Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

KamenOH said:
Hell, the only ones I see getting real use are Ting-Lu Fissure and maybe, real fringe, Kingambit Guillotine. The former sees minor use in VGC because it can afford to waste a turn or three, while the latter might be able to secure a cheeky kill on something it would already be able to defeat.
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ting would absolutely run fissure. not only is it one of this gen's biggest "i can afford to waste turns" guys, fissure also combines with ruination to make it incredibly stressful to safely bring in anything that can break it. nothing likes taking 50% from ruination already, and anything that's comfortable with absorbing that hit and capable of breaking ting is going to have an even harder time if it just gets instagibbed on switchin 30% of the time. mons that are looking to chip ting will also have a way harder time doing it if it can just blow them up immediately

i also think we might see fissure on dondozo. it can easily afford to sit there and sponge hits while throwing out an ohko move and praying, especially resttalk dozo variants that could conserve fissure pp, and taking out the right mon can be an instawin for the stall and fat balance teams dozo typically finds itself on. i could also see a couple garg sets choosing fissure to meme on rilla, clef, and other forms of salt cure mitigation besides gliscor. ohko moves would have real, relevant, and very unhealthy use cases in this meta, so even from a practical standpoint we can't in good faith let them in
 
Avira said:
'Cause a 1/8 chance to crit is hardly the meta-breaking thing you think it is. Yes, Ogerpon-Wellspring is quite strong offensively and hard to check defensively, but that's why you can't just rely on Zama but also need Pecharunt or a Water-resist that is neutral to or resists Grass as well, and there are good, viable mons that do the job. There are hardly any top threats in this meta that you can handle 100% of the time with just one mon, and that's not unique to Ogerpon-Wellspring. If the pro-ban crowd wants Ogerpon-Wellspring out of here, it has to demonstrate on a game-to-game basis why she's too much for the meta, either by being unhealthy, broken, or a combination of both, and the qualified demographic of OU Tiering Surveys repeatedly making Ogerpon-Wellspring less of a priority than other threats shows that the best players for the most part don't find Wellspring to be broken.
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Can u help me find some ogerpon checks since I have been struggling to for the past 2 years? You know, finding a water resist that isn't weak to grass or the fairy coverage it has but also doesnt suffer u-turn or isn't a UU grass mon that will insta lose to koff + spikes combo or any of the supposedly walls like Pecha that lately have been getting nuked by the Taunt sets, ignoring that if I start scouting around its possible 15 sets too much I might risk losing to SD + Trailblaze sets since it can setup up to 3 stats and even have recovery of all forms; isn't easy. Also you say you need to account for the high crit chances but then nom pecharunt as if it doesn't die to a crit after SD and tera? And yeah if it was for me I would ban all those top tier threats like kyurem and gambit too
 
KamenOH said:
What, are we gonna ban critical hits or non-100 accuracy moves next? I mean, what's the difference between a move landing a crit, versus a move like dynamicpunch that's a coinflip to deal massive damage? Then again, going down this line of cocaine thought leads us to whether or not OHKO moves are banworthy, and tbh I never really understood why they were banned. You can't make them any more accurate than 30%, and most of the time you will waste not just a moveslot but a whole turn. Hell, the only ones I see getting real use are Ting-Lu Fissure and maybe, real fringe, Kingambit Guillotine. The former sees minor use in VGC because it can afford to waste a turn or three, while the latter might be able to secure a cheeky kill on something it would already be able to defeat.
I don't see them getting any real use outside of those two mons, be it for 4MSS reasons or simply because they're too risky for too little a reward.
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By this logic just unban evasion moves. After all it’s possible they just end up not doing anything and your opponent still connects their hits.

