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Proposal Smogon Tour Times II

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Back for another discussion about Smogon Tour times, and I would like to make a few suggestions that would hopefully be considered or accepted this time around that takes this post from Merritt last year into account:

Merritt said:
I would strongly prefer that we A) figure out a way to adjust the single Smogon Tour's timing so that greater global participation is reasonable, though the how is very up in the air, maybe put it in summer instead of spring, B) if adding another tournament to the schedule, lean away from the livetour format that makes it difficult for players in certain countries to participate (as done with Smogon Masters which has been a success by most metrics), or C) at the very least have the second "Smogon Tour" not run the same metagames so that we can at least justify its absolutely mandatory overlap somewhat better.

I think A is something that would help APAC regions participate in the tournament even with no change in the times due to timezones in the West being locked into daylight savings (not to mention that the summer months would be holiday season for students). Assuming that there are no logistical difficulties with swapping the starting times of say OLT and STour (although an early July start date might be better for STour instead of the late July/early August start date for OLT), I strongly believe that the tournament should be pushed to the summer months.

As for time changes, with a year to think about what Western players have said about any potential time changes, I would like to propose the following set of times for the Smogon Tour in 2026:

Friday 6pm -4
Saturday 11:30am -4
Sunday midnight -4


1. This preserves the classic Friday 6pm -4 timeslot that has historically proven to be amenable for both the US and Europe at large, and a big part of why previous attempts to cater to the APAC region have been criticised as it was shifted by 2-3 hours that is not really viable for most people.

2. The timeslots should be reasonable for most players in the West, and still prioritises them over APAC regions in general:

  • Players from the East coast can plausibly play in all three timeslots. The third one is later than ideal but it's not the end of the world to play late at night when the next day is a Sunday, and the second timeslot should be very playable to go alongside with the primetime timeslot of Friday 6pm -4.​
  • US regions in general have two 'good/workable' timeslots and one that is still possible to play at even if some compromises have to be made. For example, West coast players will not have the greatest time playing on Saturday morning at 8:30am, but that combined with 3pm on Friday and 9pm on Saturday should at least be somewhat reasonable if not outright good.​
  • Western and Central Europe are unfortunately more or less locked into the first two timeslots, but with the Friday slot being immensely popular in the region while the Saturday timeslot should be a relatively comfortable hour in the afternoon, I believe that this arrangement gives them a better spread than the APAC region in general and respects the fact that communities in the region have historically been (and still are for the time being) larger than that of APAC.​
  • Eastern Europe will have the option of flexing between a late night timeslot and a very early morning timeslot to go along with their evening timeslot on Saturday, which is more or less in line with APAC regions.​
  • These timeslots are obviously a lot better than the existing ones and should generally be workable for APAC region players. Here are the times for various APAC regions with a decent presence in the community:​
    • India (+5.5): Saturday 3:30am, Saturday 9pm (primetime for Indians as MAVERICK SHOOTERS told me a while ago), Sunday 9:30am​
    • China (+8): Saturday 6am, Saturday 11:30pm, Sunday noon​
    • Australian CDT (+10:30): Saturday 8:30am, Sunday 2am, Sunday 2:30pm​
    • New Zealand ST (+12): Saturday 10am, Sunday 3:30am, Sunday 4pm​
  • The timezones of Latin America/Canada and Africa are not too dissimilar to that of the US and Europe respectively, so this should be workable for players from those regions as well.​
I believe that this proposal should be palatable for most players around the world while acknowledging the fact that players from the West contribute more to the site and should be catered to if possible. I hope that TDs can implement this so the Smogon Tour can maintain its status as the premier individual tournament on Smogon going forward as regions around the world with vastly different timezones grow on the website. But in the case that this proposal might have missed something important and is rejected, I believe that moving the tournament to the summer months and swapping the Saturday/Sunday timeslots (staying up late on Saturday night is a lot more doable for motivated individuals who want to compete regardless of timezones) should be considered by tournament staff.
 
First, so that people can get an idea of the suggested times without messing up conversions, here's them with dynamic date-time display. Disregard the day (I just used the last fri/sat/sun), instead it's about the listed time.

Friday - <t:1752271200:R>

Saturday - <t:1752334200:R>

Sunday - <t:1752379200:R>

(as a reminder to those used to 24h time, 12am is midnight and 12pm is noon)

If anybody proposes times, I would strongly encourage also using a dynamic time stamp to make it easier for people to determine what relative time they're dealing with. Personally I think that it's been shown that messing with the times hasn't gone well enough times by now that we shouldn't make yet another attempt, for the record.


For moving Smogon Tour to summer - a preliminary idea would be to move around Classic and Masters, then shift OLT slightly. Masters would take Smogon Tour's previous place in March, Classic would move to September (potentially late August, goal would be to have it conclude before SPL draft happens), move OLT a little later in July/early August so that the laddering cycles still finish before September, and have Smogon Tour begin in early June or potentially late May.

