• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Format Discussion Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion

1753819868855.png

:(
 
This is my personal VR for the Pokemon in Super Staff Bros Ultimate. I will only be explaining my rationale behind the Pokemon at the very top (brokens) and the Pokemon at the very bottom (C and D). The Pokemon within each A subcategory (A+, A, A-) can be somewhat moved around, so I won't be explaining them much aside from general trends.

1760067204816.png



Broken and Uncompetitive Pokemon (order might be whack because I'm lazy)
:flygon: BROKEN
Starting off with the most broken Pokemon to exist in this tier, we have Arya. Having a speed of 394 AND Punk Rock while Mega evolved with Dragon, Ground, and Bug sound moves means that the majority of the Pokemon in this metagame simply get OHKOed by its excellent STAB. Arya's signature move definitely lives up to its name, as for the following 2 turns after it is used, literally Anyone can be killed besides xy01 and R8 (easyonthehills and blazeofvictory and Tico get 2HKOed). Arya should be nerfed by reducing its speed, giving it a different ability that isn't Punk Rock (maybe Tinted Lens?), and/or making Anyone can be killed give a +1 SpA boost instead of +2.
+2 252 SpA Punk Rock Flygon Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Wobbuffet: 684-805 (117.1 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2418700341 (snake and Arya destroy me with webs and forcing out Isaiah)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2162478208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2457033237
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2459787382

:beedrill-mega: BROKEN
Beowulf can sweep your entire team with the right set (Earthquake/Volt Tackle/Glacial Lance moment), meaning that only really Peary, berry, Rumia, Bert122 (ew) can really wall all of its sets. I don't think any of us actually believe Mega Beedrill actually needed Intrepid Sword and some of the most powerful coverage options along with a Buzzer Stinger Counter to ensure that even Irpachuza cannot stop it just to be viable. This Pokemon OHKOes and 2HKOes far too many offensive Pokemon, and doesn't even require setup, unlike Arya. Beowulf should be nerfed by changing its base ability to not be Intrepid Sword (maybe Sturdy so it can switch in?) and removing Earthquake, Glacial Lance, or Volt Tackle from its moveset.
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 544-640 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flamigo: 374-440 (122.6 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2447930890 (Beowulf easily KOs 2 Pokemon and chips down Clem)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2453367919 (I only kill Beowulf because phoopes has a Focus Sash)

:medicham-mega: BROKEN
Isaiah has the same problem as Beowulf, although to a much lesser degree due to its lower speed. However, unlike Beowulf, Isaiah has extremely high BP STAB moves, with Simple Gameplan reaching ~123 BP under Psychic Terrain, Close Combat having 120 BP, and having excellent coverage of Knock Off and Triple Axel. You still need an actual resisting defensive wall to stop it, although its low speed means that faster Pokemon can revenge kill it. However, Knock Off heavily cripples the defense of many Eviolite walls, even if Isaiah is forced to switch out. Psychic Surge also stops calmvibes and Kry from taking out Isaiah with priority moves. Isaiah should be nerfed by changing its base ability to not be Psychic Surge (maybe Intimidate?) and maybe giving it Ice Punch instead of Triple Axel.
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax in Psychic Terrain: 480-565 (91.6 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune in Psychic Terrain: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I need to find more games)

:zoroark-hisui: UNCOMPETITIVE
I already explained my thoughts about HiZo before, but its capability to Scapegoat a Pokemon and have Last Respects make this Pokemon extremely uncompetitive. HiZo can literally sweep teams with only 2 Pokemon dead because that is how ridiculously strong Last Respects is. Whenever HiZo hits the field, it FORCES you to attack it, otherwise, you are likely getting swept completely. Oh, you instead have a more defensive Pokemon currently in play, such as Audiino, Scotteh, Sulo, skies, etc? gg bro. No offensive Pokemon can stop HiZo once it is set up besides calmvibes, Kry, Corthius, and the stat-stealing Pokemon. HiZo should be nerfed by making it have Poltergeist/Shadow Claw instead of Last Respects and reducing the power of Scapegoat by raising its offenses and speed by 1 stage, 2 stages, or 3 stages only.
InkyDarkBird

Format Discussion Post in thread 'Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion'

I really think the Hizo buff was the wrong buff it should've received. As of this message, it is 11th from last in terms of descending z-score. The only thing the buff did was make it even more of a matchup fish Pokemon that you can now use to win with only 1 fainted Pokemon while the opponent is usually helpless if they happen to have a stallmon. I personally think Hizo should get more base bulk instead and for Scapegoat to be nerfed to the point where it is weaker than pre-March 29 Hizo.

Example:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2350694741
Opponent...
  • Like

:sableye-mega: UNCOMPETITIVE
Bert122 has an insane defensive profile and a very strong Pestering Assault, which would be somewhat fine if it weren't for the fact that it could deal damage with Knock Off while spamming a stronger version of Protect. Paired with Will-O-Wisp, Scatter and Shatter makes Bert122 almost unkillable without having your Pokemon randomly lose their items or get burned while attempting to KO Bert122. Playing around this Pokemon is borderline impossible as can easily stack status onto your Pokemon with bad luck and will keep chipping all of your Pokemon until they are KOed. Bert122 should be nerfed by making Pestering Assault not use Confuse Ray nor Knock Off and instead use Cotton Spore and Baby-Doll Eyes and Scatter and Shatter should not lower the opponent's Pokemon's offensive stats.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2418710690
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2456529981

