Metagame SV Camove Chaos (Dhelmise banned)

[Clas]

Survey Results!
Thanks to everyone that answered! Really helped get a general feel of how the community thinks about the meta.
Changes are announced here, so stay tuned!

(Avg. 8.11/10)

This is really high, which is a really good thing to hear as Camove TL. When we chose Camove as the first OMM Spotlight I was a bit worried it'd be hard to pick up, but seems like the playerbase has done just fine to actually enjoy it. It's also higher than our last survey, which is even better to hear!

(Avg. 6.57/10)
The competitivity of the tier has definitely been put into question, but I do think that's significantly altered by the challenges brought by picking up the tier for the first time. I have seen some very solid builds on ladder, but most people have stuck to very questionable HO builds and as such that probably hasn't helped much. Nevertheless, this is still lower than our last survey, dropping from 6.89 to 6.57, so that's something to improve on.

Sun is a bit of a weird one. With Mega Charizard Y and Heat Rock already banned, Sun is significantly challenged compared to other tiers on paper, but in practice it might be better than regular tiers thanks to the behemoth that is Roaring Moon alongside teammates like Raging Bolt, Leafeon, or Mega Houndoom (not "and" because you can't afford more than 2 sun-reliant attackers). The playerbase seems to be a bit split here, but overall there isn't much of a hate towards it and as such will not be looked at for a nerf.

Roserade, in comparison, is significantly more contentious. While not that flexible in typing, Roserade still demands significant respect both in the builder and ingame, with its flagship Water/Steel set being the hardest to answer due to its great 4th moveslot flexibility (Recover, Secret Sword, Psystrike, Knock Off, Strength Sap etc). As the playerbase is extremely split on Roserade, we will be voting on it.

Another extremely strong wallbreaker with priority, Rampardos isn't favored by much of the playerbase as broken, and that is probably in part due to its 4MSS. Rampardos can definitely tear through teams, whether offensive or defensive, but needs significant moveset investment to do so, and it seems the playerbase also agrees with this statement. We'll still keep an eye on it, but it won't be voted on this time around.

And lastly, the elephant in the room, Gigaton Hammer. This move is, to say the least, very strong. Basically any Pokemon can run it with at least a decent Attack stat, and we've seen many Pokemon use it to great success, with some succeeding more than others. Mabosstiff, Zeraora, Dhelmise, Mega Diancie, Blacephalon, Coalossal, and Rhyperior, to name a few. The playerbase generally agrees that Gigaton Hammer is too much, and as such we will be voting on it.

We also added a section for anything to be looked at, but surprisingly nothing got more than 1 mention ever, excluding Zera but council has agreed that Zeraora isn't banworthy at least 8 times over the past year and as such won't be looked at, plus Gigaton Hammer's vote helps address some of its high output. I do personally understand why some people would view Zeraora unfavorably, since it is the tier's most consistent offensive Pokemon and has been for years now, but it's answerable with the same amount of builder respect that other top-tier breakers like Tapu Lele and Scizor demand. I'm often on PS! and my DMs are open, but others in the OM Mashups room can also help with any qualms with how to answer certain threats.


Now, onto the votes. We first had Suspect results for both Pokemon, but due to oversights on my part and the fact we can only do one suspect at a time we chose to vote directly on Roserade as that was less divisive in council.​

	Clas	BandedBodyPress	TheTrueLtaker	The Hisui Region	splodge	Result
Roserade	DNB	DNB	Ban	Ban	Ban	3-2 Ban
Gigaton Hammer	Ban	Suspect	Suspect	Do Not Ban	Suspect	1-3-1 Suspect

As such, Roserade is banned while Gigaton Hammer is being suspect tested!​

Tagging dhelmise, thanks

 

[Styles2You@Showdown]

Survey Results!
Thanks to everyone that answered! Really helped get a general feel of how the community thinks about the meta.
Changes are announced here, so stay tuned!

View attachment 800201
(Avg. 8.11/10)

This is really high, which is a really good thing to hear as Camove TL. When we chose Camove as the first OMM Spotlight I was a bit worried it'd be hard to pick up, but seems like the playerbase has done just fine to actually enjoy it. It's also higher than our last survey, which is even better to hear!

View attachment 800202
(Avg. 6.57/10)
The competitivity of the tier has definitely been put into question, but I do think that's significantly altered by the challenges brought by picking up the tier for the first time. I have seen some very solid builds on ladder, but most people have stuck to very questionable HO builds and as such that probably hasn't helped much. Nevertheless, this is still lower than our last survey, dropping from 6.89 to 6.57, so that's something to improve on.

View attachment 800203

Sun is a bit of a weird one. With Mega Charizard Y and Heat Rock already banned, Sun is significantly challenged compared to other tiers on paper, but in practice it might be better than regular tiers thanks to the behemoth that is Roaring Moon alongside teammates like Raging Bolt, Leafeon, or Mega Houndoom (not "and" because you can't afford more than 2 sun-reliant attackers). The playerbase seems to be a bit split here, but overall there isn't much of a hate towards it and as such will not be looked at for a nerf.

View attachment 800204

Roserade, in comparison, is significantly more contentious. While not that flexible in typing, Roserade still demands significant respect both in the builder and ingame, with its flagship Water/Steel set being the hardest to answer due to its great 4th moveslot flexibility (Recover, Secret Sword, Psystrike, Knock Off, Strength Sap etc). As the playerbase is extremely split on Roserade, we will be voting on it.

