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Media One Piece (spoilers!)

Honestly as someone who has a somewhat fresh memory of Dressrosa, Whole Cake, and Wano, Sugar deserved much more confinement in Impel Down than even Doffy himself. She's the reason Doffy was able to get what he wanted for ten years before the timeskip. If anything, Trebol practically groomed him into being much more bitter into growing the opposite way from Corazon.

To clarify, I mean objective moral weight. I am aware the WG does not have any bearing.
 
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Mova said:
Honestly as someone who has a somewhat fresh memory of Dressrosa, Whole Cake, and Wano, Sugar deserved much more confinement in Impel Down than even Doffy himself. She's the reason Doffy was able to get what he wanted for ten years before the timeskip. If anything, Trebol practically groomed him into being much more bitter into growing the opposite way from Corazon.
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We talking about objective moral weight or WG perspective? Obviously WG justice system in my mind has no bearing at all on actual justice.
 
Me consuming new OP chapters
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Coronis said:
I never expected him to be anything else tbh… how many flashback only characters are actually evil?
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Well there's Spandam's dad. But you're right though

I thought he was evil because there had to be a good reason for Garp and Roger to team up and the easiest explanation would be for Rocks to be evil. Also the way the Rocks crew was described made me believe that. And he was set up as a equivalent to Teach, and Teach is evil

The fact that several Rocks crew members were good people was a very clear sign in retrospect
 
Crack theory, but what if Imu is the only actually evil (major) character by the end of One Piece's ending? Everyone else, even Teach, Doflamingo, Lucci, and other major opponents, even if they don't necessarily start to like Luffy, could turn out to be "Not That Bad(TM)" for having a change of interest after they were defeated, no matter how many people they enabled the deaths of. It's kind of a sad way to redeem antagonists who haven't really earned redemption, but I wouldn't doubt it knowing the Power of "Allyship".

Oda mentioned somewhere he wanted to throw a big party ending like he often does at the end of most major arcs, so maybe those who were defeated are still invited but have to pull more weight in setting up to get the food they are hoping for. This could mean "everyone but the World Nobles" but still include major player WG employees, the Marines, and other pirate crews.
 
Mova said:
Crack theory, but what if Imu is the only actually evil (major) character by the end of One Piece's ending? Everyone else, even Teach, Doflamingo, Lucci, and other major opponents, even if they don't necessarily start to like Luffy, could turn out to be "Not That Bad(TM)" for having a change of interest after they were defeated, no matter how many people they enabled the deaths of. It's kind of a sad way to redeem antagonists who haven't really earned redemption, but I wouldn't doubt it knowing the Power of "Allyship".

Oda mentioned somewhere he wanted to throw a big party ending like he often does at the end of most major arcs, so maybe those who were defeated are still invited but have to pull more weight in setting up to get the food they are hoping for. This could mean "everyone but the World Nobles" but still include major player WG employees, the Marines, and other pirate crews.
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You're probably not too far off tbh. It's pretty well established at this point that Luffy's true power is his insane infectious charisma and ability to win people over. Luffy insists that he's selfish and wants the One Piece for himself, but yet he constantly fights for others.. as long as he gets the final blow and the ending is a true 1v1 with him and Imu (or whomever above Imu) I can see him fighting the final war with literally all and anybody else.

I've been saying something similar among my friends that the ending is going to be a big clash of "the Straw Hats (et al.)" and "the enemy", and I can see (et al.) just being basically everyone up to this point in the story.
 
Rocks was not a good guy he was just not a One Piece Villain. He didn't do any good deeds, beat up a child to meet his dad from whom he needs a favor, pirates were not and are not "good guys". Enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your good guy friend.

He might seem better than people thought, but how bad were you really thinking he'll be when all we knew was "he crashed the celestial dragons' genocide party".