I'm fairly strongly of the belief that OLT should have at least its laddering cycles firmly in the summer, and we're not planning to move the teamtour timing much if at all, but the other individuals around that time are slightly more malleable. Note that Grand Slam should not be planned to be shifted sooner in the year, as that would require a second restructuring any year with a fall generation drop.
 
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Speaking from GMT+2 (in summer, in winter is +1) perspective, the current times for me personally are pretty bad. I am unable to play the Friday tour due to being asleep already, if I survive long enough on Saturday's one I will be falling asleep and Sunday's one is the only decent for me, though its right before dinner and would be way better if it was one hour earlier (same goes for Saturday, one hour earlier for me personally would be really good).

The new proposed times for me... are even worse. Now I have unavailable both Friday and Sunday, while Saturday one comes at a time that try to not be at home most of Satudays. Sure, they might be more inclussive for other regions, but at least, from the perspective of someone who doesn,t want to play on Saturday's evening and goes to sleep early, these times are unviable. They would be a little better if the times of Saturday and Sunday tours were swapped, Sunday's evening is not as valuable as Saturday's one. I think other Europeans also don,t want to play at 17:30 on Saturday specifically, so its not just my own problem either.

Since OLT was mentioned, despite being unlikely to try that tour ever again, when I played that tour I found it being in summer very unfair for people that have a job compared to people that study. People that have school/college/university don,t have those in summer, therefore they have a big amount of time to ladder. Meanwhile, most of people who have a job, still have it in summer, therefore they have less time. If the tour was done in any other season, it would be equally "uncomfortable" for students and workers, therefore more fair for all of them. Of course, there are also people that neither study or work, but those will always have advantage no matter what is done.
 
The new proposed times for me... are even worse. Now I have unavailable both Friday and Sunday, while Saturday one comes at a time that try to not be at home most of Satudays. Sure, they might be more inclussive for other regions, but at least, from the perspective of someone who doesn,t want to play on Saturday's evening and goes to sleep early, these times are unviable. They would be a little better if the times of Saturday and Sunday tours were swapped, Sunday's evening is not as valuable as Saturday's one. I think other Europeans also don,t want to play at 17:30 on Saturday specifically, so its not just my own problem either.
To be fair it would also mean that East Asia will be playing close to midnight on Sunday, which is less than ideal :worrywhirl:

But I absolutely see your concern and would be open to the third slot being held at say <t:1753030800:R> (Sunday 1pm -4 if I've somehow messed up the timestamp) or slightly later so South/Central Asia can still play at a somewhat reasonable time while the West coast gets something that's not either potentially a work hour for them or early in the morning.

I am surprised by you saying that the Friday timeslot is unviable for you though - my impression was that Americans and Europeans loved that timeslot and do not want it changed, which is why I did not touch it in my proposal. If this timeslot is not something that Europeans particularly care about while being a potential work hour for Americans living west of the East coast, is something like <t:1752890400:R> (10pm -4 on Friday) that unreasonable (could be slightly earlier as well)? It would be a lot better for East Asia and Oceania so the third timeslot can be held deeper into the afternoon for American timezones like it was this year.
 
To be fair it would also mean that East Asia will be playing close to midnight on Sunday, which is less than ideal :worrywhirl:

But I absolutely see your concern and would be open to the third slot being held at say <t:1753030800:R> (Sunday 1pm -4 if I've somehow messed up the timestamp) or slightly later so South/Central Asia can still play at a somewhat reasonable time while the West coast gets something that's not either potentially a work hour for them or early in the morning.

I am surprised by you saying that the Friday timeslot is unviable for you though - my impression was that Americans and Europeans loved that timeslot and do not want it changed, which is why I did not touch it in my proposal. If this timeslot is not something that Europeans particularly care about while being a potential work hour for Americans living west of the East coast, is something like <t:1752890400:R> (10pm -4 on Friday) that unreasonable (could be slightly earlier as well)? It would be a lot better for East Asia and Oceania so the third timeslot can be held deeper into the afternoon for American timezones like it was this year.

Dont worry about the Friday one, at least in Spain I am the only guy who usually goes to sleep around 23:00, in Spain most people go to sleep at like 2 am and even though its an outlier in Europe, most people are able to play the current Friday tour, here I am the exception, not the norm.
The Sunday proposed time (the one of the first post) is entirely unviable for all of Europe though.
 
Every year the players that live in Asia and Oceania, understandably, make the case that Tour should cater to them, and every year some well meaning people "feel" that the Tour times changing to cater to those people will serve a lot of people without any loss of quality to the tour, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You can read Amaranth's posts here and here to see why this isn't actually how that works, but maybe it's unfair to expect everyone to be as familiar with this discussion and its numbers as people that have been talking about it for years, so to make sure everyone is on the same page I updated the table Amaranth posted in that thread with the numbers from tour 37.

