"Waiter! My Tail Glow is too Bright and my Oblivion Wing is too End-bringing!"
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Metagame SV Camove Chaos
- Thread starter Clas
- Start date
AHEM... Dhelmise, buddy listen... I'm sorry if I ratted you out but it might be joe(y)ver...
Cool Gigaton is not banned.
Alright get Dhelmise and Perrserker out of this house. A free 50% boost to Gigaton is just not ok in any universe.
Alright get Dhelmise and Perrserker out of this house. A free 50% boost to Gigaton is just not ok in any universe.
Perrserker is not banworthy lol. Not worth using unless you just love Doom Desire
Oookayyyyy...Instead of laughing, can you give me a reason why Dhelmise, and Perrserker/Dhelmise Junior over there, are healthy and not banworthy?
For every 100 points of damage Dhelmise does, Perrserker does 80.
With how overwhelming Zereora is I’m surprised he hasn’t actually been banned. Fastest mom the tier. Not really frail. Can set up and heal back with oblivion wing. With volt absorb he can have some very difficult to easily damage typings. He can run physical or special to be unpredictable.
Mathematically, Perrserker is closer to around 12 - 13% weaker than Dhelmise, but that's still really broken.
Zera has 1 good set per typing; that being Steam/OWing/(Knock/Secret/Psystrike)/NP for Water/Flying and Gigaton/OWing/PBlades/NP for Steel/Flying. Other typings are hyperspecific and hyperlimited, such as Fight/Fly only being viable thanks to fitting Spikes 4th. It also HAS to run Life Orb to do any damage, making answering Zera not that punishing. Fully physical sets are bad, and same with sets that aren't what I listed in 99.5% of scenarios. Zera is a very good progress maker, but answering it is very reasonable and counterplay to it also means you have counterplay for a lot more of the meta.
mainly in the om mashups room
With the end of the Camove ladder I want to post the team I used the most to hit #1 multiple times
100%MAXNOCHILL (Gardevoir) (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Secret Sword
- Torch Song
- Blood Moon
The star of the show Modest torch song Mgarde. This mon can solo almost every common spdef there is if you don't resist bloodmoon or secret sword you could not switch in. I made it modest just to make the calcs a little better since being max speed didn't matter as much as you'd think. Main issues with this mon were poison spdef mons and coal. While garde can "handle" cress and m-latias with tsong being poisoned is really annoying and requires you to play well (crazy i know) and coal needs to be under 80 to die switching in(unless its grass steel) and it does just threaten an ohko with gigaton
Actually Satan (Zeraora) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot
- Knock Off
Pretty average zera set not much to be said here helps with the poison guys and the av on slowking. Used to be water steel with Z but I realized thanks to Clas' version of the team that just running normal zera with knock works fine.
MarioMario (Haxorus) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Pyro Ball
- Parting Shot
- Bolt Strike
This is another mon I "took" from Clas it used to be modest scarf Blace because the og team idea was overwhelming spdef guys with 3 strong special attackers but it underperformed and Hax does answer Gardes weaker mus pretty well.
SHIROUFUCKINGEMIYA (Hydrapple) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Tachyon Cutter
- Dragon Tail
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
Tiger Mom (Slowking-Galar) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flip Turn
- Mortal Spin
- Spectral Thief
- Stone Axe
Worst Master (Regirock) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Flip Turn
- Spectral Thief
- Tidy Up
My personal go to defensive core in camove triple removal because hazards are annoying (because i can rarely fit them in) prob isn't that good but it withstood the randomly high amount of HO this tier has despite how mid it was.
Anyways this team is really fun and honestly surprised how little garde was used before ladder.
100%MAXNOCHILL (Gardevoir) (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Secret Sword
- Torch Song
- Blood Moon
The star of the show Modest torch song Mgarde. This mon can solo almost every common spdef there is if you don't resist bloodmoon or secret sword you could not switch in. I made it modest just to make the calcs a little better since being max speed didn't matter as much as you'd think. Main issues with this mon were poison spdef mons and coal. While garde can "handle" cress and m-latias with tsong being poisoned is really annoying and requires you to play well (crazy i know) and coal needs to be under 80 to die switching in(unless its grass steel) and it does just threaten an ohko with gigaton
Actually Satan (Zeraora) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot
- Knock Off
Pretty average zera set not much to be said here helps with the poison guys and the av on slowking. Used to be water steel with Z but I realized thanks to Clas' version of the team that just running normal zera with knock works fine.
MarioMario (Haxorus) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Pyro Ball
- Parting Shot
- Bolt Strike
This is another mon I "took" from Clas it used to be modest scarf Blace because the og team idea was overwhelming spdef guys with 3 strong special attackers but it underperformed and Hax does answer Gardes weaker mus pretty well.