Mova said:
Everyone else, even Teach, Doflamingo, Lucci, and other major opponents, even if they don't necessarily start to like Luffy, could turn out to be "Not That Bad(TM)" for having a change of interest after they were defeated, no matter how many people they enabled the deaths of.
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I did explicitly call it a crack theory for a reason. The whole shtick is that it was a stretch in more ways than one (hehe). The examples I brought up were not meant to be decent people, just lesser of several evils, regardless of which faction they belong to. Them helping crash out the CDs' genocide party sounded funny in a lighthearted way, even if it is for their own reasons.
 
Besides for Xebec there wasn't much good about these flashbacks. The Shakky Damsel in Distress gooning was annoying, Garp continues to be the by far worst written One Piece character (i'll never understand the fans of that character), and overall the previous mystique about the event was way better than these flashbacks with pretty much just clashes yet again, and not much loredumps either except for Xebec and Teach being descendants of Davy Jones.
 
shakky - kicks roger's ass
shakky - mysteriously kidnapped with ease
shakky - kyaaa she got rescued

harald at this point is just a walking mass of mistakes and bad decisions but with Good Intent, can't even say good heart mf's best friend and his family got wiped and he did nothing

when the flashback started there was no problem or obstacle to solve other than PR issues and the image of giant brutality, and harald has made no progress in decades while making sacrifices and now goes to beg them
 
I suppose we all read TCBscans around here

Are the swear words in the chapters translation issues, are they new in the original manga or were they always there and are only now translated?

Big Mom said fuck in a God Valley chapter and a character said bitch in the newest chapter. What was the japanese original?
 
Medeia said:
Besides for Xebec there wasn't much good about these flashbacks. The Shakky Damsel in Distress gooning was annoying, Garp continues to be the by far worst written One Piece character (i'll never understand the fans of that character), and overall the previous mystique about the event was way better than these flashbacks with pretty much just clashes yet again, and not much loredumps either except for Xebec and Teach being descendants of Davy Jones.
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This, completely. Garp, and every other Marine is extremely mid.

That said, him having set Dragon free is an interesting twist— and probably the best thing he did for the entire world in the entire series.

With that said... I hate that I feel the entire flashback arc has been extremely underbaked. So much potential, so many epic personalities to work with here, and I strangely feel like I care about/like these people— less? yes less— than when we started the flashback.
 
it did feel really underbaked. There just wasn't enough space for the God Valley incident. I think it should've cut out the incident itself and just skipped to Harald hearing of Rock's death, and for the incident to be covered at a later point in greater detail

It was also very confusing. This was the first event in One Piece were I felt like I need to reread it at some point just to get some things. I see a lot of people misremembering and misrepresenting parts of the incident, most likely because it's just written overpacked and hard to follow

We never heard why Shakky started her bar and the whole Kaido/Big Mom stuff was really weird. What is the debt that Kaido owes to Big Mom? He stole the fruit from her
 
Coronis said:
Garp’s great (feels like people still don’t get him) and I’ve enjoyed the flashback. Neener neener I don’t care what the haters think. You can all get Galaxy Impacted.
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I think the reason most (including myself) Garp haters see him as mid is that in a series all about *strong wills*, Garp doesn't really have any strong convictions. His form of justice, "My Justice," being charming but arbitrary.

Or because he's so willing to
1) be the dog of the state
2) aim his greatest passion and effort at the least important kinds of targets (chasing Roger > all else is not justice, it's just fight addiction)
3) leave corruption and injustice alone even as he states it plainly (Garp says "Tenryuubito are trash", Fujitora drops a meteor on Marie Joias at the first sliver of plausible deniability)

--"Ore no Seigi" (my justice) becomes really uncompelling, and unimpressive.

Compared to a character that has a very similar "justice," Rurouni Kenshin's Kenshin Himura— who has the same "protect those in front of me" posture, but couldn't be more different from Garp in mental. Kenshin is constantly grappling and over-thinking, Garp never wavers or hesitates(*ASTERISK); holds clarity+action regardless of consideration as a virtue.