View attachment 800205

Another extremely strong wallbreaker with priority, Rampardos isn't favored by much of the playerbase as broken, and that is probably in part due to its 4MSS. Rampardos can definitely tear through teams, whether offensive or defensive, but needs significant moveset investment to do so, and it seems the playerbase also agrees with this statement. We'll still keep an eye on it, but it won't be voted on this time around.

View attachment 800206

And lastly, the elephant in the room, Gigaton Hammer. This move is, to say the least, very strong. Basically any Pokemon can run it with at least a decent Attack stat, and we've seen many Pokemon use it to great success, with some succeeding more than others. Mabosstiff, Zeraora, Dhelmise, Mega Diancie, Blacephalon, Coalossal, and Rhyperior, to name a few. The playerbase generally agrees that Gigaton Hammer is too much, and as such we will be voting on it.

We also added a section for anything to be looked at, but surprisingly nothing got more than 1 mention ever, excluding Zera but council has agreed that Zeraora isn't banworthy at least 8 times over the past year and as such won't be looked at, plus Gigaton Hammer's vote helps address some of its high output. I do personally understand why some people would view Zeraora unfavorably, since it is the tier's most consistent offensive Pokemon and has been for years now, but it's answerable with the same amount of builder respect that other top-tier breakers like Tapu Lele and Scizor demand. I'm often on PS! and my DMs are open, but others in the OM Mashups room can also help with any qualms with how to answer certain threats.


Now, onto the votes. We first had Suspect results for both Pokemon, but due to oversights on my part and the fact we can only do one suspect at a time we chose to vote directly on Roserade as that was less divisive in council.​

	Clas	BandedBodyPress	TheTrueLtaker	The Hisui Region	splodge	Result
Roserade	DNB	DNB	Ban	Ban	Ban	3-2 Ban
Gigaton Hammer	Ban	Suspect	Suspect	Do Not Ban	Suspect	1-3-1 Suspect

As such, Roserade is banned while Gigaton Hammer is being suspect tested!​

Tagging dhelmise, thanks

STAB Metal Coat Steelworker Gigaton Hammer Dhelmise go run once more before your ankles get broken!

 

[Clas]

STAB Metal Coat Steelworker Gigaton Hammer Dhelmise go run once more before your ankles get broken!

It would definitely get banned if Gigaton survived, I can tell you now LOL

 

[The Mad Historian]

How does one go about participating in this suspect test?

 

[Clas]

How does one go about participating in this suspect test?

It'll be out later today

 

[The Mad Historian]

It'll be out later today

Thank you very much, kind person.

 

[The Hisui Region]

if you're planning to vote on gigaton hammer, please read this

before the gigaton suspect starts i want to reiterate some of my opinions that i have spoken out about before, and urge the camove playerbase to not ban gigaton hammer.
the move's biggest appeal is its bp of 160, but there are several good reasons why this move is a healthy presence in the metagame and why we should seek an alternative course of tiering action instead of just banning the move.
it's steel type. steel is one of the most awkward offensive types in this tier. water and steel are probably two of the best single defensive types, with electric being common as well. there are a lot of fantastic defensive water types, notably physically defensive water/ground and water/grass types, and a defensive steel is a necessity on most teams. electric is also a somewhat common defensive type, used mainly on poison/elec levitator and some specialized sets that want to deal with stuff like zeraora or rampardos. even fire/ground is used as a defensive type sometimes. fairy, rock, and ice are virtually zero use defensive types as they offer little to no real value in the metagame (although fairy would probably be used a bit more if not for gigaton). there will always be something that resists gigaton hammer on the other side. if there isn't, the other team is likely not well-built/straight up bad (not directly because of gigaton hammer, but having no gigaton resist on a team implies a lack of a steel type which is an issue due to other factors like steel's good defensive profile and the need for a mortal spin immunity).
it's steel type. yeah it's also really the only good steel move, there are other semi viable options to run on defensive guys but they are usually never clicked and never do anything when clicked. basically a dead moveslot discounting the typing. if gigaton is banned people will be forced to run passive and unviable moves on defensive mons and significantly lowering the viability of ultra-consistent defensive steel types like coalossal and rhyperior. this would make it much harder to build consistent teams, as alternatives to these steels are more susceptible to random type combos/don't cover as much defensively and these steels are much less consistent and bad vs a lot of team structures if they can't run gigaton. it's not like gigaton is a super broken offensive force on defensive guys either; gigaton off of coalossal is about the same as tinkaton.
every other turn. this might not seem like too big of a drawback, but there's a pretty obvious mechanic that makes it meaningful. choice items lmao you cant realistically run gigaton on a good band/scarf set which is huge in differentiating it from other moves and is a pretty simple but often overlooked downside to the move. mabosstiff runs band gigaton and gets away with it but that's because it just ohkos everything and it's broken as hell ive been sayin that for almost 2 years now
we all hate dhelmise, right? i know i do. this guy gets a 1.5x boost on stab gigaton with a 131 attack stat and can run bullet punch for priority. it's ridiculously strong and oppressive and by far the most egregious abuser of gigaton, claiming a kill vs most teams almost every time it comes in and being able to finish off games with +2 bullet punches. it's one of two real examples of gigaton being actually broken, with the other example being mabosstiff who's complete dead weight against a lot of offensive structures frequented by ladder.

please keep gigaton alive so we can ban dhelmise later. if your teams are consistently losing to any gigaton hammer users, that's the fault of your team. it's the equivalent of bringing 6 special attackers in ou and then saying "ban blissey" after losing to stall. i'm always right yk

thank you if you read the whole thing <3

 

[Clas]

holy waffle and not even the right thread for it...