Season 31 had 6/4/2 times, season 33 had an Asian friendly time on Fridays, Season 35 had the most Asian friendly format possible with 4 tours per week and season 37 had 6/4/2 times again.

6cD61sR.png


Smogon players aren't distributed equitably around the globe, or even proportionally to a country's population. The overwhelming majority of users of the site, and players of this tournament, live in the slice of the world covered by the -8 to +2 timezones, to the point that any time that moves away even slightly from that axis comes with a giant cost in terms of players (would be interesting to see a breakdown of Smogon users by country if that's something SS has access to). Look at the above table, the most inclusive times possible result in not only the lowest numbers ever on an individual tour basis, but on an individual week basis, and in the lowest number of unique players too.

Let's say we do change the times for Season 38, if the sign-up numbers predictably go down again, do we go back to 6/4/2 for Season 39? Just seesaw every year? I propose not only that we don't change the times which are proven to work, but that we freeze the Tour times at 6/4/2 for the next 3 years, then we can try again and see if enough people from Asia and Oceania have joined the community to make those times viable without making the tournament worse for everyone else.
 
I've read through the many iterations of this thread and I wanted to give my opinion since I feel pretty strongly about having accessible times for India / other APAC regions.

Personally I've never understood some peoples obsession with "quality" or the number of participants each week of STour. Like Week 8 of SM OU #1 having 48~ players is some kind of personal offense against them. A horrific tragedy that must never ever happen. I won't deny that Americas/Europe have the largest playerbases and that the current times are the most convenient for the highest number of people. But it does come at the cost of a lot of people in some timezones basically having no chance to play. It doesn't personally affect me, I live in US now and East Coast is p much the "best" timezone for Smogon tours and stuff. And from that perspective, I kinda get how silly it looks, it's easy to laugh and be like "hahaha the 10 Indian/Chinese/Aussie players are whining about STour times again LOOOOL ahahah" but when you're in those timezones and STour season rolls around, and you see everyone having fun playing the tour and trying to qual and you're just cut out cuz of timezones (unless you have a really shit sleep schedule) it sucks. Some robot brains might look at the pure numbers and think we have the objective times but I think it's worth trying to find a compromise that allows people from APAC regions to play and still have convenient enough times for the bigger regions, even if it's just maybe 1 out the 3 tours that have a decent time for APAC players. A lot of these regions have growing / very new playerbases and it's good to have another individual tour for new players to see and aspire to qualify for. It'll probably have less players than the original times, maybe even just be good for 6-7 new players. But I think it's worth more for everyone to have a chance to participate over some vague stamp of "quality" that seems to be the defining reason for why it shoudn't happen.

As for timings I prefer the ones used in st 33/34 over the first proposal

9 am GMT EST (GMT-4 currently) on Saturdays
4 pm GMT EST (GMT-4 currently) on Saturdays
2 pm GMT EST (GMT-4 currently) on Sundays

Though nothing really that good for Australia. Maybe the 4pm tour on saturday could be later like 7-8pm? I think that change would have 2 good slots for the big regions (Tour 1 and 3 for Europe, 2 and 3 for west coat and all the times are workable for east coast and South America) and atleast 1 for APAC regions. Maybe something more optimal could be found, I will leave that to people smarter than me. The first tour might have worse participation cuz its an unviable time for west coast and maybe east coast / SA guys dont wanna play in the morning which leaves Europe and the much smaller playerbase of APAC but I dont think this seriously hurts any major region beyond being maybe a bit less convenient than the current times. I hope if a change like this gets implemented people wont freak out like its the end of the world when the APAC centric tour gets lower numbers and immediately revert back to the usual schedule. Let the APAC players have a chance, the tour will run just fine.

I wrote this some time ago but I wanted to add more in reference to Luigi's table

Total No. of Unique Participants
Smogon Tour 31: 750
Smogon Tour 32: 635
Smogon Tour 33: 665
Smogon Tour 34: 558
Smogon Tour 35: 587
Smogon Tour 36: 593
Smogon Tour 37: 733

ST 36 was conducted with the usual 6/4/2 times, and ST 32 I believe had the friday tour changed to saturday 6am est and it was reverted by week 4 to the usual schedule. Both of them have a pretty similar turnout to 33-35 which had APAC friendly times. Overall I do think the 6/4/2 times are more conducive to a higher number of signups since the 2 largest tours here in ST 31 and 37 had the 6/4/2 times but I think it's disingenuous to say having an APAC friendly time totally screwed up the tour and is the only reason why a tour might have lower signups. Both ST 35 and 36 are spring tours with nearly identical no. of participants, even though 35 had the 4 tours per week and 36 was 6/4/2. I think some external factors, like ST 31 being held only a year after covid lockdowns or ST 37 being a year after 36 and maybe having more hype due to that could also be reasons why those tours had higher numbers. Overall I don't think the disparity in total numbers between an APAC friendly tour and the usual ones are as big as the above table seems to suggest.
 