Comparing them though, at least Kenshin has the self-awareness to understand that his justice is flawed and his internal demons and internal grappling with his flaws and weaknesses makes him more human; and compelling. His self-awareness makes him act deferential to characters like Okubo Toshimichi genuinely committed to genuine transformation and progress.
(though real world Okubo--not manga Okubo-- was REALLY authoritarian in real life, and it would have been much much much MUCH better if Kido Takayoshi had greater grip on the helm+Shinsaku/Ryoma hadn't died— the Choshu leaders & Tosa Ronin were much more progressive than Satsuma's Okubo and Saigo)

Garp constantly strutting and acting like he's right.

But I'll say that his best moments are in deference to characters he senses have genuine moral vision and internal self-strength to lead towards change (sacrificing himself to save Koby from blackbeard, who he saw defy Akainu at Marine Forde; taking it upon himself to free Dragon, and affirming the importance of Dragon's Justice for the world).

Probably though, the biggest distinction here is that at the apex of his strength, Kenshin TRIED to (and actually DID) use his power and his personal justice to challenge the system itself, and transform it. Sure, Okubo's Meiji Japan eventually evolved into a terrible fascist state (after bringing in a bunch of German consultants on industrialization...), but the Meiji Revolution itself that Kenshin sided with was about eliminating the caste system, overthrowing the absolute authority of the Shogun, and uniting disparate fiefdoms into a unified Japan— all genuinely revolutionary goals.
^With that as background, Kenshin's retirement and retreat into forgetting the systemic, focusing on the local/individualistic, and holding his imperfect justice along with saddled trauma is— well, it's earned.

At the peak of his strength, Garp sipped drinks pool-side between bouts of... chasing Roger around?

Now I get that Moral clarity isn't supposed to be the core of Garp's character, but without a passion for Justice his *conviction* feels mid, because Justice is supposed to be the whole thing Marines care about.

Garp's most meaningful role in the story is to be a COACH— all of his strongest, most noblest acts are as mentor. To Aokiji and Koby he teaches "don't hesitate." To Luffy and Ace (the "D" boys for whom not hesitating is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd nature) he teaches the importance of strength.

To Dragon we could say he's taught— "You're not wrong. The world is shit, and if you want to change it— you're a better man than me."

^So that's the crux. Garp is a compelling coach, but only a coach of POWER (so only compelling to power thirsters), and without actually accomplishing anything really meaningful, that "coach" role feels a lot more hollow. Reyleigh is a more compelling coach because he actually went to Laughtale.

The argument ins't that Garp is a bad character— there are almost no bad/non-compelling characters in One Piece. That said, compared to:
-Koby, who's seen the corruption of the system and is still "looking for his own justice" even meekly
-Fujitora, who despite being blind is the MOST clear-eyed marine in commitment to "Justice for the people", and revolution from within
-Dragon, who is the character representing "True Justice," a revolution of, by, and for the people

Garp is mid. The argument is not that Garp is bad, or not charming, or uninteresting— just that he's extremely mid.
 
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Chou Toshio said:
I think the reason most (including myself) Garp haters see him as mid is that in a series all about *strong wills*, Garp doesn't really have any strong convictions. His form of justice, "My Justice," being charming but arbitrary.

Or because he's so willing to
1) be the dog of the state
2) aim his greatest passion and effort at the least important kinds of targets (chasing Roger > all else is not justice, it's just fight addiction)
3) leave corruption and injustice alone even as he states it plainly (Garp says "Tenryuubito are trash", Fujitora drops a meteor on Marie Joias at the first sliver of plausible deniability)

--"Ore no Seigi" (my justice) becomes really uncompelling, and unimpressive.

Compared to a character that has a very similar "justice," Rurouni Kenshin's Kenshin Himura— who has the same "protect those in front of me" posture, but couldn't be more different from Garp in mental. Kenshin is constantly grappling and over-thinking, Garp never wavers or hesitates(*ASTERISK); holds clarity+action regardless of consideration as a virtue.