OHKO moves aren’t a cheeky KO and referencing VGC as if it helps the argument doesn’t really work because people weren’t really fond of when Ting Lu and Dondozo go around throwing out moves that potentially swing a game purely off a low RNG roll, instead of winning by skill. It’s completely noninteractive gameplay. Imagine a major tournament finals being decided because the opponent brought Fissure spammers and got lucky to KO their checks resulting in their win. Not skill, just the rng rolling their way. You know how awful that would be?

And this all swings around to why some players don’t like Wellspring’s ability to crit its way through what should be solid stopgaps. This Pokémon already demands a lot of attention in the builder due to its danger and versatility, so having that prep trolled by lucky (higher odds) crits is really frustrating. There’s less wiggle room against Wellspring than many other threats, and it feels awful to lose a game that way.
 
I think it's really important to note that the option to run non-100% accurate moves is within the player's choice
Focus Miss whiffing a bajillion times is not very fun and it sucks that it's incredibly important coverage for some Pokemon but if you really wanted to, you could drop it for something more accurate
it's your decision what moves go on your Pokemon at the end of the day, and it's usually whether or not you want to sacrifice power for accuracy
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
why is this "just something we have to take into account"? what's the justification for tolerating this instead of treating it the same way we usually treat mons that can rng past their checks? how do you even take it into account when the number of checks waterpon has even without factoring in the crit is already so limited?
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The same reason why zapdos can shithouse its way through and survive through its checks because of a static proc and getting fully para'd twice in a row, but we don't ban static because it's a defensive ability

Ivy cudgel crits don't happen often enough to be a problem
 
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I'm Tapu Bulu said:
The same reason why zapdos can shithouse its way through and survive through its checks because of a static proc and getting fully para'd twice in a row, but we don't ban static because it's a defensive ability

Ivy cudgel crits don't happen often enough to be a problem
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We don't ban static because it has actual counterplay (aka: not brainlessly spamming contact moves). 1/8 isn't a lot on paper but is when the move being clicked is a free click in 95% of cases on a pokemon that doesn't have trouble getting on the field. If you want to campaign to ban static though feel free of course.

Also shoutouts to whoever else put freeze clause on the survey god bless
 
Finchinator said:
ngl I forgot about this topic entirely and then it suddenly got a decent amount of write-ins, not sure what to make of that
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maybe it's because of the increased presence of kyurem lately. i've noticed more kyurem than usual in high-level replays and on ladder (as well as using it myself) and it seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of freezes for some reason. anecdotally, i've stolen a lot more games recently based on freezing alone than someone ought to. it almost feels like something has changed mechanically somehow and freeze procs got some sort of stealth-buff, even though i know that's not possible. maybe it's because i'm using a team with both kyurem and atales? well, whatever it is, i do think freeze clause may be something worth looking into in the future. but based on the survey results i think our priority right now, if anything, should be dragonite (i still think it should be waterpon but looks like that's not happening for a while)
 
Mada said:
Can u help me find some ogerpon checks since I have been struggling to for the past 2 years? You know, finding a water resist that isn't weak to grass or the fairy coverage it has but also doesnt suffer u-turn or isn't a UU grass mon that will insta lose to koff + spikes combo or any of the supposedly walls like Pecha that lately have been getting nuked by the Taunt sets, ignoring that if I start scouting around its possible 15 sets too much I might risk losing to SD + Trailblaze sets since it can setup up to 3 stats and even have recovery of all forms; isn't easy. Also you say you need to account for the high crit chances but then nom pecharunt as if it doesn't die to a crit after SD and tera? And yeah if it was for me I would ban all those top tier threats like kyurem and gambit too
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Mada posting on the OU discussion thread is like seeing bigfoot after 2 years of inactivity.

Anyways, I second this. What separates Wellspring from a breaker like Kyurem is that Wellspring has a better defensive typing. Getting a clean switch off one of the most common mons in the tier (Mr. Tusk) isn’t a small feat. This isn’t without mentioning its ability to pivot into Prima, Wake, and especially Mola. The fact Wellspring has Synthesis means that chipping it down is off the table. It legit only needs two moves to break Ivy and Knock (plus hazards). And sure you can guess the Wellspring set based off trends, but its never obvious like with other offensive threats. I’d like to point out that Wellspring isn’t just broken into Balance, but also Offense with Trailblaze.