:fidgit: BROKEN
snake spams hazards while pivoting while Poisoning the opponent while removing your own side's hazards and has Revival Blessing to revive any valuable sweeper Pokemon that could have been KOed early (kolohe, Blitz, etc). The ridiculous role compression snake offers with Concept Relevant makes it almost unpunishable, as it can freely come in on slower Pokemon, set 2 random hazards and Poison the opponent, and immediately pivot out so that the opponent is unable to check snake. This is extremely brainless gameplay that involves almost no skill whatsoever. snake should be nerfed by making Concept Relevant set only 1 random hazard and not Poison the opponent, as well as being changed into a Poison move so that Steel Pokemon can wall it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2434098287 (this is ridiculous)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2418700341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2421586315

:annihilape: BROKEN
pants is a newer Pokemon so I haven't had much experience with it, but I still believe it is broken due to having Dragon Dance and Taunt + Wish in 1 move. Annihilape is already an Uber because of Rage Fist, so buffing it with TauntWish and Dragon Dance seems egregious. By easily countering most status moves, having a great defensive and offensive typing, being able to have reliable recovery, having an option to boost its speed, and punishing switching out with Drifting, pants becomes a devastating setup sweeper. pants should be nerfed by having Bulk Up/Howl instead of Dragon Dance and Drifting should not have Stakeout to allow it to be more easily countered.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2414670715

:sudowoodo: UNCOMPETITIVE
The only reason WigglyTree is here is because last time I checked, Perfect Mimic is still bugged and can be called consecutively without having an increased fail chance. This is incredibly uncompetitive when paired with Shell Smash and Liechi Berry, as one wrong prediction of Perfect Mimic can lead to your entire team getting swept. Fix Perfect Mimic to have an increasing chance of failure when used consecutively.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2340097385
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2416383433

:shuckle: BROKEN
Lets go shuckles is broken due to Persistent giving it a 6 turn Trick Room to wreak havoc on the opponent’s team. Having around 600 Atk after using Shuckle Power is extremely difficult to stop when almost all of your Pokemon are going to move second against Lets go shuckles and somehow have to live Diamond Storm, Headlong Rush, and/or Glacial Lance, and Lets go shuckles can always switch out with a powerful U-Turn and set up Shuckle Power later in a poor matchup. Special Pokemon can’t even deal with Lets go shuckles that well, as it retains its special defensive after using Shuckle Power, allowing it to tank special hits easily. Lets go shuckles should be nerfed by replacing Persistent with a different ability so that it has much less time to destroy opposing teams.
(need more games)

:scovillain: BROKEN
Solaros & Lunaris is broken because it is too fast and is almost unwallable with Growth and mindmelt as a Fire Psystrike. This Pokemon is almost always going to be under the Sun whenever you face it. Solaros & Lunaris should be nerfed by reducing the base power of mindmelt by 10-20% and reducing the speed boost Solaros & Lunaris gain from the Sun.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2424445063 (uncounterable cleanup)


:swoobat: BROKEN AND UNCOMPETITIVE
AuzBat is one of the worst Pokemon to play against. Magic Guard Focus Sash guarantees that it will use Prep Time, which should not have been buffed at all. Similar to HiZo, AuzBat forces you to attack with whatever Pokemon you currently have in play, although it has a much worse defensive typing. However, it has a much higher chance of successfully using Prep Time, unlike HiZo, so you can easily lose the game on the spot due to how broken +2 STAB Stored Power and Hurricane are. This Pokemon involves almost no skill to play. AuzBat should be nerfed by not having Focus Sash or nerfing Prep Time to not boost defense nor special defense.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2395941627 (AuzBat destroys berry and would have swept if not Sturdy)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2416607792 (AuzBat probably could have swept if I used another Prep Time)

:wiglett: BROKEN
Ganjafin is broken due to having Strength Sap, Eviolite, wigglingstrike, and Gambling Addiction. Strength Sap stops physical setup sweepers, Eviolite gives unnecessary extra bulk to an already tanky 100/100/100 defenses Pokemon, wigglingstrike chips down opposing Pokemon and sets a layer of Spikes with almost no downside, and Gambling Addiction allows it to almost always guarantee an OHKO or severe damage with Final Gambit. Ganjafin is extremely frustrating to play against because its high speed means that most physical attackers cannot revenge kill Ganjafin before it easily Strength Saps them. Furthermore, offensive Pokemon that can switch into Ganjafin will have to deal with wigglingstrike’s Salt Cure and Spikes chip damage, upon which Ganjafin can easily switch out and then the Ganjafin check just took chip damage for almost no reason. Even if you do manage to significantly damage Ganjafin, if it isn’t OHKOed, it will just turn into a Final Gambit monster with around 400 HP, enough to OHKO the majority of offensive Pokemon. With Ganjafin, you are almost always trading 2 Pokemon to take it down. Ganjafin should be nerfed by lowering its speed, making wigglingstrike not set Spikes, and/or giving it Recover/Heal Order instead of Strength Sap.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2122284068
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2446436153 (cancer)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2175610280

:mewtwo-mega-x: broken?
Hecate might not be broken in reality, but I just think STAB Photon Geyser and Drain Punch and a weirder Acupressure are too strong on a Pokemon with 190 base Atk.