Comparing them though, at least Kenshin has the self-awareness to understand that his justice is flawed and his internal demons and internal grappling with his flaws and weaknesses makes him more human; and compelling. Probably though, the biggest distinction here is that at the apex of his strength, Kenshin TRIED to (and actually DID) use his power and his personaly justice to challenge the system itself, and transform it. Sure, Okubo's Meiji Japan eventually evolved into a terrible fascist state (after bringing in a bunch of German consultants on industrialization...), but the Meiji Revolution itself that Kenshin sided with was about eliminating the caste system, overthrowing the absolute authority of the Shogun, and uniting disparate fiefdoms into a unified Japan— all genuinely revolutionary goals.
^With that as background, Kenshin's retirement and retreat into forgetting the systemic, focusing on the local/individualistic, and holding his imperfect justice along with saddled trauma is— well, it's earned.

At the peak of his strength, Garp sipped drinks pool-side between bouts of... chasing Roger around?

Now I get that Moral clarity isn't supposed to be the core of Garp's character, but without a passion for Justice his *conviction* feels mid, because Justice is supposed to be the whole thing Marines care about.

Garp's most meaningful role in the story is to be a COACH— all of his strongest, most noblest acts are as mentor. To Aokiji and Koby he teaches "don't hesitate." To Luffy and Ace (the "D" boys for whom not hesitating is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd nature) he teaches the importance of strength.

To Dragon we could say he's taught— "You're not wrong. The world is shit, and if you want to change it— you're a better man than me."

^So that's the crux. Garp is a compelling coach, but only a coach of POWER (so only compelling to power thirsters), and without actually accomplishing anything really meaningful, that "coach" role feels a lot more hollow. Reyleigh is a more compelling coach because he actually went to Laughtale.

The argument ins't that Garp is a bad character— there are almost no bad/non-compelling characters in One Piece. That said, compared to:
-Koby, who's seen the corruption of the system and is still "looking for his own justice" even meekly
-Fujitora, who despite being blind is the MOST clear-eyed marine in commitment to "Justice for the people", and revolution from within
-Dragon, who is the character representing "True Justice," a revolution of, by, and for the people

Garp is mid. The argument is not that Garp is bad, or not charming, or uninteresting— just that he's extremely mid.
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At least to the bolded I’ll answer - he was doing that specifically because he refused to go and guard the Celestial Dragons on their “holiday”, before knowing exactly what it was.

For all his flaws, the crux of his character and the reason he joins the Marines is to protect the everyday average citizen of the world. For all the flaws in the WG, the Marines do this to a large extent.

Garp’s seen the power of Imu/Gorosei, and understood that he alone wouldn’t be able to necessarily win against them, and be able to make a meaningful change. You can look at someone like Dragon and yes, the revolutionaries have done very well, but how many innocent people have suffered due to their rebellions and liberations? Garp’s just looking out for the average person, and the average Marine, in the best possible way. He does have power of course, but not enough to singlehandedly change the course of the world. Its also a great allegory to certain real world situations and feels very relatable.

The character I’m most disappointed in is probably Smoker, as initially it seemed that he would be the Garp to Luffy’s Roger, as his moral compass and sense of justice seems almost identical to Garp, and he’s been semi-willing to work with Luffy for the greater good twice now. Sadly even Koby’s passed him now and atm seems destined to fade into obscurity.

Anyway yeah maybe I identify with Garp a bit more because I find his motives and actions more relatable in a real world sense. Trying to do as much good as he can manage in a corrupt system/world.
 
Coronis said:
At least to the bolded I’ll answer - he was doing that specifically because he refused to go and guard the Celestial Dragons on their “holiday”, before knowing exactly what it was.

For all his flaws, the crux of his character and the reason he joins the Marines is to protect the everyday average citizen of the world. For all the flaws in the WG, the Marines do this to a large extent.