 

[The Mad Historian]

Having played the tier for a bit now, although I by no means consider myself an expert and am open to being corrected, I have some opinions, which I hop this is the right place to share, divided in to two parts:
Part 1: Gigaton Hammer-is it truly that broken?

In my experience Gigaton hammer has been an extremely useful tool in the builder and in many battles. So far, I don't think that Gigaton Hammer itself is banworthy, although it is a very powerful move. On fast mons it's a very useful revenge kill button, something that I've found you need at least 2 or 3 of on your team since this is a tier full of fast, powerful offensive mons that could be anything with any typing and wildly varying bulk, so having a way to revenge kill them reliably, sometimes through boosted or absurdly high defenses, is invaluable and Gigaton hammer can accomplish that. On slower mons, it's an excellent wallbreaking tool, if timed correctly-whiffing a Gigaton hammer into any of its many resists is an awful feeling. It's even useful on utility mons that don't invest much in their attacks, since it doesn't require much investment to hit frailer mons pretty hard.

All that said, it's surprisingly difficult to use thanks to the one-turn rule. Sure, Gigaton Hammer 2HKOs the Stakataka/ferrothorn/other wall in front of you, but do any other moves on your mon do enough damage to finish it the next turn? If not, you're never breaking it outside of a Gigaton crit because it will just recover, often while dropping your attack, and you're wasting its 8pp by clicking it into them. Clicking it at the wrong time into an offensive team can be even worse, giving free positioning without the threat of a nuclear Gigaton.

Now of course, there's the Anchor-shaped elephant in the room: Dhelmise. The only things that can reliably stand up to it are either bulky resists or 4x resists, and many of those can be finished off by Bullet Punch after 1 Gigaton. Whether it goes for Bitter Blade or some other move to get its secondary type, Dhelmise is always a menace thanks to the hammer-punch combo, and I don't think that banning Gigaton would make it better. Sunsteel Strike, Behemoth Blade, and even Meteor Mash would still net ridiculous damage, and it could hit you with those twice in a row. I think Dhelmise is broken with Gigaton, but I don't think Gigaton itself is, especially since it's one of the only remotely reliable tools that can so much as slow down(by preventing them from ever getting started) the users of the two moves I have quickly developed a major issue with, and believe that they impose an immoderate amount of pressure in both the teambuilder and play, leading me to part 2 (which I exppect to be more controversial) of this very long-winded post:


Part 2: Spectral Thief and Strength Sap-(AM Copypasta)


Addressed in order: Spectral Thief is broken as all get out, being so easily spammed on any mon, whether or not they are a physical attacker or a ghost-type, that setting up often feels pointless, since unless you are either a normal type(which is not a very good type otherwise) or can outspeed and oneshot every single mon, your boosts will just be stolen and the effort to get them will have been either pointless or of aid only to your opponent. It is so common that it feels like any aspiring setup sweeper just has to deal with being a normal type or accept that setting up is more likely to benefit your opponent than you, unless setting up just once allows you to sweep the entire meta as outlined above(which would, needless to say, not be healthy in the least). This move also makes having multiple priority users straight-up mandatory on any offensive team, since that's the only way to have a prayer of counterplay vs. Spectral Thief.

Strength Sap is not as common as Spectral Thief, but it feels possibly even more broken for very similar reasons, specifically that it not only nullifies any attempt to prep or position a physical attacker to break a wall or get a revenge kill or make any progress, it makes it so that the effort you spent doing that becomes an active detriment to you in by healing your opponent far more than any other healing move, usually back to full, while also, unlike spectral thief, being able to cut your attack to Wurmple levels. It, more than any other move I've encountered, is genuinely impossible to switch into or punish in any way because it's all but impossible to present a realistic threat the strength sap user can't heal off immediately, while also crippling you. You can't even punish it with poison point/flame body/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/rocky helmet because it doesn't make contact. Maybe if it was restricted to the mons that can learn it naturally it would be fine, or if you could punish it with Ferrothorn or Garchomp, or if you could set up a substitute and block it, or if anything good was immune to it, but none of that is the case.

All in all, Strength Sap and Spectral Thief exert an inordinate amount of pressure in the teambuilder of an otherwise very fun and creative tier, having very little counterplay, and limiting or even entirely nullifying the potential for offensive mons to use setup and status moves for fear of giving the opponent the time and space to position themselves to not only nullify your efforts, but cause them to become active hindrances. Gigaton Hammer is far splashier and has the potential for really big numbers, but Spectral Thief and Strength Sap are far more game-warping, noticeably reduce the element of skill and competition in the game, and carry far less counterplay, and so I would far rather see them up for a ban than Gigaton Hammer.