Now the worst Pokemon in the format:
:wailord:
waves is complete trash. The whale thinks it can mimic Kyogre, but horribly fails at doing so with an extremely underwhelming signature move, tepid offenses, and geriatric speed. waves gets 2HKOed by almost every offensive Pokemon in this meta due to its atrocious defensive stats and is almost never firing off a max power Water Spout. A regular Gen 9 Random Battles Pokemon is better than waves. waves should be buffed by increasing the base power of Torrential Drain to 90 BP, increasing both its defensive stats to 90, invest its speed EVs into defense or special defense, increasing its special attack to 110, and replacing Water Spout with Origin Pulse.

:snorlax:
easyonthehills may seem to be a powerful Pokemon, but it suffers from the same problem as waves of being extremely slow and having a mediocre signature move. Snack Time taking 2 turns to execute is already allowing the opponent to damage or set up on easyonthehills, and holding with Life Orb means that easyonthehills is worn down extremely fast, despite being a bulky Pokemon. easyonthehills should be buffed by reworking Snack Time to not take 2 turns to execute, heal only 25% per turn for 3 turns, and give only +1 attack and defense.

:applin:
Apple is just a worse version of coolcodename and Appletun a la Mode: worse typing, weaker STAB moves, lower speed, a terrible signature move, and a bad ability. Wopple or Flopple is an extremely unreliable setup move due to inflicting self-confusion and lowering your own stats, which easily allows opponents to KO Apple. Leech Seed is borderline useless as most Pokemon deal more damage to Apple than it can heal and the chip damage provided by Leech Seed is offset by Grassy Terrain. Apple should be buffed by reworking Wopple or Flopple to have a 70% chance to raise your stats (eliminate the confusing the opponent part) and a 30% chance to lower your stats and confuse yourself and Leech Seed should be replaced with Draco Meteor to allow it to damage tankier Pokemon more effectively.

:hatterene:
ausma, ausma, ausma… Discordual and I have bitterly debated about this Pokemon, yet I find it trash primarily due to its poor bulk and the fact that Sigil’s Storm almost never triggers one of the special effects besides Trick Room because opponents are almost always going to attack ausma, let alone Cascade transforming ausma into a Mismagius before ausma gets KOed. In fact, I didn’t even know what the Fennekin shown in the /ssb ausma command was even supposed to mean until Discordual told me. ausma is a slow Pokemon that isn’t bulky, just like waves, although it is stronger offensively. ausma should be buffed to have 85 HP so it can actually tank hits and trigger more special effects of Sigil’s Storm.

:greedent:
za is just the embodiment of RNG hax. It doesn’t do much damage otherwise. It shouldn’t get buffed because that only makes it even more uncompetitive.

:pichu:
Hydrostatics is extremely frail to the point that Eviolite doesn’t matter. I fail to understand what exactly Hydrostatics is meant to so, because in every game I’ve seen it in, it just triggers Sturdy and maybe paralyzes the opposing attacker, without doing much else. It doesn’t help that it’s base special attack is pitifully 50, so it really cannot 1v1 many Pokemon. Hydrostatics needs significant buffs to its defense, special defense, and special attack in order to be usable.

:klinklang:
Having Sheer Cold and Gear Grind (nobody is using this) as your only offensive moves should be enough to explain why this Pokemon is in C tier. It can still pull off extremely uncompetitive plays, so it should not be buffed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2397959021

Other suggestions:
Nerf Rumia's physical bulk and make Midnight Bird only increase its special attack by 1 stage.
Make xy01 only apply regular Poison with Poisonous Wind instead of Toxic.
Remove Bitter Malice from frostyicelad's movepool. It is a useless move and the entire reason why frostyicelad is in B tier.
aegii should be nerfed in some way. It can instantly win games sometimes by using Equip Aegislash and getting an attack boost with Unburden and increased critical hit chance.
 
1760261272812.png


I'm also coming in with my own tier list - The tier list is mostly ordered, and I would also like to highlight some particularly broken and bad mons.

:Jumpluff:
I don't know how this guy escaped Inky's list, but he went from broken to horrendous - this mon cannot force a switch to save his life, and so loses it without using a single move because he's so frail and pathetic. The best use for him is almost always to spam air slash until he misses or fails the flinch, but that means he rarely does much in any given game. On the occasion he actually does get off a successful solidarity AND isn't facing a mon with a sound move/magic guard (Mycellium Might is useless here by the way, since the only mon in the format with magic bounce also has magic guard), he's actually decently threatening, but the extraordinary difficulty of this achievement makes him easily bottom of F tier.

:Wailord:
No notes, this pokémon has no reliable water STAB, is slow, frail, vulnerable to all entry hazards, and torrential drain is a waste of a moveslot because it's so weak AND Waves has such a high HP stat, that it barely restores anything. It is occasionally able to be threatening against a slower pokemon (e.g. Quag), which allows it to get some good damage or even a KO, but this is rarely worth the effect.

:Emboar:
This pokémon is a monster in trick room, but good luck outside of that! The excellent traits of very strong moves and coverage with no drawbacks is undercut by his frailty and glacial pace. Many defensive pokemon outspeed Emboar02, and every other offensive mon does too. The excellent damage is undercut by the opponent's ability to switch around - insert boar pun here helps with this somewhat, but such a move is better suited to a pokémon that will have multiple opportunities to switch in, which Emboar02 rarely does. In short, too easy to OHKO, and not quite effective enough once he actually does come in.