Garp’s seen the power of Imu/Gorosei, and understood that he alone wouldn’t be able to necessarily win against them, and be able to make a meaningful change. You can look at someone like Dragon and yes, the revolutionaries have done very well, but how many innocent people have suffered due to their rebellions and liberations? Garp’s just looking out for the average person, and the average Marine, in the best possible way. He does have power of course, but not enough to singlehandedly change the course of the world. Its also a great allegory to certain real world situations and feels very relatable.

The character I’m most disappointed in is probably Smoker, as initially it seemed that he would be the Garp to Luffy’s Roger, as his moral compass and sense of justice seems almost identical to Garp, and he’s been semi-willing to work with Luffy for the greater good twice now. Sadly even Koby’s passed him now and atm seems destined to fade into obscurity.

Anyway yeah maybe I identify with Garp a bit more because I find his motives and actions more relatable in a real world sense. Trying to do as much good as he can manage in a corrupt system/world.
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Yeah that's fair, and there are real Garps out there— those are the things I like about Garp as well. Though I think he's gravely miscalculating how successful the WG actually is at protecting the average citizen; if anything world of OP shows Whitebeard and Revolutionary Army doing it better.

I also just find the Garps of the world less compelling than the Fujitoras. I prefer Fujitora over Koby as well. Bernie > Warren

Going to be honest and say I completely forgot about Smoker as a character. It's a good point that in a generation of Marines there are none that wake up and be central to the modern story as Garp should supposedly be to Roger's era (though this flashback makes both of them look much much less impressive unfortunately...)

Maybe there shouldn't have been a Fujitora and a Koby— there should have just been Koby, and his evolution into a character of Fujitora's will and power and moral clarity. Him being the marine that Garp sacrificed himself to protect would make them all more compelling.


edit: Or maybe, just in shaping this story— Oda wants the Marines to all be weaker, less compelling, less credible characters. Maybe his calculation is that as the system implodes, creatures of that system need to appear less, and less, and less credible. The story is about Freedom and Justice, but with Freedom definitely being the lead star of the story— and the system's toppling as more deserved. People like the Fujitoras and Garps of the world— but there's a good chance Oda likes Dragon a LOT more.
 
bro when is this flashback ending :eeveehide:

I feel even stronger that the entire Rocks aspect of the flashback should've never come up here. Rocks should've been introduced exclusively through Harald's view, a later flashback should've fleshed out Rocks and the God Valley incident. This flashback is waaay too long and waaaay past it's climax, but it just doesn't end

I really don't know how to feel about Elbaf. I really loved the arc before the flashback and now I think we've reached the zenith of OP having awful storytelling at parts, especially after the timeskip. I'd say this flashback, Wano's epilogue, some parts of Fishman Island and Dressroa and Punk Hazard as a whole are the worst the story has to offer. I hope Oda takes a few weeks off for the Elbaf climax

Also I kinda hope that Imu isn't just a bad guy. It'd undermine a lot of the story if everything bad in the world came from some dude that just decided to do bad shit. I'd prefer if Imu wasn't a person, but some kind of collective or hive mind. They do address themselves in third person and don't have a human appearance. That would make them a lot more interesting
 
Fishman Island is one of my favorite arcs, but it definitely drags. It's funny because for some of these the flashbacks are the best parts and others... no...

Fishman Island's only REALLY good part is the whole story around Fisher Tiger. THAT flashback made Tiger even MORE of a legend— going from mystery legend to person we personally knew, made him even more compelling, more powerful, his weakness even more of a chad... and all we need after that is Luffy beating the shit out of Hody, and Jinbe+Luffy overcoming hatred with Jinbe giving Luffy his blood to seal the deal. Truly incredible arc.

Dressrosa— honestly I could have done without EVERYTHING except Doffy on screen. I've literally forgotten everything there except when Doffy was on screen— his back story, his hatred, and his fighting with Luffy, are pretty much the only things we need from that arc. I like Fujitora, but as noted above did we really need an already perfected version of what Coby should aspire to be to just materialize as an admiral? Here too, the flashbacks (like Doffy's Haki awakening) arguably best part of the arc.