I personally don’t find Kyurem broken because its switch-ins are limited to pivots due to a lackluster defensive type and rocks being up severely cuts its bulk + switch-in opportunities. Its incredible at breaking holes, but playing aggro and getting rocks up is your best play against Kyu. If Kyurem still had Roost that would be a different story.
 
Looking at survey results, i assume the next course of action is going to be a Solgaleo test? There isnt enough support for another suspect and like last year with Palafin we do have a window between SCL and OST/Spl where the ladder could be used for the suspect without impacting Officials.
 
I mean the whole thing about the Likeshop is it could have been a suspect test on anything within reason*

Sure backing was on Palafin from the beginning but it could have just as easily been a destroy Kingambit brigade or something else. Im also pretty sure the Council can kind of do whatever they want with regards to making a suspect to either kill or let loose something in the tier, and do not need a likeshop to do so. Reads to me like we're just coasting and keeping an eye on things as nothing was even nearing a 4.
 
I was bored today and decided to scroll through the recent SCL replays, and to my surprise, there was 4 separate uses of Ogerpon-Teal last week, 2 of which were even against each other. Out of the four Ogerpons, two were Boots sets, one was SD, and one was Choice Band. It was surprisingly effective in its games (besides one getting stalled), so how do you feel about the Pokemon? Worthwhile sidegrade to Ogerpon-Wellspring, or just another passing fad in the tournament?
 
FayaWizard said:
I was bored today and decided to scroll through the recent SCL replays, and to my surprise, there was 4 separate uses of Ogerpon-Teal last week, 2 of which were even against each other. Out of the four Ogerpons, two were Boots sets, one was SD, and one was Choice Band. It was surprisingly effective in its games (besides one getting stalled), so how do you feel about the Pokemon? Worthwhile sidegrade to Ogerpon-Wellspring, or just another passing fad in the tournament?
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Teal Ogerpon strikes me as more of a Cleaner than a Wallbreaker due to Mono-STAB (the less neutral of Wellspring's 2 to boot), but being able to hold other items does seem like it would contribute to longevity at the expense of the 20% power boost. It's a little better equipped to make it to mid-late game with enough intact to sweep up a worn down offense or balance team. What item was the SD user holding (assuming it was not one of the two Boots), I'd be curious what it, or all 4, were aiming to do.

I think it (and to a degree Cornerstone) mainly suffer from being mutually exclusive with Wellspring, which is such a powerful piece of OU right now that they need to not simply be good, but better than it for a team's structure. Probably the most significant "casualty" of Species Clause this Gen (and maybe in the game's history amongst forms and Regionals like the Rotoms or Gapdos), I think it's a decent sidegrade that will remain at "fad" or spice usage as long as Wellspring is in the tier.
 
pika pal said:
What item was the SD user holding (assuming it was not one of the two Boots), I'd be curious what it, or all 4, were aiming to do.
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I originally wrote the "two Boots sets" as Boots Pivot so I forgot to lump in the SD user as well, but yes, the SD user did also run Heavy-Duty Boots. As for their respective use cases, the SD Ogerpon was used as a late game cleaner to finish off the last three weakened Pokemon, while the Choice Band set was actually used as an incredibly aggressive early game breaker, with ABR Tera-ing it T1 to pick up a kill against the opposing Kyurem.

