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Lower Tiers RBY ZU Hub
- Thread starter gastlies
- Start date
All the "best" mons in ZU are simultaneously obviously better than the other mons in the tier but also very droppable. You can easily get away with running Dragonair/Sandslash/Magmar/Primeape/Parasect + 1 on every team and be completely fine. Not many levers to pull to counterteam this. Openers are as important as ever in ZU, but the openers are strangely granular. As in, a lot of games have turns where Sandslash is on the field at turn 2, and the Parasect switch is the most obvious thing in the world, and a double to Magmar is a very likely outcome from the Sandslash player. Sometimes Parasect comes in on Sandslash and gets sleep, sometimes Magmar comes in at the same time and Parasect is scared off, sometimes the opponent just stays in lmao and Magmar eats it. Since ZU teams are rather samey, a lot of ZU is just getting turns right. Playing positionally isn't as overpowered as it is in other tiers, openers are chaotic, fastmons play the mirror with each other, and when adding Counter in to the mix, ZU is a rather messy metagame to get a handle of.
Dragonair is the "best" mon in the tier, but that is mostly because it is the most neutral mon in the tier. Nothing wants to take a twave and trade out with it, but simultaneously, it isn't like Dragonair is going to sweep your team since Agility sets aren't particularly powerful, but having a mon to deal with a problematic mon in any gamestate is nice having. It's also good at revenging Sandslash, and usable in openers due to threat of Fire Blast keeping Parasect away. As a lead it is rather good as well, though the poisons do give it trouble.
ZU has close to 0 mons with STAB and Sandslash is one of then, if you do not have an EQ resist your opponent can click EQ for completely free and make progress. I'm not saying that you need an EQ resist you'll lose, but there are a lot of situations where Sandslash has a really great KO range on a paralyzed mon and preserving your mon is worth it. ZU is left with all the bulky rejects that can't hang with all the fastmons in the tiers above, so Sandslash's speed tier is rather decent, and the prevalence of slow trademons in ZU means that Sandslash's EQ is really valuable at getting ranges nothing else does. Lastly, Sandslash is ludicrously bulky for the tier. It can eat a +4 Scyther Hyper Beam 60% of the time, Primeape is forced to run Seismic Toss because of this Pokémon, and eats every hit that Muk can throw out. I'd also like to recommend people to run Slash + Swords Dance or Substitute. It isn't often you get to click SD and Sub in a game, and if you get a free turn, either of them are about as impactful. Slash allows you to midground and get some amount of progress instead of allowing someone to walk inside your house for free.
Magmar is one of the best leads and also one of the best fastmons. Its Fire Blasts are close to impossible to switch into, with only Omanyte and Magmar being able to switch in and then trade out. Magmar is a blank check to trade out with one of your oppponent's mons, while also being really valuable in the early game because it scares out Parasect.
Primeape suffers from Doing-No-Damage Syndrome which prevents it from taking its crown as the mandatory speed control mon. Being the primary fastmon of the tier seems nice, but the ZU is left with all the not good enough bulky, trade mons so running as fastmons as possible isn't as big of a priority. Furthermore, Scyther exists in this tier, and running Magmar and Primeape is how Scyther gets out of hand. Still, having the fastest piece is obviously valuable, and Seismic Toss makes good progress in ZU.
Parasect may seem like complete ass whose sole purpose in life is to click Spore, but actually it is rather decent in the tier. The ability to paralyze something is as powerful as ever, and Sandslash greatly appreciates it. Furthermore, there are like 5 mons in the entire tier that actually have speed control since most mons in ZU are just beefy & sweaty guys clicking non-STAB Body Slam against each other. Even outside of status, the defensive profile of Parasect is relevant. Parasect gets a rather free sleep vs Primeape and Sandslash, which greatly affects the earlygame. The existence of Parasect makes Sandslash's life so much harder, since it needs to commit to clicking Rock Slide instead of clicking a move that actually does damage. Rock Slide allows even frail mons like Dragonair and Tentacool to come in, which obviously is a high variance switch, but it makes the Sandslash user really think on turns about what they want to do and allows the opponent to simply outplay you. Parasect gives you lines to actually play around Sandslash instead of sacking and moving on. Other mons don't really do this because Butterfree just dies to a single Rock Slide, while Scyther and Pidgeot are conditional since they thud into Omanyte, which is a mon that actually makes decent progress in ZU. Parasect is more than a sleep bot, it makes Sandslash's life miserable.
Scyther is probably the best 4th into someone who isn't bringing Omanyte consistently. Scyther is the reason I don't like running both Magmar and Ape in the back without a Rock, Scyther can rather easily get out of hand with an SD. Scyther is one of the few avenues to counterteaming Big 5 spam, even with Omanyte the matchup is playable (into not Scyther, Oma is pretty mid and also Scyther teams bring Tentacool for this occasion anyways.) Still, just like in PU, Scyther is an immense choke artist and not that trustworthy as a lastmon, a lot of the time getting alright value in the midgame is a safer use of Scyther.
Muk is the brokest man's bulky trade mon. Very good in openers since it can switch into Dnair twave and scare it out. Slash gets entry but that isn't the end of the world, especially if one gets a Bslam paralysis since it means an immediate boom is a much better click. Muk is also one of the few lower tier mons with actual moveset variety, Muk can either run Sludge or Body Slam (or a secret third thing called Acid Armor but it isn't very good). Body Slam on average is a better click, but running Body Slam means you want to run coverage for Parasect, which either eats into your ability to run Thunderbolt or Hyper Beam. Sludge allows you to condense Body Slam and Fire Blast into one slot and run Body Slam + Tbolt (or Mega Drain).
I actually don't think Tentacool is that good, individually. It obviously blows up the mons slower than it, but it has horrid matchups into fastmons. I think the two use cases for the mon are 1) when your opponent tends to bring 1 or none amount of fastmons on their teams, or 2) on Scyther / Pidgeot teams versus people who sometimes use Omanyte. Which soundly puts it at the top of A- since it actually enables different teamstyles that aren't just Body Slam beatdown but with my purple guy. Tentacool is basically the only mon apart from Drowzee and Slowpoke that can switch into Omanyte and wants to, and that enables Scyther to be a consistent Pokémon instead of a matchup fish.
