Discussion The pattern of more rises than drops in usage-based lower tiers

[missangelic]

It feels like every so often a post like this is made begging lower tiers to become these stable places where nothing ever rises and you can develop that one same meta to your heart's content.

Guess what guys OU, Ubers, past gens exist. Ever since lower tiers started tiering by usage in gen 5 it's been a feature that each shift (3 months, enough time to run a full tournament) you get a slightly different meta. Sure this can cause problems but it can also solve problems. Lower tiers get away with less bans because usage brings up the problematic mons.

Councils can do whatever they want to mitigate these issues. Faster suspects, Koko method, quickbans are all valid strategies. Additionally if the concern is about tournaments, then simply freeze the tier for the course of the tournament or even better, schedule your tournaments so they happen between tier shifts.

Apologies for the dismmissive tone but it really just feels like these posts take 1000 words in order to say "I choose to play a tier with shifts but would prefer for there to be no shifts"

“Begging” is a pretty uncharitable way to describe this discussion, especially when I’ve mentioned several times across this thread that the goal of tweaking policy would not be to block rises or changes entirely. My own proposal even aims to keep rises. The whole point of having this PR thread now rather than the end of the Generation is so that we don’t have to have a last-minute fix policy that freezes rises altogether like in SS.

You’re right that it is very dismissive to enter a discussion of possible tiering modification and say “well if you don’t like it, play another tier”. It’s just as tone-deaf as entering a ban discussion or suspect thread and saying “well if you don’t like this element, play a different tier”. I actually have and still do play Ubers, non-lower tiers formats, and old gens that dont have tiering updates anymore, and they’re fun. I and many others tune into current gen tiering partly BECAUSE the metagames stay fresh with updates. That doesn’t mean these updates have to be majorly disruptive, which is the point of reform.

I already explained in my last post that just because rises can remove problematic Pokemon - a job that’s actually the responsibility of tiering councils - doesn’t mean they’re above reform, especially when they’re creating problems more than solving them. I recommend more closely reading other posts in this thread, especially ishtar’s.

 

[Bice]

hi, i know i'm necroing this thread but since the issues with usage-based tiering have been a hot topic as of late i wanted to revive this thread, especially given the state of sv lower tiers (specifically uu/ru).
coming from someone who used to play sv uu and ru, there has been a culture of low player morale among people who play these tiers, as every three months they lose more and more staples. more guys become overwhelming and end up getting banned, and the metagames become sterile and boring with little innovation and player engagement. in both uu and ru's subforums, activity has largely dried up outside of tournaments and the occassional post asking why a specific mon is/isn't viable. there's spikes in activity around tier shifts and suspect tests, and even then the former is mostly lamenting that we lost yet another staple mon. the ru discord server's activity is largely comprised of people lamenting the state of the meta and the lack of activity on the forums, while uu discord doesn't have much activity outside of using a fishing bot.
i know that there are unique issues relating to sv that contribute to this environment (particularly the sheer amount of power creep this gen), but i feel like this gen has exposed the cracks in usage-based tiering. in particular, tiering is vulnerable to being manipulated by bad actors; this has historically happened with ambipom in gen 7 and hitmontop in gen 8 (before tier rises were frozen near the end of gen 8 as a direct result of this). however, as discussed in this thread, advancements in artificial intelligence and its increasing accessibility has made this problem much worse, and it's likely going to worsen further before it gets better. i know there's work being done behind the scenes to curb these ladder bots, but this feels like a bandaid solution to a fundamentally flawed system.
i'm aware that i'm not speaking for nu and below (if any players of those tiers want to chime in then i'd love to hear your thoughts) and that i'm no expert on tiering systems, but i wanted to give input as a former player of two tiers that have suffered from this pattern, and who ultimately stopped playing because of it.