Shifts impacting UU:
UU to OU:
: This mon's departure is huge. Not going to repeat myself as I already covered myself in my previous post but Torn's departure is going to shake up the tier a lot. Its speed combined with it being a check to many of the tier's special attackers makes it a fantastic glue mon for many UU teams. Teams are going to have to innovate, and we will see how the meta looks soon.
: In August I thought Heatran's departure would be huge for the tier, but now it's not as large as I anticipated. It's departure opens things up for threats such as Trailblaze Zarude and Lokix, as they no longer have to worry about Flame Body burns causing a loss of momentum. It's taunt set was a huge threat for bulky offense teams as mons such as Slowking could be trapped easily.
OU to UU:
: After a six-month stay in OU, weavile has returned to UU. It received a suspect test last time in UU, where it barely stayed. Weavile is going to force many dark resists onto teams, and will cause a resurgence of Cobalion, which has fallen off in recent UU. Another fact that I neglected to mention in August was the current lack of Scizor in UU, as it rose in the July tier shifts. We will have to wait and see how good Weavile is.
OU to NU:
: Araquanid will have a niche in the tier, making webs single-handedly viable again. It beats two of the tier's common rapid spinners in Donphan and Excadrill, and with water bubble it can deal surprising damage to specially defensive Skeledirge with surf. Now it has it's problem with Electric-types such as Thundurus-Therian and Rotom-W, as they can Volt Switch on them, but I think Araquanid will have a valuable niche in the tier.
RUBL to UU:
: Ogerpon has risen back to UU, where it will function as an effective pivot. If you want my thoughts on this rise look at my post in August.
RU to UU:
: Zapdos-Galar has risen to UU, which causes seismic shifts to RU as they also lose their S Rank Flying-type. Zapdos Galar functions as a solid choice scarfer, serving as a solid check to threats such as Zarude and having few switch-ins in the tier, as the only relevant Pokemon that resists the STAB combination of Fighting Flying is Thundurus-T.
UU to RUBL:
: Not much to say here, terrain has really fallen off with the ban of Rillaboom and lucha doesn't justify a spot outside of terrain. Many of my thoughts on Hawlucha can be found in the previous metagame thoughts.
: Another abuser of Terrain dropping. Comfey really struggles in the current meta. It is extremely reliant on tera to break past certain threats such as Skeledirge and Tinkaton, and it can be a huge momentum sink.


I look forward to how the meta develops in the coming weeks and look forward to great matches in SCL!

 

[Lyssa]

some yap about shifts before really playing/thinking about things:

Thank god. For those who know me, they know how much i despised this mon in the tier for about as long as it got knock off back. The combination of regen + knock-off + u-turn on a crazy speed tier is deadly annoying to play around, and ever since taunt sets became prevalent due to zapdos leaving combined with lack of reason to really utilise av anymore, it's just been incredibly oppressive and a terrible presence for the tier's health. Playing around it without dedicating 3 slots to it was nearly impossible unless you used something like bellibolt, and with weavile/deo-s/meow previously leaving the tier it had become the common mon at the top of the speed chart, ignoring gren who isn't half as good or splashable as this thing was. To put it simply, this is a net positive for me and I've campaigned for this mon leaving for years, i'm glad it's gone at last and hopefully never to be seen again.

This one i'm kind of sad about. Heatran to me was a weird case of something we have had for months but still felt incredibly underexplored, especially given how people always defaulted to flame body and using it as a throwaway answer to random stuff when in the last 3 or so months that set really had no value or much reason to exist, given it isn't even a fine lokix check. I will miss how much fun it was to use and how good of an enabler it was but it was also really annoying to think about or account while teambuilding so overall it's probably a positive it's gone, even though it was a personal favourite.

Mixed feelings? Calling for a quick-ban is a massive overreaction though. Most people forget weavile was legal for uupl week 3 to 5 when we already had banned quaquaval, and if you check the data from back then you'll notice it wasn't even used that much. I always thought of weavile as borderline in it's time in UU and i'm sure it's going to feel the same way again, since barely anything has changed. Heatran was a terrible check, weavile's best place has always been on spikes teams due to the enablers we have for it and heatran got in range of everything after just one knock, which means you were really only hoping to land a first try flame body with that, so that leaving doesn't really make a big difference for me. It also missed out on torn being sort of an enabler for it by being able to pivot into and clicking moves against, unless you happened to be punished by tera or whatever. I just think weavile is a really skill expressive mon that is not so straight forward to use, and for that reason it'll never look half as broken as something that requires smashing buttons mindlessly like okidogi or hoopa, but it has the potential to be that kind of level of stupid and always did. You still need to play around pickpocket tink and there's still plenty of decent checks like skarm/fez/keld/coba, dirge countering you post-tera although losing boots can be a dead sentence, g-zap being a lot more present now also means you need to consider ice shard vs low kick and stuff. I think it will be fine, it will feel borderline again but unless someone found some magic formula to always make it popoff, it'll feel and look inconsistent most of the time, although deadly in the right hands. Happy it's back tho it's so much fun to use.

