Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[Eeveeto]

Yeah, that was a typo I meant ohko, also it doesn't need to live +2 play rough from adamant since it will outrun it anyway.

So this isn't a one liner: What do people think of Choice Band Tealpon? I've tried building with it a bit but to no avail, what cores do people like running with it?

When I used it in 2024 Wcop (and lost the battle, though it was close), I used it with Terrain Extender Rillaboom and used it Adamant. With Tera, it literally 2HKOs everything except Mons with Sap Sipper and x4 resists. Unfortunately, Grass has 7 types resisting it, so while Sap Sipper Mons are rare in OU (Goodra being the most relevant one), the tier is full of x4 resists: Nite, Iron Moth, Moltres, Corviknight (and its cousin Skarmory, who no one should be using, since its terrible in this Gen), Heatran, Scizor, etc. That being said, Ogerpon has good coverage if you drop U-Turn and Knock. With Superpower you break Hisuian Goodra, Stomping Tantrum OHKOs Moth, Rock Tomb does big damage to Moltres and with Play Rough you have a shot vs Nite.

So, you should focus on the Mons Ogerpon can,t break, Corviknight being the main one. Unless Rillaboom uses Tera Blast, it won,t be breaking Corviknight either, so the rest of the team should focus on it and other x4 resists. Volturn is nice to have and since Ogerpon does not have Boots (overrated item), Hazard removal is a must.

This was the team I used: https://pokepast.es/e4c42f096e0542b9

Its very weak to Iron Moth, which I faced (though it was not the reason of my loss), but overall covered the 2024 meta pretty well.

Other Mons I see paired well with BandPon:
-Rillaboom + Magnezone was a known core in Gen 8 and though Zone is much worse in SV, it still works to trap Corviknight or at least force Tera.
-Heatran benefits from Grassy Terrain inmensely. It also murders all Steels, counters Iron Moth (unless Tera Blast Ground) and might lure Nite to burn it with WoW.
-Tusk removes hazards and has a Ground STAB not weakened by Terrain.
-Moltres is a Flame Body Mon. So, Scizor and Corviknight using U-Turn will be punished.
-Garg likes Terrain, sets Rocks and annoys Steels.
-Slow pivots like Glowking, Scizor, Alomomola and Corviknight also should work.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

I originally wrote the "two Boots sets" as Boots Pivot so I forgot to lump in the SD user as well, but yes, the SD user did also run Heavy-Duty Boots. As for their respective use cases, the SD Ogerpon was used as a late game cleaner to finish off the last three weakened Pokemon, while the Choice Band set was actually used as an incredibly aggressive early game breaker, with ABR Tera-ing it T1 to pick up a kill against the opposing Kyurem.

If anyone's intereted, I'll link the 3 replays below:
Boots #1 vs. Stall
SD vs. Offense
Choice Band vs. Boots Mirror

i believe that while grogerpon is a very good pokemon, the problem is rillaboom is just doing the same things (at a lower speed tier) but setting up priority for itself and if you wanna pair grogerpon with a rilla for the grassy glide i just dont see why you wouldnt just use a wogerpon for the same nieche, if your not gonna go all out offense on a grogerpon i just dont see why you wouldnt opt for wogerpon. it does hit quite hard tho so it does have that use case along with getting speed on terra its just that wogerpon fills similar nieches while having a much better typing and water absorb

 

[Whaloob]

i believe that while grogerpon is a very good pokemon, the problem is rillaboom is just doing the same things (at a lower speed tier) but setting up priority for itself and if you wanna pair grogerpon with a rilla for the grassy glide i just dont see why you wouldnt just use a wogerpon for the same nieche, if your not gonna go all out offense on a grogerpon i just dont see why you wouldnt opt for wogerpon. it does hit quite hard tho so it does have that use case along with getting speed on terra its just that wogerpon fills similar nieches while having a much better typing and water absorb

The purpose behind pairing base Ogerpon and Rillaboom is not to give Oger glide (though that is what you often do with other Oger formes), but usually rather to run CB Oger and use tera on it. CB tera grass Ivy Cudgel in gterrain hits some absolutely absurd calcs—it’s effectively like giving any old grass type with the same base 120 atk stat a 260 BP grass move (and booster moth speed). That is, mind you, not factoring the basic 1.5x STAB bonus. A 2x resist is still, effectively, eating a neutral 130 BP STAB move, while even quad resists are not exactly shrugging off cudgel:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth in Grassy Terrain: 126-149 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 95-112 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite in Grassy Terrain: 52-61 (16 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO (This looks bad, but that is a quad resist WITH MULTISCALE UP. If it switches into cudgel and you’re at full health, YOU BEAT NON-ROOST NON-TBLAST FLYING DRAGONITE 1v1.)