To my knowledge (I asked get backer on discord) there has never been a season tried where the 3 times were:

APAC+America
APAC+Europe
Europe+America

Obviously, by design one tour would be inaccessible for everyone but when you can only play in 2 tours a week that shouldn't matter. Maybe it is possible that globalizing livetours won't work, as get backer loves to say, but I think it is too hasty to say this without trying such an obvious solution.

I've seen some "figures" floating about like Asia/Oceania being only 5% of the smogon userbase, which is surely an exaggeration, but looking at SPL/SCL and WCOP (obviously) a significant portion of the site's top talent resides in these regions and is currently pseudo-excluded. If you wanna talk about competitive integrity, let's talk about that, because if we want tournaments to be about showcasing our finest players, including 5 random dudes from Minnesota (no offense Minnesotans) over 1 SPL level Chinese player is the wrong way to go about it. Also, a lot of people love to pretend that only STour/OLT exist and so these tours (mostly STour) being inhospitable for anyone with a positive timezone can really hurt the development of these regions when it comes to newcomer players getting recognised and drafted in big tours. It's lowkey like the baseball colour line but for Pokemon.

Anyway, the one problem with this idea is finding a way to make it work comfortably with the days of the week, I'm sure there's a way you could do it where they all take place on the weekend, which should be good enough for most people, and if possible Saturday nights should be avoided, but I'll leave finding the days/times to hosts who know more about that stuff. The idea is fundamentally sound, and while I'm sure at first people might complain that one time isn't designed for them to be playing it, I'm sure they'll be able to adapt to the two which are. Give it a shot.
 
Bumping this thread six months later. I apologize for the massive post, and I know it's a busy period with policy, but I figured that if anything is going to happen here it probably shouldn't be much later than this.

I wanted to put together some more thorough numbers because I think the info Amaranth posted here has been guiding a lot of the policy here, and while I think Amaranth has put a ton of effort into trying to make this tour more inclusive, I would argue that that data is leading some commentators to be too dismissive of the issues with the status quo. I had two general questions I wanted to answer. First, is it actually true, as Luigi claimed here, that players for whom the current STour times are unviable constitute an overwhelming minority? And second, is there more specific data that we can gather about who the current times are working for and who they aren't?

So let's start with this: I am not going to argue that the overwhelming majority of Smogon users fall within the -8 to +2 time zones. It would make sense, given that this is an English-speaking forum, and it makes sense given that the times in STours 33-35 that made the tour less convenient for Americans saw overall declines in attendance. However, I have found it strange that for this tournament specifically it's almost entirely the general website's demographics that are cited as opposed to the demographics of tour players. I remember reading this, in the context of tournament representation for Monotype and Draft, and generally agreeing that tournaments should be structured in service of the people playing tournaments first and foremost. So let's do a quick bit of math. Is it actually true that the Asia/Oceania demographic is miniscule if the focus is on tournament players?

I took two samples: people who have played in SPL/SCL between 2023 and 2025, and people who have made top 16 at an individual between 2023 and 2025. I then tried to identify how many were from the Americas, how many were from Europe/Africa, and how many were from Asia/Oceania. My "methodology" was based entirely on the nationality people claim for WCOP/subforum WCs, although I did have a few cases of players who have never signed up for one while repeatedly stating their time zone for scheduling purposes. There's no IP address collecting or anything else that's not public information; I'm not interested in a repeat of that Natdex Tera debacle. Disclaimer: there are a few people for whom I couldn't find a nationality for; this is 11 people out of the roughly 450 players to play in the relevant teamtours and 4 out of the roughly 200 players to have made top 16 at an individual in that span.

Yes, this means that my estimates for where players are from could diverge from their actual timezones. To me, the most intuitive way that they could be wrong is that it counts Asian players living in the States under their Asian timezones when they're actually better served by a schedule that serves Americans. I would argue that the conclusion of "we know there's a substantial population of Asian players but the status quo where they can only participate in STour if they come to the States is fine" is not better.

These stats don't adjust for level of performance; it treats a trophy win and a top-16 exit the same. I don't really think that accommodations should be differentially offered according to how good you are. Up-and-coming playerbases are going to improve if they can keep playing against top competition, after all. If you want to object to this assumption, then you should also actually dig through the data to argue that players from Asia/Oceania are disproportionately worse than players from other regions. That's not at all intuitive to me from a cursory glance at the data; for one, this year has a trophy winner from this region (Separation) and a finalist (SeaLife), and last year had a ChrisPBacon finals and a pair of DugZa semis, and for another, we have all sorts of excellent teamtour runs from this region, most famously Piyu's 10-0.

