Resource ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

[FJ2K]

When did the Zapdos stonks go down???
The hidden power your Zapdos chooses is like huge
There should be more set variety in samples
I mostly see SpDef Rest/Roar or these weird ass Modest spreads
If your Zapdos isn't bulky, just max out the speed bruh. 252 EVs of fluff barely matters after chip

I'll take Mence or Pert above Zap, but Claydol? Really guys?
The same Claydol that comes in on every single Tbolt?
Press hidden power twice to crack the porcelain

RoarZap (with hidden power) makes this even easier? PhysDef is a stellar switch into Metagross, SpDef can actually tank a +1 ice beam from you know who and make it go away.

Also, its kind of irking me that no one is slapping 32-40 EVs on Speed for bulky variants to outpace Ttar!
Yes, of course I can do it myself but the newer players should get some convenience from our knowledge.


& can we get my man Reginaldrock on a sample tho??!!

Zapdos is still great, but it has issues on Offense. For the following points, I am working on the assumption that Zapdos does not have Rest on its set as its not something you will see typically on Offense builds.

Annoying Mons for Zap


- Zapdos can kill momentum by blanking on Claydol and Blissey entries. Dol can then spin fairly freely and Blissey can click Status freely. Zapdos can and does run Status of its own often, but in an offense MU, the Dol player may often find themselves happily eating a Toxic or Hidden Power to get Spikes off the field. Dol can run Refresh / Rest and Blissey can run Aromatherapy/ Heal Bell , which is quite painful for Zapdos if it hopes to break down Dol through Status.


- Mons like DefBi and SpDef Rachi can eat up what Zapdos has to dish out, and threaten to Leech or spread Status respectively. Zapdos can Status Jirachi with TWave to help break it , by interrupting its Wish+Protect combo through Paralysis. However this does not change the face to face interactions these Mons have with Zapdos. Substitute Zapdos can be very effective against these Mons, so if your team has pain with Defensive Pixies, this is something you could consider.


- Snorlax can get fairly comfortable entry on Zapdos since it can eat Thunderbolts and is immune to Toxic. Then depending on its set, it can throw out Body Slams to spread paralysis or Focus Punch to dent the opposing Steel types coming in / turn Tyranitar into pudding. Curse sets also can be scary for Offense teams. Overall I'd consider this an inconvenience though as Lax can gain entry in similar fashion for quite a lot of Mons in the tier.


-Jolteon isn't necessarily a major issue for Zapdos if Zapdos has Status, but in an Offense vs Offense mu, finding yourself being hesitant to click Thunderbolt fearing a Jolteon entry can be difficult. Click Thunderbolt as it enters, restoring any health it lost to Spikes before being forced out fearing Thunder Wave can hurt momentum bad, as you switch from playing proactively to reactive. If your team is fine to trade Status on Jolt for status on Zapdos, then Jolt is a lot less scary. So I would consider Jolteon an inconvenience in the grand scale of things.


- Opposing SpDef Rest Zapdos can be a serious pain for Offensive Zapdos.
252 SpA 30 IVs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Zapdos: 119-140 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
In a face to face interaction, SpDef Zap can easily eat Thunderbolt and return a Thunderbolt of its own or inflict Status. SpDef Zap will also eat any Status Offensive Zapdos has to throw its way as it can Rest it off, while burning 2 PP of the Status move due to Pressure. It's important to note that SpDef Zap can be broken by OffZap, through critting or through Paralysis.


- Registeel can eat any attack Zapdos has and doesn't care to be hit with Status. The combination of Seismic Toss + Counter being common on Registeel also nullifies the ZapDug trap unless Registeel has already been chipped considerably in advance.


- Without Hidden Power Grass, Refresh Swampert can become a roadblock for Zapdos.

Progress using Roar

Want to mention that with Zapdos' access to Roar, it still has potential to make plays against most of the switch ins the opponent has, as none of the switch ins will appreciate taking Spikes damage. It still takes prediction and positioning to make progress with Roar + Spikes .However not all Zapdos sets run Roar and a lot of Zapdos teams don't have Spikes.


So now that I've given a brief overview of Mons that can be annoying for Offensive Zapdos, I'll go over one of its main sets in this post.

Substitute Baton Pass Zapdos.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
(example set, Nature can be Timid too, can run Hidden Power Ice)

The following section will be a breakdown of what's wrong with Special Offense ( where Substitute Zapdos is primarily seen)

Poster boy of Special Offense. Zapdos can Substitute up on a lot of Mons as it threatens to dish out Status or to deal serious damage. It can then proceed to attack or BP into Dugtrio to trap an opposing Mon. The combination of Substituting then Baton Passing into Dugtrio (ZapDug) is great for trapping many of Zapdos' adversaries. Jirachi , Celebi, Blissey (if SpDef Beat Up Dugtrio is being run; Regular Dug can potentially trap Blissey if its Ice Beamless (Mono bliss)), Tyranitar and Registeel ( if chipped.) Offensively the synergy is fantastic.

So what's the problem?

This Zapdos set is primarily run on Special Offense teams, which have difficulty balancing offensive output and defensive stability. Special Offense teams seek to trap and eliminate the opposing Special Wall as soon as possible to allow for the team's special attackers to wreak havoc. Disclaimer, I am personally not a fan of Special Offense heh.

To begin with , we'll look at trapping Blissey. In order to trap Blissey, SpecOff teams will run Specially Defensive Dugtrio with Beat Up. The special defense investment allows Dugtrio to eat an Ice Beam from Blissey. Investment determines how many Spikes are needed on Dug's side for Blissey to kill. Most commonly, Dugtrio can live with 1 spike up on its side.

Dugtrio's Sacrifices

This investment and moveset does not come without cost.
- Depending on how Bulky you go, you lose a significant amount of Speed. Dugtrio loses firepower and speed, and thus may not be able to trap Raikou (who can be a massive threat vs SpecOff).
- May need significantly more chip on Celebi, Jirachi, Tyranitar , Metagross, and Registeel to eliminate them.
- A move needs to be dropped on Dugtrio's moveset to make space for Beat Up. Rock Slide is usually dropped, meaning Dugtrio has no coverage to hit Flying types.
- Depending on Speed stat chosen, SpDef can be outsped by +1 Dragon Dance Tyranitar. (dire lol)

The Race


Now to address the major issue. SpecOff is a widely recognised archetype. ZapDug teams facing into Spikes Blissey teams are racing against the clock to get their trap off. Players using Spike teams will know to get Spikes up as soon as possible to shut down ZapDug traps. This dynamic is skewed fairly strongly in the favour of the Spikes player in my opinion. Skarmory has to get in on anything that isn't Zapdos (Swampert, Jirachi, Celebi, Suicune,etc) as soon as possible and get 2 Spikes up. This isn't exceedingly difficult to do as the Spikes player. Eg: If Skarmory is in on Swampert, it can Spike up as the SpecOff player swaps into Zapdos. Skarmory can then Spike up again in front of Zapdos , willing to take its chance on living a roll / predict that the Zapdos player will Substitute. The SpecOff player has to make a prediction here , to guess if the Spikes player will Spike or Switch. This sequence, that will happen frequently in the first 10 turns of the game, can decide the game for the SpecOff player. The sequence isn't as impactful to the Spikes player side either. If the Spikes player stays in and gets OHKOd by Zapdos, the game is still entirely playable.

The SpecOff player also needs to avoid getting more than 1 Mon inflicted with Status/killed prior to the trap as well. Beat Up uses the Base Attack Stat of each Mon in the SpecOff player's team to calculate its damage. However if a Mon is inflicted with Status or Dead, the Mons will not be included in the damage. So the Specoff player needs to avoid letting Mons die or get inflicted with Status to enable Beat Up to function as intended.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that even if the Special Offense player pulls all this off successfully and gets a sufficiently healthy Dugtrio in front of Blissey, there's still a ~16% chance they still lose the game there and then. If Blissey lands a critical hit or Freezes Dugtrio, the Special Offense team is left in a dire situation for the remaining game.

So on two fronts, the SpecOff player is put on a timer from turn 1 , where they need to get nearly every turn right to maintain momentum and trap the opposing Special wall.

