Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

:sv/ceruledge:
As much as Ceruledge is the goat. The hype is getting overblown. I’m already hearing players calling for a suspect test which is an absurd proposition to consider, especially with Drakingvonite running the streets.

Ceruledge is indeed a fantastic wallbreaker/sweeper but it has clear limitations holding it back.

Ceruledge needs specific conditions in order to sweep. Rocks need to be off the field, it desires support from screens/terrain/webs, LO/Sash should be intact, and more importantly, it needs to be hit with a physical move. This is all doable on paper and practice, but it limits the builds Ceruledge fits on, and means Ceruledge counterplay is simple.

To achieve most of those insane calcs, Ceruledge has to burn Tera, otherwise Pokemon like Lando, Tusk, and Dnite will survive and OHKO Ceruledge. As stated earlier it also needs LO, which can be difficult to preserve vs Balance/BO with many staples carrying Knock Off.

Ceruledge is hella slow without a boost and prefers to invest in bulk or speed to offset that. Even so, there are several mons who can outspeed, live a +2 Sneak and kill it. Glimmora (Red Card variants 1v1 Ceru after the item is used), Wake, Tusk, Scarf Ghold post-Tera, Darkrai, Treads, Lando, Tusk, Samu, Scale Shot DD Kyu, Sucker Cinderace, Wellspring, Weavile etc. Encore also stops Ceruledge sweeps before they start.

Ceruledge is also not difficult to deal with post-Weak Armor boost. Balance teams have stuff like Payback Ting-Lu, Tera Dark Pecha, Tera Normal Dtail Dnite, Sucker Samu, ID/Curse Garg (underrated set), and Gambit. More offensive teams have priority to rkill it post-Tera or Booster Raging Bolt.

Players do not prep for Ceruledge as they do for the other offensive threats, but that is likely to change very soon. H-Samu has been overlooked, but it appreciates several meta trends such as higher Hatt and Tran usage, but more importantly it punishes Ceruledge well with priority or Encore. Galarian-Weezing usage has also lowered in recent memory, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Samu gets more attention as we move forward to December. It will incentivize Ceruledge to run CC more frequently which means less Poltergeist nuking every physical wall in the meta.

Also, if you look at the current usage stats for SCL, not only is Ceruledge rarely popping up, it’s underperforming with a 16.67% winrate. Normally winrate isn’t something to seriously consider, but wanting to ban a mon with an abysmal winrate is wild. Looking through OUPL replays, most of the games that featured Ceruledge resulted in losses where Ceruledge didn’t get to contribute much, or wins which were the doings of other mons on the team. Even during the last few weeks of OLT, Ceruledge didn’t do much. In Vert’s semifinals game, Ceruledge does put in work forcing Ting-Lu down to low HP and forces Tera, but nothing outright broken. In Separation’s Finals match, Ceruledge didn’t even come out lol

Ceruledge is a positive presence in the tier. It punishes brainless pivot spam (the most uninteractive playstyle only behind Stall) and promotes proactive gameplay. Having a burn immunity is important for Offense and Ceruledge fulfills that role and more. Compared to other sweepers we’ve banned and Dnite, Ceruledge demands a ton of support. Beating it is about playing smart; situational awareness and not staying in to give it a free boost.
 
To me one bad matchup in the top 10 and 2 great matchups is good enough. Also, because cobalion is a steel type and never used you can use a steel move and until it uses it the opponent thinks it doesn't.
Great Tusk --> Okay at best, you don't do anything in front of it except of slightly chip it and probably get yourself worn out if it has helmet. Can set up rocks, bulk up, do heavy damage with headlong, clean away hazards...
Kingambit --> Good matchup for Cobalion
Gholdengo --> A lvl 1 sandshrew does more than cobalion here
Ogerpon Wellspring --> Okay-ish at best and i'm being really grateful. You can't switch in, it chips you easily with stab, can just pivot with u-turn...You deal with it 1v1 if you have good para luck and she doesn't have tera
Zamazenta --> Good aganist any non Sub non Roar non Rest variants if IDef, you can't switch in, last mon 1v1 situation it wins you easily, it's faster so it roars you before... If it's boots you cant sponge a hit a Twave it so let's say it's ok.
Dragonite --> A good matchup, solidly
Dragapult --> Can't deal direct damage to it, it just pivots. You can't switch in.
Slowking-G --> If it packs flamethrower or TWave you're cooked, you can't stay on future sight, and it pivots in your face without any issues
Landorus - Therian --> Extremely bad, even worse if it's EP Lando
Hatterene --> I already explained it.