53.7% of players in the teamtour sample here are from the Americas, 36.12% are from Europe/Africa, and 10.18% are from Asia/Oceania. This counts players who participated in multiple tours once for each tour. If we instead only count unique tournament participants, we instead get the following numbers: 51.61% of the teamtour sample is from the Americas, 37.42% are from Europe/Africa, and 10.97% are from Asia/Oceania.

How about the individual tour sample? Here, 54.74% of players are from the Americas, 36.7% are from Europe/Africa, and 8.56% are from Asia/Oceania. Again, if we stop double-counting the players who made multiple players, it looks like this: 53.13% from the Americas, 36.46% from Europe/Africa, and 10.42% from Asia/Oceania.

So let's call it 10% of the tournament playerbase being from Asia/Oceania. Is that a lot? I mean, it's less than both the Americas and less than Europe/Africa. But it's also only a smaller portion than US Northeast and maybe US South, and it's a comparable portion to France. There's more tournament players in Asia and Oceania than in any other European country (that includes Italy, Germany and Spain). It's a larger part of the tournament playerbase than US West, US Midwest, Brazil, and Latin America. It's obviously silly to compare this whole region to individual countries, but I think it's very apparent that if another part of the tournament schedule structurally excluded US West or France, then adjustments would keep happening until it's no longer an issue. For that matter, I'd be willing to bet that ORAS players are a fair bit less than 10% of the tournament playerbase, and the prospect of ORAS being removed from the tournament lineup necessitated a new tournament entirely.

Now, if you're willing to indulge a limited sample, I will point out that of the 32 players to make STour playoffs since the attempts to make the schedule more inclusive ended, only 1 of them (3.13%) is from Asia or Oceania (weird mon). For reference, anyone speculating that Masters would be an improvement in this regard would be correct, as there's 4 of them over that span (DugZa, Dj Breloominati, NoName6293, and ChrisPBacon twice). The only tournament that's been worse in terms of representation from Asia/Oceania in that span is Classic, and in that case I'm willing to blame it on playerbase disparities given that Void, Lady Bug, Pkel and violet river were the only Classic gens players from Asia/Oceania this past SPL. But this isn't an issue for STour. If your response to this is "you can draw any conclusion if you're willing to cut the sample size small enough", I'll say "fine, read the paragraphs in the spoiler tags".

Let's start with some groundwork. The following chart contains information for STours 37 and 36, which both used 6-4-2 time slots. It contains the total number of points awarded in each qualifying phase, along with the percent of that total awarded on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. In addition, because I am going to be sorting players according to their regions and so the full sample is going to be unmanageable, I needed a cutoff. So I'm using the top 169 placements from STour 37 (everyone with at least 10 points) and the top 187 placements in STour 36 (everyone with at least 6 points), and sorting their Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays accordingly. That's arbitrary beyond the fact that I wanted a large sample where I could identify most players and I wanted roughly similar sample sizes. Anyone who wants to yell at me for a lack of statistical rigour is free to do so). As you can see, STour 37 had a different scoring system with more total points, but the proportions are basically the same. Sundays are the smallest, Fridays are a bit larger than Sundays, Saturdays are clearly the biggest.

1765336839439.png

Now, we'll divide those totals according to their regions. I was able to identify a region for everyone in the STour 37 sample but just all but 4 for STour 36, so there's admittedly a bit of error here. There's going to be noise, since this is only a two year sample, but let's see if there's anything useful here:
1765386446405.png


In an attempt to prevent your eyes from glazing over, I've highlighted the parts that I find interesting here. Let's deal with them in turn.
- in blue, you can compare how the shape of each country's production compares with each other's. The sample from the Americas puts up points in basically the same shape as the average; Sunday is the least productive day, Friday is slightly better, and Saturday is the most productive. Europe, meanwhile, has a similar shape too. It's Asia and Oceania where things differ, however; in both years, Sunday was the most productive day for those demographics, with Friday being consistently poor and Saturday fluctuating. The Sunday results are driven by India, Bangladesh, and Asia (which notably contains various players from Pakistan and the Middle East), and Indian players in particular illustrates that this slot is beneficial because it allows them to start before midnight
- in red, you can see that these samples of the top 170 and 187 players in the qualifying phase respectively line up with the overall tour player demographics. This is a point that Amaranth made in this post, to illustrate that representation of players from Asia and Oceania wasn't actually that off. I started this post off by arguing that these regions make up about 10% of the tournament playerbase, and here they're sitting in the 9-10% range. That's about what we'd expect, right? Except...
- in green, you see that in both years players from Asia and Oceania underperform their sample size; they get fewer points than we'd expect from just looking at their raw representation. This makes sense; any Asian and Oceanian players in this tournament are playing at brutal hours, as should be obvious from looking at the schedule and has been repeatedly mentioned in every iteration of this conversation over the past several years. If nothing else, the takeaway should concern how exactly it's misleading to just focus on the best-performing players from these regions to assess if there's an issue. There are going to be a few players that ruin their sleep schedule and grind enough to make it, even with unfavourable hours. That doesn't change that there is evidence that players from these regions, in general underperform in the tournament whose ruleset makes no attempt to accommodate them.

