• Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!

Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

Now that Heat Rock has had its time in the sun (pun intended), can we finally address the conversation around the past few PAGES of this discussion thread and suspect what people (for or against) are actually interested in, Gliscor?
The more cynical might suggest that the only reason Heat Rock was suspected at all was to stall the final few weeks before MWP so Gliscor would be safe. A very Gliscor-like strategy.
 
Irys said:
Fighting ? :Iron Hands:
Click to expand...
Fighting is generally awful into flying but both Hands and Shifu easily break the core you mentioned. SD Punching Glove Shifu in particular doesn't have to worry about Helmet on Corv or Flame Body on Tres. Band Shifu just OHKOs Tres/Gliscor and 2HKOs Corv/Cuno, and has the advantage of being able to avoid toxic-stall from Gliscor (unfortunately Punching Glove turns off Unseen Fist) but does have to be wary of the contact-punishers. There may be a better item you can run here as well on the SD set, like Lum may be the more reliable option for setting up on Gliscor since it will often decide to trade Toxic for SD.

Issue with Hands is that it's just very slow, and it's also your main flying resist. Against types that are resistant/immune to fighting it's really hard to get max value because your Drain Punch won't be able to sustain your sweep. All that Flying needs to do is not feed it Corv/Cuno as Drain Punch fodder, and they will eventually wear it down. Then you're just clean swept by Torn or whatever.

Hands is good for weakening flying with its boltbeam coverage if you have good predictions, but it doesn't really one-shot anything unboosted and it doesn't last forever.
 
Hello everyone. The seventh edition of Monotype Winter Premier has recently come to a close, and here I wanted to discuss some of the meta shifts that we have seen during this tournament. In total, 123 games of SV Monotype were played, and the meta that developed in this MWP has some notable differences compared to MPL. 17 types were represented, with Ice being the only type never brought. After greatly struggling in MPL, Steel has regained its popularity in MWP. The other mainstays in Dragon, Dark, Water, and Flying remain popular. But looking more deeply at the teams used in MWP reveals some interesting trends. In this post, having rewatched all 123 games, I will list what I believe to be the top five meta shifts that occurred in MWP.

I also made extensive use of the following resources:
MWP VII Usage Stats (2 Rock Threat games and 1 Flying Threat are mistakenly included in SV)
MPL XI Usage Stats
Thanks to the tournament hosts for maintaining them.

Disclaimer: Everything that follows is my own opinion. The numerical order does not correspond to importance or prevalence.
Without further ado, let's begin.

1. Raging Bolt on Dragon
Dragon was the most popular type in MWP, but its preferred team changed rather dramatically between MPL and now. In MPL, aside from the near shoo-ins of :archaludon: :goodra-hisui: :dragapult:, it was very common to run Latios and Roaring Moon. Latios has flexible sets such as Choice Specs and Expert Belt while Roaring Moon complements the rest of the team very well as a physical attacker and Scarfer. This was reflected in the usage stats, with Roaring Moon at 64% usage being the least-used of the five, and the next mon after that at only 36% usage.

But this is no longer the case. Dragon teams now prefer Raging Bolt, which rose to 62% usage in MWP. If Raging Bolt is viewed as a replacement for Roaring Moon (though this need not always be the case), the team now lacks a Scarfer, which is a role perfectly filled by Latias; compared to Latios, Latias offers valuable access to Healing Wish. In fact, of the 19 times Latias was brought in MWP, Raging Bolt was a teammate 17 times!

On paper, Raging Bolt provides highly desirable offensive traits; it is capable of running a Calm Mind set using its already sky-high Special Attack and Thunderclap for priority, or it can use a Choice Specs set for immediate surprise breaking power. On paper, that lets it win the Flying and Water matchups among others essentially by itself, while Protosynthesis is invaluable in the Fire matchup. On paper, it is also valuable against Steel as the only Electric resistance on Steel is Iron Treads, which lacks recovery and can be chipped down over time. Needless to say, the reason I say "on paper" is because its actual performance has not been quite as successful as advertised. Raging Bolt's own win rate on Dragon (47%) underperforms the type's win rate (50%). In the only time the matchup occurred, a well-piloted Flying team was able to neutralize Latias and Raging Bolt: MemphisDepay vs yedla (Flying vs Dragon, Week 1). While there is certainly potential in this team structure, more development is needed to bring out its full potential.