So, 2 ok matchups (being generous), 1 good matchup, 7 horrible matchups.
 
3 also can pivot,
Now in Cobalion's defense it does also learn volt switch...for some reason. I don't really see why you would use it over any of the other move set options Achohermano said above but it is there.
Gholdengo --> A lvl 1 sandshrew does more than cobalion here
And on that note Cobalion can at least pop the air balloon on Gholdengo with volt switch to force some progress so it can do something at least.

As for my thoughts on Cobalion in general it probably can do something, but it is outclassed by Iron Treads and probably doesn't do that well against ground types in general. It is probably usable, but I struggle to see many instances where I am using it over Iron Treads. Before I stop though, one more thing.

However, this Pokémon does NOTHING in front of Hatterene, which a top 10 Pokémon both in viability and usage right now.
0- Atk 0 IVs Cobalion Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hatterene: 134-162 (42.1 - 50.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO
1763693090073.png

Now this does compete for a spot on Cobalion's moveset but you can't call this nothing my dude.
 
:sv/ceruledge:
As much as Ceruledge is the goat. The hype is getting overblown. I’m already hearing players calling for a suspect test which is an absurd proposition to consider, especially with Drakingvonite running the streets.
yeah i figured this would happen
IMG_2076.jpeg

Compared to other sweepers we’ve banned and Dnite, Ceruledge demands a ton of support.
why limit it to the banned mons and dnite? compared to a large portion of good sweepers in general ceruledge demands a ton of support. gambit, waterpon, etc don't need screens or webs or terrain or fancy footwork to bait a physical attack that they can live specifically or any nonsense like that, all they need is an opening and then boom, down you go. not that those are particularly balanced either, but i could also cite things like bu tusk that don't really need any special help or preparation to start a sweep. frankly ceruledge is one of the most honest setup sweepers i've actually seen in ou this gen by merit of how much work you have to do to properly pull off the sweep
 
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why limit it to the banned mons and dnite? compared to a large portion of good sweepers in general ceruledge demands a ton of support. ironpress zama, gambit, waterpon, etc don't need screens or webs or terrain or fancy footwork to bait a physical attack that they can live specifically or any nonsense like that, all they need is an opening and then boom, down you go. not that those are particularly balanced either, but i could also cite things like bu tusk or cm iron crown that don't really need any special help or preparation to start a sweep. frankly ceruledge is one of the most honest setup sweepers i've actually seen in ou this gen by merit of how much work you have to do to properly pull off the sweep

You overrate Zama as it needs significant support to clean/sweep teams. There's a reason why Zama is no longer on OU Tiering Surveys, and it's because nobody on the OU Council deems it to be a problem with the minimum criteria for being on such a survey is that one person on the OU Council wants it on the survey. There is plenty of defensive counterplay to Zama, and offensive counterplay exists too, to the point that it is a balanced mon in OU albeit very effective at what it does, and I don't mean quote unquote "balanced" but actually balanced as it's a perfectly fine mon in the tier that is very healthy for the meta.

Ceruledge may need more support than actual top-tier mons, but when it gets a good matchup, it really feasts due to its unique strengths. Ceruledge doesn't need more support than CM Iron Crown from what I've seen, and if you're trying to give examples of lower-than-top-tier-boosting threats that require less support than Ceruledge, you absolutely shouldn't have used Iron Crown as an example as it does need quite a significant amount of support itself to get going. And before you jump at me, no, I do not believe Ceruledge needs a suspect test now or ever.
 
You overrate Zama as it needs significant support to clean/sweep teams. There's a reason why Zama is no longer on OU Tiering Surveys, and it's because nobody on the OU Council deems it to be a problem with the minimum criteria for being on such a survey is that one person on the OU Council wants it on the survey. There is plenty of defensive counterplay to Zama, and offensive counterplay exists too, to the point that it is a balanced mon in OU albeit very effective at what it does, and I don't mean quote unquote "balanced" but actually balanced as it's a perfectly fine mon in the tier that is very healthy for the meta.
i do agree that in the current environment zama is absolutely a balanced and healthy mon, but i also think that most of the things holding it back from being broken (and several of the things that it holds back that make it a healthy presence) are bullshit and should be taken behind the woodshed and put down like old yeller. i've said this before: in the progression this meta is going to take in the future, i would never support a zamazenta ban, but in my ideal form of svou it would not be here. that said, you're right, i was probably wrong to include it alongside gambit and waterpon
Ceruledge may need more support than actual top-tier mons, but when it gets a good matchup, it really feasts due to its unique strengths. Ceruledge doesn't need more support than CM Iron Crown from what I've seen, and if you're trying to give examples of lower-than-top-tier-boosting threats that require less support than Ceruledge, you absolutely shouldn't have used Iron Crown as an example as it does need quite a significant amount of support itself to get going. And before you jump at me, no, I do not believe Ceruledge needs a suspect test now or ever.
honestly i haven't seen setup crown in so long that i lowkey forgot what the support structure for it is like, i just kinda randomly chose a mon that i was like "yeah this is a healthier setup mon than gambit or waterpon". apologies for the bad example, but hopefully the point still comes across
 