To some extent I'm wasting my time here. The people who consistently understate the extent to which accessibility is a real issue for this tournament are a vocal minority; it's pretty obvious that STour's setup is highly unfavourable for players from Asia and Oceania. The more common view seems to be, rather, that this tournament's schedule has been adjusted several times, and the attempts to do so have led to reduced attendance overall. To that, I argue that the current schedule might be optimal for maximizing participant count, but it's clearly not optimal for maximizing participation among the tournament playerbase. If a reduction in overall entrants is an unacceptable price to pay for this tournament to properly accommodate 10% of the players who can actually contend for a playoff spot, then it seems like some other solution is warranted. But before I move on from this point, let's take a deeper dive into one of the tournaments in which accommodations were made. Is it true that they didn't work?

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Okay, so let's get the obvious out of the way. Numbers were down here, they would rebound in STour 36. You already know this. It's also probably obvious, although it's worth pointing out, that the culprit was the "Friday" time absolutely collapsing, which of course was a Saturday 9 am Eastern time slot instead. You'll also notice that the Sunday slot was the strongest here, and that makes sense to me; if the "Friday" time is no longer a viable time slot for the Americas, then they're going to need to find their two slots elsewhere. That wasn't enough to avoid the net loss in participants. We know this.

So let's talk about the interesting parts:
- in red, we can see that in our "top performer" sample, which here is the sample of the 169 players with 5+ points to keep a comparable sample size, the Americas are underrepresented compared to the 50-55% of the tournament playerbase that they represent. No surprises there. What's interesting is that it's actually European and African players who benefited. With North and South Americans not picking up wins here, the +0 to +3ish time zones were overrepresented here. This makes sense too; 9 am -4 is 2 pm in London and 3 pm in Paris, which suddenly gives them three viable timeslots to choose from. But the increase in representation for players from Asia and Oceania never came; both the raw numbers and the proportions are worse than they would be in either STour 36 or 37.
- in green, we see how the points were distributed. Despite the poor representation of players from the Americas, they picked up a greater proportion of the points than you'd expect from their representation: still clearly shows that Americans were turned away with 2-2.5 viable times, but they were still the best-performing demographic. It's the Asian and Oceanian players who cratered even further. Why? I'll propose a few factors, but first, let's cover the last point.
- in blue, you can see the shape of the point production for each region, and here the trends are clear. The Americas actually got a lot of value out of that Sunday slot, which is still a great time for them, but with much of the hemisphere locked out of the new Saturday morning slot, they got nothing out of it. And second, players from Asia and Oceania did, in fact, use that new extra Saturday timeslot. They're not huge numbers, but there were in fact Indian players that benefited from that time slot, like TDR and So Noisy. India generally did much better in STour 36, and we'll get into that later, but of the players who got at least 6 points, only one of them got any points on Friday at all, and that's vk with 2. And while Piyu put up a monstrous 15 points on Fridays in STour 37, Maverick Shooters's 5 were the only others. Meanwhile, Oceanian players got a ton of value out of that slot, Saturday midnight at local time. damien the genius, Leavers, Chloe and DugZa all got a ton of value out of that slot. Basically, even though the overall numbers make it look like players from Asia and Oceania didn't benefit from this slot, what actually happened is that the gains they got from the changed Friday slot were real, but didn't make up for getting essentially no production in the Saturday and Sunday slots.