But that's just my 2 cents, I'd love to hear the opinions of others. Thank you for your time.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Addressed in order: Spectral Thief is broken as all get out, being so easily spammed on any mon, whether or not they are a physical attacker or a ghost-type, that setting up often feels pointless, since unless you are either a normal type(which is not a very good type otherwise) or can outspeed and oneshot every single mon, your boosts will just be stolen and the effort to get them will have been either pointless or of aid only to your opponent. It is so common that it feels like any aspiring setup sweeper just has to deal with being a normal type or accept that setting up is more likely to benefit your opponent than you, unless setting up just once allows you to sweep the entire meta as outlined above(which would, needless to say, not be healthy in the least). This move also makes having multiple priority users straight-up mandatory on any offensive team, since that's the only way to have a prayer of counterplay vs. Spectral Thief.

Strength Sap is not as common as Spectral Thief, but it feels possibly even more broken for very similar reasons, specifically that it not only nullifies any attempt to prep or position a physical attacker to break a wall or get a revenge kill or make any progress, it makes it so that the effort you spent doing that becomes an active detriment to you in by healing your opponent far more than any other healing move, usually back to full, while also, unlike spectral thief, being able to cut your attack to Wurmple levels. It, more than any other move I've encountered, is genuinely impossible to switch into or punish in any way because it's all but impossible to present a realistic threat the strength sap user can't heal off immediately, while also crippling you. You can't even punish it with poison point/flame body/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/rocky helmet because it doesn't make contact. Maybe if it was restricted to the mons that can learn it naturally it would be fine, or if you could punish it with Ferrothorn or Garchomp, or if you could set up a substitute and block it, or if anything good was immune to it, but none of that is the case.

All in all, Strength Sap and Spectral Thief exert an inordinate amount of pressure in the teambuilder of an otherwise very fun and creative tier, having very little counterplay, and limiting or even entirely nullifying the potential for offensive mons to use setup and status moves for fear of giving the opponent the time and space to position themselves to not only nullify your efforts, but cause them to become active hindrances. Gigaton Hammer is far splashier and has the potential for really big numbers, but Spectral Thief and Strength Sap are far more game-warping, noticeably reduce the element of skill and competition in the game, and carry far less counterplay, and so I would far rather see them up for a ban than Gigaton Hammer.

But that's just my 2 cents, I'd love to hear the opinions of others. Thank you for your time.

Not going to chime in on Gigaton Hammer or Strength Sap, but I do agree with The Mad Historian on Spectral Thief. ST exerts a ton of pressure in the teambuilding, leading to all sorts of mons randomly running normal as their secondary type to bypass it. I've seen Normal/flying Gholdengo, Normal/Steel Dhelmise etc. The lengths people go to in order to bypass ST is to me an indicating of its unhealthy presence in the tier.

In particular, I'm quite tired of phasing the combination of regenvest Glowking and Hydrapple, paired with Cresselia or Rhyperior, all with spectral thief. It's very difficult to power through all of them due to high bulk and lack of exploitable weaknesses, especially when they also run strength sap. The metagame is overall healthy, but the most successful teams I've faced are all the same combination of bulky balance fatasses with 3-4 spectral thief users.

I suspect the counter argument will be that this will make setup too strong. While banning ST will obviously make setup stronger, there are still options (Haze, Topsy-Turvy, Dragon tail, Unaware etc.) that can take their place without being so oppressive. But mainly I think a buff to offense is warrented at this point, the metagame is a little too fat for my taste.

 

[Akira]

Spectral thief is more or less the main thing holding the tier together lol. Setup threats are crazy good and even the cost of running a normal type is so-so when you consider how good substitute Archaludon was for instance.
I personally think the substitute ban was a mistake, and Arch should have been banned, but the main case for that was that the requirement to run normal type on slow setup breakers made them manageable enough and identifiable on preview.
If spectral wasn't in the tier, all answers to bulky setup would become passive moves like Haze and Dtail that lose you momentum and unless you resist the setup breaker, they can just break through you anyway by getting a couple turns right. Fast setup isn't really going to struggle with SThief if supported correctly because you can just kill them, and if you can't kill them then that's on you for not chipping down the checks to your setup guys.
The tier lets you run absurd defensive typings and setup moves on anyone, so if we didn't have this near blanket momentum reversal tool, it'd be way too easy to run like, setup steel fairy RM + setup ghost fighting bundle + tsong abuser etc etc and just beat most of the counterplay by having phazing immunities, moldy moves like moongeist, and tools like tsong or taunt to just beat passive setup answers, meaning that even if they have tools for most of your breakers one or two will slip through.

That said prank encore's pretty broken people gotta run that more.

 

[TheTrueLtaker]

To the ppl who want st banned please tell me how do you defensively answer this

AnyGuy @ Covert Cloak
- Moonlight/Magical Torque/Moonblast
- Any Move
- Taunt
- Any Set up Move

unawares don't even work well here because with taunt they just die without ever healing

 

[The Mad Historian]

To the ppl who want st banned please tell me how do you defensively answer this

AnyGuy @ Covert Cloak
- Moonlight/Magical Torque/Moonblast
- Any Move
- Taunt
- Any Set up Move

unawares don't even work well here because with taunt they just die without ever healing

A mental herb/oblivious/aroma veil/magic bounce/prankster mon with Haze, whirlwind, circle throw, red card, topsy turvy, clear smog, disable, fast/prankster taunt, or priority attacks. You can pick and choose a few things from this list to be immune to or otherwise stop, but never all of them. (No, covert cloak does not stop circle throw from phazing you or Clear Smog from resetting your stats).