Replays:
LoSconosciuto vs Xiri (Dragon vs Fire, Week 3) - Specs Raging Bolt with Healing Wish support at its best
frol1 vs crow crumbs (Dragon vs Steel, Week 4) - removing the Ground type lets Raging Bolt clean up

2. Steel's Revival
Despite generally being regarded as one of the top 3-4 types in SV Monotype, it ended up as only the 7th most-used type in MPL with just a 27% win rate. In MWP, Steel returned to prominence as the 2nd most used type with an impressive 61% win rate. What accounts for this resurgence is a variety of deviations from its standard core.

For most of SV post-Kingambit ban, Steel teams generally looked the same: :archaludon: :heatran: :iron-treads: :skarmory: :gholdengo: (:goodra-hisui: / :scizor:). This was precisely what was used in MPL. However, MWP saw quite a bit more diversity. Excadrill found great success with its access to Mold Breaker and more reliable Steel STAB and Empoleon was used as a special wall with reliable recovery. But the set that truly took the Steel type by storm was Bulk Up Corviknight. This is not an entirely new set - it was brought three times in MPL as the sixth slot in the aforementioned structure and lost every time. By contrast, out of 16 appearances, Bulk Up Corviknight was brought 15 times* in MWP! Moreover, in these 15 teams, only 2 had Skarmory as well. This indicates Corviknight is usually used as a Skarmory replacement.
*Bulk Up was only revealed 9 times, but 6 times had Brave Bird + Leftovers which usually indicates a Bulk Up set. The remaining game had U-Turn revealed, which usually is not used with Bulk Up.

By replacing Skarmory with Corviknight, Steel relinquishes its hazard stacking capabilities, in exchange getting a versatile specially bulky Pokemon who can also become a win condition if certain checks are removed. It also forces Archaludon into a physically defensive set, though physically defensive Archaludon was not uncommon even when Skarmory was used, so switching to Corviknight in this case reduces redundancy. With hazard stacking no longer the main plan, it is also no longer necessary to run a bulky Gholdengo set, so on teams with Corviknight and without Skarmory, Gholdengo commonly ran Nasty Plot or Choiced sets. These sets in turn are far more valuable in the Flying matchup where Spikes are ineffective anyway. Xiri vs Kev (Steel vs Flying, Week 4) illustrates this perfectly with Choice Specs Gholdengo punching holes through the Flying core every time it came in. After all its answers were removed, Bulk Up Corv was able to clean up.

While Bulk Up Corviknight is certainly an innovative solution to some of Steel's issues, the irony is that its results were not particularly impressive. Corviknight had just a 47% win rate while Skarmory had 74%. Part of the explanation could be these teams not having been fully figured out yet or even just a low sample size, but there are structural questions that still need answering as well. Giving up hazard stacking as a method of making progress has a real cost, especially against types that don't usually remove hazards like Dragon or Dark. In Fusien vs Scarfire (Steel vs Dragon, Week 7), Skarmory was greatly missed as Dragon played the entire game without hazards and Swords Dance Garchomp was able to knock out two Pokemon.

Replays:
MemphisDepay vs crow crumbs (Steel vs Dragon, Week 2) - Using Corviknight and Skarmory together maintains hazard stacking for Dragon, but it requires tradeoffs elsewhere. (Alternatively characterized as using Corviknight as the 6th slot in the old team.)
Scarfire vs benladil (Steel vs Dark, Week 5) - after a Thunder miss, Bulk Up Corviknight was able to win the game outright.

3. Taunt
While Taunt has always been around as a stallbreaking option, this MWP truly saw an explosion in its usage*. Part of the reason for this is because the aforementioned Bulk Up Corv routinely uses Taunt (revealing it five times with potentially more unconfirmed). However, the even more popular Taunt user has proven to be Ting-Lu on Dark, using Taunt six times (for comparison, in MPL, Taunt Ting-Lu was only used once).
*As Taunt is only revealed after it is used or attempted, I was only able to determine how many times it was revealed. It could have been (and likely was) brought more times but not used.