Weezing isn't technically outclassed by Muk, they both do different things, Weezing is clicking Fire Blast when it gets entry points which gives it much better matchups versus Sandslash and Muk. But it also lets in Magmar which is pretty bad, since nothing likes switching into its STAB Fire Blast (Omanyte just trades out with Magmar's stoss). Muk doesn't do this, Sandslash doesn't want to reveal its face early game due giving free sleep. As a result, Muk just gives better openers to a team which makes it more generally applicable in all parts of the game. Still, it's a bulky trade mon and really isn't that much worse than Muk -- just moderately outclassed.
If you don't think about it too hard, Slowpoke is like a second Dragonair. Except that it can't be used in the early game because of Parasect and also can't be used to revenge Sandslash. But it does get to click Thunder Wave versus fastmons, so it is like 50% of Dragonair. I don't think 1 attack rest amnesia twave is that good, Slowpoke needs so much going right for that to get going, and it is really hard to rest in this tier. Also, Slowpoke really wants both Psychic and Surf, one for ape and the poisons and tent, and one for Sandslash. I think 2 attacks twave amnesia is the best of both worlds since it gives you both stabs.
Omanyte is the default stop to Scyther. It is as offensively potent as Tentacool, so nothing really likes giving it entry, and it also gives the user the option to trade out with Magmar to save something. I don't think Omanyte is particularly good, the speed tier is really bad and is one of the causes of Sandslash EQ being so good, a lot of the tier is flat out 2HKO'd by it. Usually, in the not Scyther matchup, you wish this guy was actually a Tentacool.
Butterfree is like Parasect but you want lead sleep. It's vs the two common leads, Magmar and Dragonair since it doesn't get OHKO'd, but other than that, Parasect mostly outclasses this Pokémon outside of the lead slot. Butterfree's Psychic isn't as threatening or as good at pushing sleep past a 40% paralyzed Pokémon, and its defensive profile is worse at keeping Sandslash malding at all times since the opponent needs to get only 1 turn right instead of 2 if you were to run Parasect in its place.
Pidgeot isn't particularly good, Rock-Types wall it and the nuclear Hyper Beam that makes it good in PU isn't as relevant here since the mons are quite physically bulky while not specially bulky, meaning Magmar on average is a better revenge KOer especially since it outspeeds Bird too. What's stopping you from running Pidgeot and Primeape/Magmar on the same team, though? Not much, obviously Omanyte is pretty rough for Bird so I think Magmar is a better fit since sometimes your opponent opts to trade out Omanyte for your Magmar, enabling your Pidgeot. Other than that, Pidgeot also suffers from two moveslot syndrome, Agility is pretty good, and Wing Attack is probably the second best filler since you can 2HKO Parasect (crit Wing Attack is a 56% roll LOL). But realistically, you can run Quick Attack or Mirror Move or Sky Attack.
Everyone knows what Poliwag does, it comes in and clicks Hypnosis. Poliwag doesn't "double out", it doesn't "play positionally," it doesn't "make plays," and it doesn't "enable novel team compositions." Poliwag clicks Hypnosis, and if it misses, it loses the game, just like God intended. For all that effort, it isn't as if hitting Hypnosis like wins the game on the spot. You slept something and probably trade with the next mon in. And then your opponent sleeps something else on your team.
One would think, if one wants a Rock-type so one doesn't lose to Scyther, that they would chose the mon that actually does damage and makes progress by its lonesome. That is a valid way of thinking, but we live in the era of December 11th of 2025, the world is prepared for this type of person since Scyther + Tentacool is a valid team structure. With Onix, you get to click Earthquake which is enough of a threat to Tentacool to scare it from switching in. Onix also has a better opener than Omanyte since it has access to Explosion to reset gamestates to something more neutral if Onix gets caught in a bad spot. Obviously, Onix is shackled by doing no damage and you kind of hoping your opponent brings a bird so you can collect your paycheck. With Omanyte you can kind of cope in matchups that aren't ideal by pretending that you are running a slow Tentacool, but with Onix you are kinda hoping to blow up on Parasect to maybe prevent sleep or sleep sac it altogether, which is obviously pretty bad in opportunity cost.
I don't think Drowzee is good. The strengths are that it beats Dragonair and Omanyte, but I feel that Tentacool is a better option if you need a Pokémon that can switch into Omanyte since it doesn't have to rely on Hypnosis accuracy, and instead of sleeping something, Tentacool just picks up a KO. The other strength, beating the best mon in the tier, isn't that powerful, since Dragonair wants to trade out with something, so bringing a mon that is your dedicated Dragonair trade out recipient isn't worth it. If you run Drowzee a lot, people will also start to tech Hyper Beam on Dragonair as well. And after sleep, Drowzee doesn't do the thing that Parasect does, which is make Sandslash's life hell. One time I saw a game in ZU Open, where the opponent clicked Swords Dance on Sandslash on like turn 5. I thought it was a bad move, since sleep was on the table, and Parasect or Butterfree would come in next and sleep Sandslash. But then Sandslash picked up another KO and got off one more Earthquake, and the reason was because the opponent was running dumbass unserious Drowzee instead of a real sleeper. Primeape and Sandslash and Magmar make this mon not good into the rest of the meta either, the poisons outspeed and Hyper Beam does a ton from Muk or they can just boom. I don't think Drowzee is worth the teamslot, "I get to own Dragonair so I can instead lose to the mons that actually make progress" is not a good strategy.
ZU doesn't really have an Agility mon (though I'd consider Scyther to effectively be one since it outspeeds everyone), so trying to preserve all your guys is a much less punishable way of playing than in other tiers. Horsea is a rather middling Agility sweeper, but it does do well against that playstyle. But usually, Scyther or Tentacool is better.
Double Fire isn't particularly good in ZU. The meta is just not favorable for it, it is one more deadslot on your team that is afraid of coming in versus Sandslash, Omanyte exists, Ape outspeeds and 2HKOs, Magmar has counter to make the matchup highly volatile, it also dies to +2 Hyper Beam from Scyther, and Tentacool outspeeds. Fire overload just doesn't work in ZU because there isn't some squishy reward at the end of the path, all the ZU mons aren't particular afraid of a slow, frail Fire Type, so Flareon doesn't really enable your Magmar (or other Fire Types) to get more value. Still, in the lead, you can kinda of play the game.