:Snorlax:
Another pokémon best used by ignoring the signature move - Snack Time's 2 turn effect is far too abusable, and not that great even when you manage to pull it off. This pokémon is a ZU mon with no changes outside of the signature, and it really shows. Vulnerable to all hazards, to any strength sappers, to any pokémon able to 2HKO it without being OHKO'd back (i.e. most pokémon). Toxic immunity is nice though!

:Vespiquen:
A true fall from grace, from one of the best mons in Super Staff Bros 4 :Uxie: to a mon I would choose to sack over almost any other. Immunity to almost all hazards is great, and something Felucia would've KILLED for last gen, but it just isn't worth the significant loss in stats and awful defensive typing. Rigged dice is still a great move, but Felucia rarely lives long enough to use it, and frequently folds to one or two attacks. Regenerator doesn't help as much as it should, as Felucia often requires full health or close to it in order to survive an attack (if at all), meaning you can often switch into one attack, get forced out, and never get your health back as you instead give switch-in opportunities to other, more useful pokémon. Red card can be useful, taunt can be good against slow defensive mons, but even with the +1 speed, Felucia is very slow.
:Dhelmise:
Spectral thief sounds cool, but this is another mon undercut by poor stats. The basic strategy is to hope the opponent gets the 25% miss chance then deal some damage with EMP. Ranked higher because the defensive typing has some utility, although still not great, and the reward of EMP is worth the risk, but spectral thief rarely sees use and with the low stats, will never realistically countersweep. Sneak is good for revenge killing pokémon on 1 HP, and horn leech is... grass STAB.

:Avalugg: :Avalugg-Hisui:
Surprise surprise, another pokémon who is slow and weak in F tier. Melting point is cool, and a fire immunity is nice, but does little to overcome Avalugg's many other weaknesses. Clem is too slow to decide which forme it gets to be in against any given enemy, meaning the opponent can choose which mon to send in and target whichever defensive side is currently pathetically low. This issue is made significantly worse by the fact that Clem's only decently strong move is the tableflip, with the other moves only realistically being able to threaten frail mons weak to them - earth power is the strongest option by far, at only 90 BP. Tableflip changing typing on tera is great for catching an enemy off-guard, but generally means you have wasted your tera on Clem. Fortuately, Avalugg at least has boots and high defence, so can use that to function as a one-time check to some swords dancers.

:Typhlosion:
Finally, for now, SexyMalasada. This mon is a regular Typhlosion, which is a ZU pokémon, that gains health from a life orb instead of losing it. But wait, you say, it transforms into Typhlosion-H under 50%! Wow, now it's a PU pokémon, but with a weaker ghost STAB. Aura sphere isn't particularly useful coverage for a fire type, 109 SpA isn't particularly high, and 90 BP flamethrower isn't particularly strong. Having no STAB on hexadecimal fire most of the time is far from ideal, since while ghost may be a great STAB, it isn't great coverage, and generally you just struggle to get good mileage out of him. Compare to :Delphox: Trace, who has a similar stat spread and is also a life orb calm mind special attacking fire type, but makes up for it with a stronger, 100% burn rate fire move to effectively make it bulkier, a fully reliable secondary STAB which punishes sacks, magic guard to ignore rocks and switch into toxic, and recover to safely set up on defensive pokémon alongside magic guard.

:Fidgit:
This mon is not ok. This pokémon abuses his decent bulk, good speed, and insane signature move to come in repeatedly and cover your entire side with hazards. It's unblockable (outside of Gligar), poisons your pokémon, clears your hazards (so you can switch in for free again), and gets Snake out of harm's way in the process. This isn't even to mention the other VERY useful utility - 6 turn tailwind is great, taunt is also very useful for shutting down certain mons, and allows you to shut down certain mons trying to take advantage of the somewhat passive nature of concept relevant (I mean it still attacks and poisons you, but it won't, you know, kill you). But the real cherry on top is revival blessing, which allows you to make such insane plays as concept revelant > sack > concept relevant > sack > revive (maybe twice!) > sack Snake > sweep. Even in situations where Snake would otherwise not be as useful (e.g. Gligar on the opposing team), revival blessing is an extremely powerful move, and honestly having a fast reviver in a format where some pokémon are better than others is very powerful by itself.

I could go on, but long story short, concept relevant does far too much, far too easily.

:Duskull:
Rumia was broken, and then got a change in the most recent patch. Great! But wait, no, Rumia got buffed in the last patch. This pokémon is absolutely unbreakable on the physical side, and is far from passive. Midnight bird allows Rumia to quickly turn that low SpA stat into a very threatening one in a single turn, while boasting one of the best offensive types in the game. Prankster strength sap on top of all this really makes it a terror - even if you manage to chip it down significantly with one of the hypothetical physical mons able to threaten Rumia (i.e. a strong dark type, which is immune to strength sap and resists both STABS), Rumia STILL wins the 1v1 and then recovers the low HP immediately to full with strength sap. But let's be real, if black glasses Yveltal with sharpness boosted ceaseless edge loses the 1v1, I don't know which dark type you're going to use.

The ease with which this mon switches in and forces out (or kills) any physical attackers means the low SpD is less egregious than it could be - special attacks must switch in (and potentially get crippled by mortal spin, or take big damage from midnight bird), and then must STAY in to not invite Rumia back.
:Arcanine-Hisui:
I'm surprised to not see this mon on InkyDarkBird's list. Rissoux leverages a decent defensive typing and solid bulk, combined with the excellent, complimentary defensive tera of grass to set up with Call of the Wild. It then uses a 100% accurate, reckless boosted, no recoil, +1 head smash and flare blitz to absolutely obliterate any pokémon in its way. Very few pokémon can live the 180 BP +1 STAB head smash from a pokémon with 115 attack, and even fewer can do so while not collapsing to the nicely complimentary, also very powerful flare blitz. This pokémon is almost always one turn away from winning a game on the spot, and doesn't even require the set up to be threatening.