If anyone's intereted, I'll link the 3 replays below:
Boots #1 vs. Stall
SD vs. Offense
Choice Band vs. Boots Mirror
 
FayaWizard said:
I was bored today and decided to scroll through the recent SCL replays, and to my surprise, there was 4 separate uses of Ogerpon-Teal last week, 2 of which were even against each other. Out of the four Ogerpons, two were Boots sets, one was SD, and one was Choice Band. It was surprisingly effective in its games (besides one getting stalled), so how do you feel about the Pokemon? Worthwhile sidegrade to Ogerpon-Wellspring, or just another passing fad in the tournament?
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I wouldn't even call it a sidegrade, it honestly feels more like a completely different mon tbh. That being said, it's honestly very good, in part because it is entirely unique in it's ability to both switch into and outrun wellspring (granted you need to tera for it to be guaranteed). I don't really like SD because I think you are better off using wellspring for that, but I think both boots and choice band sets are very good anti offense tools.

Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Spikes

This is probably my favorite set right now, lets you outspeed Kyurem and adamant Wellspring while avoiding a 2hko from +2 play rough thanks to the HP investment.
 
Mada said:
Can u help me find some ogerpon checks since I have been struggling to for the past 2 years? You know, finding a water resist that isn't weak to grass or the fairy coverage it has but also doesnt suffer u-turn or isn't a UU grass mon that will insta lose to koff + spikes combo or any of the supposedly walls like Pecha that lately have been getting nuked by the Taunt sets, ignoring that if I start scouting around its possible 15 sets too much I might risk losing to SD + Trailblaze sets since it can setup up to 3 stats and even have recovery of all forms; isn't easy. Also you say you need to account for the high crit chances but then nom pecharunt as if it doesn't die to a crit after SD and tera? And yeah if it was for me I would ban all those top tier threats like kyurem and gambit too
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There's Pecharunt with very heavy Defense investment + Foul Play and Malignant Chain since that can even survive a crit at +2 provided Ogerpon doesn't Tera, but Pecha should be used alongside Zamazenta or Dragonite since Waterpon can't be handled 100% of the time with just one mon.

There's physically defensive Goodra-Hisui, which isn't weak to Grass or Fairy, doesn't hate U-Turn, and can slow down Pokemon making contact with it through Gooey, making it useful for not just Ogerpon-Wellspring, 'cause realistically it doesn't need Sap Sipper since it 4x resists Grass. I guess it is a niche Pokemon, but it's a workable option.

There's Rillaboom with HP investment although you need a secondary check as well. Yeah, taking a U-Turn is rough, but if Wpon is U-Turn, it probably isn't SD, which significantly reduces its threat level.

There's also Volcanion with a Tera Type that resists Grass since it's immune to Wellspring's Ivy Cudgel.

I get that she has few consistent defensive checks outside of Tera Grass on a bulky mon that threatens her, but that's why many tournament players are building balances that for the most part offensively check her and limit checking it defensively since that's less reliable. Maybe you don't appreciate being forced to build this way, but that's how players have adapted to this generation with Tera. Ogerpon-Wellspring can't be U-Turn, Knock, Taunt, and Swords Dance all in one set, so you have to manage your options the best you can with the information available to you. I lean 45/55 myself towards DNB on whether Wellspring should be banned, and maybe I'd also see Waterpon as needing to be banned if Dragonite gets banned first, so it's not like I'm 100% against her being banned.

JackRG said:
Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Spikes

This is probably my favorite set right now, lets you outspeed Kyurem and adamant Wellspring while avoiding a 2hko from +2 play rough thanks to the HP investment.
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I think you mean OHKO.

+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 282-332 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
 
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Avira said:
There's Pecharunt with very heavy Defense investment + Foul Play and Malignant Chain since that can even survive a crit at +2 provided Ogerpon doesn't Tera, but Pecha should be used alongside Zamazenta or Dragonite since Waterpon can't be handled 100% of the time with just one mon.

There's physically defensive Goodra-Hisui, which isn't weak to Grass or Fairy, doesn't hate U-Turn, and can slow down Pokemon making contact with it through Gooey, making it useful for not just Ogerpon-Wellspring, 'cause realistically it doesn't need Sap Sipper since it 4x resists Grass. I guess it is a niche Pokemon, but it's a workable option.