There's probably many more i'm forgetting but these are some of the winners that instantly come to mind and need to be aware of. First two are simple and everyone's already talking about them so I can kind of skip over, I don't really see neither being broken but we shall see how things evolve. Keldeo definitely appreciates torn gone although knock/specs aside torn really wasn't the biggest deal for it, and weavile entering the picture both means we will see more of this guy but also means it's pop-off potential is kind of hurt by needing to check it. At the tail end of uupl vacuum sets were common so I'm assuming we will see a lot more of that again, though some other stuff with a less taunt polluted metagame can really be deadly. Skeledirge is a weird one and something I don't see people really talking about, but taunt torn was half the reason why skele balance structures felt really bad and the reason why they pop off during meow meta was because taunt torn really wasn't used much through that. Skele can now survive without getting knocked for a lot longer, but the weird side of things is that nearly everything else skele hates also gets better and might still make it really hard to use. When I'm talking about Slither here i'm really talking about booster sets and not pivot/sun, since I don't think much's gonna change for either of those, especially pivot given slowking is a lot easier to use and you can't msun consistently. Booster has always felt underrated/underappreciated to me and was sitting on the weird line that is being a menace that needs to be accounted for to not be dangerous but not used enough to really consider while building. Now that it's not going to need tera game to game I think it'll be a lot easier to put on HO teams and get value from, excited to see how much it's position in the meta changes. Finally, I think spikes HO is back. Mew's biggest problem to me was taunt torn lead and no matter what kind of decision you made with mental herb twave or whatever, you could never replicate what deo-s was able to do and get both rocks and a spike on. Now mew is capable of doing both and i expect it to get back to a similar position as july/august of last year, where it was the premier lead in the tier. Groupping cornerstone with it not only because i felt like cornerstone was only ever problematic on these teams specifically, but also because I think cornerstone was the problem with these teams, given how much it helped with lead/keeping hazards up/burning teras. If this comes true I think these teams are once again going to be a problem and cornerstone is the element that needs to be addressed with them.

So yeah those are my thoughts/expectations going into shifts metagame, we shall see how true those happen to be. In either case i'm excited to finally have a big shake up and to not think about torn sequences anymore, and there's suddenly so much more stuff we can try! On this note I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on these changes and what you're excited to try in the new metagame, so if anyone feels like posting those in this thread i'll gladly read through everything. Happy shifts metagame everyone, have fun!

 

[passion]

short(?) stream of consciousness type of post before i have 2 run 2 class in 30 mins. this is likely the biggest shift we have seen in the history of the tier and i am curious about the potential effects going forward. i cannot say that i am jealous of those currently participating in scl whatsoever! torn-t for a majority of this gen acted as the arbiter of what could even potentially be good. this role will likely eventually be passed on and we will have a new oppressive mon that centralizes the tier (maybe not to quite this extent tho). for the time being i would say in this shift there are many winners but not many true losers in the traditional sense. the primary losers will likely be those who suffer in response to the increased viability of the truest winners. take for example the recent chesnaught usage in response to the most recent bout of cornerstone mass hysteria. is chesnaught now even more viable with torn out of the tier? will cornerstone finally have a truly meta relevant counter? will you assholes start randomly using play rough? who knows. though niche this is just a random example i could think of off the top of my head of increased viability of one mon potentially effecting another. its possible this does not even pan out and cornerstone is not impacted whatsoever. i mean cornerstone itself has much to gain from tornadus-ts removal after all.
the most obvious TRUE winners of this shift are the fast and strong special attackers/setup mons barely being kept in check by the existence of torn. i could see mons like latios and zarude maybe cornerstone and weavile soon being on the chopping block for potential bans. however, i am not ready to say anything for certain based on theorycraft because this change is that impactful in my mind. afterall the meta is so much more open to respond to these threats that seem like they would be broken with torn gone. does that make sense? yes it is easy to look at the potential offensive mons that break with no torn but i think certain defensive leaning mons like skeledirge, cobalion, skarm, and maybe even like sinistcha as well as a few struggling pivots like rotom-w, sandy shocks, and slither wing have improved viability as well.

all of this to say that i know a lot of dramatic, first take driven reactions are brewing from this shift and i am sure it will be a lot of fun! however i implore everybody to give the meta some time to develop before we jump to needlessly fast quick bans and suspect tests ^_^.