Trying to solve the Spikes dilemma


To address the Spikes issue, I've seen players dropped Swampert, opting to use Vaporeon and OffCune to give the team a bulky Water that can break Skarm before it can get 2 Spikes up. However, this is the defensive stability issue I mentioned in the beginning. In order to maintain Offensive pressure, massive Defensive holes have been created.


Without Swampert, DD Tyranitar , DD Salamence, Agility Metagross, Sub CM Raikou and Aerodactyl are all very threatening Mons. With Zapdos not carrying Status or Phasing on these teams generally, it can end up becoming a setup opportunity for these Mons. Bulky DD Tyranitar can tank hits from nearly everything and get to +2 and wipe the board . SpDef DD Mence can set up on a lot of the Mons too, and wipe similarly. Raikou can Substitute or Calm Mind right in front of Zapdos, and proceed to clean house. Aerodactyl is free to reign terror from above , since the Rock resist is likely going to be a Jirachi or Metagross, all it takes is one Earthquake prediction to break open the team for Rock Slide spam. Aerodactyl's teammates can also get chip for Aerodactyl, allowing it to click Rock Slide freely , since the chip in combination with Spikes + Rock Slide will prevent Rachi / Metagross from being a reliable answer.


ADV Unc Hclat has suggested running Claydol along with Zapdos + Dugtrio to mitigate the Spikes issue whilst not creating huge defensive holes in the team (this suggestion was not specific to Special Offense). Claydol gives the team an additional Rock Resist to fight Tyranitar and Aerodactyl; a Ground type that can check Raikou, Zapdos, Jirachi and Jolteon; and an Explosion user that can force out/ chip Snorlax for teammates to kill. I believe this is a move in the right direction, however Claydol's firepower is lacklustre for such an Offensive team. Tyros has commented a few times that he's not a fan of using Dol on Special Offense due to the lack of firepower as well. Maybe one of the bright minds reading this can figure out how to solve Special Offense!?

With all the points described above, I believe that SpecOff is an unforgiving playstyle. Special Offense is legit, but from turn 1 it feels like many different pressing issues are already knocking on the door.

Back to Zapdos.

The primary archetype where this Zapdos set is seen is flawed. Despite the fantastic offensive synergy Zapdos and its set have with Dugtrio, the tier doesn't have Mons that can fill out the rest of the team without having to compromise offensively or defensively. Zapdos and its set are part of the issue too.

Zapdos loses a quarter of its health each time it Subs, diminishing its ability to act as a check to Mons it would usually be expected to check , like CM Suicune. Also having no Status or Phasing means it becomes a setup opportunity for a variety of Mons ( TTar, Salamence, Metagross, Jirachi and Celebi ( depending on set and investment), Raikou, CM Blissey, etc).

TLDR:
SpecOff is mid. Substitute Baton Pass Zapdos has fantastic offensive synergy with Dugtrio, enabling a wide variety of Special Offense teams. However these teams are riddled with Offensive/ Defensive issues, which Zapdos contributes to.


Following media from Game 2 of ADV Revival 3 Grandfinals between Prinz and Christos.

That concludes this post. I'll do a writeup on Zapdos on Spikeless MixOff and Spikes Offense sometime in the future , writing ts takes a lot of time heh..

 

[vapicuno]

Why is nobody talking about this zap set or its BP>Tox variant?

 

[Mom's Dumptruck]

Drew the top 15 (because i didnt plan it well and ran out of space lel)

this was fun but i definitely under-estimated how long it would take

did it w my mouse and my arm is killin me! but lineart is easier w mouse than it is w stylus for me

ty Dinner!! for the tier list visual, that was my reference

EDIT: dude i forgot swampert LMAO

sick! love the exaggerated heads and expressions on some of them. salamence is my favorite.

 

[Just_Leonardo]

Also some special offense teams notably the famous Italian offense was nerfed by the loss of agil pass

https://pokepast.es/84bc082ef26ac6c2

Nah don't worry dad, me and BluesEnergy00 will be playing it anyways because sub Zap shall bring us to the promised land.

 

[mielke]

can we get my man Reginaldrock on a sample tho??!!

No

 

[Shitrock enjoyer]

No

ADD regirock slop to sample team.

 

[mielke]

ADD regirock slop to sample team.

50 bucks on my pix and ill do it

 

[greenapricotttss]

C'mon guys, Reginald knows his place
Gimme 5 booms & a Suicune

 

[Shitrock enjoyer]

RE: The Zapdos situation




Zapdos is kinda at a weird spot. When looking at Zapdos, I often see it from its defensive standpoint, where its ability as Pivot that is able to defensively guard vs offwaters, mixed attackers and Metagross makes it valuable, the problem is the tier is hostile to it in terms of how it makes Progress. Its not strong enough vs offense or fat wout Spikes to really enhance it, its also awnkard as hell defensively still because any sort of chip makes it significantly worse. In that sense its a frail piece of glass, all of this combined with the rise of Spikeless Offenses that drop Zapdos often and the downward spiral that ZapDug has been going in recent years make Zap's image worse, mainly because Zap's place on Spikeless is practically gone and there are issues for Zap on Spikes too



THE "TOO FLEXIBLE" PROBLEM:



Zap has this weird quirk where it does everything but the fact it does everything means that it doesnt do anything specific. Zap's toolkit also isnt great at enabling specific roles as the whole appeal of Zapdos is its flexibility as pivot. Such thing however creates a lot of rigidity in practice, especially in how you play stuff like BP Zap on Spikeless, it also lacks progress tools that are able to progress vs everything while being a mon whose whole point is the flexibility and ability to do so many things in 1. Agipass somewhat fixed the issue but people were too creatively bankrupt to try doing stuff with it, leading to low usage which just led to its significant theoretical value not being revealed. Passing speed could accomplish something in all MUs, vs Fat it denies Dug RK, vs Offense it can sweep Classico and other Aero offenses. Sub Pass theoretically can do the same but again the whole appeal of Zap comes from a defensive standpoint (especially Spikeless) and losing 25% HP in Sand means you cant check a lot of stuff which just isnt worth it, not only that but the fact its Sub doesnt have 101 HP makes it significantly worse vs stuff like Registeel and Blissey, especially Registeel which is the most perfect t1 switchin to all of Zap's tools (something that wasnt thought to exist outside of Regice) which makes SubPass worse


To exemplify this, take Double Status Zap on Spikeless. Sure, its able to do quite a bit vs Registeel-less / Raikou-less offense, able to check many threats with Twave and having strong threat level due to a strong Tbolt but there are two things, one is that Toxic progresses too slowly (or not at all) vs Fat stuff, the other is that Raikou and Registeel do exist and are actual threats (boomers will despise this claim, but its factually true) and Zapdos is rarely that much of a threat for Offense anymore. Usually what makes Zapdos "broken" vs Offense are the support mons, which is where Spikes, Gengar and Aerodactyl come in the picture. Zap doesnt have the progress in every MU tool and doesnt have a overwhelmingly positive MU vs either side of the spectrum unless its paired with Spikes and ideally Aerodactyl to shore up defensively and make Zapdos way more dangerous offensively as Aero takes advantage of the more passive answers (with exception of Registeel) and Zap switches into various Aero checks, not to mention the fact Zap isnt a conventional "fast revenge kill" mon like MixMence and the Firebirds and is especially not great vs CMers (Cele Rachi Kou) therefore appreciating Aero even further. It is clear then how much Zap actually wants Spikes and that Spikeless Zapdos is often forcing defensive stability to fool yourself that you are "safe" from a defensive standpoint. It doesnt provide enough offensive value by itself to justify Spikeless, just like Jolteon for example. Is it doable? Yes obviously. It is Zapdos and it is the most flexible mon in ADV. Is it rigid/feels off? Also yes. Is it unoptimal? Probably. This all comes to show that Zap as a mon is the quintenssial "filler" or something that you use because its "good enough" for your team when it comes to Spikeless.




WHAT ABOUT SPIKES?