 

[TheTrueLtaker]

A mental herb/oblivious/aroma veil/magic bounce/prankster mon with Haze, whirlwind, circle throw, red card, topsy turvy, clear smog, disable, fast/prankster taunt, or priority attacks. You can pick and choose a few things from this list to be immune to or otherwise stop, but never all of them. (No, covert cloak does not stop circle throw from phazing you or Clear Smog from resetting your stats).

So you either have to run an item to deal with a specific set or run niche guys minus the Prankster that's basically the only real answer here and even then if the second typing is dark it can just not care (tho most pranksters run Gigaton so unless it can kill its a decent answer) will admit I forgot about clear smog but that doesn't answer if this guy is steel which it can be since it has a decent amount of move freedom. But with just one type and 2 move slots you have a guy who can pick and choose it's answers for it. And it doesn't help that this could be literally any fairy type because unlike normals it isn't gonna be obvious if the fairy is a setup sweeper or not. Spectral Thief is a necessary evil for this format and without it the meta would be in a much worse position.

 

[TheTrueLtaker]

ST exerts a ton of pressure in the teambuilding, leading to all sorts of mons randomly running normal as their secondary type to bypass it. I've seen Normal/flying Gholdengo, Normal/Steel Dhelmise etc. The lengths people go to in order to bypass ST is to me an indicating of its unhealthy presence in the tier.

I don't think you truly understand why these people run normal. Its not because these pokemon are forced to do so because theres no other way around ST but because these pokemon are trying to instantly remove the option of defensive counterplay. If the most popular anti setup was dtail, fairy setup mons would appear even more trying to beat the common set up answers.

 

[aerobee]

Something that usually gets overlooked in any-type metagames is that restriction of viable bulky setup typings is often good if you aim to maximize playing skill expression. It's true that "bulky" setup has to contend with phasing/Haze/Clear Smog/Topsy-Turvy/Heart Swap/Foul Play/Imposter/Strength Sap/conventional attacks/residual damage/opposing bulky setup/defensive typings in general in addition to Spectral Thief, but no longer needing to be Normal-type for such sets would make proactive counterplay significantly less consistent, since two customizable types means combinations like Knock Off + Mortal Spin (+ Lava Plume, Spirit Break, Thunder Cage etc.) would get more easily blanked and offensive counterplay would have a significantly harder time hitting nearly all realistic dual-type combinations hard enough to threaten them. Even if you suppose that 1 attacker sometimes being walled is fine, 2-attacker cores that get shafted due to matchup would realistically happen unless you shoot yourself in the foot by making neither of them setup mons.

However, the worse effect is how much stronger setup mons, particularly physical ones, would be relative to defensive checks. Spectral Thief being a 90BP Ghost move means defensive mons can sometimes dissuade physical setup by threatening to KO them outright, which is healthy because 1) gamestates are complicated for both sides, raising the skill ceiling in a metagame where gamestates are forced into being unreasonably simple in the first place and 2) running good defensive typings (ex. Ghost/Dark and Ghost/Steel, sometimes Ghost/Normal or Ghost/Fairy) without a sacrificial moveslot is much easier. I haven't laddered at all so I don't know how that side of things is like but imo attackers already have the clear upper hand in balance wars (setup attackers breaking through defensive checks is so much easier than the reverse, thanks to the current philosophy on balancing and the limited pool of anti-setup attacks) so greater variation of defensive types and proactivity of switch-ins seems like an overall positive to me. In addition to decreasing matchup fishiness, Spectral also considerably nerfs HO which decreases the chance of matchups where playing skill doesn't as meaningfully contribute to the outcome.

Strength Sap is kinda cancer though, if I still played I wouldn't mind it going provided the physical power level were reduced in kind.

 

[The Mad Historian]

So you either have to run an item to deal with a specific set or run niche guys minus the Prankster that's basically the only real answer here and even then if the second typing is dark it can just not care (tho most pranksters run Gigaton so unless it can kill its a decent answer) will admit I forgot about clear smog but that doesn't answer if this guy is steel which it can be since it has a decent amount of move freedom. But with just one type and 2 move slots you have a guy who can pick and choose it's answers for it. And it doesn't help that this could be literally any fairy type because unlike normals it isn't gonna be obvious if the fairy is a setup sweeper or not. Spectral Thief is a necessary evil for this format and without it the meta would be in a much worse position.

Spectral Thief is not a necessary evil, it's just evil. It's a broken move with no good, consistent counterplay that contributes to ruining an otherwise fun tier. And even with ST gone, in the actual battle, the set you outlined will, versus any bulky mon that it can't just OHKO(which, if it has setup to where it can OHKO its way through the bulky team, that is fully a skill issue on the part of the bulky team's pilot for letting it get that set up in the first place) face a similar problem to the difficulties I outlined with actually using Gigaton Hammer: Sure, it's theoretically able to get past the wall using the tools it has to hand, but there are enough options for counterplay that, in practice, every turn is 50/50 where the best option is remaining in the same positon and a single misplay or incorrect moveset guess spells disaster. If you taunt on a mental herb+haze/whirlwind/Topsy Turvy/Heart Swap mon(thus making it a great knock absorber for the future, by the way) or a switch into a Magic Bounce mon, or a Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, or Clear Smog(which you cannot be immune to all 3 of), you lose since after your initial turns, even bulky teams still exert enough pressure that setting up is a dangerous endeavor. If you assume they have taunt counterplay and just go for the attack, you could get hit with a Red card as they recover or set hazards or set up a wish to pass, or they live the hit because of course they do, and then they phaze you or Heart Swap you or otherwise unset you up anyways, then if you try and re-set up, they'll Toxic you or Magma Storm you or Ghost Curse you or hit you with a surprise Destiny Bond. Switching out also just leaves them a free turn to do whatever they want, whether that be pivot once more, set hazards, status your switch-in, or whatever else they desire. In short, all the power is in the hands of the bulky mon, not the setup sweeper. Oh, and if an offensive mon comes in on your setup mon, just assume that, unless you outspeed it and have priority, you're dying to priority.