What are some of your favorite Hydrapple spreads or sets? I've been enjoying sticky hold rocky helmet physdef set but I'm curious if any of y'all have workshopped any spreads for more offensive specific comp ones. This is the one I've been enjoying a lot:
i've considered using Hydrapple AV, but I've never been able to fit it into any team, I think it could be useful
 
What are some of your favorite Hydrapple spreads or sets? I've been enjoying sticky hold rocky helmet physdef set but I'm curious if any of y'all have workshopped any spreads for more offensive specific comp ones. This is the one I've been enjoying a lot:

Hydrapple @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Body Press

Body Press for steel types (team has ghold answers so its less stressful on Hydrapple) or Blissey, Giga Drain for some modest recovery in physhit exchanges (Largely Samu and Tusky tho), with enough HP to live a 2X ice hit from Tusk that isn't booster attack. I prefer Fickle beam because I like to leave it in to take a hit or two and the SPA loss from Draco hurts a bit.
usually i just do standard phys def np apple with helmet. Really pushes its defensive capabilities and lets it chip tusk and wellspring into ko ranges. Tera steel is a favorite of mine to punish weavile and such.
 
Now this does compete for a spot on Cobalion's moveset but you can't call this nothing my dude.
You made some solid arguments for everything but if you don't mind for making this post easier to read I'll just quote the last line. But I read everything and you made some solid points.

The thing is (I knew it could Volt Switch...As you said, for some reason neither of us know) but at that point you're just running an Spinless Iron Treads that can't booster and without potential Ice Coverage. I don't think that Cobalion is completely useless, like dead weight in every game (as I said, I do think it wins teraless Gambit and it can check and cripple Dragonite) but the "role compression" it brings it's not worth and it has really bad matchups aganist a lot of top tiers.

You can, as you correctly stated, slot Heavy Slam, and Volt Switch, but at that point you're using Iron Treads 0.5
 
Soo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about :ogerpon-wellspring:. So what's and when's the next tiering action going to happen?
Wow some of you guys are so traumatized by this thing and then proceed to accuse me of fearmongering when I talk about unbans and ZapKingLu

Unless new tech gets discovered, I believe Ogerpon-W will remain OU for the remainder of the generation. From my point of view it does not have what it takes to break the tier.
 
Ogerpon Wellspring is just this gen's "kinda bullshit but it has counterplay and isn't entirely braindead so we'll let it slide" mon, like Melmetal in gen 8 and Kartana in gen 7. yes most of what Ogerpon does is click Ivy Cudgel but it has real limitations and isn't without any counterplay. unless you play terribly, it will always get something done but similarly from the opponent's POV, there's always good plays that limit it from mindlessly attacking. it's telling that qualified players tend to rate it lower than the general playerbase . in SCL, it's number 10 in usage with a 61% winrate, which is great but hardly overbearing. (yes I know usage and winrate aren't everything but that doesn't mean they're not worth considering) Ogerpon Wellspring is a metagame defining presence for sure but SV OU is such an offense heavy metagame that there's lots of ways to outplay it.
 
Ogerpon Wellspring is just this gen's "kinda bullshit but it has counterplay and isn't entirely braindead so we'll let it slide" mon, like Melmetal in gen 8 and Kartana in gen 7. yes most of what Ogerpon does is click Ivy Cudgel but it has real limitations and isn't without any counterplay. unless you play terribly, it will always get something done but similarly from the opponent's POV, there's always good plays that limit it from mindlessly attacking. it's telling that qualified players tend to rate it lower than the general playerbase . in SCL, it's number 10 in usage with a 61% winrate, which is great but hardly overbearing. (yes I know usage and winrate aren't everything but that doesn't mean they're not worth considering) Ogerpon Wellspring is a metagame defining presence for sure but SV OU is such an offense heavy metagame that there's lots of ways to outplay it.
Well. This gen already has alot of offensive bullshit (yes :Dragonite::zamazenta::kingambit: i am looking at y'all)
And unlike :Melmetal: and :kartana: it has way too much utility for such an overbearing offensive force. Between spikes, encore, taunt, synthesis, spiky shield, u-turn, knock off and trailblaze. (All somewhat viable other than maybe spiky shield) And with the overbearing force of just ivy cudgel it can use a slot or two for utility.
And again, you compared it to two of the most controversial Pokemon in previous generation
 