Spikes Zap is a different story. This is where ranking the mon super high is justifiable, however the true draw of Zap is once again how it supposedly fits on "every archetype". FJ2k's and Zpanther's posts have highlighted certain reasons that Spikeless Zap just isnt that optimal to begin with. As for Spikes, Zap does fit everywhere in the spectrum again in theory but in reality, its at its peak on a Zap/Skarm/Pert/Tar/Aero+1 structure where the +1 is either Gar or Meta/Rachi. Zap Mence on Spikes is very hard to do and is often defensively flimsy as usually means Zap as the only special check (workable but not ideal wout Aero) and Zap Firebird is either Stallish (valid actually, but incredibely hard to shore up vs physical attackers) or brings Aero for the extra potency anyway. Zap+Bliss is a cool case, its incredibely great especially due to redundancy and allowing Bliss to play more freely but oftentimes Zap+Tar+Bliss teams lack good MUs vs physical attackers and are often ass vs most Spikeless Offenses or Spikes Aero Zap (ironic isnt it) and usually lack Spin too (unless Forre, which makes the Offense problems worse), once again Aero makes those aspects infinitely more playable, which is why Zap/Skarm or Forre/Pert/Bliss/Ttar/Aero is a classic. However, without Aero, Zap struggles to fit very well on midrange Spikes teams (Bliss stuff, etc) due to its problems. It is a GOAT on Spikes Offense but once again usually with Aero (most consistent). Zap+Cele and Zap+Jolt can work very well wout Aero but their best versions have Aero in them. Spikes Stall with Zap is great at fishing but it makes the Rock Spam and Snorlax weakness much greater so usually you don't want to either. Props to Superman however where Rest Zapdos is a machine and absolutely indispensible, using either SpD Wish Jira or Bliss alongside it and Flygon. Zap is practically mandatory alongside Defensive Flygon and fixes a LOT of issues with those builds. Superman is the one style where Zap is truly essential. The rest (midrange TarBliss Spikes, Bliss sandless spikes, Spikes Offense) all can do fine wout it, especially if Zap isnt paired with Aero. When looking at the best Zap teams, usually Aero is there. Just look at Classico, the arguable best modern ADV team has Zapdos paired with Aerodactyl.





WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?




This means that Zapdos isnt the end all be all of fitting every archetype like everyone praised it to be. Its actually quite limited if you want the best results possible, as argued here. Spikeless Zap has been a far cry and while Spikes Zap is excellent, the best Zap Spikes all follow a pattern: Aero. One can argue that its a sign of creative bankrupcy again, where players do not mess with stuff as much as they should. However, it seems to me that these trends have been constructed little by little and that a minor Zap downfall was always apparent. This isnt to say that Zap is so much worse, thats not true at all. The thing is that Zap is rightfully not at the top5 because it simply isnt on the same level as Bliss, Skarm, Tar, Pert and Meta (not my top5 but what I imagine would be the top5 if we took all top player opinions in account). Zap has a lot more limitations than it meets the eye at first since you are drawn to the super flexible catch all pivot thats also incredible offensively but if you think deeply about both Theory and Practice, you realize Zapdos is surprisingly rigid for how flexible it is at its roles.




See ya. Heh.

 

[FJ2K]

Hello, going to wrap up this post - My post on Zapdos and Special Offense.
Initially, my plan was to write up a post going into detail about Spikeless Offense's strengths and weaknesses. Had a good bit typed out..

However as you can see in the post above , Shitrock Enjoyer has given a great explanation on why Offensive Spikeless Zapdos feels lacklustre in this meta. The idea of Zapdos being a jack of all trades but master of none captures my view perfectly.

So naturally, I am going to steal his post and fix the formatting and grammar. I will provide brief analysis on Spikeless Offense archetypes after, before finally concluding why Spikeless Offense Zapdos isn't as great in the current metagame.

Proof that I'm true to this, not new to this . (Not rating Spikeless Zap Offense)

RE: The Zapdos situation



Zapdos is in a weird spot. When looking at Zapdos, I often see it from its defensive position, a pivot whose ability to defensively guard vs offensive Waters, mixed attackers and Metagross makes it valuable. The problem is the tier is hostile to Zapdos in terms of how it makes progress. It's not strong enough vs Offense or Fat without Spikes to really enhance it, it's also awkward defensively because any sort of chip makes it significantly worse. From this perspective, it's a frail piece of glass. All of this combined ,with the rise of Spikeless Offenses that drop Zapdos often and the downward spiral that ZapDug has been going in recent years, make Zap's image worse, mainly because Zap's place on Spikeless is practically gone and there are issues for Zap on Spikes too.

THE "TOO FLEXIBLE" PROBLEM:

Zap has this weird quirk where it does everything but the fact it does everything means that it doesn't do anything specific. Zap's toolkit also isnt great at enabling specific roles as the whole appeal of Zapdos is its flexibility as a pivot. This compression however creates a lot of rigidity in practice, especially in how you play sets like BP Zap on Spikeless. It also lacks progress tools that are able to progress vs everything while being a Mon whose whole purpose is the flexibility and ability to do so many things in 1 slot .

Agility Pass somewhat fixed the issue but people were too creatively bankrupt to try doing stuff with it, leading to low usage which led to its significant theoretical value not being revealed. Passing speed could accomplish something in all matchups; vs Fat it denies Dug RK ; vs Offense it can sweep Classico and other Aero offenses.

Sub Pass theoretically can do the same but the whole appeal of Zap comes from a defensive standpoint (especially Spikeless) and losing 25% HP in Sand means you can't check a lot of stuff which just isn't worth it. Not only that but the fact its Sub doesn't have 101 HP makes it significantly worse vs stuff like Registeel and Blissey; especially Registeel which is the most perfect t1 switch in to all of Zap's tools (something that wasn't thought to exist outside of Regice) which makes SubPass worse.


To exemplify this, take Double Status Zap on Spikeless. It's able to do quite a bit vs Registeel-less / Raikou-less offense, able to check many threats with Thunder Wave and remains a threat due to its strong Thunderbolt. But there are two things:
- Toxic progresses too slowly (or not at all) vs Fat stuff
- Raikou and Registeel exist and are actual threats (boomers will despise this claim, but its factually true) and Zapdos is rarely that much of a threat for Offense anymore.


Usually what makes Zapdos "broken" vs Offense are the support mons, which is where Spikes, Gengar and Aerodactyl come into the picture. Zap doesn't have a progress tool in every MU and doesn't have a overwhelmingly positive MU vs either side of the spectrum. That is unless it's paired with Spikes and ideally Aerodactyl, to shore up defensively and make Zapdos way more dangerous offensively. Aero takes advantage of the more passive answers (with exception of Registeel) and Zap switches into various Aero checks. Not to mention the fact Zap isn't a conventional "fast revenge kill" Mon like MixMence and the Firebirds and is especially not great vs Calm Minders (Cele Rachi Kou) therefore appreciating Aero even further.

It is clear then how much Zap actually wants Spikes and that Spikeless Zapdos is often forcing defensive stability to fool yourself into thinking that you are "safe" from a defensive standpoint. It doesn't provide enough offensive value by itself to justify Spikeless, just like Jolteon for example. Is it doable? Yes obviously. It is Zapdos, the most flexible Mon in ADV. Is it rigid/feels off? Also yes. Is it unoptimal? Probably. This all comes to show that Zap as a mon is the quintenssial "filler" or something that you use because its "good enough" for your team when it comes to Spikeless.

WHAT ABOUT SPIKES?



Spikes Zap is a different story. This is where ranking the Mon super high is justifiable. However the true draw of Zap is once again how it supposedly fits on "every archetype". FJ2K's and Zpanther's posts have highlighted certain reasons that Spikeless Zap just isn't that optimal to begin with. As for Spikes, Zap does fit everywhere in the spectrum again in theory but in reality, it's at its peak on a Zap / Skarm / Pert / Tar / Aero +1 structure where the +1 is either Gengar or Metagross/ Jirachi.

Zap Mence on Spikes is very hard to do and is often defensively flimsy as it usually means Zap as the only special check (workable but not ideal without Aero) and Zap Firebird is either Stallish (valid actually, but incredibly hard to shore up vs physical attackers) or brings Aero for the extra potency anyway. Zap+Bliss is a cool case, it's especially great due to redundancy and allowing Bliss to play more freely. But oftentimes Zap + Tar + Bliss teams lack good MUs vs physical attackers and are often ass vs most Spikeless Offenses and Spikes Aero Zap (ironic isn't it). These builds usually lack Spin too (unless Forre, which makes the Offense problems worse). Once again Aero makes those aspects infinitely more playable, which is why Zap / Skarm or Forre / Pert /Bliss / Ttar / Aero is a classic. However, without Aero, Zap struggles to fit very well on midrange Spikes teams (Bliss stuff, etc) due to its problems. It is one of the GOATs of Spikes Offense ,primarily when paired with Aero (most consistent).