In short, banning spectral thief still leaves a wide variety of counterplay to setup for both offensive and defensive teams, although such counterplay would now require actual skill, while at the same time, making setup feel like an actual benefit to you rather than an active hindrance.

 

[Clas]

Spectral Thief won't be on the chopping block, and won't be ever. The fact that some Pokemon run the Normal-type to counter it isn't a major disadvantage but still keeps the SpecThief users in check without being overwhelming, nor does it suggest that the move is broken. Setup users still exist and generally break through over time or just instantly if your name is Mega Pinsir, but this does help keep brainless, poorly built HO teams in check that would get 6-0d by Ditto anyway.

The way to view Spectral Thief is the same as Dragon Tail and Storm Throw, i.e. they're moves that punish setup but can be prepped for with a specific typing; SpecThief just doesn't lose insane amount of momentum for non-Regen users. Fun fact, Roaring Moon has a set that exploits this to great effect, with it using a Ghost/Fairy typing and the set of SpecThief/MTorque/SD/Imprison and a Booster Energy for Speed, and this is a very good setup sweeper on screens HO, hazstack HO, and just general offensive teams that give RMoon the freedom to set up. It does still fear Foul Play and strong physical attackers. This isn't an example of SpecThief being broken, but rather the opposite - a move that forces offensive teams to adapt to its presence in order to help progress meta development.

Without SpecThief, it would be near-impossible to keep offense in check without relying on your own offensive pressure (like how my standard Water/Ground Regirock does and the standard Galarian Slowking set does) or via Regenerator users that have high natural offensive stats alongside a phazing move like Dragon Tail (such as Hydrapple). Outside of this, your best bet is to just run stall teams with hyperfat Pokemon like Chansey, Rhydon, and Gliscor, all of which can afford the cost of Topsy-Turvy since these teams will probably just win before you do, with or without SpecThief.

I do understand the high skill floor the meta has and the frustrations that come with it, and once deemed Spectral Thief incredibly broken when I was first beginning to improve back in 2020 and early 2021, but it's just a setup punish tool and nothing more. There's still the cost of running it, Choice Band/Specs and Life Orb users can still very much break through walls without too much hassle if not played in a self-debilitating way, and there's not a lack of counterplay either.

For those running HO, I'd personally suggest running a Pokemon designed to wallbreak like Zeraora, Choice Band + Trick Scizor, or Secret Sword Torch Song Mega Gardevoir. Just keep Imposter, stall, Tapu Bulu + Lele, and anti-setup in mind and you should be fine. Feel free to ask for help if necessary, whether that's via Discord, Smogon, or in the OM or OM Mashups rooms on Showdown.

In unrelated news, the Gigaton Hammer suspect should be out later tonight; I'm personally staying up in order to guarantee it.

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

Hey out of curiosity what are the thoughts on Spectral Thief? Imo it's reallly broken, as it can be used by literally any pokemon, regardless of whatever stats they have, to hugely punish any set up sweeper, and as someone who is a HO enthusiast, this is a pain in the ass. Seriously, a move that can ruin multiple turns of progress and give yourself the same valuable progress while also being able to attack WITH THAT PROGRESS drives me up a freaking wall. Maybe its a skill issue, I'm still getting used to the meta but (Personally), banning Spectral Thief would actually allow stallbreakers to do something without a random blissey walling something that otherwise could've broken it. It slows down progress on stall, and on HO it lets you copy the other teams homework then set the original one on fire. Please ban it, I hate that move.

I posted this opinion of ST a while ago, and I'm glad that other people can see what I mean, even if I'm not THAT good at the metagame. There is probably a reason gamefreak locked the move behind a mon that went to Ubers in singles (so it doesn't disturb OU, and has to compete with literal divine beings), and made that mon mythical so it would basically never see the light of day in VGC. While there are other factors in marshadows ban, giving it's frankly broken signature move to everything is really unfair for breakers- stall monst having a way to stop set up and nuke stuff with the same set up while they just twiddle their thumbs and tanks hits, only to probably recover and stop any future set up is self-explanitorally broken. It punishes stuff like Set-up Z-moves way too heavily, SUZMs usually being balanced by requiring a full turn (usually, I'm looking at you C-soulblaze) while the opponent can do basically anything, so it's really annoying when an ST user just yoinks your really cool HO once-per-battle boost that you spent an entire turn setting up only for your efforts and time to be in vain.
While I can see the argument for "Oh but it stops HO teams from steamrolling everything" it stops them too well. Most counterplay requires stopping some of your momentum, either using a really weak attack (like Clear Smog), having negative priority (like D-tail/Circle Throw) or being completely passive (Such as haze). By comparison ST has good BP, 100% accuracy, a great offensive typing when paired with fighting/fairy, with that typing also having two immunities that give it good defensive synergy with normal. It literally has no drawback besides normal types stopping it, but as long as you have ANY COVERAGE you can hit normal types.
As TheMadHistorian put it,

Spectral Thief is not a necessary evil, it's just evil.