:Scizor:
A very similar mon to Rissoux, except it trades in just a little bit of power for a great defensive typing and the ability to set up while attacking. Unburden ensures no mon in the format can naturally outspeed it, and equip aegislash doubles as both a strong attack AND a great setup move. The lansat berry is the final nail in the coffin, as it allows Aegii to simply crit though potential checks with ease. While this mon absolutely only gets one opportunity to sweep thanks to the nature of unburden, it really only needs that one to either sweep or leave a massive dent in your team, and that's an opportunity easily afforded to it.

:Sableye: :Sableye-Mega:
This pokémon is the most passive mon you'll ever see - no attacks outside of metal burst, and the other moves are wisp, recover, and a king's shield clone that also switches out out. But don't let that moveset fool you into thinking you can get away with not attacking it, or trying to set up on it, because at the end of every turn, Bert will try and knock off, taunt, torment, soak, and confuse you. With 33% accuracy, odds are 'only' two of these will hit you, but these are crippling moves! Knock off is particularly egregious as it allows Bert to straight up KO opponents just for switching in. Scatter and Shatter is a win-win for Bert almost every time - either you use a move on him, allowing a free switch-in to a counter while debuffing your own mon, or you don't, and Bert gets a free knock off and taunt and confuse ray and whatever he's able to hit you with.

All of this would be more managable if it wasn't for one of the simplest mechanics that Bert abuses - switching. Trying to switch into a counter? Well, your 'counter' just got knocked off and confused, and then Bert switched out. Your opponent switches into a mega evolved Bert? Ability activates at the end of the turn he switches in on. Basically, using moves at the end of every turn is inheritantly incredible strong. Also, haven't mentioned it yet but worth mentioning, he is bulky, so he can just sit and recover spam to repeatedly fish for his ability.

:Medicham-Mega:
A 328 speed delete button. Not much more to say about this mon, Mega Medicham is too strong with such high base power moves and perfect coverage, and the psychic terrain Isaiah sets themself powers up their psychic STAB, and means priority moves can't be used to revenge or counter them.

:Sudowoodo:
Just fix perfect mimic, it's not healthy to have a pokémon that you can't safely attack ever, but can murder you with head smash and set up with shell smash if you don't attack it.

:Wobbuffet:
Basically a free 2 for 1 with shadow tag to ensure you hit the right target. Occasionally this will 'only' be one for one, depending on the opponent, but innards out on a pokémon with this much HP always always KOs the attacker, and shadow tag + encore + counter/mirror coat is what got this pokémon banned to Ubers in the first place. Super Ego Inflation (i.e. taunt) helps a lot in this regard, and ensures that any pokémon trying to take advantage of DaWoblefet with setup will instead struggle (and get that struggle countered).

:Chi-Yu: :Flygon:
Two very strong special attackers with amazing offensive typings and high base power moves, both of which are very difficult to outspeed and KO. Not quite broken tier as they both rely on OHKOing the opponent and that often requires set-up to do (Arya trades some initial power for the ability to set up with an attack, but flying types are immune), and a weakness to priority, but generally both very very strong.

:Iron Thorns:
Basically webs are really strong, since so few mons carry boots, so this mon can just auto-win games sometimes because the opponent can't deal with webs. Strong pokémon outside of that, but it's mainly the super easy unblockable webs.

:Mr. Mime:
Changing your opponent into a random pokémon is almost always as good as a KO, or better, as it can provide a free setup opportunity. This isn't blockable by dark types, as it isn't prankster boosted, just regular priority, and destiny bond or lunar dance can grab a second KO or bring back your best pokémon to full, respectively. You'll also sometimes get a free veil out of the equation too - mainly held back by lack of options outside of the one time Z-move, and the risk of switching in as you won't always pull a useful screen or protect.

:Lilligant:
Archas find its way out of F tier by the nature of the Z-move, which provides a potentially invaluable mass heal and aromatherapy for the whole team. Aside from that, too weak and frail, and quiver dance needs too many boosts to be truly threatening.

:Kecleon:
The nerf was well deserved and effective, as Yeet dab xd no longer feels immortal and able to roll through an entire team, but getting free moves at the end of the turn is still extremely powerful (See Bert122). Fake out is nicely complimentary, and cycling through the bag gives you a free paralysis, a free aurora veil, and even a reviver seed, which allows you to stay in and cripple or kill any pokémon that would otherwise kill you.

:Rapidash:
Sketch is a wasted moveslot on a pokémon nowhere near bulky enough to copy a move. Bitter blade is fine, but the healing is mostly wasted on a mon who finds it so difficult to survive hits from full. The signature being able to priority revenge kill/toxic/potentially flinch all in one moveslot, and a good speed stat are all that save this mon from F tier, but this is barely different from a regular Rapidash.
 