SHIROUFUCKINGEMIYA (Hydrapple) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Tachyon Cutter
- Dragon Tail
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
Tiger Mom (Slowking-Galar) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flip Turn
- Mortal Spin
- Spectral Thief
- Stone Axe
Worst Master (Regirock) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Flip Turn
- Spectral Thief
- Tidy Up
My personal go to defensive core in camove triple removal because hazards are annoying (because i can rarely fit them in) prob isn't that good but it withstood the randomly high amount of HO this tier has despite how mid it was.
Anyways this team is really fun and honestly surprised how little garde was used before ladder.
Dhelmise is now banned.
Council unanimously agreed it needed to go. Steel/Normal and Steel/Grass Dhelmise don't share many checks, with Steel/Grass getting around the Ground weakness and Normal stopping Spectral Thief. That paired with genuinely ridiculous Gigaton Hammer damage at +2 and a severe lack of Bullet Punch answers alongside good natural bulk and sustain for an offensive Pokemon was way too much.
We will continue to monitor other top Gigaton Hammer users, but in the meantime there is no other action.
Council unanimously agreed it needed to go. Steel/Normal and Steel/Grass Dhelmise don't share many checks, with Steel/Grass getting around the Ground weakness and Normal stopping Spectral Thief. That paired with genuinely ridiculous Gigaton Hammer damage at +2 and a severe lack of Bullet Punch answers alongside good natural bulk and sustain for an offensive Pokemon was way too much.
We will continue to monitor other top Gigaton Hammer users, but in the meantime there is no other action.
what if gigaton went instead of dhelm tho the move is insanely splashable
Suspect ended up in a DNB.
oh rip
god i wish
Couple of good, currently unused sets – I'm lazy so no replays but they are there if you look
Ogerpon-Hearthflame @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Thousand Waves
- Mortal Spin / Stone Axe
- Strength Sap
Incredible blend of offense and utility, with really only Ability Shield users (unviable) being able to negate most means of progress and utility. Fire/Ground is obviously an excellent STAB combination and a surprisingly decent defensive type (80/96 special bulk with resists and the capacity to outspeed most hard hitters is much better than it looks), but due to the variety of whatever defensive typings you may encounter (ex. Water/Flying, Fire/Flying, very bulky Pokemon not hit SE) that alone is insufficient. However, the utility we can pack is pretty much unparalleled compared to any other type. Sacred Fire's burn chance and Thousand Waves' ability to gain additional turns by forcing trapped foes to recover in a myriad of game positions are already impressive. However, we can also Mortal Spin, which is basically unblockable due to viable Steel-types being weak to at least one of Fire or Ground, and Stone Axe, which sets hazards while dealing non-negligible damage and targeting Fire/Flying, to the mix. Along with Strength Sap, the result is a simply astounding combination of raw strength, practical utility, and longevity that is a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure you could also run the much bulkier Mega Gyarados instead, though I haven't experimented with it myself.
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Explosion
- Quick Attack / Multi-Attack / Strength Sap / Stone Axe / Glacial Lance etc.
Also really hard to deny progress against. The set is simple: Scrappy Normal + Fighting is pretty much unwallable with sufficiently strong attacks, and your attacks are DEFINITELY strong enough. +2 Jolly Explosion OHKOes neutral non-Sturdy Regirock, meaning you grab at least one KO vs. anything bar Eviolite Rhydon if Jolly (and technically Sturdy Regirock). Fighting-type coverage perfectly complements Scrappy Normal STAB, with the only real downside being a Beak Blast/Oblivion Wing weakness. There are a few pretty robust switch-ins like Steel/Flying Rhydon but you have an additional moveslot to tinker around with, so your consistency isn't as impeded by Camove's volatility as for other offensive mons. Spectral immunity, Knock Off/U-turn resists, and just enough bulk that you can often SD to +4 are also pretty nice.