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres in Grassy Terrain: 77-91 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Other than Moth, these aren’t taking a lot, but again, these are the quad resists. 2x resists have a MUCH harder time:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit in Grassy Terrain: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 161-190 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Ogerpon-Teal-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt in Grassy Terrain: 216-255 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

You get the picture. With Rillaboom also being a capable breaker that hits many of the same targets, and with the contact punisher birds only needing one of the two of Rilla and Oger to risk burn/para to knock them off, these two combined with rocks are a viable breaking core that aims to overwhelm would-be checks. Glide Oger just doesn’t fit that goal very well, and I agree, that would be outclassed by other formes, but only one forme can run a choice band.

 

[Ctann]

Ogerpon - highly predictable and narrow set spread

Kingambit - somewhat predictable and narrow set spread

Dragonite - you win or lose a game depending on its set, wide spread

—

Can’t stand kingambit, but dragonite is probably worse right now. Just lost to a guy who came back from 6v1 to win, because the dragonite was a covert cloak terablast set.. lol. I know surprise sets are nothing new, but the swings are too big. This thing gets 4+ boosts not a simple extra boost when it’s set is optimal.

Ogerpon surprises you: it gets +1 speed and a KO before being revenged

Kingambit surprised you: doubt it, it probably just 50:50d it’s way through you

Dragonite surprised you: here, deal with a +4 Atk dragonite that can roost/encore/etc away your attempt to bring it down

Volcarona got banned for less (a ban I disagree strongly with)

 

[EternalJourneyGaming]

I've been having fun with this Iron Hands set recently and it's been destroying 1700s

Iron Hands @ Salac Berry
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Belly Drum
- Ice Punch
- Substitute

Could replace bdrum for sd

 

[EpicGuy321]

maybe it's because of the increased presence of kyurem lately. i've noticed more kyurem than usual in high-level replays and on ladder (as well as using it myself) and it seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of freezes for some reason. anecdotally, i've stolen a lot more games recently based on freezing alone than someone ought to. it almost feels like something has changed mechanically somehow and freeze procs got some sort of stealth-buff, even though i know that's not possible. maybe it's because i'm using a team with both kyurem and atales? well, whatever it is, i do think freeze clause may be something worth looking into in the future. but based on the survey results i think our priority right now, if anything, should be dragonite (i still think it should be waterpon but looks like that's not happening for a while)

I sincerely think something happened during the last update that made Freezes more likely. I played about 20 games in the past 2 days and faced 5 freezes.

_

Metagross is kind of slightly underrated. Putting him on your team allows you to beat veil and most screens every time because of Heavy Slam OHKOing ATales, Grimmsnarl, and the other guy and Psyfangs deleting screens.

 

[Napoli Burns]

Kyurem seems to land the freezes more often simply because it has two moves with a chance to freeze instead of one, one for damage and one for bulky Waters. There aren't many Pokémon with 10% secondary effect moves that can freely click their STAB, and even resisted hits still allow for progress in the match, unless you're playing against Heatran

When I came back after a hiatus, I honestly expected to see it at least resuspected

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Kyurem seems to land the freezes more often simply because it has two moves with a chance to freeze instead of one, one for damage and one for bulky Waters. There aren't many Pokémon with 10% secondary effect moves that can freely click their STAB, and even resisted hits still allow for progress in the match, unless you're playing against Heatran

When I came back after a hiatus, I honestly expected to see it at least resuspected

Kyurem has had two suspect tests. You need way better reasons to suspect it a third time, in my opinion being banned now without a very strong reason compromises the integrity of the metagame. And Kyurem is the kind of mon that thrives against balance either way. I'm pretty confident there exists a significant delta between a mon "strong enough against balance" and a mon "strong enough against stall" across many aspects of smogon culture.