Soo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about :ogerpon-wellspring:. So what's and when's the next tiering action going to happen?
with rocky helmet hydraple its honestly not that bad anymore i still think a suspect test is warranted just dont know if it is ban worthy rn need to wait some time to see if playrough is good or if there will be tech, frankly i just think dnite warents a suspect much more that wogerpon both though i believe are a overall unhealthy presence of the metagame
 
with rocky helmet hydraple its honestly not that bad anymore i still think a suspect test is warranted just dont know if it is ban worthy rn need to wait some time to see if playrough is good or if there will be tech, frankly i just think dnite warents a suspect much more that wogerpon both though i believe are a overall unhealthy presence of the metagame
I see what you're getting at. But her main move isn't contact so she isn't punished as much as it's just a waste. And that's a uu mon using a specific item giving up on the great regenerator boots combo. It is a worth while counter but encore and play rough sets can beat it
 
I see what you're getting at. But her main move isn't contact so she isn't punished as much as it's just a waste. And that's a uu mon using a specific item giving up on the great regenerator boots combo. It is a worth while counter but encore and play rough sets can beat it
you have a 4x resist to signature, its more abt playrough and uturn along with being able to punish tusk headlong rush's so u dont get overwhelmed by the combination of wogerpon and tusk
 
You made some solid arguments for everything but if you don't mind for making this post easier to read I'll just quote the last line. But I read everything and you made some solid points.

The thing is (I knew it could Volt Switch...As you said, for some reason neither of us know) but at that point you're just running an Spinless Iron Treads that can't booster and without potential Ice Coverage. I don't think that Cobalion is completely useless, like dead weight in every game (as I said, I do think it wins teraless Gambit and it can check and cripple Dragonite) but the "role compression" it brings it's not worth and it has really bad matchups aganist a lot of top tiers.

You can, as you correctly stated, slot Heavy Slam, and Volt Switch, but at that point you're using Iron Treads 0.5
I am not really sure what you mean by making the post easier to read lol. Anyway though, I don't disagree with you at all. Cobalion is kind of just outclassed by Iron Treads and there are few times you would use Cobalion over it. If only it had something that could actually justify it being used in OU.

Soo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about :ogerpon-wellspring:. So what's and when's the next tiering action going to happen?
I don't know if this is intended to be a joke and if it is then power to you I guess. If it isn't though, I don't understand why you think just because you and some other people have posted on here saying it is broken that suddenly the council is going to suspect test Wogerpon. In a survey that just happened barely a month ago, the qualified player base did not give it nearly the amount of support needed for a suspect test. I can't say the same thing about the general support, but the council usually seems to consider the qualified result before the general one. If you really want Wogerpon suspect tested, then go ahead and keep campaigning for it but don't assume that just because you believe you made a good argument that everyone is going to suddenly accept it as truth.
 
I don't know if this is intended to be a joke and if it is then power to you I guess. If it isn't though, I don't understand why you think just because you and some other people have posted on here saying it is broken that suddenly the council is going to suspect test Wogerpon. In a survey that just happened barely a month ago, the qualified player base did not give it nearly the amount of support needed for a suspect test. I can't say the same thing about the general support, but the council usually seems to consider the qualified result before the general one. If you really want Wogerpon suspect tested, then go ahead and keep campaigning for it but don't assume that just because you believe you made a good argument that everyone is going to suddenly accept it as truth.
I personally am more in favor of having a suspect test of wogerpon simply to get ppl to stop yapping abt it and fuel discussion around it but anyway it is nowhere near the priority of something like dnite for a suspect test. i just dont see wogerpon getting banned unless new tech is found and we should be focusing on dnite anyway rn
 
Wow some of you guys are so traumatized by this thing and then proceed to accuse me of fearmongering when I talk about unbans and ZapKingLu

Unless new tech gets discovered, I believe Ogerpon-W will remain OU for the remainder of the generation. From my point of view it does not have what it takes to break the tier.
Being correct about Ogerpon-W remaining OU doesn't suddenly make the unban campaigns or desire to suspect Alomomola and Ting-Lu any less absurd. One relatively-green player making a fearful proposal doesn't have any effect on how agreeable your own controversial ones are.