Zap + Cele and Zap + Jolt can work very well without Aero but their best versions have Aero in them. Spikes Stall with Zap is great at fishing but it makes the Rock Spam and Snorlax weakness much greater so usually you don't want to run it.

[I prompted Fruhdazi for clarification because his original wording was incomplete]

Props to Superman however where Rest Zapdos is a machine and absolutely indispensible, using either SpD Wish Jira or Bliss alongside it and Flygon. Zap is practically mandatory alongside Defensive Flygon and fixes a LOT of issues with those builds. Superman is the one style where Zap is truly essential. The rest (midrange TarBliss Spikes, Bliss sandless spikes, Spikes Offense) all can do fine without it, especially if Zap isn't paired with Aero. When looking at the best Zap teams, usually Aero is there. Just look at Classico, the arguable best modern ADV team has Zapdos paired with Aerodactyl.

[El Classico by Hclat]

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

This means that Zapdos isn't the paragon of fitting every archetype like everyone praised it to be. It's actually quite limited if you want the best results possible, as argued here. Spikeless Zap has been a far cry from its touted greatness and while Spikes Zap is excellent, the best Zap Spikes all follow a pattern: Aero . One can argue that it's a sign of creative bankruptcy again, where players do not mess with stuff as much as they should. However, it seems to me that these trends have been constructed little by little and that a minor Zap downfall was always apparent.

This isn't to say that Zap is so much worse, that's not true at all. The thing is that Zap is rightfully not in the top 5 because it simply isn't on the same level as Bliss, Skarm, Tar, Pert and Meta (not my top 5 but what I imagine would be the top 5 if we took all top player opinions in account). Zapdos has a lot more limitations than meets the eye at first since you are drawn to the super flexible catch all pivot that's also incredible offensively but if you think deeply about both Theory and Practice, you realize Zapdos is surprisingly rigid for how flexible it is at its roles.

See ya. Heh.

Spikeless Offense Archetypes analysis

Now onto a brief analysis on Spikeless Offense archetypes Zapdos may find itself on.

Calm Mind Pass

[This is an example team by SEA]

Personally , I'm not a huge fan Calm Mind Pass. The general idea is to pass Calm Mind boosts to Mons who don't have a way to boost their Special stats on their own and use the newfound firepower / bulk to break through Mons that would usually check them. Zard at +1 finds itself seriously denting Milotic and Suicune all of a sudden; DD Tyranitar's Hidden Power Grass can smoke Swampert; etc.

My issue with this archetype comes from how many roadblock answers there are for the CM recipients. DD Tyranitar's +1 HP Grass does only 45 max to Claydol, and does nothing to Flygon. Swampert can't do anything to Milotic. Charizard at +1 still has a decent amount of checks; Defmie can eat a +1 attack and 2HKO; DD Mence can force it out; Moltres can roar freely; Gyarados; Gengar can force swap threatening Explosion; and a bunch more including the elephant in the room Blissey. Other Calm Mind recipients include Mons like Suicune and Metagross. Though the pass is always helpful, for these Mons the boosts wont necessarily have much of an impact helping them defeat their checks. Suicune will appreciate being boosted without having to lose any meaningful health to set up, which is useful for facing the Electric types of the tier, but Mons like Snorlax, Blissey and opposing RoarCune will still be a pain. AgiliGross will appreciate the SpDef boost to runover MonoPert, and possibly the Birds. But the boost may not be that significant vs Regular Pert with EQ, or vs the Birds if it doesn't have Slide ( from the few teams I've looked at, Meta seems to consistently have Boom on CM Pass).

Having so many checks even once set up is a major issue because finding Setup + Pass opportunities becomes increasingly more difficult as a game goes on. The element of surprise is on the Celebi user's side, as in the early game the opponent may go into their own Celebi or a passive Mon to eat a potential Leech Seed, providing an early Set up + Passing opportunity. However once the element of surprise is gone, (good) opponents will play more proactively / aggressively to prevent CM passes from occurring. With 2 slots occupied by Calm Mind and Baton Pass, Celebi will always have limited offensive coverage. Most commonly I've seen Grass + Fire coverage. The opponent can often go hard into Salamence , Fire Types, Zapdos, Aerodactyl and even Gengar because they don't fear anything Celebi has to hit them with. These Mons can hit Celebi hard, meaning its health will be too low to set up and pass for the rest of the game. Aerodactyl can OHKO Celebi depending on its coverage and Celebi's bulk. Zapdos can phase Celebi out. Gengar can come in and click Taunt or threaten Explosion.

So to rehash the previous paragraphs, Celebi can be forced out by a whole bunch of Mons. The offensive threats on CM pass can be checked by a wide variety of Mons even when boosted. This is an issue when the team has no real sustain ; no spin and no recovery. Every time , a Mon is forced out , another likely racks up Spike damage. Celebi's health bar acts as a timer for CM Pass and all your Mons will get whittled down by Spikes if you can't end the game quick enough.

CM Pass is a real and viable archetype. Unfortunately, the tier is littered with checks to its boosted threats, and with a little initiative from the opponent's side, getting set up and passing to a teammate repeatedly can be difficult. Not a terrible archetype, but it is limited and probably shouldn't be a common bring.

SD Pass

[Example team provided by my brother mielke]

I refuse to acknowledge this archetype when it has Zapdos.

Speed Pass

[Cool example of a Speed Pass team provided by mielke]

[Not so cool example by my brother Spreek]

Dead. That boy Shitrock enjoyer tears up every time he talks about this archetype to this day.

Mixed Offense

[Example of a Classic Mixed Offense team]

[Example 2 given by mielke]

High octane offense teams that revolve around breaking down Skarmory as soon as possible before proceeding to progress with their many threats, on both sides of the Offensive spectrum. I believe this archetype will always be good, even if Zapdos is unoptimal on given builds. These teams generally follow simple gameplans, and have the firepower to make forcing plays constantly. The threats synergise offensively and defensively; each Mon possesses a unique set of defensive traits that allow them switch into positions that other Mons may not like, and exert offensive pressure immediately ; what kills one Mon may provide a setup opportunity for another ; threats break for each other, to open up game-winning paths. Pure Mons. Simple as .

Zapdos is often a glue Mon in these builds. Running double Status to support its teammates, acting as a secondary Special Check and threatening to keep problematic Water types in line. However as outlined in Fruhdazi's post, it may not be able to create progress quick enough with Status on Offense builds; it will often lack the firepower to break through and trade like you want your Mons to do on Offense builds; and its ability to check opposing threats is greatly diminished the moment you get chipped or inflicted with Status. These points are part of why Zapdos' valour has been brought into question.

Still, overall Mixed Offense will always be good and real.

So why the sudden discourse? Shouldn't these points have brought Spikeless Zapdos Offense into question a long time ago?


The Speedpass ban was only a couple months ago, so the impact is still fresh. Regardless of how viable you viewed SpeedPass to be, losing access to a tool is always going to be a nerf.

The rise of Slop we should have come up with a better name for this heat archetype :'( has put 2 of Zapdos' adversaries in the limelight.


Not only are these Mons great against Zapdos, but they also collectively fulfil most of the roles Zapdos would usually be chosen for.

Registeel is a Sand immune, Toxic immune progress maker that can run Dual Status, consistently chip targets with Seismic Toss and carries the ever important Explosion which lets it always threaten to trade into an opposing Mon regardless of matchup. Its behemoth bulk and access to Counter allow it to check most Mons in the tier when healthy.

Raikou's great speed; ability to boost its damage and special defense; and coverage to hit both Pert and Celebi at the same time make it an offensive powerhouse. Its potency allows it to be played more flexibly than a Mon like Zapdos, whilst still fulfilling its defensive roles. Raikou can check Water types; has the Speed to stay ahead of +1 Endeavour Swampert and +1 TTar; check the Fire birds; and provides some relief into Gengar.