Wano's flashback is... somehow I just don't find Oden all that compelling or interesting ironically... Oda wrote a Samurai story with OP mechanics and Momotaro flavoring, but as a Samurai story... and maybe even worse for himself, by envoking "Kaikoku" (the opening of the country) he inherently oriented the main conflict of the story (Kaikoku vs. Sakoku closing the country) within the Bakufu/Revolutionary framing... but there's no real revolution...
One Piece is a story all about willpower, but Oden's ideology/kokorozashi seems so shallow and uncompelling compared to the actual Samurai of the revolution... Oden really is a fool compared to a figure like Sakamoto Ryoma, or Takasugi Shinsaku, or even Katsu Kaishu... and heck, even compared to fictional Samurai like Kenshin.
Maybe if Oden's primary enemy had not been Kaido himself, but an old, aging establishment of Wano's leadership that was being captured by Kaido (or the WG is honestly a better antagonist than Kaido to fill in for the Western Powers in a Meiji Revolution adjacent story), and the radical/revolutionary Samurai failed to overthrow the establishment and Wano became even more subservient and closed off from the rest of the world... Oden fails, but the radicals are still correct... and Luffy could come in later as a unifying force (much like how real life Ryoma was, uniting Choshu, Satsuma, and the radicals in Tosa) to re-ignite the revolution.

There are better themes for reactionary outcomes that Oda could have used instead of starving people or polluting the land that are actually relevant to the historical context too. Like the need to abandon a caste system/eliminate Samurai privilege, or need to bring disparate Han (clans) together as a unified Wano that could stand up against the WG. Especially caste system elimination would be awesome and timely, as the self-realization of the need to abandon Samurai privilege, the evils of a caste system, would rhyme and have story repercussions with the existence of the Tenryuubito.

Ultimately, the underscoring of how staying a Sakoku leaves the people blind, stupid, and unable to create the solidarity & defense for self-determination is what NEEDS to be hammered and hammered, especially because how that theme strengthens both fishman island and Elbaf... but Oda really didn't do enough with it.

Regarding Imu... I think that Imu's job (besides being defeated) needs to be to show that he's not special; insofar that ANYONE who sits upon the throne WILL be ruthless, evil, and a singular king is not something any world should tolerate— whether you are compelled by freedom OR justice.
 
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Chou Toshio said:
Maybe if Oden's primary enemy had not been Kaido himself, but an old, aging establishment of Wano's leadership that was being captured by Kaido (or the WG is honestly a better antagonist than Kaido to fill in for the Western Powers in a Meiji Revolution adjacent story), and the radical/revolutionary Samurai failed to overthrow the establishment and Wano became even more subservient and closed off from the rest of the world... Oden fails, but the radicals are still correct... and Luffy could come in later as a unifying force (much like how real life Ryoma was, uniting Choshu, Satsuma, and the radicals in Tosa) to re-ignite the revolution.
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that is actually a really good idea. Would've been cool if Orochi was replaced by that

with Oden, I didn't see it as a traditional samurai story due to the parallels with Herakles. It read more like a greek hero myth than a samurai story to me therefore. I loved that about it, it felt like the most concise and thematically strong flashback and it revealed sooo much. It was peak to me honestly. In general, I actually really loved Wano. Act 3 was massively overloaded, the dinosaur guys needed to be in act 1 and 2 so act 3 could've focused on the all stars and the emperors, and the epilogue was absolutely awful with Kinemon surviving, but it was so hype week by week

Chou Toshio said:
Regarding Imu... I think that Imu's job (besides being defeated) needs to be to show that he's not special; insofar that ANYONE who sits upon the throne WILL be ruthless, evil, and a singular king is not something any world should tolerate— whether you are compelled by freedom OR justice.
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the first oppressive "ruler" in One Piece was Axe Hand Morgan. Just a random guy with a very vague form of authority, and he was still a tyrant. I think that's already covered pretty well overall, it's been shown over and over that authority attracts corrupt people throughout OP
 
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