It’s true that there’s no technical or even mathematical support for ranked FFA, but those are theoretically fixable problems. What really makes ranked FFA an impossibility is the moderation concerns. I have been told by an admin that “rated FFA would be hell on earth and we would never ever allow it”. Having played a lot of FFA rands through matchmaking, I can’t disagree.
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Generation 9 Free-For-All
- Thread starter Darvin
- Start date
This is an accurate overview of the council's position.
Toxic and Toxic Spikes were already in the discussion for a potential ban in generation 8, but the vote never happened due to council turnover and the end of generation. In generation 9 due to dexited moves we went ahead with the vote and banned it. We felt the result was strongly positive. Regular Poison and Burn have completely filled the void left by Toxic in a more balanced and healthy fashioned. Casual teams don't just auto-lose to Toxic stall, and serious teams have a lot more flexibility in composition. The people in our community, both the minority who play seriously and the majority who play casually, expressed that they felt this improved the format and made it more fun to play. For everybody.
We were aware of the potential problems with Fling when we held the Toxic vote. If you go back to our voting record, Fling was on the slate, and we voted no-ban at the time precisely because it was once-per-match. But things changed with the DLC's, as there are now Pokemon with access to Recycle + Fling and Harvest + Fling, and there were cases of people trolling and running these kinds of sets. Fling is banned precisely because it is not once per match. We do not do complex bans, and banning Fling was the lightest touch given the situation.
Sleep was actually voted on in generation 8, and only survived by a narrow 3-2 vote. If OU had banned Sleep last generation, I am certain it would have been axed in FFA as well. If FFA were created today, we would inherit our clauses from OU and DOU which would mean Sleep clause would not be standard. We'd either go with unrestricted Sleep or no Sleep, and between the two I think the vast majority of players would prefer the latter.
We are not and have never been an AG-based format. We started with the DOU banlist and worked from there. When I took over, my highest priority was addressing griefing moves and the community was behind me. These bans enjoyed broad support from all kinds of players, both those who wanted to play the format casually and those who wanted to do so seriously. You can come onto the Free-For-All Discord if you want to speak on these matters. Things like the Fling ban are discussed well ahead of the actual vote.
Here's a link to the post where we announced our ban of Hoopa-U.
Free-For-All is a slower metagame where most Pokemon do not run speed investment. Hoopa-U's 80 base speed is fast enough to outspeed the vast majority of the metagame without even running full investment, and offensively it can OHKO or 2HKO anything. What few defensive checks exist will be different depending on whether you're up against a physical, special, or mixed set. So you can't handle it offensively since most of your team is too slow, and you can't handle it defensively since you have to know its set just to check it (there are no counters). This means there just isn't good counterplay to Hoopa-Unbound, other than hoping it attacks somebody else. This is not a healthy dynamic. Even very powerful Pokemon like Zamazenta or Kyurem-Black aren't this oppressive, and they have good counterplay. Hoopa-Unbound doesn't.
It's also worth noting that Hoopa-Unbound was banned before Alomomola got Flip-Turn, which added incredible support to offensive builds that want to keep their wallbreakers healthy throughout the match. It would be even better now than it was when it was banned.
He is banned because of unmatched offensive power and lack of reliable counters etc.
im not sure if this is the right place to ask about this but due to the large amount of bans is there a possibility there could be a seperate challengeable format without as many restrictions? its really annoying to try to play casually with friends then learning everyone has a million illegal moves and pokemon we have to add to the challenge code
Hi, Ive played a ton of ffa and I was wondering if the mon pecharunt could be suspect tested, since its ability combined with poison gas makes for a deadly combo, with recover, and parting shot as defensive tools to make sure it never dies, combined with the fact that its really good with tera to shut down obvious weaknesses. This mon is essentially unkillable. Not to mention even if you do being mons that can in paper deal with it, it pairs really well with stall teams to ensure it can still stay to pass on more poison. I hope you consider this message.
While Pecharunt is annoying to deal with and its Poison Gas shenanigans must be respected, none of the council regards it as banworthy.
Pecharunt has 4 moveset syndrome, and can't run everything it wants on the same set. A set like you're describing with Poison Gas and Parting Shot means you don't have room for Nasty Plot, so Pecharunt will just be harmlessly walled by any specially defensive Poison or Steel-type. It's still a good set that exerts a lot of pressure, but it has good checks and counters that are easy to fit on a team.
Terastallization is a game-changing effect, to the extent it was suspected in OU and even banned in NatDex. It is exceedingly powerful, but it's also a 1/match effect. If you're using tera on Pecharunt, it's precisely because it's going to be massively beneficial. Defensive terastallization is normal in the generation 9 Free-For-All format and Pecharunt is not unusually oppressive as an abuser. We have banned a Pokemon before in part because Terastallization made countering it impractical, but Pecharunt is nowhere near the defensive behemoth that Dondozo was.