Couple of good teams – I haven't willingly built for a long time now but these have worked for me and I haven't posted them anywhere yet
Semistall-ish structure, but I don't think this team fits neatly into any one archetype due to even the seemingly defensive Pokemon being primary progress-makers. Regirock, and Hydrapple handle physical attacks well enough in the short-term, while Blissey/Hydrapple/Tornadus are sufficient in the short-term on the special side. While in the long-term these Pokemon would be broken through, pivoting into Ditto usually prevents that from becoming an issue. While it is possible to Improof while having advantageous matchup into whatever physically/specially defensive tools each variation has, it's generally not worth it due to necessitating sets that are objectively not as effective as most mainstream attackers against most of the metagame. Mabosstiff is (still) really broken and is more than sufficient as a standalone breaker, progress maker with utility attacks, and priority user if you find that worthwhile. These 2 are probably collectively 10-0 or better in ISTT or wherever else I used them, more consistent than almost every sample imo
Pretty good noobkiller, but many matchups require very precise play. King's Shield is replaceable with Spiky Shield for Choiced Pursuit users, but both have their tradeoffs. Replacing Skeledirge for a Steel/Flying Regenerator user makes some tougher matchups easier to play, but slightly decreases consistency imo. Spectral/King's Shield/Circle Throw/recovery Coalossal could honestly be an improvement, making random Normal/Steel setup less annoying to deal with, but I never bothered to test that change. Like with the above team (and any others), you could think of a decently long list of sets that 6-0 without too much difficulty, but most of them would necessitate hard cteaming which isn't worth it. Easily the most consistent hard stall I've tried, but even for Camove the bar is pretty low and it's not necessarily a team I would use taking opposing scouts into consideration in tours.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Thousand Waves
- Mortal Spin / Stone Axe
- Strength Sap
Incredible blend of offense and utility, with really only Ability Shield users (unviable) being able to negate most means of progress and utility. Fire/Ground is obviously an excellent STAB combination and a surprisingly decent defensive type (80/96 special bulk with resists and the capacity to outspeed most hard hitters is much better than it looks), but due to the variety of whatever defensive typings you may encounter (ex. Water/Flying, Fire/Flying, very bulky Pokemon not hit SE) that alone is insufficient. However, the utility we can pack is pretty much unparalleled compared to any other type. Sacred Fire's burn chance and Thousand Waves' ability to gain additional turns by forcing trapped foes to recover in a myriad of game positions are already impressive. However, we can also Mortal Spin, which is basically unblockable due to viable Steel-types being weak to at least one of Fire or Ground, and Stone Axe, which sets hazards while dealing non-negligible damage and targeting Fire/Flying, to the mix. Along with Strength Sap, the result is a simply astounding combination of raw strength, practical utility, and longevity that is a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure you could also run the much bulkier Mega Gyarados instead, though I haven't experimented with it myself.
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Explosion
- Quick Attack / Multi-Attack / Strength Sap / Stone Axe / Glacial Lance etc.
Also really hard to deny progress against. The set is simple: Scrappy Normal + Fighting is pretty much unwallable with sufficiently strong attacks, and your attacks are DEFINITELY strong enough. +2 Jolly Explosion OHKOes neutral non-Sturdy Regirock, meaning you grab at least one KO vs. anything bar Eviolite Rhydon if Jolly (and technically Sturdy Regirock). Fighting-type coverage perfectly complements Scrappy Normal STAB, with the only real downside being a Beak Blast/Oblivion Wing weakness. There are a few pretty robust switch-ins like Steel/Flying Rhydon but you have an additional moveslot to tinker around with, so your consistency isn't as impeded by Camove's volatility as for other offensive mons. Spectral immunity, Knock Off/U-turn resists, and just enough bulk that you can often SD to +4 are also pretty nice.
Couple of good teams – I haven't willingly built for a long time now but these have worked for me and I haven't posted them anywhere yet
Semistall-ish structure, but I don't think this team fits neatly into any one archetype due to even the seemingly defensive Pokemon being primary progress-makers. Regirock, and Hydrapple handle physical attacks well enough in the short-term, while Blissey/Hydrapple/Tornadus are sufficient in the short-term on the special side. While in the long-term these Pokemon would be broken through, pivoting into Ditto usually prevents that from becoming an issue. While it is possible to Improof while having advantageous matchup into whatever physically/specially defensive tools each variation has, it's generally not worth it due to necessitating sets that are objectively not as effective as most mainstream attackers against most of the metagame. Mabosstiff is (still) really broken and is more than sufficient as a standalone breaker, progress maker with utility attacks, and priority user if you find that worthwhile. These 2 are probably collectively 10-0 or better in ISTT or wherever else I used them, more consistent than almost every sample imo
Pretty good noobkiller, but many matchups require very precise play. King's Shield is replaceable with Spiky Shield for Choiced Pursuit users, but both have their tradeoffs. Replacing Skeledirge for a Steel/Flying Regenerator user makes some tougher matchups easier to play, but slightly decreases consistency imo. Spectral/King's Shield/Circle Throw/recovery Coalossal could honestly be an improvement, making random Normal/Steel setup less annoying to deal with, but I never bothered to test that change. Like with the above team (and any others), you could think of a decently long list of sets that 6-0 without too much difficulty, but most of them would necessitate hard cteaming which isn't worth it. Easily the most consistent hard stall I've tried, but even for Camove the bar is pretty low and it's not necessarily a team I would use taking opposing scouts into consideration in tours.