maybe it's because of the increased presence of kyurem lately. i've noticed more kyurem than usual in high-level replays and on ladder (as well as using it myself) and it seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of freezes for some reason. anecdotally, i've stolen a lot more games recently based on freezing alone than someone ought to. it almost feels like something has changed mechanically somehow and freeze procs got some sort of stealth-buff, even though i know that's not possible. maybe it's because i'm using a team with both kyurem and atales? well, whatever it is, i do think freeze clause may be something worth looking into in the future. but based on the survey results i think our priority right now, if anything, should be dragonite (i still think it should be waterpon but looks like that's not happening for a while)
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Volcarona mention!
Dragonite, huh? Is it still the E-killer variant with added Tera surprise, or does that show how dated I am?
Mada posting on the OU discussion thread is like seeing bigfoot after 2 years of inactivity.
Anyways, I second this. What separates Wellspring from a breaker like Kyurem is that Wellspring has a better defensive typing. Getting a clean switch off one of the most common mons in the tier (Mr. Tusk) isn’t a small feat. This isn’t without mentioning its ability to pivot into Prima, Wake, and especially Mola. The fact Wellspring has Synthesis means that chipping it down is off the table. It legit only needs two moves to break Ivy and Knock (plus hazards). And sure you can guess the Wellspring set based off trends, but its never obvious like with other offensive threats. I’d like to point out that Wellspring isn’t just broken into Balance, but also Offense with Trailblaze.
I personally don’t find Kyurem broken because its switch-ins are limited to pivots due to a lackluster defensive type and rocks being up severely cuts its bulk + switch-in opportunities. Its incredible at breaking holes, but playing aggro and getting rocks up is your best play against Kyu. If Kyurem still had Roost that would be a different story.
Looking at survey results, i assume the next course of action is going to be a Solgaleo test? There isnt enough support for another suspect and like last year with Palafin we do have a window between SCL and OST/Spl where the ladder could be used for the suspect without impacting Officials.
I think if I did another Likeshop suspect, certain people would put a hit out on my life LMAO
OU tier leader posting a one liner smh smh also what are the councils thoughts on doing likeshop suspect tests but instead of adding a mon to the tier removing a mon from the tier
I mean the whole thing about the Likeshop is it could have been a suspect test on anything within reason*
Sure backing was on Palafin from the beginning but it could have just as easily been a destroy Kingambit brigade or something else. Im also pretty sure the Council can kind of do whatever they want with regards to making a suspect to either kill or let loose something in the tier, and do not need a likeshop to do so. Reads to me like we're just coasting and keeping an eye on things as nothing was even nearing a 4.
Sure backing was on Palafin from the beginning but it could have just as easily been a destroy Kingambit brigade or something else. Im also pretty sure the Council can kind of do whatever they want with regards to making a suspect to either kill or let loose something in the tier, and do not need a likeshop to do so. Reads to me like we're just coasting and keeping an eye on things as nothing was even nearing a 4.
I was bored today and decided to scroll through the recent SCL replays, and to my surprise, there was 4 separate uses of Ogerpon-Teal last week, 2 of which were even against each other. Out of the four Ogerpons, two were Boots sets, one was SD, and one was Choice Band. It was surprisingly effective in its games (besides one getting stalled), so how do you feel about the Pokemon? Worthwhile sidegrade to Ogerpon-Wellspring, or just another passing fad in the tournament?
Teal Ogerpon strikes me as more of a Cleaner than a Wallbreaker due to Mono-STAB (the less neutral of Wellspring's 2 to boot), but being able to hold other items does seem like it would contribute to longevity at the expense of the 20% power boost. It's a little better equipped to make it to mid-late game with enough intact to sweep up a worn down offense or balance team. What item was the SD user holding (assuming it was not one of the two Boots), I'd be curious what it, or all 4, were aiming to do.
I think it (and to a degree Cornerstone) mainly suffer from being mutually exclusive with Wellspring, which is such a powerful piece of OU right now that they need to not simply be good, but better than it for a team's structure. Probably the most significant "casualty" of Species Clause this Gen (and maybe in the game's history amongst forms and Regionals like the Rotoms or Gapdos), I think it's a decent sidegrade that will remain at "fad" or spice usage as long as Wellspring is in the tier.