Dragonair is the "best" mon in the tier, but that is mostly because it is the most neutral mon in the tier. Nothing wants to take a twave and trade out with it, but simultaneously, it isn't like Dragonair is going to sweep your team since Agility sets aren't particularly powerful, but having a mon to deal with a problematic mon in any gamestate is nice having. It's also good at revenging Sandslash, and usable in openers due to threat of Fire Blast keeping Parasect away. As a lead it is rather good as well, though the poisons do give it trouble. ZU has close to 0 mons with STAB and Sandslash is one of then, if you do not have an EQ resist your opponent can click EQ for completely free and make progress. I'm not saying that you need an EQ resist you'll lose, but there are a lot of situations where Sandslash has a really great KO range on a paralyzed mon and preserving your mon is worth it. ZU is left with all the bulky rejects that can't hang with all the fastmons in the tiers above, so Sandslash's speed tier is rather decent, and the prevalence of slow trademons in ZU means that Sandslash's EQ is really valuable at getting ranges nothing else does. Lastly, Sandslash is ludicrously bulky for the tier. It can eat a +4 Scyther Hyper Beam 60% of the time, Primeape is forced to run Seismic Toss because of this Pokémon, and eats every hit that Muk can throw out. I'd also like to recommend people to run Slash + Swords Dance or Substitute. It isn't often you get to click SD and Sub in a game, and if you get a free turn, either of them are about as impactful. Slash allows you to midground and get some amount of progress instead of allowing someone to walk inside your house for free. Magmar is one of the best leads and also one of the best fastmons. Its Fire Blasts are close to impossible to switch into, with only Omanyte and Magmar being able to switch in and then trade out. Magmar is a blank check to trade out with one of your oppponent's mons, while also being really valuable in the early game because it scares out Parasect. Primeape suffers from Doing-No-Damage Syndrome which prevents it from taking its crown as the mandatory speed control mon. Being the primary fastmon of the tier seems nice, but the ZU is left with all the not good enough bulky, trade mons so running as fastmons as possible isn't as big of a priority. Furthermore, Scyther exists in this tier, and running Magmar and Primeape is how Scyther gets out of hand. Still, having the fastest piece is obviously valuable, and Seismic Toss makes good progress in ZU. Parasect may seem like complete ass whose sole purpose in life is to click Spore, but actually it is rather decent in the tier. The ability to paralyze something is as powerful as ever, and Sandslash greatly appreciates it. Furthermore, there are like 5 mons in the entire tier that actually have speed control since most mons in ZU are just beefy & sweaty guys clicking non-STAB Body Slam against each other. Even outside of status, the defensive profile of Parasect is relevant. Parasect gets a rather free sleep vs Primeape and Sandslash, which greatly affects the earlygame. The existence of Parasect makes Sandslash's life so much harder, since it needs to commit to clicking Rock Slide instead of clicking a move that actually does damage. Rock Slide allows even frail mons like Dragonair and Tentacool to come in, which obviously is a high variance switch, but it makes the Sandslash user really think on turns about what they want to do and allows the opponent to simply outplay you. Parasect gives you lines to actually play around Sandslash instead of sacking and moving on. Other mons don't really do this because Butterfree just dies to a single Rock Slide, while Scyther and Pidgeot are conditional since they thud into Omanyte, which is a mon that actually makes decent progress in ZU. Parasect is more than a sleep bot, it makes Sandslash's life miserable. Scyther is probably the best 4th into someone who isn't bringing Omanyte consistently. Scyther is the reason I don't like running both Magmar and Ape in the back without a Rock, Scyther can rather easily get out of hand with an SD. Scyther is one of the few avenues to counterteaming Big 5 spam, even with Omanyte the matchup is playable (into not Scyther, Oma is pretty mid and also Scyther teams bring Tentacool for this occasion anyways.) Still, just like in PU, Scyther is an immense choke artist and not that trustworthy as a lastmon, a lot of the time getting alright value in the midgame is a safer use of Scyther. Muk is the brokest man's bulky trade mon. Very good in openers since it can switch into Dnair twave and scare it out. Slash gets entry but that isn't the end of the world, especially if one gets a Bslam paralysis since it means an immediate boom is a much better click. Muk is also one of the few lower tier mons with actual moveset variety, Muk can either run Sludge or Body Slam (or a secret third thing called Acid Armor but it isn't very good). Body Slam on average is a better click, but running Body Slam means you want to run coverage for Parasect, which either eats into your ability to run Thunderbolt or Hyper Beam. Sludge allows you to condense Body Slam and Fire Blast into one slot and run Body Slam + Tbolt (or Mega Drain). I actually don't think Tentacool is that good, individually. It obviously blows up the mons slower than it, but it has horrid matchups into fastmons. I think the two use cases for the mon are 1) when your opponent tends to bring 1 or none amount of fastmons on their teams, or 2) on Scyther / Pidgeot teams versus people who sometimes use Omanyte. Which soundly puts it at the top of A- since it actually enables different teamstyles that aren't just Body Slam beatdown but with my purple guy. Tentacool is basically the only mon apart from Drowzee and Slowpoke that can switch into Omanyte and wants to, and that enables Scyther to be a consistent Pokémon instead of a matchup fish. Weezing isn't technically outclassed by Muk, they both do different things, Weezing is clicking Fire Blast when it gets entry points which gives it much better matchups versus Sandslash and Muk. But it also lets in Magmar which is pretty bad, since nothing likes switching into its STAB Fire Blast (Omanyte just trades out with Magmar's stoss). Muk doesn't do this, Sandslash doesn't want to reveal its face early game due giving free sleep. As a result, Muk just gives better openers to a team which makes it more generally applicable in all parts of the game. Still, it's a bulky trade mon and really isn't that much worse than Muk -- just moderately outclassed. If you don't think about it too hard, Slowpoke is like a second Dragonair. Except that it can't be used in the early game because of Parasect and also can't be used to revenge Sandslash. But it does get to click Thunder Wave versus fastmons, so it is like 50% of Dragonair. I don't think 1 attack rest amnesia twave is that good, Slowpoke needs so much going right for that to get going, and it is really hard to rest in this tier. Also, Slowpoke really wants both Psychic and Surf, one for ape and the poisons and tent, and one for Sandslash. I think 2 attacks twave amnesia is the best of both worlds since it gives you both stabs. Omanyte is the default stop to Scyther. It is as offensively potent as Tentacool, so nothing really likes giving it