Taunt has multiple uses depending on the Pokemon using it. Pokemon who can hit the right speed tiers, particularly Ting-Lu can use it to deny Corviknight's Defog and Roost. Corviknight itself uses Taunt to stop moves like Whirlwind. In Azick vs zugubu royale (Flying vs Water, Week 5), Taunt Gyarados (though far from unheard of) was essentially able to defeat Stall Water by itself. But Taunt would not have made this list if it weren't for the fact that it started being used everywhere. We saw it used on:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-890593 Ting-Lu (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-891536 Mandibuzz (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-891802 Bulk Up Corv (Steel)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-892156 Ting-Lu (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-893336 Ting-Lu (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-894495 Ting-Lu (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-893855 Corv (Steel)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2507913555 Gyarados (Water)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-894851 Bulk Up Corv (Steel)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-895499 Ting-Lu (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-896404 Skarmory (Steel)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-896563 Darkrai (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-896914 Gliscor (Flying)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-897209 Ting-Lu (Dark)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-897462 Bulk Up Corv (Steel) on both sides
For a long time in SV, Taunt has always felt underused. When given the choice, usually Encore is preferred, especially on Pokemon like Ogerpon and Sableye. As a result, some teams have gotten complacent. For instance, Stall Water routinely runs Toxapex with no attacking moves. Corviknight on Flying never feels the need to run any Speed, but with Ting-Lu investing heavily into Speed to outspeed it while Skarmory is already naturally faster, perhaps that will need to change as well.

4. Great Tusk on Sand Ground
Ground perfectly embodies the proverb "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Just looking at select stats between MPL and MWP reveals some uncanny similarities:
  • Excadrill (aka sand) usage: 60% in MWP, 58.82% in MPL
  • Excadrill (aka sand) win rate: 41.67% in MWP, 40% in MPL
Seeing how similar those numbers are, one might assume that the teams are virtually unchanged from MPL. Yet it is remarkable just how quickly everybody rejected the MPL sand team and decided on the same replacement.

Taking a step back for a moment, it is worth noting that Ground can in some sense be considered two different types. There are sand teams, which are highly offensive and typically take the structure :hippowdon: :clodsire: :excadrill: :landorus: :mamoswine: [Flex]. Then there are teams which were formerly described as "sandless" but now might be better described as "bulky Ground" teams which have more flexible team structures but typically include Gliscor and potentially Ting-Lu, Iron Treads, and so forth.

With regard to Sand teams, in MPL the near-universal choice in the flex slot was Garchomp. In MWP, out of the 12 times Excadrill was used, Garchomp was only a teammate 4 times. Instead, Great Tusk occupied that slot 7 times, usually as a Scarfer. Compared to Garchomp, which had various sets including Spike stack, setup sweeper with SD Scale Shot, and mixed attacker with Life Orb, Great Tusk offers speed control that doesn't require Sand to be set up first. It also aims to alleviate the challenging Dark matchup which Ground lost every time in MPL.

Unfortunately, these effectiveness of these changes is very much in question. The type's already low 35% win rate, upon inspection, is actually propped up by 3 instances of the mirror. Removing them yields a win rate of just 29% (4/14) - the lowest of any type that won at least one game. Moreover, Excadrill won 5 times, of which 3 of them were this very mirror matchup. Removing them yields a win rate of 29% (2/7), exactly the same as the type's win rate (this also means that teams without Excadrill have the same win rate). These results suggest that sand and bulky teams are both lackluster in the meta. This is surprising since the top three types by usage in this MWP were Dragon, Steel, and Water, the first two of which are generally considered very playable for Ground and the third is team-dependent. This hints at deeper issues about the type, how it is piloted, or when people decide to bring it at all.

For completeness, here are the only two non-mirror Sand wins:
Xiri vs Ringmaster Uta (Ground vs Steel, Week 1) - Steel was never able to stop Gravity
Xiri vs Fogbound Lake (Ground vs Water, Week 5) - Water lacking Oger-W has a lot of trouble against Ground.