Last edited:
InkyDarkBird said:
InkyDarkBird

Needs Triage Thread 'Bug Report - OM'

What type of bug are you reporting? OM

What is the bug?
In Super Staff Bros Ultimate, Lyna's Magic Aura blocks Grass Gaming, despite Grass Gaming not being a status move.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2463818084 (turn 36)

Are you able to replicate it? If so, how?
Use Grass Gaming on Lyna.
I thought this bug was patched.
Click to expand...
honestly my guess here is that Grass Gaming is just recycling Sappy Seed's code, and it appears that either:
1. nobody ever got around to removing reflectable: 1 from the move flags
2. something in the move needed rewritten or reverted and reflectable: 1 got brought back when Seed was re-pasted

as for the actual removal; maybe it's just me but i've taken a sort of "don't believe anything until you've seen it for yourself" approach with this metagame anymore, and i honestly haven't seen Lyna v. Sificon enough to ever really take notice of this bug
 
slimestudios said:
honestly my guess here is that Grass Gaming is just recycling Sappy Seed's code, and it appears that either:
1. nobody ever got around to removing reflectable: 1 from the move flags
2. something in the move needed rewritten or reverted and reflectable: 1 got brought back when Seed was re-pasted

as for the actual removal; maybe it's just me but i've taken a sort of "don't believe anything until you've seen it for yourself" approach with this metagame anymore, and i honestly haven't seen Lyna v. Sificon enough to ever really take notice of this bug
Click to expand...
It's definitely present, I've seen it several times
 
InkyDarkBird said:
This is my personal VR for the Pokemon in Super Staff Bros Ultimate. I will only be explaining my rationale behind the Pokemon at the very top (brokens) and the Pokemon at the very bottom (C and D). The Pokemon within each A subcategory (A+, A, A-) can be somewhat moved around, so I won't be explaining them much aside from general trends.

View attachment 777966


Broken and Uncompetitive Pokemon (order might be whack because I'm lazy)
:flygon: BROKEN
Starting off with the most broken Pokemon to exist in this tier, we have Arya. Having a speed of 394 AND Punk Rock while Mega evolved with Dragon, Ground, and Bug sound moves means that the majority of the Pokemon in this metagame simply get OHKOed by its excellent STAB. Arya's signature move definitely lives up to its name, as for the following 2 turns after it is used, literally Anyone can be killed besides xy01 and R8 (easyonthehills and blazeofvictory and Tico get 2HKOed). Arya should be nerfed by reducing its speed, giving it a different ability that isn't Punk Rock (maybe Tinted Lens?), and/or making Anyone can be killed give a +1 SpA boost instead of +2.
+2 252 SpA Punk Rock Flygon Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Wobbuffet: 684-805 (117.1 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2418700341 (snake and Arya destroy me with webs and forcing out Isaiah)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2162478208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2457033237
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2459787382

:beedrill-mega: BROKEN
Beowulf can sweep your entire team with the right set (Earthquake/Volt Tackle/Glacial Lance moment), meaning that only really Peary, berry, Rumia, Bert122 (ew) can really wall all of its sets. I don't think any of us actually believe Mega Beedrill actually needed Intrepid Sword and some of the most powerful coverage options along with a Buzzer Stinger Counter to ensure that even Irpachuza cannot stop it just to be viable. This Pokemon OHKOes and 2HKOes far too many offensive Pokemon, and doesn't even require setup, unlike Arya. Beowulf should be nerfed by changing its base ability to not be Intrepid Sword (maybe Sturdy so it can switch in?) and removing Earthquake, Glacial Lance, or Volt Tackle from its moveset.
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 544-640 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flamigo: 374-440 (122.6 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2447930890 (Beowulf easily KOs 2 Pokemon and chips down Clem)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2453367919 (I only kill Beowulf because phoopes has a Focus Sash)

:medicham-mega: BROKEN
Isaiah has the same problem as Beowulf, although to a much lesser degree due to its lower speed. However, unlike Beowulf, Isaiah has extremely high BP STAB moves, with Simple Gameplan reaching ~123 BP under Psychic Terrain, Close Combat having 120 BP, and having excellent coverage of Knock Off and Triple Axel. You still need an actual resisting defensive wall to stop it, although its low speed means that faster Pokemon can revenge kill it. However, Knock Off heavily cripples the defense of many Eviolite walls, even if Isaiah is forced to switch out. Psychic Surge also stops calmvibes and Kry from taking out Isaiah with priority moves. Isaiah should be nerfed by changing its base ability to not be Psychic Surge (maybe Intimidate?) and maybe giving it Ice Punch instead of Triple Axel.
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax in Psychic Terrain: 480-565 (91.6 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune in Psychic Terrain: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I need to find more games)

:zoroark-hisui: UNCOMPETITIVE
I already explained my thoughts about HiZo before, but its capability to Scapegoat a Pokemon and have Last Respects make this Pokemon extremely uncompetitive. HiZo can literally sweep teams with only 2 Pokemon dead because that is how ridiculously strong Last Respects is. Whenever HiZo hits the field, it FORCES you to attack it, otherwise, you are likely getting swept completely. Oh, you instead have a more defensive Pokemon currently in play, such as Audiino, Scotteh, Sulo, skies, etc? gg bro. No offensive Pokemon can stop HiZo once it is set up besides calmvibes, Kry, Corthius, and the stat-stealing Pokemon. HiZo should be nerfed by making it have Poltergeist/Shadow Claw instead of Last Respects and reducing the power of Scapegoat by raising its offenses and speed by 1 stage, 2 stages, or 3 stages only.
InkyDarkBird

Format Discussion Post in thread 'Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion'

I really think the Hizo buff was the wrong buff it should've received. As of this message, it is 11th from last in terms of descending z-score. The only thing the buff did was make it even more of a matchup fish Pokemon that you can now use to win with only 1 fainted Pokemon while the opponent is usually helpless if they happen to have a stallmon. I personally think Hizo should get more base bulk instead and for Scapegoat to be nerfed to the point where it is weaker than pre-March 29 Hizo.