entry, and it also gives the user the option to trade out with Magmar to save something. I don't think Omanyte is particularly good, the speed tier is really bad and is one of the causes of Sandslash EQ being so good, a lot of the tier is flat out 2HKO'd by it. Usually, in the not Scyther matchup, you wish this guy was actually a Tentacool. Butterfree is like Parasect but you want lead sleep. It's vs the two common leads, Magmar and Dragonair since it doesn't get OHKO'd, but other than that, Parasect mostly outclasses this Pokémon outside of the lead slot. Butterfree's Psychic isn't as threatening or as good at pushing sleep past a 40% paralyzed Pokémon, and its defensive profile is worse at keeping Sandslash malding at all times since the opponent needs to get only 1 turn right instead of 2 if you were to run Parasect in its place. Pidgeot isn't particularly good, Rock-Types wall it and the nuclear Hyper Beam that makes it good in PU isn't as relevant here since the mons are quite physically bulky while not specially bulky, meaning Magmar on average is a better revenge KOer especially since it outspeeds Bird too. What's stopping you from running Pidgeot and Primeape/Magmar on the same team, though? Not much, obviously Omanyte is pretty rough for Bird so I think Magmar is a better fit since sometimes your opponent opts to trade out Omanyte for your Magmar, enabling your Pidgeot. Other than that, Pidgeot also suffers from two moveslot syndrome, Agility is pretty good, and Wing Attack is probably the second best filler since you can 2HKO Parasect (crit Wing Attack is a 56% roll LOL). But realistically, you can run Quick Attack or Mirror Move or Sky Attack. Everyone knows what Poliwag does, it comes in and clicks Hypnosis. Poliwag doesn't "double out", it doesn't "play positionally," it doesn't "make plays," and it doesn't "enable novel team compositions." Poliwag clicks Hypnosis, and if it misses, it loses the game, just like God intended. For all that effort, it isn't as if hitting Hypnosis like wins the game on the spot. You slept something and probably trade with the next mon in. And then your opponent sleeps something else on your team. One would think, if one wants a Rock-type so one doesn't lose to Scyther, that they would chose the mon that actually does damage and makes progress by its lonesome. That is a valid way of thinking, but we live in the era of December 11th of 2025, the world is prepared for this type of person since Scyther + Tentacool is a valid team structure. With Onix, you get to click Earthquake which is enough of a threat to Tentacool to scare it from switching in. Onix also has a better opener than Omanyte since it has access to Explosion to reset gamestates to something more neutral if Onix gets caught in a bad spot. Obviously, Onix is shackled by doing no damage and you kind of hoping your opponent brings a bird so you can collect your paycheck. With Omanyte you can kind of cope in matchups that aren't ideal by pretending that you are running a slow Tentacool, but with Onix you are kinda hoping to blow up on Parasect to maybe prevent sleep or sleep sac it altogether, which is obviously pretty bad in opportunity cost. I don't think Drowzee is good. The strengths are that it beats Dragonair and Omanyte, but I feel that Tentacool is a better option if you need a Pokémon that can switch into Omanyte since it doesn't have to rely on Hypnosis accuracy, and instead of sleeping something, Tentacool just picks up a KO. The other strength, beating the best mon in the tier, isn't that powerful, since Dragonair wants to trade out with something, so bringing a mon that is your dedicated Dragonair trade out recipient isn't worth it. If you run Drowzee a lot, people will also start to tech Hyper Beam on Dragonair as well. And after sleep, Drowzee doesn't do the thing that Parasect does, which is make Sandslash's life hell. One time I saw a game in ZU Open, where the opponent clicked Swords Dance on Sandslash on like turn 5. I thought it was a bad move, since sleep was on the table, and Parasect or Butterfree would come in next and sleep Sandslash. But then Sandslash picked up another KO and got off one more Earthquake, and the reason was because the opponent was running dumbass unserious Drowzee instead of a real sleeper. Primeape and Sandslash and Magmar make this mon not good into the rest of the meta either, the poisons outspeed and Hyper Beam does a ton from Muk or they can just boom. I don't think Drowzee is worth the teamslot, "I get to own Dragonair so I can instead lose to the mons that actually make progress" is not a good strategy. ZU doesn't really have an Agility mon (though I'd consider Scyther to effectively be one since it outspeeds everyone), so trying to preserve all your guys is a much less punishable way of playing than in other tiers. Horsea is a rather middling Agility sweeper, but it does do well against that playstyle. But usually, Scyther or Tentacool is better. Double Fire isn't particularly good in ZU. The meta is just not favorable for it, it is one more deadslot on your team that is afraid of coming in versus Sandslash, Omanyte exists, Ape outspeeds and 2HKOs, Magmar has counter to make the matchup highly volatile, it also dies to +2 Hyper Beam from Scyther, and Tentacool outspeeds. Fire overload just doesn't work in ZU because there isn't some squishy reward at the end of the path, all the ZU mons aren't particular afraid of a slow, frail Fire Type, so Flareon doesn't really enable your Magmar (or other Fire Types) to get more value. Still, in the lead, you can kinda of play the game. A lot of these mons are "but why though" or "what does it even do?"
Tortle is probably the realest of this group, but it is hard to justify over Tentacool and Omanyte.
Rhyhorn is like Onix but you can't play it in the opening (and even more outclassed by Omanyte).
Marowak is a second Sandslash but doesn't have the bulk and gets revenged way easier. It also doesn't have the rolls to be worth bringing once you consider the bad matchups Sandslash + Marowak teams tend to have.
Lickitung is one of those bulky trademon leads but it also instantly loses to a burn, so why bother.
Ponyta is outclassed by Charmeleon, who is outclassed by Flareon, and all three of these Pokémon have a really unfavored and volatile Magmar matchup. I don't think Fire Spam as an archetype is that good in ZU.
Arbok stacks another mon that Sandslash farms while also doing really bad damage. Definitely a "but why though" type Pokemon.
Tortle is probably the realest of this group, but it is hard to justify over Tentacool and Omanyte. Rhyhorn is like Onix but you can't play it in the opening (and even more outclassed by Omanyte). Marowak is a second Sandslash but doesn't have the bulk and gets revenged way easier. It also doesn't have the rolls to be worth bringing once you consider the bad matchups Sandslash + Marowak teams tend to have. Lickitung is one of those bulky trademon leads but it also instantly loses to a burn, so why bother. Ponyta is outclassed by Charmeleon, who is outclassed by Flareon, and all three of these Pokémon have a really unfavored and volatile Magmar matchup. I don't think Fire Spam as an archetype is that good in ZU. Arbok stacks another mon that Sandslash farms while also doing really bad damage. Definitely a "but why though" type Pokemon.