 

[Clas]

I'm not going to focus on the SpecThief subject anymore, but I want to address something very quickly

Oh but it stops HO teams from steamrolling everything" it stops them too well.

SpecThief does not stop HO teams one bit if they are even decently well-made. Bad HO teams will try to just set up and sweep on the spot without actually thinking about how that would help develop the board state. Good HO teams are built around developing the board state as quickly as possible in a favorable position, whether or not that's using setup. This is why Mega Pinsir is great on HO for example; it basically guarantees that the HO player develops the position in a favorable way thanks to Aerilate Explosion being near-enough impossible to answer (I think only Steel/Flying Rhyperior and Eviolite Rhydon answers it, but the latter gets knocked off and both are removed by coverage machine mons like SFLO Kleavor and Scarf 4A Haxorus).

To paint a better picture, think of your typical HO team on ladder. It's got 4 setup sweepers, a lead like Thundurus or Deoxys-Speed, and then some random 6th mon. Good HO teams aren't built like this - instead, they'll have one Pokemon that helps the team stay grounded, maybe 2 or 3 setup Pokemon, and then 2 Pokemon geared purely towards progressing the board state. I've made only one HO team that follows the "bad HO" guideline, but even that does not simply gear around setting up one Pokemon and sweeping; instead, there's a bunch of Pokemon that simply just try to overwhelm one or two specific targets or walls, such as with Mega Pinsir + Kingambit or Zeraora + Iron Bundle. Nothing here is trying to outright sweep instantly. Nothing here minds being hit by Spectral Thief, exluding Gholdengo (which isn't even going to be around to be hit by that most likely) and Mega Pinsir (who is going to go boom before that even happens). And even with all this said, this is maybe a 7/10 team at best, because it loses to Ditto effectively on the spot, as well as it being very reliant on having strong awareness of the whole board state. The best HO builder right now is probably Akira since she takes this philosophy to heart with her HO builds - one of said HO teams is even a sample, even if at a first glance it doesn't look like it would be.

Double Webs Offense by Akira

All of this is to say, stop thinking linearly with your HO teams. Setup isn't the only way to make progress - choice items, coverage breakers, Knock Off, Sap Sipper via Hisuian Goodra, overpowering STAB breakers like Rampardos, Tapu Bulu, Dhelmise/Perrserker (future-proofing in case Gigaton survives, don't run Perrserker right now), and Mega Gardevoir, Explosion users like Mega Pinsir and Conkeldurr, and more are right there and are all incredibly good on HO, but setup is just the first thing people focus and hyperfixate on because it's how modern HO is built in standard tiers nowadays. This ORAS HO guide made years ago is a great explanation on how HO in Camove, even if not meant for Camove, is best built for the average player without being overly technical. It also includes a very easy-to-understand template that still works over 10 years later in a non-standard format.

I'd be happy to help a proper building guide for offense (and HO by extension) if there's enough interest in it, especially since there's clearly a lot of confusion if ladder is to suggest anything.

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

I'm not going to focus on the SpecThief subject anymore, but I want to address something very quickly

SpecThief does not stop HO teams one bit if they are even decently well-made. Bad HO teams will try to just set up and sweep on the spot without actually thinking about how that would help develop the board state. Good HO teams are built around developing the board state as quickly as possible in a favorable position, whether or not that's using setup. This is why Mega Pinsir is great on HO for example; it basically guarantees that the HO player develops the position in a favorable way thanks to Aerilate Explosion being near-enough impossible to answer (I think only Steel/Flying Rhyperior and Eviolite Rhydon answers it, but the latter gets knocked off and both are removed by coverage machine mons like SFLO Kleavor and Scarf 4A Haxorus).

To paint a better picture, think of your typical HO team on ladder. It's got 4 setup sweepers, a lead like Thundurus or Deoxys-Speed, and then some random 6th mon. Good HO teams aren't built like this - instead, they'll have one Pokemon that helps the team grounded, maybe 2 or 3 setup Pokemon, and then 2 Pokemon geared purely towards progressing the board state. I've made only one HO team that follows the "bad HO" guideline, but even that does not simply gear around setting up one Pokemon and sweeping; instead, there's a bunch of Pokemon that simply just try to overwhelm one or two specific targets or walls, such as with Mega Pinsir + Kingambit or Zeraora + Iron Bundle. Nothing here is trying to outright sweep instantly. Nothing here minds being hit by Spectral Thief, exluding Gholdengo (which isn't even going to be around to be hit by that most likely) and Mega Pinsir (who is going to go boom before that even happens). And even with all this said, this is maybe a 7/10 team at best, because it loses to Ditto effectively on the spot, as well as it being very reliant on having strong awareness of the whole board state. The best HO builder right now is probably Akira since she takes this philosophy to heart with her HO builds - one of said HO teams is even a sample, even if at a first glance it doesn't look like it would be.