Example:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2350694741
Opponent...
  • Like

:sableye-mega: UNCOMPETITIVE
Bert122 has an insane defensive profile and a very strong Pestering Assault, which would be somewhat fine if it weren't for the fact that it could deal damage with Knock Off while spamming a stronger version of Protect. Paired with Will-O-Wisp, Scatter and Shatter makes Bert122 almost unkillable without having your Pokemon randomly lose their items or get burned while attempting to KO Bert122. Playing around this Pokemon is borderline impossible as can easily stack status onto your Pokemon with bad luck and will keep chipping all of your Pokemon until they are KOed. Bert122 should be nerfed by making Pestering Assault not use Confuse Ray nor Knock Off and instead use Cotton Spore and Baby-Doll Eyes and Scatter and Shatter should not lower the opponent's Pokemon's offensive stats.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2418710690
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2456529981

:fidgit: BROKEN
snake spams hazards while pivoting while Poisoning the opponent while removing your own side's hazards and has Revival Blessing to revive any valuable sweeper Pokemon that could have been KOed early (kolohe, Blitz, etc). The ridiculous role compression snake offers with Concept Relevant makes it almost unpunishable, as it can freely come in on slower Pokemon, set 2 random hazards and Poison the opponent, and immediately pivot out so that the opponent is unable to check snake. This is extremely brainless gameplay that involves almost no skill whatsoever. snake should be nerfed by making Concept Relevant set only 1 random hazard and not Poison the opponent, as well as being changed into a Poison move so that Steel Pokemon can wall it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2434098287 (this is ridiculous)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2418700341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2421586315

:annihilape: BROKEN
pants is a newer Pokemon so I haven't had much experience with it, but I still believe it is broken due to having Dragon Dance and Taunt + Wish in 1 move. Annihilape is already an Uber because of Rage Fist, so buffing it with TauntWish and Dragon Dance seems egregious. By easily countering most status moves, having a great defensive and offensive typing, being able to have reliable recovery, having an option to boost its speed, and punishing switching out with Drifting, pants becomes a devastating setup sweeper. pants should be nerfed by having Bulk Up/Howl instead of Dragon Dance and Drifting should not have Stakeout to allow it to be more easily countered.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2414670715

:sudowoodo: UNCOMPETITIVE
The only reason WigglyTree is here is because last time I checked, Perfect Mimic is still bugged and can be called consecutively without having an increased fail chance. This is incredibly uncompetitive when paired with Shell Smash and Liechi Berry, as one wrong prediction of Perfect Mimic can lead to your entire team getting swept. Fix Perfect Mimic to have an increasing chance of failure when used consecutively.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2340097385
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2416383433

:shuckle: BROKEN
Lets go shuckles is broken due to Persistent giving it a 6 turn Trick Room to wreak havoc on the opponent’s team. Having around 600 Atk after using Shuckle Power is extremely difficult to stop when almost all of your Pokemon are going to move second against Lets go shuckles and somehow have to live Diamond Storm, Headlong Rush, and/or Glacial Lance, and Lets go shuckles can always switch out with a powerful U-Turn and set up Shuckle Power later in a poor matchup. Special Pokemon can’t even deal with Lets go shuckles that well, as it retains its special defensive after using Shuckle Power, allowing it to tank special hits easily. Lets go shuckles should be nerfed by replacing Persistent with a different ability so that it has much less time to destroy opposing teams.
(need more games)

:scovillain: BROKEN
Solaros & Lunaris is broken because it is too fast and is almost unwallable with Growth and mindmelt as a Fire Psystrike. This Pokemon is almost always going to be under the Sun whenever you face it. Solaros & Lunaris should be nerfed by reducing the base power of mindmelt by 10-20% and reducing the speed boost Solaros & Lunaris gain from the Sun.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2424445063 (uncounterable cleanup)


:swoobat: BROKEN AND UNCOMPETITIVE
AuzBat is one of the worst Pokemon to play against. Magic Guard Focus Sash guarantees that it will use Prep Time, which should not have been buffed at all. Similar to HiZo, AuzBat forces you to attack with whatever Pokemon you currently have in play, although it has a much worse defensive typing. However, it has a much higher chance of successfully using Prep Time, unlike HiZo, so you can easily lose the game on the spot due to how broken +2 STAB Stored Power and Hurricane are. This Pokemon involves almost no skill to play. AuzBat should be nerfed by not having Focus Sash or nerfing Prep Time to not boost defense nor special defense.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2395941627 (AuzBat destroys berry and would have swept if not Sturdy)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2416607792 (AuzBat probably could have swept if I used another Prep Time)