I'd recommend looking at our viability rankings and picking some good Pecharunt checks and counters from the list. Garganacl would be a solid selection, since it's immune to status and is largely impervious to anything Pecharunt can throw at it. If you don't want to play the meta, that's also fine; lots of people enjoy just bringing meme teams or their favorites to mess around. But we're not going to ban anything on the basis that people just don't want to use any of the meta Pokemon that counter it.
We also don't do suspect tests in FFA, as we do not have a proper ladder and never will. Instead we have a council of knowledgeable players who vote on these decisions. We also consult with the community in the Free-For-All Discord on major decisions (edit: the link is in the main post in this thread, and I'll cross-reference it here: https://discord.gg/UgWA9Uek94)
Pecharunt has 4 moveset syndrome, and can't run everything it wants on the same set. A set like you're describing with Poison Gas and Parting Shot means you don't have room for Nasty Plot, so Pecharunt will just be harmlessly walled by any specially defensive Poison or Steel-type. It's still a good set that exerts a lot of pressure, but it has good checks and counters that are easy to fit on a team.
Terastallization is a game-changing effect, to the extent it was suspected in OU and even banned in NatDex. It is exceedingly powerful, but it's also a 1/match effect. If you're using tera on Pecharunt, it's precisely because it's going to be massively beneficial. Defensive terastallization is normal in the generation 9 Free-For-All format and Pecharunt is not unusually oppressive as an abuser. We have banned a Pokemon before in part because Terastallization made countering it impractical, but Pecharunt is nowhere near the defensive behemoth that Dondozo was.
I'd recommend looking at our viability rankings and picking some good Pecharunt checks and counters from the list. Garganacl would be a solid selection, since it's immune to status and is largely impervious to anything Pecharunt can throw at it. If you don't want to play the meta, that's also fine; lots of people enjoy just bringing meme teams or their favorites to mess around. But we're not going to ban anything on the basis that people just don't want to use any of the meta Pokemon that counter it.
We also don't do suspect tests in FFA, as we do not have a proper ladder and never will. Instead we have a council of knowledgeable players who vote on these decisions. We also consult with the community in the Free-For-All Discord on major decisions (edit: the link is in the main post in this thread, and I'll cross-reference it here: https://discord.gg/UgWA9Uek94)
One final viability ranking update for Generation 9 Free-For-All:
Gliscor from A- to A: while its quadruple ice weakness is deeply problematic, and it can have troubles in a meta where every serious team is built to last hundreds of turns, Gliscor is still just an amazing anchor for any FFA team. It can set hazards, it can stallbreak with Taunt and Knock Off, it can setup with Swords Dance and become a terrifying menace, and can fit on a lot of team compositions that really want to have a Ground-type that isn't weak to opposing Ground-types.
Umbreon from A- to B: the Free-For-All metagame revolves heavily around the move Wish, both using it yourself to keep your team healthy and thwarting opponents from using it. Umbreon is a solid Wish user, but both Alomomola and Jirachi are better options in most circumstances. Given that it's more of a niche pick, we feel B rank is a better fit for Umbreon.
Roaring Moon to B rank. Most Dragon Dancers are outclassed due to Kyurem-Black being legal in the format, but Roaring Moon finds is niche in stallbreaking with Knock Off, Roost, and Taunt. It has four moveset syndrome, however, as it can only afford to run either Substitute or Dragon Dance and cannot fit any coverage. It can also use Jaw Lock to stop switching, although the fact that this is mutual can be a very big problem.
Moltres to C rank. Moltres is a fascinating defensive Fire-type, with some really good qualities and a lot of longevity. It offer a good check to a wide variety of threats, reliable recovery, and has some very useful move options including Will-o-Wisp, Roar, and Fire Spin for trapping. Pressure is a very good ability in Free-for-All, where PP stall comes up surprisingly often as a relevant strategy. However, Moltres faces fierce competition, most notably from Skeledrige which is the format's preeminent defensive Fire-type. However, as a niche alternative, Moltres earns a C rank.
Volcarona to C rank. In a format where almost every serious team carries a Blissey and an Unaware user (with Skeledirge being the most popular), Volcarona is an extremely inconsistent win condition despite its incredible power. We do feel it's powerful enough to merit a place on the viability rankings, alongside other powerful threats that must be respected but have significant consistency issues.
Gallade from C to unranked. Gallade is just too frail, slow, and unreliable to merit a place on our viability rankings. It is an enormous threat that must be respected, but as a serious choice for teammate it is utterly unreliable and inconsistent. There are significantly better choices if you want a destructive wallbreaker.