 

[sg pokemon]

Kyurem seems to land the freezes more often simply because it has two moves with a chance to freeze instead of one, one for damage and one for bulky Waters. There aren't many Pokémon with 10% secondary effect moves that can freely click their STAB, and even resisted hits still allow for progress in the match, unless you're playing against Heatran

When I came back after a hiatus, I honestly expected to see it at least resuspected

More than this, it gets such amounts of chances simply because of how absurdly bulky it is, courtesy of its boxart legendary BST. this amount of bulk, in tandem with a solid-enough speed tier and high offensive power (despite the lack of an offensive ability) is that often places the opponent in the back foot and forces them to risk freeze as many times as needed to force out/kill the mon. But yeah its level of bulk is so insane in tandem with its other aforementioned traits, that it often gets away with various exchanges/trades in spite of its infamously bad ice typing (even fully invested 90-100 bp stab moves off of 120+ attacking stats often don't ohko from full, for instance), hazards weakness notwithstanding. It's further exacerbated by its sub/protect set which is rather hard for weaker attacks to break the sub, letting it actually make use of the otherwise-unnnotable pressure ability to really drain moves like cc/stone edge out of pp super fast, especially if it gets the sub/protect turns right. This isn't even mentioning its ability to tera and make said "bad" typing irrelevant in the first place.

Now, is the mon without flaws? Not really, it can often feel like a tera hog especially depending on the set, and said hazard weakness can sting without proper management, yet in spite of these flaws, potential 4mms for both moves and evs/choice of tera, and a lack of a real ability for the most part, its high and well rounded stats often let it get by anyway, especially as it wields one of the already-best stab options in the game anyway...which also has a chance to add further rng into the game (its moves could freeze at any moment, and from there a frozen victim could either thaw out instantly and pretend nothing happened, or remain frozen forever and become the biggest setup fodder ever).

It's for these reasons that I was -and still am- upset at the vote result being so close to us being freed from this fat demon. Especially since the support for kicking it out at long last from here seems so mid by this point. I do still consider it highly problematic, for all the aforementioned reasons and more.

Disclaimer

Before I'm hit with the "Hoopa U/Zamazenta have similarly high bst yet they're fine!!" statement: Hoopa's typing is obviously much worse than Kyurem's, and its stats are distributed in such a way that it's not really overbearing; the combination of middling hp/def/speed really holds it back from brokenness (not to mention it's hindered by a psychic typing and essentially no ability, which have managed to even knock down Deo S in here), and idt anyone here would dispute that. As for Zamazenta....I'm gonna be honest, most of what I stated about Kyurem do apply to Zama as well to a T; the main difference is that Zama has fewer weaknesses but can only attack from 1 side of the spectrum and suffers from anti-contact measures. Most of its sets are -fine- but its iron defense body press set (ESPECIALLY when backed up by sub+the right tera type) is a disgusting fish that can just autowin with minimal conditions met, and the meta would indeed be better off without it imo. Particularly since said set, with the right filler move, absurd bulk (especially backed up by the right tera type) and even crunch defense drops (even vs tera ghost stuff) can BS its way past most of its checks except for stuff like, haze toxapex or unaware mons.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Before I'm hit with the "Hoopa U/Zamazenta have similarly high bst yet they're fine!!" statement: Hoopa's typing is obviously much worse than Kyurem's, and its stats are distributed in such a way that it's not really overbearing; the combination of middling hp/def/speed really holds it back from brokenness (not to mention it's hindered by a psychic typing and essentially no ability, which have managed to even knock down Deo S in here), and idt anyone here would dispute that. As for Zamazenta....I'm gonna be honest, most of what I stated about Kyurem do apply to Zama as well to a T; the main difference is that Zama has fewer weaknesses but can only attack from 1 side of the spectrum and suffers from anti-contact measures. Most of its sets are -fine- but its iron defense body press set (ESPECIALLY when backed up by sub+the right tera type) is a disgusting fish that can just autowin with minimal conditions met, and the meta would indeed be better off without it imo. Particularly since said set, with the right filler move, absurd bulk (especially backed up by the right tera type) and even crunch defense drops (even vs tera ghost stuff) can BS its way past most of its checks except for stuff like, haze toxapex or unaware mons.