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Heyo, RBY ZU's 2nd official VR is here— thanks to all the submitters for shaping this (Wanted in 49 States, sleid, Maris Bonibell, Tizio, hammer798, Cao Jie, Zpice, BeatsBlack, NotVeryCake)! Individual rankings can be viewed here. Reminder that this does NOT affect rises/drops, and is a gap year VR for posterity. That being said, lets take a look at the tier and the changes from the provisional VL from March of this year.
NEW VR
Biggest Winners
Dragonair: +4 (#5 to #1) - Jumping from the fringes of the top tier to safely top 1, Dragonair claiming the #1 spot is a bit of a surprise— to me at least. There was no outpouring of support for Dragonair, no realizing that it filled a new niche or hit new ranges, but it slowly become more and more of a staple and silently slithered into the top 1 spot, with 50% of our submitters listing it as #1. It's not a particularly hard counter to anything, but its happy to stay in and fight any of the top 6 mons, which is a consistency in high-tier matchups that no other ZU mon really gives you.
Muk: +6 (#13 to #7) - Muk is sporting the single biggest numerical change of the entire list at +6. It seems like people are really gravitating to it as a Scyther check on rockless teams and a general trade machine against anything not named Sandslash or Onix. While it was ranked right below Weezing on the VL, it has since won the bulky poison war. Wanted in 49 States wrote a great Muk vs Weezing piece here, and it goes into a lot more detail than I ever could, but the short of it is that Muk's higher special bulk and more importantly higher attack has made it a much more potent physical attacker, and its explosions hit better ranges than Weezing's does. For example, Weezing has to rely on a range to kill Magmar, Dragonair, Primeape, Arbok, and Flareon, while Muk OHKOs all of them guaranteed, and also scores a range to kill on Scyther, Parasect, and Slowpoke while Weezing can't kill any of them without a crit. Muk also has a lot more set diversity, with (by my count) 9 viable moves, 7 of which you can genuinely expect to see on any standard set (excluding the uncommon acid armor/rest Muk). Compared with Weezing's almost guaranteed set of Fblast/Tbolt/Hbeam/Explosion, people have to play a bit more risky in defending against Muk.
Tentacool: +2 (#11 to #9) - Only a slight bump in position, but wanted to mention it given he went from middle of the "Mid" section of the VL to A tier on the VR. Tentacool has a great niche as a defensive tool against Omanyte which lets it pair well with Scyther, and it acts as a great revenger against our #2 mon Sandslash, outspeeding and OHKOing with hydro pump, something no other ZU mon can do. It can also comfortably fight Dragonair, since even though it only speed ties, Tentacool 2hkos with Blizzard while Dnair 3hkos it in return). It does really hate how defensively frail it is in a tier with 4 fast physical attackers, but its offensive power alone gives it good breaking ability against the fastmons, since none of them outright OHKO a full-health Tentacool.
Slowpoke: +4 (#15 to #11 - Slowpoke jumped from nearly dropping to SU to one of the highest ranking mid-tier mons on the VR, due mainly it seems to its physical bulk and twave utility. One of only 3 ZU mons with access to thunder wave, it can act as a sort of diet Dragonair, twaving fastmons and trading down hp with most of the tier. It can also try to rest after setting up amnesias (2 calm minds btw) and in the right endgame just stonewall entire teams. The non-ubiquity of rest on Slowpoke also makes playing around it a bit difficult, since it quite often drops rest to fit extra coverage moves and act as a breaker rather than a sweeper/wall. If you switch in a 3hko mon expecting a rest and eat a +2 psychic or surf, suddenly you're in big trouble.
Onix: +3 (#17 to #14) - The Omanyte hype train dying down seems to have fared well for Onix, since they're largely competing for the same teamslot. With bulkier poisons like Muk becoming more common Scyther answers, Onix's matchup spread went from "really bad" to only "mostly bad". It still stonewalls Scyther & Pidgeot just like Omanyte, but its ability to outspeed everything except the fastmons lets it both fight the poisons better and get off a last-ditch explosion in certain bad matchups like Sandslash or Primeape.
Horsea: +3 (#20 to #17) - Largely unremarkable since it's still in C tier, but it's mirroring Tentacool's jump in sentiment as an Omanyte answer that can also agility sweep in the right endgame. The fastmons kind of clobber Tentacool since they all hit it hard physically, but Horsea has much higher defense than Tentacool, and if it sets up an agility on something like Omanyte, it outspeeds and hits them all quite hard. Of the top 6, the only mon that horsea isn't hitting super effectively is Primeape, and with an agility up it still wins that 1v1, since toss into beam doesn't OHKO. Now it can't be understated that Horsea is also pretty underwhelming without an agility up. It can't outspeed Dragonair/Sandslash/Butterfree/Onix/Flareon like Tentacool can, and it's only hitting 80% as hard, which you can really feel. Still, it's got a cool niche, fills it well, and people seem to be taking notice of it.
Biggest Losers
Magmar: -2 (#1 to #3) - It's hard to call a top 3 mon a loser, but given it not only lost its top 1 status but also dropped below sandslash, it has to be mentioned. It's still an amazing mon, and it's just as good as it always was, people just seem to prefer the consistency of Dragonair & Sandslash more.
Scyther: -2 (#4 to #6) - People learning to check Scyther with non-rock types hasn't been great for it, especially since the rock types had much safer switch-ins than the bulky checks like Muk/Weezing. Omanyte and Onix can be pretty safely neutralized by Tentacool and Sandslash respectively, but once Muk is on the field, not much truly wants to eat all of its anti-scyther moves. Scyther is still the endgame menace it always was, it's just no longer the binary "have a rock type or lose" environment it used to live in.
Butterfree: -3 (#8 to #11) - Still a solid sleeper, and decidedly in 2nd place if you want a sleeper that's not Parasect, but the prominence of Parasect has sort of stymied Butterfree's niche as a Sandslash switch-in. Parasect being such an omnipresent Sandslash answer lead to people clicking rock slide over EQ trying to catch Parasect and potentially gimp it pre-sleep if either of 2 rock slides crit. If Sandslash tries that move expecting a Parasect and gets a Butterfree, suddenly you're just playing the game 5-6 and without a sleeper. That's a really hard deficit to come back from. It still has utility, and double powder + substitute lets it set up some really stifling positions, but the Sandslash prediction tech turned one of its previously most-important strengths into one of its biggest weaknesses.
Pidgeot: -4 (#9 to #13) - A bit of a surprise for me given its raw power and Omanyte usage coming down since the VL, but looking at its matchups against most of the top mons it's not actually all that strange. Most of the time Scyther/Magmar/Primeape are just better picks for fastmons, and the all powerful STAB hyper beam niche is less valuable here due to a prominence of rocks and physically bulky mons like Muk/Weezing/Slowpoke/Parasect.