On top of these 2 Mons, Slop comes strapped with Adamant 252 Tyranitar, DD Salamence , Salac Endeavour Swampert and ocassionally Super Celebi. An archetype where every Mon can potentially switch into Zapdos and threaten it. As an Offense player, you never want to be put on the backfoot and have your momentum halted. Slop turning Zapdos into an exploitable piece inevitably hurts Zapdos' image.

TLDR:
1 -Zapdos' issues on Spikeless Offense have always been visible.
2 -SpeedPass dead.
3 -Slop cucks Spikeless Offense Zapdos.
Points 2 and 3 combined have led to perception of Spikeless Zapdos Offense going down.

 

[5imian]

Great post ruined by AI image gen, wack as fuck

 

[FJ2K]

Great post ruined by AI image gen, wack as fuck

My apologies for any offense I have inflicted :'( The AI generated image has now been SCRUBBED from my post.
Thank you and Amen.

 

[Jhall99]

Nah, Slop is too iconic naming mixed offense at this point, if you showed it to any player in 2020 (Back when Raikou fell off, Zapdos, Snorlax, & Metagross were the defensive staples), they’d assume you’re a confused player either too experimental or a low ladder

 

[Figull400]

Hello, going to wrap up this post - My post on Zapdos and Special Offense.
My plan was initially to write up a post going into detail about Spikeless Offense's strengths and weaknesses. Had a good bit typed out..

However as you can see in the post above , Shitrock Enjoyer has given a great explanation on why Offensive Spikeless Zapdos feels lacklustre in this meta. The idea of Zapdos being a jack of all trades but master of none captures my view perfectly.

So naturally, I am going to steal his post and fix the formatting and grammar. I will provide brief analysis on Spikeless Offense archetypes after, before finally concluding why Spikeless Offense Zapdos isn't as great in the current metagame.

View attachment 795865
Proof that I'm true to this, not new to this . (Not rating Spikeless Zap Offense)

RE: The Zapdos situation



Zapdos is in a weird spot. When looking at Zapdos, I often see it from its defensive position, where its ability as Pivot that is able to defensively guard vs offensive Waters, mixed attackers and Metagross makes it valuable. The problem is the tier is hostile to it in terms of how it makes progress. It's not strong enough vs Offense or Fat without Spikes to really enhance it, its also awkward defensively because any sort of chip makes it significantly worse. From this perspective, it's a frail piece of glass. All of this combined ,with the rise of Spikeless Offenses that drop Zapdos often and the downward spiral that ZapDug has been going in recent years, make Zap's image worse, mainly because Zap's place on Spikeless is practically gone and there are issues for Zap on Spikes too.

THE "TOO FLEXIBLE" PROBLEM:

Zap has this weird quirk where it does everything but the fact it does everything means that it doesn't do anything specific. Zap's toolkit also isnt great at enabling specific roles as the whole appeal of Zapdos is its flexibility as pivot. This compression however creates a lot of rigidity in practice, especially in how you play sets like BP Zap on Spikeless. It also lacks progress tools that are able to progress vs everything while being a Mon whose whole purpose is the flexibility and ability to do so many things in 1 slot .

Agility Pass somewhat fixed the issue but people were too creatively bankrupt to try doing stuff with it, leading to low usage which led to its significant theoretical value not being revealed. Passing speed could accomplish something in all matchups; vs Fat it denies Dug RK ; vs Offense it can sweep Classico and other Aero offenses.

Sub Pass theoretically can do the same but the whole appeal of Zap comes from a defensive standpoint (especially Spikeless) and losing 25% HP in Sand means you can't check a lot of stuff which just isn't worth it. Not only that but the fact its Sub doesn't have 101 HP makes it significantly worse vs stuff like Registeel and Blissey; especially Registeel which is the most perfect t1 switch in to all of Zap's tools (something that wasn't thought to exist outside of Regice) which makes SubPass worse.

To exemplify this, take Double Status Zap on Spikeless. It's able to do quite a bit vs Registeel-less / Raikou-less offense, able to check many threats with Thunder Wave and remains a threat due to its strong Thunderbolt. But there are two things:
- Toxic progresses too slowly (or not at all) vs Fat stuff
- Raikou and Registeel exist and are actual threats (boomers will despise this claim, but its factually true) and Zapdos is rarely that much of a threat for Offense anymore.

Usually what makes Zapdos "broken" vs Offense are the support mons, which is where Spikes, Gengar and Aerodactyl come into the picture. Zap doesn't have a progress tool in every MU and doesn't have a overwhelmingly positive MU vs either side of the spectrum. That is unless it's paired with Spikes and ideally Aerodactyl, to shore up defensively and make Zapdos way more dangerous offensively. Aero takes advantage of the more passive answers (with exception of Registeel) and Zap switches into various Aero checks. Not to mention the fact Zap isn't a conventional "fast revenge kill" Mon like MixMence and the Firebirds and is especially not great vs Calm Minders (Cele Rachi Kou) therefore appreciating Aero even further.

It is clear then how much Zap actually wants Spikes and that Spikeless Zapdos is often forcing defensive stability to fool yourself into thinking that you are "safe" from a defensive standpoint. It doesn't provide enough offensive value by itself to justify Spikeless, just like Jolteon for example. Is it doable? Yes obviously. It is Zapdos, the most flexible Mon in ADV. Is it rigid/feels off? Also yes. Is it unoptimal? Probably. This all comes to show that Zap as a mon is the quintenssial "filler" or something that you use because its "good enough" for your team when it comes to Spikeless.

WHAT ABOUT SPIKES?

Spikes Zap is a different story. This is where ranking the Mon super high is justifiable. However the true draw of Zap is once again how it supposedly fits on "every archetype". FJ2K's and Zpanther's posts have highlighted certain reasons that Spikeless Zap just isn't that optimal to begin with. As for Spikes, Zap does fit everywhere in the spectrum again in theory but in reality, it's at its peak on a Zap / Skarm / Pert / Tar / Aero +1 structure where the +1 is either Gengar or Metagross/ Jirachi.

Zap Mence on Spikes is very hard to do and is often defensively flimsy as it usually means Zap as the only special check (workable but not ideal without Aero) and Zap Firebird is either Stallish (valid actually, but incredibly hard to shore up vs physical attackers) or brings Aero for the extra potency anyway. Zap+Bliss is a cool case, it's especially great due to redundancy and allowing Bliss to play more freely. But oftentimes Zap + Tar + Bliss teams lack good MUs vs physical attackers and are often ass vs most Spikeless Offenses and Spikes Aero Zap (ironic isn't it). These builds usually lack Spin too (unless Forre, which makes the Offense problems worse). Once again Aero makes those aspects infinitely more playable, which is why Zap / Skarm or Forre / Pert /Bliss / Ttar / Aero is a classic. However, without Aero, Zap struggles to fit very well on midrange Spikes teams (Bliss stuff, etc) due to its problems. It is one of the GOATs of Spikes Offense ,primarily when paired with Aero (most consistent).

Zap + Cele and Zap + Jolt can work very well without Aero but their best versions have Aero in them. Spikes Stall with Zap is great at fishing but it makes the Rock Spam and Snorlax weakness much greater so usually you don't want to run it.

View attachment 796002
[I prompted Fruhdazi for clarification because his original wording was incomplete]

Props to Superman however where Rest Zapdos is a machine and absolutely indispensible, using either SpD Wish Jira or Bliss alongside it and Flygon. Zap is practically mandatory alongside Defensive Flygon and fixes a LOT of issues with those builds. Superman is the one style where Zap is truly essential. The rest (midrange TarBliss Spikes, Bliss sandless spikes, Spikes Offense) all can do fine without it, especially if Zap isn't paired with Aero. When looking at the best Zap teams, usually Aero is there. Just look at Classico, the arguable best modern ADV team has Zapdos paired with Aerodactyl.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

This means that Zapdos isn't the paragon of fitting every archetype like everyone praised it to be. It's actually quite limited if you want the best results possible, as argued here. Spikeless Zap has been a far cry from its touted greatness and while Spikes Zap is excellent, the best Zap Spikes all follow a pattern: Aero. One can argue that it's a sign of creative bankruptcy again, where players do not mess with stuff as much as they should. However, it seems to me that these trends have been constructed little by little and that a minor Zap downfall was always apparent.