 

[Catcus]

Happy October and Happy Shifts! And boy these are big ones

- Torn leaving makes this almost a brand new game. The mon ruled against bulkier styles, bulkier set-up, and basically anything that couldn't outspeed or threaten it with para. Towards the end of it's tenure it really become a sort of blanket check to almost everything in the tier. We had fucking Bellibolt as a major presence just for it (which for the record i don't think belli dies post torn but it'll drop off a good bit.) So much gets the chance to be used now that a the speedy bird doesn't immediately ruin it. Prepare for some crazy stuff.

- Gonna miss them. I remember thinking that we had like no major fire type attackers before tran, so I'm not sure if anyone can pick up the slack now. Also now the contact punishing game is a lot weaker (hense me still having hope for mr belli.) Tran similarly to torn kinda semichecked a big chunk of the tier. Whether it was good at the job or not, people would throw it in on anything from kix to lati to even rockpon (this one didn't work.) U-turn bots rejoice, contact mon cry tears of joy.

- Sticky web fans finally get to consistently set webs so they can slow down like 2 mons at most per game.

- Honestly we just lost a big speed control option, bulky teams look much better and thus the more passive checks can exist more freely, and it matches up well into a lot of the mons i'm scared of post-torn. I'm actually kinda hopeful that weavile will be a healthy presence. Call me Optimistic i guess, but idk I think we have a good few options to handle it, and there's def a needed role for it here that it can fill.

- We did guys, now just watch ru for who will be the next top tier and steal it too hahahaahaha

- yeah idk why it dropped to begin with

In terms of winners, I've been hyping up a lot lol, and I think fits into the new meta well. is super scary now and looks a whole lot more free. looks terrifying now along with (who was already pushing it if we're honest). One mon I think is under-talked about rn is . It's much harder to prevent it setting up now and it can rip though a ton of teams. also loves torn leaving and matches up well into a couple of the improved threats. Overall though, try and experiment rn! The floodgates have opened for a ton of mons and there's a lot to figure out. So have fun!

 

[ThatOneApple]

Shifts Time, and this is a big one

Rises
- Tbh even though I didnt hate it like a lot of other people did, I was getting kinda bored of the tier so this big change should spice things up a bit. Hard to say what exactly wins and loses from this because its just a massive shake up as a whole, with its competition, things it checked, and generally slower paced mons all getting buffs from it, so we're gonna need to see how that all shakes out. Probably gonna be at least one or two bans as a result of this leaving but im interested to see where things go regardless.

- Well there goes the last offensive fire (Harc is really not gonna like the bulk guys that rise up post torn methinks). Its a shame because it was a nice strong mon that could punish Lokix shenanigans but beyond that I dont think it leaving is a massive deal. However, it does kinda open up our options for waters a little more.

Speaking of which, I'd like to say that from a first impression of building this new tier is that our options for Waters and Steels feel a lot more open without them needing to check these guys or take Knock Off from torn or let Tran in for free. As a result my "winners" section will probably has a bunch of random ones lol.

Drops

- Hey look a nice speed control option. I honestly think this might be more manageable than it was with Torn here because there isnt a dumbass bird on the screen half the time giving it 17 bajillion opportunities. In any case, ive been having fun building with it and itll probably be a nice source of speed in this Tornless society.

- Mom look webs are viable again.

Rise to UU

- Operation: Steal Gzap was a success, also hey another speed control option. Was probably gonna rise in the post torn world anyways so its probably nice it happened now rather than later (led to 2 qbs in RU tho lol). In any case, this is gonna be our fast Flying with Knock Off of choice even if it gets locked into it. Still a nice clicker option though, especially if Salamence rises up to take up Torn's "defensive Flying" role.

- More speed control, and another probable winner of no Torn. Fast encore and more knock off and u turn, band sets are scary, blah blah blah everyone gets the idea.

Winners:

Most Waters and Steels
Torn and Tran leaving makes these both significantly more open, as they no longer need to worry about Torn knocking them every game or Tran trapping them or coming in on and nuking them. I've already been tossing Rachi on teams as a Latios check and its felt great.


They win for the same reason, no mon thats faster with regen and U-turn harassing them making it a lot easier for them to break.

Slower Paced mons as a whole
No more torn to Taunt them and stay alive forever w Regen.

Losers:

- No torn :( (Prolly still nice for Gzap and Weav tho)

 

[Crushy]

Howdy fellers! Some Post Shifts ramblings:

It's cool to see Tornadus-T reclaim it's OU title after such a bizarre generation landed it in UU for a while. Torn will be missed as a super splashable building option, but it is also a relief that something with its level of influence no longer impacts the tier as well.

Heatran has moved around both tiers all generation and am overall unsurprised it rose back up. It was a very devastating Mon to face, although it was a convenient presence that kept quite a few things in check, so it'll be interesting to see what all comes of its departure.