we should also note that hoopa-u, although bad by the traditional definition, is still capable of being absurdly dangerous despite its weak points and would probably be ubers if it had any amount of splashability. a consistent hoopa-u presence in the tier would likely invalidate most of the meta's bulky teams and make the entire playstyle of stall outright unviable, kind of like annihilape did in early svou. the stall matchup against this mon is nearly unwinnable and that's not an exaggeration

about zama, i honestly still kind of disagree with the decision to drop it. even though it's turned out to be a strong balancing force and a pillar of a healthy meta (at least to the extent that the current form of svou can be "healthy"), and i'm against a ban of it (at least without several other bans preceding that) because it would destabilize the tier beyond current policy's ability to fix, i think my ideal form of svou would not contain it

so yeah, i agree, even the so-called exceptions to the box-legendary bst rule are not really exceptions

 

[UltraSword]

about zama, i honestly still kind of disagree with the decision to drop it. even though it's turned out to be a strong balancing force and a pillar of a healthy meta (at least to the extent that the current form of svou can be "healthy"), and i'm against a ban of it (at least without several other bans preceding that) because it would destabilize the tier beyond current policy's ability to fix, i think my ideal form of svou would not contain it

Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.

 

[KamenOH]

Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.

My ideal form of SV OU is one where offensive Pokémon within reason, like Volc and Dragonite and Baxcalibur and Kingambit and such, are free to be in OU without fear of reprisal. I do agree that Legendaries that would truly make the meta about them, like Groudon and Zygarde-Complete and Mewtwo, are no good for such a meta, and as such there should be some limit to the power of a Pokémon. I just think its too low for SV OU currently, that's all.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I would rather have more pokemon than game mechanics personally. It does feel like every match has some bullshit you can't counterplay in the moment.. you can retrospectively go over a vod but its just not enjoyable when scouting feels the same as throwing some games. Its why i didnt bother to vote anything bannable cause at this point the pokemon themselves are just a cosmetic to the mechanic that makes them feel very cheap. Early SV I think most of the obvious numbers-based problems like chi-yu being a special fire dracovish were weeded out but then it was pokemon that were symptoms not solutions by removing.

It really does feel like as more pokemon came out, it became more important for dragonite/volcarona/roaring moon/kingambit etc to add another tera type to their 'tera pool' which just made them more unpredictable and bullshit to play against. Tera blast would nerf what they swing back with but even defensively used it feels like gambling whether or not you want to stay in and try to take it out with a neutral/SE hit or leave to avoid a setup/sac.

I also want to bring up sleep cause frankly it does feel lame looking at pokemon that I used to run sleep powder on or spore on... and then realize they're completely hot garbage without it, yes I was that psycho running venomoth or vivillon in ou on occasion. I fully understand why we shifted on sleep policies but there had to have been a better way than banning sleep as a whole... you could've easily implemented a check where pressing the sleep move button when the opponent already has a sleeping pokemon inflicted by you was the equivalent of pressing the forfeit button (perfectly replicatable on card where the opponent can just quit and say "nah i won that game") , or even ask the opponent if they would like to close the match and take the W rather than play it out since the rule was broken. Looking to the future isn't allowed but it does make me think about champions with mega venasaur, victreebel, possibly malamar, etc and feel concerned just how much worse these are for the same of the sleep clause policy shift that was running over 10+ years.

 

[cat111ca]

I want to discuss Terapagos. I've read the rules and know I'm probably crossing most of them but it's stupid that because 's crimes a Pokemon that has proven to be healthy in natdex where it's the same is banned. If mega Rayquaza was both the first Pokemon banned from ubers and allowed regular Rayquaza to not be banned than genuinely why was banned?

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

Terapagos Tera ban may avoid the downside of a usual complex ban. This is because we can argue that Terapagos is special as it is Tera-locked and has a broken form-change gimmick tied to it, meaning it’s different from say banning Tera normal on Dragonite, some random gen 1 mon.

However, Ogerpon also exists and no one will call Teal or Cornerstone broken so idk.

 

[cat111ca]

Terapagos Tera ban may avoid the downside of a usual complex ban. This is because we can argue that Terapagos is special as it is Tera-locked and has a broken form-change gimmick tied to it, meaning it’s different from say banning Tera normal on Dragonite, some random gen 1 mon.

However, Ogerpon also exists and no one will call Teal or Cornerstone broken so idk.