:wiglett: BROKEN
Ganjafin is broken due to having Strength Sap, Eviolite, wigglingstrike, and Gambling Addiction. Strength Sap stops physical setup sweepers, Eviolite gives unnecessary extra bulk to an already tanky 100/100/100 defenses Pokemon, wigglingstrike chips down opposing Pokemon and sets a layer of Spikes with almost no downside, and Gambling Addiction allows it to almost always guarantee an OHKO or severe damage with Final Gambit. Ganjafin is extremely frustrating to play against because its high speed means that most physical attackers cannot revenge kill Ganjafin before it easily Strength Saps them. Furthermore, offensive Pokemon that can switch into Ganjafin will have to deal with wigglingstrike’s Salt Cure and Spikes chip damage, upon which Ganjafin can easily switch out and then the Ganjafin check just took chip damage for almost no reason. Even if you do manage to significantly damage Ganjafin, if it isn’t OHKOed, it will just turn into a Final Gambit monster with around 400 HP, enough to OHKO the majority of offensive Pokemon. With Ganjafin, you are almost always trading 2 Pokemon to take it down. Ganjafin should be nerfed by lowering its speed, making wigglingstrike not set Spikes, and/or giving it Recover/Heal Order instead of Strength Sap.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2122284068
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2446436153 (cancer)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2175610280

:mewtwo-mega-x: broken?
Hecate might not be broken in reality, but I just think STAB Photon Geyser and Drain Punch and a weirder Acupressure are too strong on a Pokemon with 190 base Atk.

Now the worst Pokemon in the format:
:wailord:
waves is complete trash. The whale thinks it can mimic Kyogre, but horribly fails at doing so with an extremely underwhelming signature move, tepid offenses, and geriatric speed. waves gets 2HKOed by almost every offensive Pokemon in this meta due to its atrocious defensive stats and is almost never firing off a max power Water Spout. A regular Gen 9 Random Battles Pokemon is better than waves. waves should be buffed by increasing the base power of Torrential Drain to 90 BP, increasing both its defensive stats to 90, invest its speed EVs into defense or special defense, increasing its special attack to 110, and replacing Water Spout with Origin Pulse.

:snorlax:
easyonthehills may seem to be a powerful Pokemon, but it suffers from the same problem as waves of being extremely slow and having a mediocre signature move. Snack Time taking 2 turns to execute is already allowing the opponent to damage or set up on easyonthehills, and holding with Life Orb means that easyonthehills is worn down extremely fast, despite being a bulky Pokemon. easyonthehills should be buffed by reworking Snack Time to not take 2 turns to execute, heal only 25% per turn for 3 turns, and give only +1 attack and defense.

:applin:
Apple is just a worse version of coolcodename and Appletun a la Mode: worse typing, weaker STAB moves, lower speed, a terrible signature move, and a bad ability. Wopple or Flopple is an extremely unreliable setup move due to inflicting self-confusion and lowering your own stats, which easily allows opponents to KO Apple. Leech Seed is borderline useless as most Pokemon deal more damage to Apple than it can heal and the chip damage provided by Leech Seed is offset by Grassy Terrain. Apple should be buffed by reworking Wopple or Flopple to have a 70% chance to raise your stats (eliminate the confusing the opponent part) and a 30% chance to lower your stats and confuse yourself and Leech Seed should be replaced with Draco Meteor to allow it to damage tankier Pokemon more effectively.

:hatterene:
ausma, ausma, ausma… Discordual and I have bitterly debated about this Pokemon, yet I find it trash primarily due to its poor bulk and the fact that Sigil’s Storm almost never triggers one of the special effects besides Trick Room because opponents are almost always going to attack ausma, let alone Cascade transforming ausma into a Mismagius before ausma gets KOed. In fact, I didn’t even know what the Fennekin shown in the /ssb ausma command was even supposed to mean until Discordual told me. ausma is a slow Pokemon that isn’t bulky, just like waves, although it is stronger offensively. ausma should be buffed to have 85 HP so it can actually tank hits and trigger more special effects of Sigil’s Storm.

:greedent:
za is just the embodiment of RNG hax. It doesn’t do much damage otherwise. It shouldn’t get buffed because that only makes it even more uncompetitive.

:pichu:
Hydrostatics is extremely frail to the point that Eviolite doesn’t matter. I fail to understand what exactly Hydrostatics is meant to so, because in every game I’ve seen it in, it just triggers Sturdy and maybe paralyzes the opposing attacker, without doing much else. It doesn’t help that it’s base special attack is pitifully 50, so it really cannot 1v1 many Pokemon. Hydrostatics needs significant buffs to its defense, special defense, and special attack in order to be usable.

:klinklang:
Having Sheer Cold and Gear Grind (nobody is using this) as your only offensive moves should be enough to explain why this Pokemon is in C tier. It can still pull off extremely uncompetitive plays, so it should not be buffed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2397959021

Other suggestions:
Nerf Rumia's physical bulk and make Midnight Bird only increase its special attack by 1 stage.
Make xy01 only apply regular Poison with Poisonous Wind instead of Toxic.
Remove Bitter Malice from frostyicelad's movepool. It is a useless move and the entire reason why frostyicelad is in B tier.
aegii should be nerfed in some way. It can instantly win games sometimes by using Equip Aegislash and getting an attack boost with Unburden and increased critical hit chance.
Click to expand...
hey i've asked for buffs and i got told NO NO NO...

Interesting read thanks for publishing!
 
Discordual said:
Zoro might have to move up the tier list - Nine Lives activates EIGHT TIMES over this match, and only didn't activate a 9th because of mold breaker on Tico.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2478127077
Click to expand...
predictably, it just resets on switch for whatever reason (please forgive the 35 turn replay) (also, Meat Grinder visually persists on Baton Pass, but does nothing until reapplied?)

since i've apparently dubbed myself this thread's requisite no-life bug tester
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top