This isn't to say that Zap is so much worse, that's not true at all. The thing is that Zap is rightfully not in the top 5 because it simply isn't on the same level as Bliss, Skarm, Tar, Pert and Meta (not my top 5 but what I imagine would be the top 5 if we took all top player opinions in account). Zapdos has a lot more limitations than meets the eye at first since you are drawn to the super flexible catch all pivot that's also incredible offensively but if you think deeply about both Theory and Practice, you realize Zapdos is surprisingly rigid for how flexible it is at its roles.

See ya. Heh.

Now onto a brief analysis on Spikeless Offense archetypes Zapdos may find itself on.

Calm Mind Pass
View attachment 795871
[This is an example team]
Personally , I'm not a huge fan Calm Mind Pass. The general idea is to pass Calm Mind boosts to Mons who don't have a way to boost their Special stats on their own and use the newfound firepower / bulk to break through Mons that would usually check them. Zard at +1 finds itself seriously denting Milotic and Suicune all of a sudden; DD Tyranitar's Hidden Power Grass can smoke Swampert; etc.

My issue with this archetype comes from how many roadblock answers there are for the CM recipients. DD Tyranitar's +1 HP Grass does only 45 max to Claydol, and does nothing to Flygon. Swampert can't do anything to Milotic. Charizard at +1 still has a decent amount of checks, Defmie can eat a +1 attack and 2HKO, DD Mence can force it out, Moltres can roar freely, Gyarados, Gengar can force swap threatening Explosion, and a bunch more, including the elephant in the room Blissey. Other Calm Mind recipients include Mons like Suicune and Metagross. Though the pass is always helpful, for these Mons the boosts wont necessarily have much of an impact helping them defeat their checks. Suicune will appreciate being boosted without having to lose any meaningful health to set up, which is useful for facing the Electric types of the tier, but Mons like Snorlax, Blissey and opposing RoarCune will still be a pain. AgiliGross will appreciate the SpDef boost to runover MonoPert, and possibly the Birds. But the boost may not be that significant vs Regular Pert with EQ, or vs the Birds if it doesn't have Slide ( from the few teams I've looked at, Meta seems to consistently have Boom on CM Pass).

Having so many checks even once set up is a major issue because finding Setup + Pass opportunities becomes increasingly more difficult as a game goes on. The element of surprise is on the Celebi user's side as the opponent may go into their own Celebi or another Mon that was intended to eat a Leech, providing an early Passing opportunity. However once the element of surprise is gone, (good) opponents will play more proactively / aggressively to prevent CM passes from ocurring. With 2 slots occupied by Calm Mind and Baton Pass, Celebi will always have limited offensive coverage. Most commonly I've seen Grass+Fire coverage. The opponent can often go hard into Salamence , Fire Types, Zapdos, Aerodactyl and even Gengar because they don't fear anything Celebi has to hit them with. These Mons can hit Celebi hard, meaning its health will be too low to set up and pass for the rest of the game. Aerodactyl can OHKO Celebi depending on its coverage and Celebi's bulk. Zapdos can phase Celebi out. Gengar can come in and click Taunt or threaten Explosion.

So to rehash the previous paragraphs, Celebi can be forced out by a whole bunch of Mons. The offensive threats on CM pass can be checked by a wide variety of Mons even when boosted. This is an issue when the team has no real sustain ; no spin and no recovery. Every time , a Mon is forced out , another likely racks up Spike damage. Celebi's health bar acts as a timer for CM Pass and all your Mons will get whittled down by Spikes if you can't end the game quick enough.

View attachment 795993

CM Pass is a real and viable archetype. Unfortunately, the tier is littered with checks to its boosted threats, and with a little initiative from the opponent's side, getting set up and passing to a teammate repeatedly can be difficult. Not a terrible archetype, but it is limited and probably shouldn't be a common bring.

SD Pass
View attachment 795997
[Example team provided by my brother mielke]

I refuse to acknowledge this archetype when it has Zapdos.

Speed Pass
View attachment 795998
[Cool example of a Speed Pass team provided by mielke]
View attachment 796004
[Not so cool example by my brother Spreek ]

Dead. That boy Shitrock enjoyer tears up every time he talks about this archetype to this day.

Mixed Offense
View attachment 795999
[Example of a Classic Mixed Offense team]
View attachment 796001
[Example 2]

High octane offense teams that revolve around breaking down Skarmory as soon as possible before proceeding to progress with their many threats, on both sides of the Offensive spectrum. I believe this archetype will always be good, even if Zapdos is unoptimal on given builds. These teams generally follow simple gameplans, and have the firepower to make forcing plays constantly. The threats synergise offensively and defensively; each Mon possesses a unique set of defensive traits that allow them switch into positions that other Mons may not like, and exert offensive pressure immediately ; what kills one Mon may provide a setup opportunity for another ; threats break for each other, to open up game-winning paths. Pure Mons. Simple as .

Zapdos is often a glue Mon in these builds. Running double Status to support its teammates, acting as a secondary Special Check and threatening to keep problematic Water types in line. However as outlined in Fruhdazi's post, it may not be able to create progress quick enough with Status on Offense builds; it will often lack the firepower to break through and trade like you want your Mons to do on Offense builds; and its ability to check opposing threats is greatly diminished the moment you get chipped or inflicted with Status at any point. These points are part of why Zapdos' valour has been brought into question.

Still, overall Mixed Offense will always be good and real.

So why the sudden discourse? Shouldn't these points have brought Spikeless Zapdos Offense into question a long time ago?
The Speedpass ban was only a couple months ago, so the impact is still fresh. Regardless of how viable you viewed SpeedPass to be, losing access to a tool is always going to be a nerf.

The rise of Slop we should have come up with a better name for this heat archetype :'( has put 2 of Zapdos' adversaries in the limelight.


Not only are these Mons great against Zapdos, but they also collectively fulfil most of the roles Zapdos would usually be chosen for.
Registeel is a Sand immune, Toxic immune progress maker that can also run Dual Status, consistent chip with Seismic Toss and carries the ever important Explosion which lets it always threaten to trade into an opposing Mon regardless of matchup. Its behemoth bulk and access to Counter allows it to check most Mons in the tier when healthy.
Raikou's great speed; ability to boost its damage and special defense; and coverage to hit both Pert and Celebi at the same time make it an offensive powerhouse. Its potency allows it to be played more flexibly than a Mon like Zapdos, whilst still fulfilling its defensive roles. Raikou can check Water types; has the Speed to stay ahead of +1 Endeavour Swampert and +1 TTar; check the Fire birds; and provides some relief into Gengar.

On top of these 2 Mons, Slop comes strapped with Adamant 252 Tyranitar, DD Salamence , Salac Endeavour Swampert and ocassionally Super Celebi. An archetype where every Mon can potentially switch into Zapdos and threaten it. As an Offense player, you never really want to be put on the backfoot and have your momentum halted. Slop turning Zapdos into an exploitable piece inevitably hurts Zapdos' image.

TLDR:
1 -Issues have always been visible.
2 -SpeedPass dead.
3 -Slop cucks Spikeless Offense Zapdos.
Points 2 and 3 combined have led to perception of Spikeless Zapdos Offense going down.

"How do you do fellow kids" looking ass with that Rabbit pointing at Clock meme, you ain't fooling no one unc...

 

[FJ2K]

"How do you do fellow kids" looking ass with that Rabbit pointing at Clock meme, you ain't fooling no one unc...

My apologies for any offense I have inflicted :'( The funny Rabbit image has now been SCRUBBED from my post.
Thank you and Amen.

 

[Figull400]

i like that image. Also the meme is from last month, its not THAT old

"Oh look at me i'm FJ i know the most recent memes just like you youngsters do i'm so cool and modern" this is what you sound like

 

[IAmJosh27]

My OU rankings. My takes below. I'm no ABR, but I've peaked at #4 on ladder and have wasted enough time on this game to have an opinion. My B rank is very small because the power gap between A and B is so huge.

S Rank
- "big dinosaur give me serotonin" - Reverend
- if didn't exist, Bird would, in fact, be THE word.

A Rank
- Third??? is the ultimate glue mon, the proto-. Throw it on any team and it's instantly better. Counters or checks nearly every OU and niche threats and always accomplishes SOMETHING.