I originally wrote the "two Boots sets" as Boots Pivot so I forgot to lump in the SD user as well, but yes, the SD user did also run Heavy-Duty Boots. As for their respective use cases, the SD Ogerpon was used as a late game cleaner to finish off the last three weakened Pokemon, while the Choice Band set was actually used as an incredibly aggressive early game breaker, with ABR Tera-ing it T1 to pick up a kill against the opposing Kyurem.
If anyone's intereted, I'll link the 3 replays below:
Boots #1 vs. Stall
SD vs. Offense
Choice Band vs. Boots Mirror
I wouldn't even call it a sidegrade, it honestly feels more like a completely different mon tbh. That being said, it's honestly very good, in part because it is entirely unique in it's ability to both switch into and outrun wellspring (granted you need to tera for it to be guaranteed). I don't really like SD because I think you are better off using wellspring for that, but I think both boots and choice band sets are very good anti offense tools.
Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Spikes
This is probably my favorite set right now, lets you outspeed Kyurem and adamant Wellspring while avoiding a 2hko from +2 play rough thanks to the HP investment.
There's Pecharunt with very heavy Defense investment + Foul Play and Malignant Chain since that can even survive a crit at +2 provided Ogerpon doesn't Tera, but Pecha should be used alongside Zamazenta or Dragonite since Waterpon can't be handled 100% of the time with just one mon.
There's physically defensive Goodra-Hisui, which isn't weak to Grass or Fairy, doesn't hate U-Turn, and can slow down Pokemon making contact with it through Gooey, making it useful for not just Ogerpon-Wellspring, 'cause realistically it doesn't need Sap Sipper since it 4x resists Grass. I guess it is a niche Pokemon, but it's a workable option.
There's Rillaboom with HP investment although you need a secondary check as well. Yeah, taking a U-Turn is rough, but if Wpon is U-Turn, it probably isn't SD, which significantly reduces its threat level.
There's also Volcanion with a Tera Type that resists Grass since it's immune to Wellspring's Ivy Cudgel.
I get that she has few consistent defensive checks outside of Tera Grass on a bulky mon that threatens her, but that's why many tournament players are building balances that for the most part offensively check her and limit checking it defensively since that's less reliable. Maybe you don't appreciate being forced to build this way, but that's how players have adapted to this generation with Tera. Ogerpon-Wellspring can't be U-Turn, Knock, Taunt, and Swords Dance all in one set, so you have to manage your options the best you can with the information available to you. I lean 45/55 myself towards DNB on whether Wellspring should be banned, and maybe I'd also see Waterpon as needing to be banned if Dragonite gets banned first, so it's not like I'm 100% against her being banned.
I think you mean OHKO.
+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 282-332 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
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2 of the Pokemon you mentioned are RU (Like you mentioned in the reply Volcanion’s RUBL but you get the point) Pokemon without reliable recovery and not splashable for just any team looking to cover their weakness to Ogerpon-Wellspring (and Volcanion can only check Wellspring by spending your Tera on it), one can’t reliably switch into Pivot Wellspring because of U-Turn and one doesn’t enjoy eating boosted Knock Off. In fact, all 4 are usually very reliant on their items (especially Volcanion for avoiding Stealth Rock damage with Heavy-Duty Boots and Rillaboom with Choice Band on those sets), so Knock Off + Hazards still does them all in fairly badly.
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I'm going to be honest I think out of everything going on in OU right now Wellspring continues to be the hugest issue to me. Kyu I begrudingly hate to death due to freeze, but I don't think playing against Wellspring is fun whatsoever. The mon feels like a hinderance (how many mons would be better with it gone?) on the builder and it's ability to be utility on top of its usual mash big button sets drives me crazy. At least with Woger gone the tier would feel infinitely more fulfilling to play.
It's all fun and games until one of the least fun pokemon in the tier shows up to give you the heaviest fuck you thats ever been produced.
It's all fun and games until one of the least fun pokemon in the tier shows up to give you the heaviest fuck you thats ever been produced.
Volcanion is RUBL and not usable in RU, but you are right that Goodra-Hisui and Volcanion are not splashable for just any team looking to cover its weakness to Ogerpon-Wellspring since they're only usable for very specific structures.
Pecharunt is still great even without its item, and it's still a pretty okay check if you don't misplay with it. Rillaboom can still function as a check after taking a Knock Off 'cause of Grassy Glide even if Glide does become noticeably weaker.