Drowzee: -5 (#10 to #15) - The single largest numerical drop from VL to VR, Drowzee is in a slump to put it lightly. It has access to thunder wave, a sleep move, and STAB psychic which are all great, but its relatively low physical bulk paired with an inaccurate sleep move and low speed doesn't serve it well in ZU the way it does in PU. Almost everything in ZU outspeeds and 3hkos it, so getting a lot of tempo with hypnosis into twave is shaky at best. It does hit quite hard, and its the most offensively inclined of the double status mons for sure, but the lack of reactive defensive utility seems to have made submitters sour on it and gravitate more to Parasect and Butterfree for their consistency.
With all that analysis done with, who's ready for all of it to immediately become irrelevant in a few days? WOOOO say goodbye to 3 of the best mons in the tier and say hello to a bunch of mediocre mons from PU that are about to crack ZU wide open. Looking forward to another great year of ZU gaming, and thanks to everyone who helped shape the meta this go around!
NEW VR
Biggest Winners
Dragonair: +4 (#5 to #1) - Jumping from the fringes of the top tier to safely top 1, Dragonair claiming the #1 spot is a bit of a surprise— to me at least. There was no outpouring of support for Dragonair, no realizing that it filled a new niche or hit new ranges, but it slowly become more and more of a staple and silently slithered into the top 1 spot, with 50% of our submitters listing it as #1. It's not a particularly hard counter to anything, but its happy to stay in and fight any of the top 6 mons, which is a consistency in high-tier matchups that no other ZU mon really gives you. Muk: +6 (#13 to #7) - Muk is sporting the single biggest numerical change of the entire list at +6. It seems like people are really gravitating to it as a Scyther check on rockless teams and a general trade machine against anything not named Sandslash or Onix. While it was ranked right below Weezing on the VL, it has since won the bulky poison war. Wanted in 49 States wrote a great Muk vs Weezing piece here, and it goes into a lot more detail than I ever could, but the short of it is that Muk's higher special bulk and more importantly higher attack has made it a much more potent physical attacker, and its explosions hit better ranges than Weezing's does. For example, Weezing has to rely on a range to kill Magmar, Dragonair, Primeape, Arbok, and Flareon, while Muk OHKOs all of them guaranteed, and also scores a range to kill on Scyther, Parasect, and Slowpoke while Weezing can't kill any of them without a crit. Muk also has a lot more set diversity, with (by my count) 9 viable moves, 7 of which you can genuinely expect to see on any standard set (excluding the uncommon acid armor/rest Muk). Compared with Weezing's almost guaranteed set of Fblast/Tbolt/Hbeam/Explosion, people have to play a bit more risky in defending against Muk. Tentacool: +2 (#11 to #9) - Only a slight bump in position, but wanted to mention it given he went from middle of the "Mid" section of the VL to A tier on the VR. Tentacool has a great niche as a defensive tool against Omanyte which lets it pair well with Scyther, and it acts as a great revenger against our #2 mon Sandslash, outspeeding and OHKOing with hydro pump, something no other ZU mon can do. It can also comfortably fight Dragonair, since even though it only speed ties, Tentacool 2hkos with Blizzard while Dnair 3hkos it in return). It does really hate how defensively frail it is in a tier with 4 fast physical attackers, but its offensive power alone gives it good breaking ability against the fastmons, since none of them outright OHKO a full-health Tentacool. Slowpoke: +4 (#15 to #11 - Slowpoke jumped from nearly dropping to SU to one of the highest ranking mid-tier mons on the VR, due mainly it seems to its physical bulk and twave utility. One of only 3 ZU mons with access to thunder wave, it can act as a sort of diet Dragonair, twaving fastmons and trading down hp with most of the tier. It can also try to rest after setting up amnesias (2 calm minds btw) and in the right endgame just stonewall entire teams. The non-ubiquity of rest on Slowpoke also makes playing around it a bit difficult, since it quite often drops rest to fit extra coverage moves and act as a breaker rather than a sweeper/wall. If you switch in a 3hko mon expecting a rest and eat a +2 psychic or surf, suddenly you're in big trouble. Onix: +3 (#17 to #14) - The Omanyte hype train dying down seems to have fared well for Onix, since they're largely competing for the same teamslot. With bulkier poisons like Muk becoming more common Scyther answers, Onix's matchup spread went from "really bad" to only "mostly bad". It still stonewalls Scyther & Pidgeot just like Omanyte, but its ability to outspeed everything except the fastmons lets it both fight the poisons better and get off a last-ditch explosion in certain bad matchups like Sandslash or Primeape. Horsea: +3 (#20 to #17) - Largely unremarkable since it's still in C tier, but it's mirroring Tentacool's jump in sentiment as an Omanyte answer that can also agility sweep in the right endgame. The fastmons kind of clobber Tentacool since they all hit it hard physically, but Horsea has much higher defense than Tentacool, and if it sets up an agility on something like Omanyte, it outspeeds and hits them all quite hard. Of the top 6, the only mon that horsea isn't hitting super effectively is Primeape, and with an agility up it still wins that 1v1, since toss into beam doesn't OHKO. Now it can't be understated that Horsea is also pretty underwhelming without an agility up. It can't outspeed Dragonair/Sandslash/Butterfree/Onix/Flareon like Tentacool can, and it's only hitting 80% as hard, which you can really feel. Still, it's got a cool niche, fills it well, and people seem to be taking notice of it.Biggest Losers
Magmar: -2 (#1 to #3) - It's hard to call a top 3 mon a loser, but given it not only lost its top 1 status but also dropped below sandslash, it has to be mentioned. It's still an amazing mon, and it's just as good as it always was, people just seem to prefer the consistency of Dragonair & Sandslash more. Scyther: -2 (#4 to #6) - People learning to check Scyther with non-rock types hasn't been great for it, especially since the rock types had much safer switch-ins than the bulky checks like Muk/Weezing. Omanyte and Onix can be pretty safely neutralized by Tentacool and Sandslash respectively, but once Muk is on the field, not much truly wants to eat all of its anti-scyther moves. Scyther is still the endgame menace it always was, it's just no longer the binary "have a rock type or lose" environment it used to live in. Butterfree: -3 (#8 to #11) - Still a solid sleeper, and decidedly in 2nd place if you want a sleeper that's not Parasect, but the prominence of Parasect has sort of stymied Butterfree's niche as a Sandslash switch-in. Parasect being such an omnipresent Sandslash answer lead to people clicking rock slide over EQ trying to catch Parasect and potentially gimp it pre-sleep if either of 2 rock slides crit. If Sandslash tries that move expecting a Parasect and gets a Butterfree, suddenly you're just playing the game 5-6 and without a sleeper. That's a really hard deficit to come back from. It still has utility, and double powder + substitute lets it set up some really stifling positions, but the Sandslash prediction tech turned one of its previously most-important strengths into one of its biggest weaknesses. Pidgeot: -4 (#9 to #13) - A bit of a surprise for me given its raw power and Omanyte usage coming down since the VL, but looking at its matchups against most of the top mons it's not actually all that strange. Most of the time Scyther/Magmar/Primeape are just better picks for fastmons, and the all powerful STAB hyper beam niche is less valuable here due to a prominence of rocks and physically bulky mons like Muk/Weezing/Slowpoke/Parasect. Drowzee: -5 (#10 to #15) - The single largest numerical drop from VL to VR, Drowzee is in a slump to put it lightly. It has access to thunder wave, a sleep move, and STAB psychic which are all great, but its relatively low physical bulk paired with an inaccurate sleep move and low speed doesn't serve it well in ZU the way it does in PU. Almost everything in ZU outspeeds and 3hkos it, so getting a lot of tempo with hypnosis into twave is shaky at best. It does hit quite hard, and its the most offensively inclined of the double status mons for sure, but the lack of reactive defensive utility seems to have made submitters sour on it and gravitate more to Parasect and Butterfree for their consistency.With all that analysis done with, who's ready for all of it to immediately become irrelevant in a few days? WOOOO say goodbye to 3 of the best mons in the tier and say hello to a bunch of mediocre mons from PU that are about to crack ZU wide open. Looking forward to another great year of ZU gaming, and thanks to everyone who helped shape the meta this go around!