All of this is to say, stop thinking linearly with your HO teams. Setup isn't the only way to make progress - choice items, coverage breakers, Knock Off, Sap Sipper via Hisuian Goodra, overpowering STAB breakers like Rampardos, Tapu Bulu, Dhelmise/Perrserker (future-proofing in case Gigaton survives, don't run Perrserker right now), and Mega Gardevoir, Explosion users like Mega Pinsir and Conkeldurr, and more are right there and are all incredibly good on HO, but setup is just the first thing people focus and hyperfixate on because it's how modern HO is built in standard tiers nowadays. This ORAS HO guide made years ago is a great explanation on how HO in Camove, even if not meant for Camove, is best built for the average player without being overly technical. It also includes a very easy-to-understand template that still works over 10 years later in a non-standard format.

I'd be happy to help a proper building guide for offense (and HO by extension) if there's enough interest in it, especially since there's clearly a lot of confusion if ladder is to suggest anything.

This is probably the politest way someone has told me "Git gud at making teams" and tbh I understand what you're saying; the best team I think I've ever made was an OU Hazard-stack Balance team, and that felt really fun to play because I had a mixture of nukes and tanks that synergized pretty well. While some of my HO teams do work, as I said, I'm not amazing at pokemon, so my opinion shouldn't be taken too seriously- I consider myself pretty mid, better then ppl who haven't played pokemon but not always the best on the ladder.

 

[Clas]

This is probably the politest way someone has told me "Git gud at making teams" and tbh I understand what you're saying; the best team I think I've ever made was an OU Hazard-stack Balance team, and that felt really fun to play because I had a mixture of nukes and tanks that synergized pretty well. While some of my HO teams do work, as I said, I'm not amazing at pokemon, so my opinion shouldn't be taken too seriously- I consider myself pretty mid, better then ppl who haven't played pokemon but not always the best on the ladder.

To be honest all I want to do is help people succeed. These takes come from a lack of metagame knowledge, and I know just how hard it is to get used to mashups in general, let alone Camove's insane skill floor. The increased number of options often overwhelms people and if you don't know what you're doing it becomes very difficult to figure out what to do. Even at a top level, we're figuring out what's good and not still - Roserade, Rampardos, mixed Mega Gardevoir, and Dhelmise are/were only recent innovations, for example.

 

[Clas]

Gigaton Hammer suspect test is live!

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

Forgot/didn't realize this had a thread, neat.

Few cool things/something I want to agree with from earlier this thread.

Strength Sap is kinda cancer though, if I still played I wouldn't mind it going provided the physical power level were reduced in kind.

Strength Sap is evil and is a major part of why I detest going against fat teams, I'm aware its very much a skill issue on my part with some of my teambuilding, but it just feels like hell to get to +2, click Pyro Ball, lose an attack stage to Strength Sap, then when you SD again immediately lose your boosts to a Spectral Thief. Spectral is annoying but its fun to build around/play against if you know what you're doing, the brainless Webs teams are a mild annoyance, but Strength Sap just sucks the joy out of trying to fight walls.



Few of my favorite idiots from playing 200 games so far:

Gholdengo

Kellogg's (Gholdengo) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sketch
- Oblivion Wing
- Torch Song
- Jungle Healing

As someone alluded to above, Normal/Flying Dengo solves a lot of problems in a single slot, from blocking Spectral with Normal typing, aggressive healing via Oblivion Wing, Torch Song to up SpAtk without needing a moveslot for Nasty Plot, and Jungle Healing to remove status and provide a bit of healing. It's incredibly consistent into fat teams that can't immediately threaten a +1 Gholdengo, but it gets pretty hard walled by non-Bug or Grass variants of Steel Coalossal and the occasional Electric type. Z-Sketch is the move of choice because it both doesn't provide a type to the opponent and can occasionally copy useful moves.

Blastoise-Mega, aka Steve Harvey

Steve Harvey (Blastoise-Mega) @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Matcha Gotcha / Giga Drain
- Water Shuriken
- Nasty Plot

Is it bad? Yes, auto-losing to Flyings sucks, being weak to U-Turn sucks, having no way to deal with status sucks. Is it also Mega Blastoise that at +2 can consistently OHKO a large portion of most teams? Yes. Shuriken is tragically inconsistent, but I dislike Electric subtype because running Thunderclap means dying to Grounds and being unable to hit Zeraora, and Vacuum Wave just wasn't it. Matcha Gotcha on the other hand was very funny, and has auto-won several games off the back of absurd healing. Giga's on the same level if you hate missing as much as I do.

Thundurus

Skyward (Thundurus) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Gigaton Hammer / Topsy-Turvy
- Lunar Dance / Destiny Bond / Topsy-Turvy
- Court Change / Topsy-Turvy

I like Lunar Dance over Destiny Bond. Dbond is cringe, Lunar Dance lets me get Blastoise back in the game when it's poisoned on 3% HP. Court Change is also much more interesting than Sticky Web, because it's a get out of jail free card vs the Webs teams that love leading Genie, clicking Webs, attempting to dbond (and failing) then sacrifice their genie. Topsy-Turvy is also a fun option to block Taunt in the second moveslot and as a get out of jail free card vs setup, when Spectral won't be enough, such as against Omniboosters with a broken Sash on Thundy.

 

[BandedBodyPress]

There seems to be an issue with Stone Axe. Its actually 95% accurate, not 20%. Mods please fix