So what happened here? We know that the STour 34 times were catastrophic for participation in the Western Hemisphere, but why did Asian and Oceanian players get so little benefit? Well, here are a few thoughts:
- India is one of the playerbases (alongside China) that would benefit the most from such a slot today, and their playerbases just weren't as strong at the time. Aside from pj, most of India's best players weren't yet threats in 2022; NoName, vk, Piyu, Maverick Shooters and IPF are all players with strong performances in extremely unfavourable STour schedules in 2024 and 2025, and that's not even including myjava and Dj Breloominati. This is also a fairly obvious thing to point out by looking at WCOP performance; Team India is stronger now than it's ever been.
- It'd be easy to sit here and say that what happened is that India and Oceania benefited from benefiting on beating up on competition largely devoid of players from the Americas while just not being good enough to beat them when they actually showed up. I think that's highly reductive. For one, no one would ever suggest that Europe's playerbase is weak, and now they had a Saturday afternoon slot to play in. The total participation in that Friday slot was lower, but anyone getting points there was still facing strong players. I'm going to avoid attaching screenshots here because this post is already massive as is, but, feel free to look up the brackets.
- Lower participation numbers in a single slot means that that slot now awards fewer points. This is the issue with all of these plans, and the result is that if you want to actually qualify, you need to do well in the other time slots.
- It's not realistic for most players to qualify for STour while only playing one slot per week, and even those who benefited from a Friday slot with fewer Americans now had to deal with increased competition in another time slot where, once again, they were playing at unviable hours. Remember, the other "good" timeslot for Indian players is 11:30pm on Sunday. The other "good" timeslot for Australian players is 7am Sunday.

If your fear is that I'm cherry-picking a single tournament from 33-35, I didn't get more data because that's even more time-consuming here. For what it's worth, though, there were 15 players from Asia/Oceania out of the top 179 point-getters, for 8.38%. Low, and if we look at the distribution of points, they got 8.03% of the points in that sample. And again, the shape is about what you'd expect. The best players from these regions benefited from a time that actually catered to them; ChrisPBacon qualified largely by racking up a ton of points in that 6am -4 slot, and while pj didn't qualify, the majority of their points came from there too. Because it cut out the vast majority of Americans, though, it was worth far fewer points.

In case you didn't feel like reading more words in what's already a very long post, the tl;dr is as follows. First, the current schedule might be optimized to maximize participant counts, but because players from Asia and Oceania make up a greater proportion of the tourmanent playerbase than the site userbase, it's not optimized to meet the needs of the tournament playerbase. Second, while it's true that the Saturday 9am slot cut out far more Americans than could possibly be made up for with an increase in players from Asia and Oceania, those players did demonstrably benefit from a slot that was viable for them, but it wasn't enough in a tour where you realistically need to play twice a week. I'm not saying that was necessarily an acceptable price to pay for that solution. What I am saying, though, is that players from Asia and Oceania already make up a substantial chunk of the tournament playerbase, in greater proportions than their representation on the site's userbase as a whole, that the structure of Smogon Tour largely excludes 10% of the players that can and do compete in every other tournament on the site, and that changes made to make the tour more accessible do, in fact, meaningfully make the tour more accessible.

I also agree that making a big post that says "you have to do something and you can't just pretend this isn't an issue" rings very hollow without offering an improvement. So here are some suggestions of "things that could be an improvement".

Option 1: Eastern Conference Qualifier. These are options that do not require you to move the three existing time slots to thread the needle across 7 continents. This is very standard in all sorts of sports with international competition; I mean, VGC has regional qualifiers. In Amaranth's original post that keeps getting cited he literally mentions Eastern Conference qualifiers in the last paragraph, I don't know why they never got brough up again. Anyway, there are a few ways you could do it.
  • You could bring back the 4th timeslot, put it somewhere like 4pm Saturday +8 so that it's good for all of Asia and Oceania, and give the end-of-season points leader or top 2 automatic playoff spots (I think this is the best of the qualifier options).
  • You could just give the top-placing player whose IP puts them in an Asia or Oceania time zone an automatic playoff spot.
  • You could reserve one playoff spot for the winner of a single two-day double elimination live tour over the +8 Saturday and Sunday daytime.
  • If the thought of an automatic playoff spot for a timeslot that's not available to Americans makes you squeamish, then maybe do something like run six weeks of that time slot, and then give the top 8 point-getters a single elimination bracket for the last three weeks to get that last slot.
Two huge problems with the four-slot system as it was in STour 35, beyond just the supposed embarrassment of a 48-player tournament. First, those tiny tournaments award basically no points, meaning that you should probably prioritize a tournament that awards more points, and then you have a timeslot that no one wants to use that serves no purpose. If it offers a qualifying spot on its own, then it serves its purpose even with low attendance. Even if attendance IS low, I would absolutely bet that some tournament-caliber player who can't access the standard time zones would show up to farm it, at least. Second, the fourth slot right now is still meant to be theoretically reachable for Americans. If you are going to have a slot that's specifically meant to be accessible to Asia and Oceania, then give them an actual good time during their daytime. Americans have three others.