So this tier has shifted massively once again due to PU updates, and I think it's kinda in a weird spot right now.
Mons Leaving the Tier
Due to Arcanine and Fearow rising to NU and Rapidash's ban from PU, the "Fast 4" of RBY ZU have all risen to PU to fill in the power vacuum. This is a massive change to the tier, as these were really the only four good fast fully-evolved Pokemon. Magmar and Primeape were arguably the top 2 Pokemon, Scyther was close behind, and although Pidgeot was more niche it still had its place. This will overall slow the speed of the tier by a huge amount. This is very important to consider when factoring in the new drops, as outspeeding ZU's new threats may not be as easy as it initially seems.
The New Mons
ZU FINALLY HAS A FULLY-EVOLVED WATER-TYPE FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER. Kingler looks quite promising in this tier. Due to the fast 4 leaving, Kingler's speed is kinda decent? HOWEVER the mons that dropped alongside Kingler may give it trouble. Nidoqueen is literally one base speed higher and has Thunderbolt, while Pinsir hits it hard with Slash (tho it loses one-on-one). I feel Kingler will be a good mon at punishing teams that are too slow.
Out of the drops, vilegod is the only one which has been in ZU previously. Its best trait last time it was in ZU – the Primeape matchup – is no longer present in this tier. However, I think Vileplume is a much better sleeper than Parasect. Although it has to rely on Sleep Powder, it lacks a 4x fire weakness. Nidoqueen and Dragonair are probably forced to run fire blast in this tier to cover Pinsir, which really hurts Parasect. Vileplume probably fits the role of every sleep powder user ever in that it is good at landing sleep but ass outside of sleep.
Thunder Wave is a very rare and valuable move in ZU, so I think Wigglytuff's access to Thunder Wave automatically makes it worth using. It will likely function as a bulky glue mon that can force paralysis on something like Kingler or Pinsir to reverse the opponent's momentum. I also think it's hard for Machamp to fit Submission in this tier so maybe even that can't break tuff.
Machamp also seems like a glue Pokemon similar to Wigglytuff, with better offensive stats at the cost of utility moves. It probably needs Fire Blast for Pinsir, Earthquake for Nidoqueen, then two of slam/beam/submission? I think it's best to drop submission for slambeam but hitting wigglytuff might be useful.
First of the "big 2" in my opinion. After getting kicked out of PU by Nidoking, Nidoqueen seems very well-positioned here. Hard to outspeed due to the fast 4 leaving, and has the classic "impossible to switch into" Nido thing going on. Has to run fire blast to catch pinsir tho so less flexibility with moves.
The other of the "big 2" Very hard to outspeed and has SD + Hyperbeam. There is a chance that SD is a noobtrap and the optimal way to play pinsir is just spam Slash (extremely free click in this tier). If SD is good though then it will prob be super deadly since not much likes taking a +2 Hyperbeam in this tier, and has coverage to break rocks.
Potential Winners
Departure of fast 4 makes this guy fast, Nidoqueen displacing Sandslash as the ground makes Bok better as well as Super-effective Earthquake hits it a lot harder.
These two get buffed a lot. Magmar leaving the tier makes Flareon the only fully-evolved fire in the tier. If Pinsir turns out to be absurd, Ponyta is one of the few mons that outspeeds it and can fire blast it, so I think it will be very important assuming Pinsir is not banned.
Potential Losers
Being slower than Nidoqueen is ass and tuff also exists as a twaver now. Dragonair does have a speed advantage over Tuff and Agility so it definitely has a place, but I don't think it will be as universal as old ZU
Mostly outclassed by Nidoqueen now but has a better typing. However, not being EQ weak matches it up better vs. Machamp and Arbok compared to Nidoqueen, tho it doesn't improve the queen matchup due to Blizzard.
Nidoqueen and Dragonair and probably Machamp are all gonna run Fire Blast to deal with Pinsir so bad for Parasect, I think vilegod will be the superior sleeper.
Now that the tier has an actual fully-evolved water-type these mickeys are probably not as useful. Poke also competes with tuff as a slow bulky twave mon.
When your whole thing is walling scyther and pidgeot and those two are no longer legal LOL yeah this thing is going to SU
Mixed/Unsure
Omanyte was never a good Magmar check and it will be much better into Flareon/Ponyta, but Scyther and Pidgeot leaving the tier means it has less things to check. Forces Pinsir to respect it in builder by running Submission/Toss tho which is good. However, it gets eaten alive by Kingler.