Well. Firstly, the Ogerpon tera forms are more like modifiers and are part of the reason hearthflame is banned and people (including me) want to ban wellspring.
Secondly, ogerpon's tera form make it better at what it already does. Terapagos uses tera to become a completely different beast. From a bulky normal spinner with coverage to a insanely bulky unstoppable sweeper that can't be stop with type metchups, so they do completely different things with their tera forms.
And finally, for why I do think that doesn't count as a complex ban. It's a different form. Technically banning mega salamence was a complex ban because it's a ban of an item only on a specific Pokemon. Of course that is a stupid argument because salamence actually uses Salamencite, but technically you could say that is the same to banning tera stellar and as such terapagos-Stellar only on terapagos. And I feel that while obviously not as stupid as the idea of banning regular salamence because it's mega was broken, it does feel kinda similar.
And that's why it's stupid terapagos got dragged to ubers for 's crimes

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.

my ideal form of svou would have kingambit, waterpon, gholdengo, kyurem, dragonite, and zamazenta gone, and terapagos unbanned and claused to be unable to tera. these are just the initial steps i'd take, then we'd have to take a long while for the meta to settle and see if anything else ends up problematic. though honestly i doubt anything will

i could go either way on tera blast, but if it were banned my ideal form of svou would only include dropping regieleki and not banning dragonite; nothing else would change. i really don't think this would be impossible to achieve if the community didn't have such a massive case of stockholm syndrome about the ghold/zama/gambit trio

 

[UltraSword]

my ideal form of svou would have kingambit, waterpon, gholdengo, kyurem, dragonite, and zamazenta gone, and terapagos unbanned and claused to be unable to tera. i could go either way on tera blast, but if it were banned my ideal form of svou would only include dropping regieleki and not banning dragonite; nothing else would change. i really don't think this would be impossible to achieve if the community didn't have such a massive case of stockholm syndrome about the ghold/zama/gambit trio

Interesting answer. Personally my ideal form of SV OU would probably have Terapagos (Stellar) unbanned, maybe sleep back with a Darkrai ban, and in the event of a tera blast ban (which I can also go either way on) a Regieleki and Volcarona unban.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I fully understand why we shifted on sleep policies but there had to have been a better way than banning sleep as a whole... you could've easily implemented a check where pressing the sleep move button when the opponent already has a sleeping pokemon inflicted by you was the equivalent of pressing the forfeit button (perfectly replicatable on card where the opponent can just quit and say "nah i won that game") , or even ask the opponent if they would like to close the match and take the W rather than play it out since the rule was broken.

that was the original sleep clause. back in the ancient days before the mod was implemented, putting an opponent to sleep when there was already a sleeping (non-resting) mon on the other side of the field would result in an automatic loss. this was the standard because cartridge play was fairly common at the time as well. people hated it so much that they ultimately decided the mod would be better

 

[Hon07rial]

Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.

Banned: Kyurem, Gambit, Ghold, Woger, hypnosis.
Unbanned: Regieleki, Terapagos medium sized, Sleep Clause reimplemented, Spore, Yawn.
About Tera Blast: I hate what everyone hates but I really enjoy the presence of mons such as tblast ghost pult and tblast flying dragonite. And so I'd test out making pokemon only able to use tblast from a type they already had to preserve such sets.

 

[cat111ca]

Terapagos Tera ban may avoid the downside of a usual complex ban. This is because we can argue that Terapagos is special as it is Tera-locked and has a broken form-change gimmick tied to it, meaning it’s different from say banning Tera normal on Dragonite, some random gen 1 mon.

However, Ogerpon also exists and no one will call Teal or Cornerstone broken so idk.

Well. Firstly, the Ogerpon tera forms are more like modifiers and are part of the reason hearthflame is banned and people (including me) want to ban wellspring.

Secondly, ogerpon's tera form make it better at what it already does. Terapagos uses tera to become a completely different beast. From a bulky normal spinner with coverage to a insanely bulky unstoppable sweeper that can't be stop with type metchups, so they do completely different things with their tera forms.

And finally, for why I do think that doesn't count as a complex ban. It's a different form. Technically banning mega salamence was a complex ban because it's a ban of an item only on a specific Pokemon. Of course that is a stupid argument because salamence actually uses Salamencite, but technically you could say that is the same to banning tera stellar and as such terapagos-Stellar only on terapagos. And I feel that while obviously not as stupid as the idea of banning regular salamence because it's mega was broken, it does feel kinda similar.