5. Specs Primarina on Fairy
On ladder, Primarina on Fairy is usually used as a Calm Mind sweeper. Indeed, Calm Mind was used 63% of the time last month. But MWP has proven to be quite a different landscape. Out of the 20 times Primarina was brought on Fairy in MWP, here are the sets it used:
Code: 
Choice Specs: 9
Calm Mind: 3
Assault Vest: 2
Inconclusive/never came in: 6
This is a marked increase even compared to MPL, where Primarina was brought on Fairy 5 times and used Specs twice (though Specs Primarina is far from unknown on Water). Since Primarina was one of the most-used Pokemon on Fairy (behind only the staples Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, and Klefki), it's clear that this set has been a key contributor to Fairy's impressive win rate. Specs turns Primarina from a bulky setup sweeper into a potent wallbreaker, capable of weakening or eliminating Pokemon that would otherwise have been used to stop other threats like Flutter Mane. For example, in Chaitanya vs RoFnA (Fairy vs Dragon, Week 5), Primarina was able to eliminate Goodra-H immediately, opening up a Hatterene sweep.

It should be noted that the most common team structure on Fairy is still the "double water" team: :klefki: :flutter-mane: :iron-valiant: :hatterene: :azumarill: :primarina: which has historically been infamously inconsistent. While Assault Vest Primarina at least attempts to give Fairy a defensive backbone, Specs takes what is already a glass cannon type to another level. Fairy's win rate is largely driven by favorable matchups like Ground and Fighting (going a combined 5-0 against them); it did not face Steel at all and went an uninspiring 1-1 against Dragon. In fact, most deviations from the standard double water team (I particularly want to highlight Clefable, Enamorus, and Tinkaton) have outperformed the type overall, so it remains to be seen whether Specs Primarina will stick or whether it will find a better home on other team structures.

Replays:
LBN vs Vapour (Fairy mirror, Week 5) - an innovative use of Trick Room Hatterene as support for Primarina
Xiri vs Azick (Fairy vs Poison, Semis) - a Poison team without switchins to Primarina is forced to make substantial concessions

Do you agree with this list? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. Thanks for reading.
 
I have a question of the format, maybe it's a stupid one but...

I'm curious about why Protean is legal in Monotype, it isn't considered overpowered to change your type in a format where you can only use one type and the reason why Tera is banned in the first place?
 
ElPachirisuDelVGC said:
I have a question of the format, maybe it's a stupid one but...

I'm curious about why Protean is legal in Monotype, it isn't considered overpowered to change your type in a format where you can only use one type and the reason why Tera is banned in the first place?
Click to expand...
Protean/Libero are allowed in Monotype because they are temporary type changes that reset after switching out. Relic Song on Meloetta falls under this category as well. Tera was banned because it does violate the Same Type Clause of Monotype and even when restricted to only using the Tera type of the type shared with the team, it made matchups more lopsided than they already were. So, Tera was just seen as a mechanic that was too strong for the tier and removed.
 
I've noticed a funny thing: You can technically get a Pokemon outside of your type. Is it...kinda dumb? Yes. Is it cool to play Monotype Wild Card WITHOUT Wild Card (despite me never even trying out the format)? Also yes.

It's actually fully possible to use Relic Song Meloetta on Psychic. Just was experimenting with Psychic (been a while since I used it) and it was a pretty cool thing to find out.
 
The rule is that those type changes must be temporary. In addition to Meloetta, whose type change reverts on switch-out, you can also get Pokemon of other types by using Protean/Libero. Similarly, Reflect Type, Camouflage, Conversion, and Conversion 2 are perfectly legal. Even more relevantly, so is Roost. By contrast, some Mega evolutions give permanent type changes, as does Tera (though Tera is banned altogether).

With that said, even this rule isn't completely watertight as Shaymin-Sky was legal for a brief period at the start of SV, including on Flying teams. A little-known interaction is that after its frozen, it will remain in the land form for the rest of the battle. In any case it's an extremely niche interaction that doesn't matter now anyway.
 
No. If respondents want to share their own rankings (in this thread or elsewhere), they are more than welcome to, but otherwise they'll remain private.
 
Hello everyone. Here are the results of the Community Type VR, Feb 2026 edition. In total, this survey had a record 70 responses (31 qualified). Thanks to everyone who filled out the form!