Wellspring having the option to use Knock Off does make her harder to check in the long run, but she cannot be every set at once and has longevity issues herself you can abuse. I believe she's borderline unhealthy anyway, so even if I lean towards her staying for now, that may not always be the case.
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Yeah, that was a typo I meant ohko, also it doesn't need to live +2 play rough from adamant since it will outrun it anyway.
So this isn't a one liner: What do people think of Choice Band Tealpon? I've tried building with it a bit but to no avail, what cores do people like running with it?
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When I used it in 2024 Wcop (and lost the battle, though it was close), I used it with Terrain Extender Rillaboom and used it Adamant. With Tera, it literally 2HKOs everything except Mons with Sap Sipper and x4 resists. Unfortunately, Grass has 7 types resisting it, so while Sap Sipper Mons are rare in OU (Goodra being the most relevant one), the tier is full of x4 resists: Nite, Iron Moth, Moltres, Corviknight (and its cousin Skarmory, who no one should be using, since its terrible in this Gen), Heatran, Scizor, etc. That being said, Ogerpon has good coverage if you drop U-Turn and Knock. With Superpower you break Hisuian Goodra, Stomping Tantrum OHKOs Moth, Rock Tomb does big damage to Moltres and with Play Rough you have a shot vs Nite.
So, you should focus on the Mons Ogerpon can,t break, Corviknight being the main one. Unless Rillaboom uses Tera Blast, it won,t be breaking Corviknight either, so the rest of the team should focus on it and other x4 resists. Volturn is nice to have and since Ogerpon does not have Boots (overrated item), Hazard removal is a must.
This was the team I used: https://pokepast.es/e4c42f096e0542b9
Its very weak to Iron Moth, which I faced (though it was not the reason of my loss), but overall covered the 2024 meta pretty well.
Other Mons I see paired well with BandPon:
-Rillaboom + Magnezone was a known core in Gen 8 and though Zone is much worse in SV, it still works to trap Corviknight or at least force Tera.
-Heatran benefits from Grassy Terrain inmensely. It also murders all Steels, counters Iron Moth (unless Tera Blast Ground) and might lure Nite to burn it with WoW.
-Tusk removes hazards and has a Ground STAB not weakened by Terrain.
-Moltres is a Flame Body Mon. So, Scizor and Corviknight using U-Turn will be punished.
-Garg likes Terrain, sets Rocks and annoys Steels.
-Slow pivots like Glowking, Scizor, Alomomola and Corviknight also should work.
i believe that while grogerpon is a very good pokemon, the problem is rillaboom is just doing the same things (at a lower speed tier) but setting up priority for itself and if you wanna pair grogerpon with a rilla for the grassy glide i just dont see why you wouldnt just use a wogerpon for the same nieche, if your not gonna go all out offense on a grogerpon i just dont see why you wouldnt opt for wogerpon. it does hit quite hard tho so it does have that use case along with getting speed on terra its just that wogerpon fills similar nieches while having a much better typing and water absorb
The purpose behind pairing base Ogerpon and Rillaboom is not to give Oger glide (though that is what you often do with other Oger formes), but usually rather to run CB Oger and use tera on it. CB tera grass Ivy Cudgel in gterrain hits some absolutely absurd calcs—it’s effectively like giving any old grass type with the same base 120 atk stat a 260 BP grass move (and booster moth speed). That is, mind you, not factoring the basic 1.5x STAB bonus. A 2x resist is still, effectively, eating a neutral 130 BP STAB move, while even quad resists are not exactly shrugging off cudgel:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth in Grassy Terrain: 126-149 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 95-112 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite in Grassy Terrain: 52-61 (16 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO (This looks bad, but that is a quad resist WITH MULTISCALE UP. If it switches into cudgel and you’re at full health, YOU BEAT NON-ROOST NON-TBLAST FLYING DRAGONITE 1v1.)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres in Grassy Terrain: 77-91 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Other than Moth, these aren’t taking a lot, but again, these are the quad resists. 2x resists have a MUCH harder time:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit in Grassy Terrain: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 161-190 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt in Grassy Terrain: 216-255 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
You get the picture. With Rillaboom also being a capable breaker that hits many of the same targets, and with the contact punisher birds only needing one of the two of Rilla and Oger to risk burn/para to knock them off, these two combined with rocks are a viable breaking core that aims to overwhelm would-be checks. Glide Oger just doesn’t fit that goal very well, and I agree, that would be outclassed by other formes, but only one forme can run a choice band.