- Seems low, given its ludicrous damage. Great at trading up, but much more prediction reliant and exploitable than other top tiers.
- Higher potential than ANY mon, bar none. OffCune is shockingly strong, Sub sets can somehow beat Blissey, but no single set in ADV has such game-winning potential as CroCune.
- jack of all trades, master of none,but still damn good. AgilPass ban hurts it (but at least I never have to see Jask again)
- always great, but being trap weak easily revenge KO'd hurts it in my book.
- you already know. Dug weaknesses are the fastest
- jack of all trades, master of none part 2. Set diversity is ridiculous, but very threatened by status and ice moves.\
- CELEBI FOR S RANK IN THIS HOUSE. Leech Seed is preposterous, and between crazy bulk, recover, CM, SD, perish song, and heal bell, Celebi can do anything. However, its most underrated utility is dry Baton Pass. A slow Baton Pass on a bulky mon with recover give free pivots to or whatever else goofy frail attacker, like a proto-Teleport
- slightly overrated in my book. Struggles with the rise of and , and often falls a little short. Still a great mon.
- the original scarfer

B Rank



- imo, a better mon outside of bird removal than it gets credit for.
- edges out moltres due to focus punch + better speed + blaze, but molt absolutely has its place due to absolutely statmogging gamefreak's special boy


C Rank

slightly inconsistent, with a high ceiling


- SOOOOO passive, and needs a ton of team support like pursuit and wish. Forre teams are very punishable.

- weaker and slower than medi initially, and dug trapped. Less consistent overall especially on leftovers and CB sets, but SubSalac can with good play (and luck) win games on the spot.
- OU worthy! won't usually get the sweep, but is a strong jolteon sidegrade with a good-enough speed tier and a strong tbolt. Loves spikes and P2.
- OU worthy, part 2! "thunder wave is an OHKO move" - BKC. midgame mixed wall that makes a surprising amount of progress and scares out lots with the threat of boom. Counter with THAT bulk pushes it into OU territory.
- you're on thin ice buddy, but spore, focus punch, and leech are pretty nice

---OU Cutoff---

D Rank
- underwhelming speed, power, and coverage; very mag reliant; limited set variety. Limited to physical offense, but good on the teams it fits on. The embodiment of Meh.
- pretty amazing beyong reverse trapping , but even if it just did that it'd be useful. Great special coverage, status, 32 PP recover, and trace make it a swiss army knife wall/threat even in bad matchups.
- great late game cleaner. It has some atrocious matchups in and , but with and/or spikes support it can wipe 2-3 mons shockingly fast.
- Fast spikes and spore, plus literally any utility option you need. 250 BST lol. Greedy but good.
- sucks ass. Use Skarm, or Forre, or Smeargle. Even this high is generous.

- I guess.
- breloom sidegrade
- Never sweeping, but leech seed is busted and weather clear has its utility.

E Rank and Beyond (select mons)
-ridiculous damage output, but struggles to trades better than 1 for 1 with switch initiative
- sorry BKC. very exploitable.
- how the mighty have fallen. Without explosion, it would always trade down.
- the normal type equivalent of . Needs both pursuit and , but if it gets it, Curse and Heal Bell sets are very annoying.
- run
- the joy of switching into a is amazing, only topped by the horror of zapdos BPing into
- very hard to justify in meta. Not the strongest, not the fastest, no utility, no knock off, does not ride on 24" chromes.

Agree with me, flame me, think whatever you want of me, but start using Bulky dry-pass Celebi!

 

[Janis105]

I'm currently bored, and got inspired by the post above to post my current viability ranking as well. Please note that my ranking is based on how likely I am to bring a given mon to a tour game. I also decided to only rank mons that I (think I) have brought to a tour game before, as I cannot really judge the remaining mons in regard to my criterion. If you think a mon is missing, that is likely the reason.

This ranking procedure means that the following VR is affected by:

1. My perceived viability of a mon in the current metagame
2. A slight degree of personal bias that comes down to what team archetypes I am more comfortable with
3. The larger metagame currently - if a mon is good in a vacuum, but rarely fits on teams that I consider good, it will not be ranked highly

I am a mid player who has only played tour games seriously for less than a year. This, and the ranking criterion given above, means that I am not trying to stir up any drama, but just giving some insight into my opinion to my own and hopefully someone else's amusement. Here goes:

Some remarks:


I genuinely think Swampert is underrated atm. The rise of Slop has shown that EndPert is more viable than people might have thought. Pert is also just insanely customisable in reagard to how offensive it should be, and not passive at all for a defensive mon. It really is the perfect glue mon. That coupled with the fact that I have always gravitated to using it is why I put Swampert even above Skarmory.


If it wasn't for Slop showing that Spikeless Offense is still alive, I would have put Skarmory in S rank, and maybe even above Tar. However, the current meta is showing that Skarm isn't exactly necessary to the degree that Tar is, though it is clearly still a Top 3 mon.


Let's address the elephant in the room. SubCM Jirachi is the best sweeper in the game. I think people are not keen to say that because it can get trapped, and it does not boost speed like DD sweepers do. However, I believe substitute addresses both of these issues. It is very easy to click sub as Dug comes in usually, and force it out. The set should also be bad on paper vs Aero, and while it sometimes still is, with good play the Jirachi can kill the opposing mons behind a sub, making it impossible for Aero to revenge kill. I will still admit that a Tar or Mence are better sweepers if we only consider this aspect. However, SubCM Jirachi also somehow auto wins vs Stall? A Sweeper should not be allowed to be better at breaking than the actual Wallbreakers in the tier. Add to this the fact that it has the best typing in the game, and serves as a secondary rock resist. It also beats Blissey like Sub Cune does, but does not require any weatherclear to do so. Also, so far I have only mentioned one specific set, despite Jirachi arguably being the most customisable mon in the tier. Wish is great, Superachi is great, even Mixed can be amazing, at least when the secondary effects proc. I truly think Jirachi as a whole should be used more, and find it illegal that SubCM is used so little.


Insanely good. Should maybe be A+.


Before I get burned at the stake: This ranking is a result of me being an Aero Spikes main. On a "realistic" VR, I would probably put it around #8. That is still high compared to other rankings. I believe people often don't give Aero enough credit, when it is literally keeping Spikes Offense a meta-defining archetype by itself, and is the main gameplan of El Clasico, arguably the best team in the history of the metagame. Again, this is my view, and probably the reason why I main Aero Spikes.


While #7 is still a good ranking, most people would rank Metagross higher. In a vacuum, I think it is a top 3 mon. But I think people sometimes overlook how Meta is actually used atm. Mag Offense is fishy, and does not even necessarily win when it does find itself vs Skarmory. Spikeless offense is also bad atm, except for Slop. But on Slop, Metagross is not necessary at all. Registeel seems to fit the archetype better. A mon that is competing with Regirock for a spot on Slop should not be considered a centralising mon imo. Don't get me wrong, Meta still fits on many other teams and is heavily customisable, which is why it is still ranked at #7. I think the best Meta set atm is Agility on Spikes Offense. Mixed Meta as a glue mon on SpecOff or MixOff, and Bulky Meta as a glue on Spikes and V5 are sensible brings. But I think it is a way worse rock resist than Swampert in this role - one wrong call vs Aero means getting EQ'd to below 50%. Pert does not have that issue, and opposing Rock Spam needs a better plan than "just outplay lol" against it, in contrast with some Metagross sets. Metagross ofc has more offensive power and Explosion, but I rest my case that it is not as centralising in the current meta as the top 5.


I agree with the recent sentiment in this post that Zapdos has somewhat fallen off. Jolteon and Raikou are at an all time high, which definitely does not help its popularity either. I would have ranked Zapdos even lower if I was not an Aero Spikes main, where it still fits quite nicely, and also really liked Zap V5.


I would have ranked Celebi higher in the past (see Aero Spikes main), but I'm currently not too high on it. I'm not even sure why - dazi style AeroSpikes and Slop are very strong atm - though Celebi is the most replaceable of the "standard" 6 of Slop imo. It just does not click for me atm, but I still think it's a really solid option.


I think I ranked Forre quite highly. I see its flaws, but I think that Forre teams can be very solid vs certain scouts. I also like that Forre Dol is a viable archetype, and at the same time don't think that Pursuit Tar is that restrictive, but a good mon in its own right.