Option 2: moving the times to be more inclusive. This has been tried three times already and while none of the past attempts were perfect, I'm also sympathetic to the idea that the tournament benefits from continuity and avoiding constant changes. If any sort of qualifier is unpalatable, I'll provide yet another set of options here. My proposal would be 9 or 10 pm Friday -4, noon Saturday -4, 2 pm Sunday -4 (in GMT that's 01:00-02:00 Saturday, 16:00 Saturday, 18:00 Sunday).
  • That Friday time might evoke unfavourable comparisons to the 8pm -4 time in STour 35. I would argue that later is better. As someone in the -4 timezone, 6pm to 9-10 pm is a lateral move, maybe slight downgrade. You can still sleep at a reasonable time for a Friday night, and while you lose out on any sort of nightlife plans, you can actually play while also having dinner plans before. Yes, this cuts out Europe. The thing is, the 8 pm time also cut out Europe, and the current 6 pm time still kinda sucks for Europe even if it's viable. The issue is that 8 pm doesn't actually reap the benefits of shifting later; it's better for Oceania, but it's still pretty early for US West, and it's still 5:30 am for India and 8 am for China. If you shift an hour or two beyond that, at the cost of Europe and some convenience for US East, you have a comfortable slot for Oceania and US West, a viable slot for China, and a possible slot for India. The 9 vs 10 pm question to me would mainly concern Brazil at -3; not sure what's best.
  • If you're cutting out Europe entirely from a slot then you need the other two to work great for that range of timezones. That means shifting the 4 pm slot earlier. This proposal moves it to noon -4. I know the data shows that this is the busiest slot, and as someone who lives in the -4 timezone I do get it, it's a good timeslot to have after your daytime plans while you prep for dinner, and then you can go out after. But at the same time, it's still a daytime slot! If you want to play, you need to plan your early afternoon around it anyway. If you go to noon -4, it's marginally more annoying. The actual losers are US West, who get a better Friday slot and a worse Saturday slot, but both are still viable (although I wouldn't go earlier on Saturday). The winners are Europe, who get a Saturday slot that's less disruptive on the evenings. You also, crucially, get a genuinely reasonable India slot (9:30pm) and a viable China slot (midnight +8).
  • India and China now have two viable slots. The last slot should be good for both US West and Europe to give these massive playerbase centers two good options, and really, the best time there is still 2pm Sunday. Any earlier and it starts getting restrictive for West, any later and it starts getting restrictive on a Sunday night for Europe.
  • Other options. Swapping Saturday and Sunday with the existing times makes India's late night a bit more manageable. Swapping to Saturday 2pm -4 and Sunday noon -4 has more upsides, because now people in US East don't have to risk playing from 9-midnight and then playing again right when they wake up, and it's probably a bit better for India because now the 11:30pm night is a Saturday rather than a Sunday, but it's worse for China.

Option 3: STour 2 - Eastern Conference. To be clear, I think this is the least likely option to work. The issue here is that any attempt that's "current STour times but more attempts to schedule it to accommodate a global audience" is going to run into the same issues as the current one, which is that you're likely going to see lower overall participation numbers, and that clearly hasn't been an acceptable price to pay.
  • You can focus on keeping the 6-4-2 schedule (or a minor variation) and shifting it to +8 or something. If you don't think it is possible to find time zones that work for both the Eastern and Western Hemispheres, then accept that you need two different sets of times and give options that are actually good for each range.
  • You could go back to awarding two pink trophies per year, one for each tournament.
  • If you find that thought revolting, as I'm sure many people will, you could make them award a single combined pink trophy, make the qualifying phases run concurrently and combine them for the playoffs. Could be that it's top 16 point-getters across both tours combined (if Asia and Oceania don't draw players to their tour then that combined playoff will be dominated by the Western Conference qualifiers, and in the event that they DO draw players such that they can fill a combined playoff then Americans and Europeans probably shouldn't be so arrogant that Asia and Oceania are beneath them).
  • Could just have the winners of each tour face off in a mutual thug finals for the trophy.
To be clear, none of these proposals involve doing away with Smogon Tour or making it something other than a livetour. That would be stupid. Masters exists now, and putting aside the specific grievances people may have with Masters it's very obvious that Masters isn't Smogon Tour. While it is a valuable addition on the basis that it completes OU representation without requiring any additional hurdles to accommodate a global audience, it doesn't actually offer what players in Asia and Oceania want when they lament their exclusion from Smogon Tour. Everyone knows this. But it seems like progress towards making this tournament more inclusive has stalled; the time slots went back to their historical norms (and entrant counts bounced back accordingly), and since Masters was introduced it doesn't seem like there's much appetite to add an 8th individual to the schedule. The goal of throwing all this data into the post is to illustrate that there actually is a meaningful issue here that is worth being prioritized, and if the first attempts to address the issue are too costly, then I don't think the "solution" of "let's go back to the status quo, it was fine, there are barely any people affected by this" is acceptable. If the TD team has been actively pondering future attempts at solutions here, I think they'd be very welcome.
 
While I do believe that the times proposed by ego have been the most palatable as of yet, I still believe we should just accept live tours are inherently unfair and keep the tournament as it is.

fwiw: I do like the idea of summer Smogon Tour!
 
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