There's Rillaboom with HP investment although you need a secondary check as well. Yeah, taking a U-Turn is rough, but if Wpon is U-Turn, it probably isn't SD, which significantly reduces its threat level.

There's also Volcanion with a Tera Type that resists Grass since it's immune to Wellspring's Ivy Cudgel.

I get that she has few consistent defensive checks outside of Tera Grass on a bulky mon that threatens her, but that's why many tournament players are building balances that for the most part offensively check her and limit checking it defensively since that's less reliable. Maybe you don't appreciate being forced to build this way, but that's how players have adapted to this generation with Tera. Ogerpon-Wellspring can't be U-Turn, Knock, Taunt, and Swords Dance all in one set, so you have to manage your options the best you can with the information available to you. I lean 45/55 myself towards DNB on whether Wellspring should be banned, and maybe I'd also see Waterpon as needing to be banned if Dragonite gets banned first, so it's not like I'm 100% against her being banned.



I think you mean OHKO.

+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 282-332 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
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2 of the Pokemon you mentioned are RU (Like you mentioned in the reply Volcanion’s RUBL but you get the point) Pokemon without reliable recovery and not splashable for just any team looking to cover their weakness to Ogerpon-Wellspring (and Volcanion can only check Wellspring by spending your Tera on it), one can’t reliably switch into Pivot Wellspring because of U-Turn and one doesn’t enjoy eating boosted Knock Off. In fact, all 4 are usually very reliant on their items (especially Volcanion for avoiding Stealth Rock damage with Heavy-Duty Boots and Rillaboom with Choice Band on those sets), so Knock Off + Hazards still does them all in fairly badly.
 
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I'm going to be honest I think out of everything going on in OU right now Wellspring continues to be the hugest issue to me. Kyu I begrudingly hate to death due to freeze, but I don't think playing against Wellspring is fun whatsoever. The mon feels like a hinderance (how many mons would be better with it gone?) on the builder and it's ability to be utility on top of its usual mash big button sets drives me crazy. At least with Woger gone the tier would feel infinitely more fulfilling to play.

It's all fun and games until one of the least fun pokemon in the tier shows up to give you the heaviest fuck you thats ever been produced.
 
SDK03 said:
2 of the Pokemon you mentioned are RU Pokemon without reliable recovery and not splashable for just any team looking to cover their weakness to Ogerpon-Wellspring (and one of the ones you mentioned can only check Wellspring by spending your Tera on it), one can’t reliably switch into Pivot Wellspring because of U-Turn and one doesn’t enjoy eating boosted Knock Off. In fact, all 4 are usually very reliant on their items (especially Volcanion for avoiding Stealth Rock damage with Heavy-Duty Boots and Rillaboom with Choice Band on those sets), so Knock Off + Hazards still does them all in fairly badly.
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Volcanion is RUBL and not usable in RU, but you are right that Goodra-Hisui and Volcanion are not splashable for just any team looking to cover its weakness to Ogerpon-Wellspring since they're only usable for very specific structures.

Pecharunt is still great even without its item, and it's still a pretty okay check if you don't misplay with it. Rillaboom can still function as a check after taking a Knock Off 'cause of Grassy Glide even if Glide does become noticeably weaker.

Wellspring having the option to use Knock Off does make her harder to check in the long run, but she cannot be every set at once and has longevity issues herself you can abuse. I believe she's borderline unhealthy anyway, so even if I lean towards her staying for now, that may not always be the case.
 
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Avira said:
I think you mean OHKO.

+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 282-332 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
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Yeah, that was a typo I meant ohko, also it doesn't need to live +2 play rough from adamant since it will outrun it anyway.

So this isn't a one liner: What do people think of Choice Band Tealpon? I've tried building with it a bit but to no avail, what cores do people like running with it?
 
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