Jolteon is probably at the best it has ever been. The meta heavily favours it atm - JoltSpikes is great vs Slop and Spikes Offense, which are both top 5 archetypes atm. V5 is also very prevalent and should beat it in theory, but a well played JoltSpikes, esepecially if it has Taunt Gengar, can even beat that. I have not used Jolteon often, but ranked it rather highly because I probably should.


The two recent trendy mons are ranked quite highly, because I think they are viable and not just a funny trend. Registeel got a better ranking than Raikou. The reason is that I believe it to be a tiny bit better in general, but more importantly, while Raikou fits on Slop, SpecOff and maaybe could revive other MixOff, Registeel fits on just about any Spikeless Offense, but also on Spikes Offense. Registeel is truly amazing and such a cool new tool in the metagame.


I highly rate V5, but Milotic is ranked rather low for that. The reason is that I strongly dislike how passive it is. In my view, Suicune is often stronger on V5-ish structures, though it does need a tiny bit more support than Milotic.


Jynx lead is underrated. The EVs are customisable to the point where the opponent doesn't know what the best T1 play is, but the Jynx player does. The power of information should not be underestimated. There are games where Jynx just wins from T1 if it has the right set / lands sleep on the right target / gets a freeze. Taunt is amazing. Never Melt Ice is amazing. Sub CM can run away with games.


I have used Flygon like once or twice in a tour game, so I cannot rate it higher. It is probably better than the other mons in B, but it does not click for me.


Machamp is currently the best fighting type, fight me (lol). I believe fighting types are quite weak in the meta, and their role is always to be a Wallbreaker, unless they are Salac Hera. Machamp arguably does that job most reliably. It's great vs Gengar, and gives any team the power to break through stally teams. Most fighting types suffer from their frailty compared to other Wallbreakers, and while Machamp can't stomach absolutely anything, it is at least the bulkiest of the bunch, and benefits the most from Wish support. I really like it on slow-paced Spikeless balance. Dazi also uses it on Slop.


I don't think Regice has fallen off as hard as some claim. I think it is a really good fit on SpecOff and Regice Spikes (duh), both of which are not meta-defining, but definitely archetypes one should occasionally run if a scout encourages it.


Mag Offense is a fish at this point. I don't see a reason to run Magneton when Slop does MagOff's job and is generally better. MagDol is also a mediocre fish, but I appreciate that its existence can keep people from spamming SkarmBliss.


Post-speedpass ban Lead Wak is real. I brought it to Revival Round of 16 (and lost with it hehe). Definitely not great, but a fun tool.


When I started out playing ADV, I loved the idea of having a better attack stat than Groudon in OU. At the same time, spamming Medicham might have kept me from climbing the ladder in my early months. While it sounds appealing in theory, Medicham is just not convincing in practice. It is definitely a viable lead, don't get me wrong. But whenever I load Medi Offense, I lose. Medicham arguably should not haven rîsen to OU - it's giving niche UUBL lead.

 

[TheBaker]

added pert and did some touchups on other mons

Post in thread 'Some of my Pokemon Art'

Dec 29, 2025

Added way more to the ADV VR drawing
each mon is in its own layer/folder, so i can post isolated versions of any mon if anyone wants pfps or whatever (.png was too big, so heres the .jpg)

• TheBaker

• 
• 

i added all of the mons in E tier (+jask)

 

[bdt2002]

The list of Pokémon you'll see below all have one thing in common: over time, these Pokémon have either gone from OU to UUBL, from UUBL to OU, back and forth, or anything else of a similar trend. I'm also going to throw in Registeel to this list because of its recent success in this generation and calls for Registeel to rise to OU proper, a proposal I would also be in support of.



These are just six of the Pokémon I would consider to be a part of ADV's "Bubble Tier", a somewhat arbitrary term I came up with to illustrate what I believe to be signs of healthy metagame development. As a matter of fact, maybe I'm alone on this opinion but I often find myself having significantly more fun learning about these so-called "off-meta" Pokémon and their role in ADV than I do with the "blue bloods" of the tier. Tyranitar, Skarmory, Metagross, don't get me wrong, Pokémon like these are absolutely seen as top-tier for a reason, but you've got to admit, these kinds of Pokémon represent the creative spirit and innovation of ADV to its best, and I also think it's great that lesser experienced and accomplished players, like myself, can be rewarded for trying out new Pokémon with more knowledge of the game as a whole. ADV isn't in a spot right now of "You're actively punished for not using the top dogs" like a handful of games are and it's taken me this long to truly start appreciating that.

Being the big fan of stats that I am, I also can't help but notice that when Pokémon, for the sake of that list of six, either rise to OU or receive attention towards doing so, are usually in that position because they're helping top players fill in some kind of metaphorical hole in the metagame. For example: ADV did not have any "true OU" Fire-Types for the longest time, especially before the rises in popularity of Moltres and Charizard, and as a result many popular team structures at the time had a tendency to stack Fire-weak Pokémon since that's just how the type chart and the meta was back then. Despite this tendency, part of what set the good players apart from the great players was the ability to recongize the environment- yes, the metagame was becoming more friendly to Fire-Types on paper, but Fire-Types still were far from an automatic inclusion on teams because of the Type's inherent weaknesses. As Fire-Types immune to Ground-Type attacks, Spikes, and Dugtrio's Arena Trap, Moltres and eventually Charizard were both discovered to have a significant advantage over the other Fire-Types that allowed these Pokémon to be used on more standard archetypes and a wider variety of teams in general, while still not being considered unhealthy for the metagame in the same way that something like a DPP Clefable situation might be considered as such.

My main point I'm trying to make with this post is that Pokémon like these, the unlikely heroes of the world, these are the ones I tend to call some of my favorites, and I really hope that we get to see more instances of these kinds of metagame shifts over time. I already mentioned I agree with the idea of Registeel For OU, but who knows what could happen next after that? The fact that ADV arguably has the most of these Pokémon out of any generation to date (specifically the risers, though there are fallers too) is testament to how much I want to get back into this metagame.

 

[derptrio idiot]

Why isn't Dugtrio banned? It's banned in every generation OU from 4-9, but not 3. Just a quick glance at OU and UUBL makes it clear that Dugtrio singlehandedly gatekeeps Raikou, Houndoom, Blaziken, Jynx, and arguably Smeargle from OU. The only fire types in OU are flying, and the only electric types are Jolteon (fast enough to HP Ice/Pass), Zapdos (flying), and Magneton (no explanation needed). That's not a coincidence.

 

[Rambode]

Why isn't Dugtrio banned? It's banned in every generation OU from 4-9, but not 3. Just a quick glance at OU and UUBL makes it clear that Dugtrio singlehandedly gatekeeps Raikou, Houndoom, Blaziken, Jynx, and arguably Smeargle from OU. The only fire types in OU are flying, and the only electric types are Jolteon (fast enough to HP Ice/Pass), Zapdos (flying), and Magneton (no explanation needed). That's not a coincidence.

Blaziken and Houndoom would still be doodoo without Dug around, Raikou is worthy of rising IMO and I don't see in what way Dugtrio gatekeeps Smeargle

Edit: Jynx arguably likes Dug since it gets the special walls out of the way for it lol

 

[xtinaxendrix]

Blaziken and Houndoom would still be doodoo without Dug around, Raikou is worthy of rising IMO and I don't see in what way Dugtrio gatekeeps Smeargle

i gatekept a smeargle yesterday

 

[Kollin7]

You can make arguments that Dugtrio should be banned, but the metagame has no duty to make the mons named (or any mon or any strategy) better/viable.

 

[derptrio idiot]

Blaziken and Houndoom would still be doodoo without Dug around, Raikou is worthy of rising IMO and I don't see in what way Dugtrio gatekeeps Smeargle

Edit: Jynx arguably likes Dug since it gets the special walls out of the way for it lol

Smeargle demonstrates the entire problem with Dugtrio. If I open with Smeargle and you open with Dugtrio, the game is now a 6v5. And it's not a brilliant play, it's just putting him in the front spot hoping it gets lucky and catches something slow. I understand Swagger was banned because sometimes it worked so why isn't the "it's 6v5 on turn 1" mechanic treated the same way?