And that's why it's stupid terapagos got dragged to ubers for 's crimes.

Ive reupload this because I've spent alot of energy on this and no one is responding. And there isn't any rule anout reuploading

 

[ILoveGarchom]

Interesting answer. Personally my ideal form of SV OU would probably have Terapagos (Stellar) unbanned, maybe sleep back with a Darkrai ban, and in the event of a tera blast ban (which I can also go either way on) a Regieleki and Volcarona unban.

I don't get why we want sleep in any form, what positives does it bring to the game. And banning rai is like why, it feels like a good addition to the tier from what I've seen.

 

[FayaWizard]

Well. Firstly, the Ogerpon tera forms are more like modifiers and are part of the reason hearthflame is banned and people (including me) want to ban wellspring.

Secondly, ogerpon's tera form make it better at what it already does. Terapagos uses tera to become a completely different beast. From a bulky normal spinner with coverage to a insanely bulky unstoppable sweeper that can't be stop with type metchups, so they do completely different things with their tera forms.

And finally, for why I do think that doesn't count as a complex ban. It's a different form. Technically banning mega salamence was a complex ban because it's a ban of an item only on a specific Pokemon. Of course that is a stupid argument because salamence actually uses Salamencite, but technically you could say that is the same to banning tera stellar and as such terapagos-Stellar only on terapagos. And I feel that while obviously not as stupid as the idea of banning regular salamence because it's mega was broken, it does feel kinda similar.

And that's why it's stupid terapagos got dragged to ubers for 's crimes.

Ive reupload this because I've spent alot of energy on this and no one is responding. And there isn't any rule anout reuploading

This is a policy discussion, not relevant to the current metagame. As for why, there’s a whole Policy Review thread a year ago that’s you can find here. Drop the Terapagos and Sleep Clause convo, nether have substantial support nor are allowed in this thread.

 

[Eeveeto]

My ideal Metagame (Unrealistic version).​

Pokemon Bans: Gholdengo, Blaziken (reason for this one will be provided later), Cyclizar (same).

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger, Booster Energy.

Conditional Bans (if one happens, the other doesn,t have to):
A) Complex Ban of Stealth Rock + Spikes (Ceaseless Edge not included).
B) Knock Off Ban (Trick, Switcheroo, Thief and Covet still allowed).

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo, Giratina-A, Lugia, Zamazenta Crowned, Sneasler, Roaring Moon.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Moody, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, King's Rock/Razor Fang, Baton Pass (fully unrestricted), Last Respects, Shed Tail, Accupressure, OHKO moves.

Clause Change: Species Clause becomes Forme Clause, meaning that you can use for example Kanto Zapdos and Galar Zapdos on the same team.

My ideal Metagame (Realistic version).​

Pokemon Bans: Waterpon and Gliscor.

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger.

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Baton Pass with Stats passing being banned.

 

[TheCringeFrany]

My ideal Metagame (Unrealistic version).​

Pokemon Bans: Gholdengo, Blaziken (reason for this one will be provided later), Cyclizar (same).

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger, Booster Energy.

Conditional Bans (if one happens, the other doesn,t have to):
A) Complex Ban of Stealth Rock + Spikes (Ceaseless Edge not included).
B) Knock Off Ban (Trick, Switcheroo, Thief and Covet still allowed).

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo, Giratina-A, Lugia, Zamazenta Crowned, Sneasler, Roaring Moon.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Moody, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, King's Rock/Razor Fang, Baton Pass (fully unrestricted), Last Respects, Shed Tail, Accupressure, OHKO moves.

Clause Change: Species Clause becomes Forme Clause, meaning that you can use for example Kanto Zapdos and Galar Zapdos on the same team.

My ideal Metagame (Realistic version).​

Pokemon Bans: Waterpon and Gliscor.

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger.

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Baton Pass with Stats passing being banned.

....
the fact that i cannot tell if this is bait or not shows how absolute batshit insane the discussion around tiering changes for SV ou have become.


anyways MOVING ON to a more intresting discussion, how do we feel about Tyranitar, it feels like its been accumulating usage under the radar and now has a reasonable chance at returning to OU, i know this is most likely due to a team featuring Ttar becoming popular but is there any ohter intresting sets, sand also feels very strong in this meta, even whithout Exca.