Breloom from C to unranked. Poison Heal is a fantastic ability, but Breloom simply doesn't have the bulk or typing to make it work. Its STAB combination is terrible, it can be PP stalled by many defensive walls, and it has 4 moveset syndrome so it can't even carry everything it needs.
Iron Moth from B to unranked. The big problem with Iron Moth is the lack of a usable single-target Poison STAB. Sludge Wave deals significantly less damage due to being multi-target, and this leaves Iron Moth very predictable and relatively easy to counter. Without Sludge Bomb to threaten poisoning, a lot of specially-defensive walls deal with it quite easily. While it is exceedingly powerful, it's just outclassed by better special attacking options that have usable secondary STAB's or other beneficial options.
Sylveon to unranked. Between Clefable and Scream Tail, Sylveon is simply outclassed by better options. In theory it can run a hybrid set that the others can't, but you have to stretch pretty far to find a case where you wouldn't be better off swapping it for one of the main fairies. We don't feel it can justify a spot in C rank.
And that's probably where the VR will be for the end of Gen 9. Given the rough start we had, the format has reached a pretty good place with some decent options and some flexibility in team-building. I would say I look forward to what the future holds, but I suspect it will be broken mega evolutions and volatile Z-moves. We'll cross those bridges when we come to them ;-)
Gliscor from A- to A: while its quadruple ice weakness is deeply problematic, and it can have troubles in a meta where every serious team is built to last hundreds of turns, Gliscor is still just an amazing anchor for any FFA team. It can set hazards, it can stallbreak with Taunt and Knock Off, it can setup with Swords Dance and become a terrifying menace, and can fit on a lot of team compositions that really want to have a Ground-type that isn't weak to opposing Ground-types. Umbreon from A- to B: the Free-For-All metagame revolves heavily around the move Wish, both using it yourself to keep your team healthy and thwarting opponents from using it. Umbreon is a solid Wish user, but both Alomomola and Jirachi are better options in most circumstances. Given that it's more of a niche pick, we feel B rank is a better fit for Umbreon. Roaring Moon to B rank. Most Dragon Dancers are outclassed due to Kyurem-Black being legal in the format, but Roaring Moon finds is niche in stallbreaking with Knock Off, Roost, and Taunt. It has four moveset syndrome, however, as it can only afford to run either Substitute or Dragon Dance and cannot fit any coverage. It can also use Jaw Lock to stop switching, although the fact that this is mutual can be a very big problem. Moltres to C rank. Moltres is a fascinating defensive Fire-type, with some really good qualities and a lot of longevity. It offer a good check to a wide variety of threats, reliable recovery, and has some very useful move options including Will-o-Wisp, Roar, and Fire Spin for trapping. Pressure is a very good ability in Free-for-All, where PP stall comes up surprisingly often as a relevant strategy. However, Moltres faces fierce competition, most notably from Skeledrige which is the format's preeminent defensive Fire-type. However, as a niche alternative, Moltres earns a C rank. Volcarona to C rank. In a format where almost every serious team carries a Blissey and an Unaware user (with Skeledirge being the most popular), Volcarona is an extremely inconsistent win condition despite its incredible power. We do feel it's powerful enough to merit a place on the viability rankings, alongside other powerful threats that must be respected but have significant consistency issues. Gallade from C to unranked. Gallade is just too frail, slow, and unreliable to merit a place on our viability rankings. It is an enormous threat that must be respected, but as a serious choice for teammate it is utterly unreliable and inconsistent. There are significantly better choices if you want a destructive wallbreaker. Breloom from C to unranked. Poison Heal is a fantastic ability, but Breloom simply doesn't have the bulk or typing to make it work. Its STAB combination is terrible, it can be PP stalled by many defensive walls, and it has 4 moveset syndrome so it can't even carry everything it needs. Iron Moth from B to unranked. The big problem with Iron Moth is the lack of a usable single-target Poison STAB. Sludge Wave deals significantly less damage due to being multi-target, and this leaves Iron Moth very predictable and relatively easy to counter. Without Sludge Bomb to threaten poisoning, a lot of specially-defensive walls deal with it quite easily. While it is exceedingly powerful, it's just outclassed by better special attacking options that have usable secondary STAB's or other beneficial options. Sylveon to unranked. Between Clefable and Scream Tail, Sylveon is simply outclassed by better options. In theory it can run a hybrid set that the others can't, but you have to stretch pretty far to find a case where you wouldn't be better off swapping it for one of the main fairies. We don't feel it can justify a spot in C rank.And that's probably where the VR will be for the end of Gen 9. Given the rough start we had, the format has reached a pretty good place with some decent options and some flexibility in team-building. I would say I look forward to what the future holds, but I suspect it will be broken mega evolutions and volatile Z-moves. We'll cross those bridges when we come to them ;-)