These two can tank a boosted hyperbeam from pinsir and threaten it with fblast/boom which is pretty cool. However, they are ass into nidoqueen, flareon and machamp. They also don't threaten Vilegod nearly as much as they threatened parasect, so that's also not really good for them.
Four mons that outspeed poliwag and hit it hard are now gone, but Pinsir/Machamp are bulky and hit it hard, kingler doesnt take much damage, and Wigglytuff threatens twave. Its old checks are gone but new ones have taken its place.
Speculative VR
Mons Leaving the Tier
Due to Arcanine and Fearow rising to NU and Rapidash's ban from PU, the "Fast 4" of RBY ZU have all risen to PU to fill in the power vacuum. This is a massive change to the tier, as these were really the only four good fast fully-evolved Pokemon. Magmar and Primeape were arguably the top 2 Pokemon, Scyther was close behind, and although Pidgeot was more niche it still had its place. This will overall slow the speed of the tier by a huge amount. This is very important to consider when factoring in the new drops, as outspeeding ZU's new threats may not be as easy as it initially seems.
The New Mons
ZU FINALLY HAS A FULLY-EVOLVED WATER-TYPE FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER. Kingler looks quite promising in this tier. Due to the fast 4 leaving, Kingler's speed is kinda decent? HOWEVER the mons that dropped alongside Kingler may give it trouble. Nidoqueen is literally one base speed higher and has Thunderbolt, while Pinsir hits it hard with Slash (tho it loses one-on-one). I feel Kingler will be a good mon at punishing teams that are too slow.
Out of the drops, vilegod is the only one which has been in ZU previously. Its best trait last time it was in ZU – the Primeape matchup – is no longer present in this tier. However, I think Vileplume is a much better sleeper than Parasect. Although it has to rely on Sleep Powder, it lacks a 4x fire weakness. Nidoqueen and Dragonair are probably forced to run fire blast in this tier to cover Pinsir, which really hurts Parasect. Vileplume probably fits the role of every sleep powder user ever in that it is good at landing sleep but ass outside of sleep.
Thunder Wave is a very rare and valuable move in ZU, so I think Wigglytuff's access to Thunder Wave automatically makes it worth using. It will likely function as a bulky glue mon that can force paralysis on something like Kingler or Pinsir to reverse the opponent's momentum. I also think it's hard for Machamp to fit Submission in this tier so maybe even that can't break tuff.
Machamp also seems like a glue Pokemon similar to Wigglytuff, with better offensive stats at the cost of utility moves. It probably needs Fire Blast for Pinsir, Earthquake for Nidoqueen, then two of slam/beam/submission? I think it's best to drop submission for slambeam but hitting wigglytuff might be useful.
First of the "big 2" in my opinion. After getting kicked out of PU by Nidoking, Nidoqueen seems very well-positioned here. Hard to outspeed due to the fast 4 leaving, and has the classic "impossible to switch into" Nido thing going on. Has to run fire blast to catch pinsir tho so less flexibility with moves.
The other of the "big 2" Very hard to outspeed and has SD + Hyperbeam. There is a chance that SD is a noobtrap and the optimal way to play pinsir is just spam Slash (extremely free click in this tier). If SD is good though then it will prob be super deadly since not much likes taking a +2 Hyperbeam in this tier, and has coverage to break rocks.
Potential Winners
Departure of fast 4 makes this guy fast, Nidoqueen displacing Sandslash as the ground makes Bok better as well as Super-effective Earthquake hits it a lot harder.
These two get buffed a lot. Magmar leaving the tier makes Flareon the only fully-evolved fire in the tier. If Pinsir turns out to be absurd, Ponyta is one of the few mons that outspeeds it and can fire blast it, so I think it will be very important assuming Pinsir is not banned.
Potential Losers
Being slower than Nidoqueen is ass and tuff also exists as a twaver now. Dragonair does have a speed advantage over Tuff and Agility so it definitely has a place, but I don't think it will be as universal as old ZU
Mostly outclassed by Nidoqueen now but has a better typing. However, not being EQ weak matches it up better vs. Machamp and Arbok compared to Nidoqueen, tho it doesn't improve the queen matchup due to Blizzard.
Nidoqueen and Dragonair and probably Machamp are all gonna run Fire Blast to deal with Pinsir so bad for Parasect, I think vilegod will be the superior sleeper.
Now that the tier has an actual fully-evolved water-type these mickeys are probably not as useful. Poke also competes with tuff as a slow bulky twave mon.
When your whole thing is walling scyther and pidgeot and those two are no longer legal LOL yeah this thing is going to SU
Mixed/Unsure
Omanyte was never a good Magmar check and it will be much better into Flareon/Ponyta, but Scyther and Pidgeot leaving the tier means it has less things to check. Forces Pinsir to respect it in builder by running Submission/Toss tho which is good. However, it gets eaten alive by Kingler.
These two can tank a boosted hyperbeam from pinsir and threaten it with fblast/boom which is pretty cool. However, they are ass into nidoqueen, flareon and machamp. They also don't threaten Vilegod nearly as much as they threatened parasect, so that's also not really good for them.
Four mons that outspeed poliwag and hit it hard are now gone, but Pinsir/Machamp are bulky and hit it hard, kingler doesnt take much damage, and Wigglytuff threatens twave. Its old checks are gone but new ones have taken its place.
Speculative VR
FRAUDWATCH Charmeleon is awful in this tier and has nothing going for it since the Tier Shifts. Its entire niche in Old ZU revolved around the fact that it was a backup fire-type not walled by Omanyte. Now that Omanyte is less relavant, this thing is completely useless.
USE PONYTA INSTEADIf you want a second fire to support Flareon, Ponyta is a better choice. Its movepool is overall a bit worse but for the most part it doesn't really matter. Lack of Seismic Toss only means it does less damage to Kingler, and bad mons like Omanyte and Poliwag. No Slash sounds a lot worse, but Charmeleon's non-STAB Slash with only 65 base attack is still terrible. Charmeleon is slightly bulkier, but the only calc I think is really relavant is that Ponyta is always OHKOed by Nidoqueen's EQ, while Charm's is a roll.
It's not the movepool that makes Ponyta better tho, it's one stat in particular, 90 BASE SPEED.
Ponyta is faster than Pinsir, and threatens Fire Blast. This means that Ponyta has a reliable way to check Pinsir that doesn't have to rely on counter mindgames. Stomp lets Ponyta cheese past Nidoqueen and Machamp, which is definitely an improvement from Charmeleon.
In conclusion, Charmeleonsucks, Ponytais great.