More than just straight absurd power, I think the thing that needs to be discussed if anyone wants to push for a Suspect test is greater Metagame effect since we've long since Tested the mons that would just be "big number" problems like DLC1 Gliscor (DLC2 it's seemed pretty honest) on defensive play or Baxcalibur on offensive. Like does Ting-Lu actually force anything to play differently, or is it just an extremely strong blanket check to a lot of the tier's attackers? Does Wellspring force defensive teams to build outright suboptimal structures, or is it just one breaker they have to weigh the heavy risk of compared to being weak to, say, Gholdengo or NP Darkrai? We've been in SV OU long enough that I think wider meta effects are visible without being trends that will easily shift around, so discussing that wider context is more important to pin down things to add, remove, or experiment with.
 
If it isn't though, I don't understand why you think just because you and some other people have posted on here saying it is broken that suddenly the council is going to suspect test Wogerpon.
"Why would the council suspect something just because a portion of players want it suspected" than how DO they choose what suspect test to do? Personal opinion only?
What i hear is that you think I'm stupid for thinking the council should listen to a portion of the playerbase. Even if they are (theoretically) wrong if it's only about the chance for a chance. Suspects of controversial Pokemon should happen because that will decide the debate, also it gives people more reason to play which is a nice bonus
 
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"Why would the council suspect something just because a portion of players want it suspected" than how DO they choose what suspect test to do? Personal opinion only?
Our collective opinion as a council is the decider in suspect decisions, yes. With this said, we have a plethora of data from surveys and written arguments to survey from the community. Based on the most recent data sample, Ogeron-Wellspring isn’t close to the most supported Pokemon to receive a suspect or ban. In addition, multiple council members have noted that they do not find it banworthy.

Just because a loud handful may be outspoken in saying X needs a suspect or ban doesn’t mean it represents the playerbase or it has to happen. This is one of many things that are examined.
 
Is it public information who is the most supported pokemon for a suspect according to this data?
Yes, actually! The most recent Survey's results can be found here. Dragonite has the highest support for a ban from the qualified playerbase, while Wellspring has the highest support from the general population (although Kyurem, then Dragonite, are not far behind.)

Wellspring is incredibly obnoxious to fight and it's usually a crit away from stealing a game, but Dragonite's the far more likely suspect test. Thank goodness for when that happens, I never want to fight a mono attacker Tera Flying Dragonite again.
 
"Why would the council suspect something just because a portion of players want it suspected" than how DO they choose what suspect test to do? Personal opinion only?
What i hear is that you think I'm stupid for thinking the council should listen to a portion of the playerbase. Even if they are (theoretically) wrong if it's only about the chance for a chance. Suspects of controversial Pokemon should happen because that will decide the debate, also it gives people more reason to play which is a nice bonus
I agree that controversial pokemon should be suspected and honestly, I wouldn't even mind a suspect of Wogerpon at this point even if I personally don't think it is banworthy. However, complaining and making your argument on the forums is not going to make the council suddenly go "hey this small group of players is complaining maybe we should do it now!" I think what makes the forums cool is that it allows other people to see your argument and agree to support it. Tiering action happens because those people that support an argument to ban (or sometimes unban) something become the majority. You and the other people making the argument in the first place aren't the majority it is all the people who support that argument that do. However, there wasn't a big enough group of people who thought Wogerpon was worth suspecting on the survey. If you want Wogerpon to be suspected, then you have to make a good argument and hope enough people that vote on the survey support your argument.

(If that makes any sense lol)

Edit: In hindsight idk why I made this post when Finchinator said it way better in less words lmao.
 
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:Clefable::Blissey::Jirachi::Gliscor::Dondozo::Tornadus-Therian:

Metronome (the move) adds cheese to the game without any strategic or competitive gain.
We had Acupressure banned for potentially violating the evasion clause.
Metronome is capable of violating not only the evasion clause but also the OH-KO moves clause.
Some examples in the mid ladder of anti-competitive play.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2483958070-1pm4v15dllbgkm2qcg2r1dfhrn1q9jwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485253448-uhibem1jx77shjifj1d5p7mfuwyxpuxpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485720435-o5kv2a4fgieyejy442uuqd01oi8vxn7pw?p2
It's not a priority, but I believe the question should be "why not ban it?", instead of the common "why ban it?"
 
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