I wasn't a big fan of the previous Weavile meta and I can't say I'm too excited to have it in the tier again. It's a powerhouse that gatekeeps just about every speed tier and tends to heavily warp the tier around itself, which could end up making it more difficult to account for some of the other lethal mons in the tier.

Araquanid is a unique Mon for the tier in giving webs a good setter, but I think also just running it as an offensive Mon it'll definitely catch some teams off guard, neat addition overall.

There's a lot of winners that benefit from a no Torn/Tran meta. There's a few that have already been mentioned (think the meta as a whole will revolve around having the most influence, but there's other I think are worth bringing attention to.

Like every defensive Mon ever ? etc. has a lot more freedom with these shifts so I think bulkier team structures will be around a lot more. Bellibolt is a weird case of losinf a huge static target, while gaining other big static target in Weavile, I think it still has a real place in the tier.


Cool to see Zapdos-G and Ogerpon officially rise and definitely benefit from webs being in the tier now. Manaphy is another big winner for the webs playstyle and it'll be fun to see the creative routes people take with it. Serperior is another Mon that likes webs around and while it lost a couple of great glare targets, the lack of these targets give it the potential to snowball a bit easier, though sub shenanigans do need to be weary of Weavile's mutli-hit moves. Jirachi is a cool newer trend people are experimenting with and it definitely loves one less knock threat on top of no heatran really freeing up it's versatility in being able to go defensive or offensively pivot, definitely a unique steel type that improves in this meta. Tyranitar I think is an interesting case having a few less mons that can really immediately threaten it is nice for it so I expect it to still be doing some serious damage and soft checking a bunch of different mons in the tier as well, but I would argue that sand gets a little worse as a playstyle in this meta especially since Snow stuff might be more prevalent too. I think Breloom has a lot of potential in this meta too. Bisharp has the defensive profile and offensive presence to really thrive in a webs meta, so I could see this being a great mon too. Hoodra seems like an interesting pick for this meta as well in losing a prominent knock off threat and notable wall in Heatran, so I could see this filling a role for a special wall in the tier that has great coverage.


The base 105-125 speed tier zone is interesting to think about since not having to worry about torn and spdef tran is a huge benefit to many of the ghosts for example, but Weavile and the threat of Greninja as well both kinda continue to gatekeep that speed tier so it's a subtle change that will also dictate a lot of what's actually usable in that range. I feel like grasses/fairies/bugs as a whole get so much better in this meta.


I see a lot of people hyping up Comfey and like while it's probably okay, legit every other fairy in the tier also got a lot better and the others are also way less tera reliant to actually do stuff. Y'all may as well just run cm Enam-T who doesn't have to tera for good coverage and has a much easier time clicking vs teams now too. Gardevoir just became one of the best speed control options in the tier and definitely appreciates how much easier it is to moonblast stuff now and will definitely benefit from a lot of the expected trends that'll come up from a Weavile meta. Azumarill's typing is very unique for this meta and I think there's a lot more that can be explored for it beyond just like Belly Drum or choices sets, I wouldn't fully discredit it's potential for this meta. Tinkaton definitely adapts just fine against some of the top tier mons and is also one of the more consistent ways of removing Weavile's boots and will also like not pickpocketing Torn's AV anymore, but even offensive SD sets will definitely thrive in this meta. Fezandipiti is another huge winner of these shifts in having one less consistent anti-toxic chain switch in in Heatran and one less Taunt threat from Torn too. Great defensive and utility profile overall and even offensive sets have a little more freedom in this meta too. I just don't really see the point in running Comfey over any other fairy with an actual defensive profile and better movesets. Even as a tera blast user, there's much better picks to utilize tera. Mimikyu likes no heatran around and may find it's place on Offensive structures, but maybe even for trick room as well


Every bug basically benefits from the shifts as well. Lokix had dipped a bit this last meta, but it definitely likes not having to worry about two difficult checks to get around. Araquanid and Slither Wing were already talked about a bit, tho I think it's also worth mentioning Sun as a playstyle loves Heatran's departure. I think one of the biggest sleeper picks of this meta will probably be Yanmega both as a solid speed control option and excellent tera/tera blast user that I feel has the move pool to really pop off against most of the mons in the tier. Ribombee is another Mon that'll probably make a slight comeback both as a web setter option, but I think just pivot or even quiver dance sets got a lot better too and it's also a fairy/but that can utilize tera blast extremely well. Venomoth is a little better now too considering Tinks might not be running lefties as often, although no sleep powder definitely hurts, but it does have some cool options and does give offense a random Toxic Spikes absorber. Heracross is another Mon I've messed with before that is honestly neat. Guts + Trailblaze is one thing it has over Conk though arguably not as splashable as the former and the other fightings types in the tier.

Overall, I feel like these shifts are a net positive and give life to every playstyle, though the fear of just having way too many things to account for still remains. Excited to see how it develops. That is all for now! :]