Overall
1771093764635.png

Code: 
+----------+----------+---------+
|   Type   | Avg Rank | Std Dev |
+----------+----------+---------+
| Steel    |     3.13 |    2.19 |
| Dragon   |     3.70 |    3.66 |
| Flying   |     4.14 |    3.30 |
| Dark     |     4.94 |    3.19 |
| Water    |     5.16 |    2.75 |
| Ground   |     7.46 |    3.29 |
| Fairy    |     7.47 |    3.62 |
| Ghost    |     8.11 |    3.08 |
| Fire     |     8.53 |    2.29 |
| Fighting |     9.43 |    3.15 |
| Poison   |    11.01 |    3.13 |
| Bug      |    12.21 |    3.40 |
| Normal   |    12.79 |    2.97 |
| Psychic  |    13.84 |    3.29 |
| Electric |    14.23 |    3.54 |
| Grass    |    14.54 |    3.33 |
| Ice      |    14.59 |    3.45 |
| Rock     |    15.71 |    3.14 |
+----------+----------+---------+
Qualified
1771093860420.png

Code: 
+----------+----------+---------+
|   Type   | Avg Rank | Std Dev |
+----------+----------+---------+
| Dragon   |     2.03 |    1.20 |
| Flying   |     2.58 |    1.48 |
| Steel    |     2.81 |    1.68 |
| Dark     |     3.55 |    1.15 |
| Water    |     5.42 |    1.54 |
| Ground   |     6.65 |    2.04 |
| Fairy    |     7.90 |    2.15 |
| Fighting |     8.13 |    1.82 |
| Ghost    |     8.32 |    2.30 |
| Fire     |     8.87 |    1.28 |
| Bug      |    11.55 |    1.52 |
| Poison   |    11.81 |    2.09 |
| Normal   |    12.55 |    1.48 |
| Psychic  |    14.68 |    2.31 |
| Grass    |    15.61 |    2.01 |
| Ice      |    15.68 |    1.49 |
| Electric |    16.06 |    1.53 |
| Rock     |    16.81 |    1.30 |
+----------+----------+---------+
Tiers were selected via k-means clustering.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, the results came out fairly similarly to last the one.
The only major change is how much Fighting has just fallen off recently, formerly it was above Ground in A and now its down in B, notably being the only type to drop a tier. Otherwise its mostly just a repeat with only minor shuffling around.

That being said, we really are allowing Grass to keep getting away with not being bottom 1.
 
Jahkem said:
The Gouging Fire suspect and voting has officially ended and resulted in a ban. I would like to introduce a new kind of ladder challenge: Monotype Ironman!

What is an Ironman Challenge?
An Ironman Challenge in video games is essentially trying to complete a task with only 1 chance available to you. A prominent example would be in fighting games where you attempt to win with every single character in a row without losing a game. The order is usually determined by the participant.

How to take on the Monotype Ironman Challenge
You create 18 teams, one team for every type. No sample teams! The challenge is to win with every single type in the game with losing with the teams you handcrafted. 18 games won consecutively. The punishment for losing once is starting all over again, regardless of the progress you made. That risk losing all progress is what usually drives people to keep complete this challenge. I first started trying this out in Gen 8 and was able to complete the challenge once after a fair amount of attempts.
View attachment 720916

Determining Type Order
View attachment 720918
The most straightforward order to go in. This is the order I chose when I completed the Monotype Ironman Challenge. Starting with Bug and ending with Water. This order has a nice mix between the good and bad types along the way. On the flip side, you could go in reverse alphabetical order by starting with Water and ending with Bug.

View attachment 720920
Create your own tier list here.

Going back to the fighting game example, tier list order is a popular order to go in. Typically starting at the bottom of the tier list and work your way up to the top. However, we don’t have an official tier list for all 18 types yet. So, in this case I advise that you create your own tier list based on what you think are the best-to-worst types listed in order like I just did. Also, just like with alphabetical order, you could go in reverse tier list order and start with the best type and finish the worst type.

Spin the Pokemon Wheel

This is probably one of, if not the most, popular order to go in for an Ironman Challenge. The link I provided will spin the wheel and once a type is selected, you can delete it from the wheel using the button that shows up. This helps prevent a type being chosen repeatedly.

Obviously, you could use !pick as well:

!pick Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water

You’d have to manually take out each type after every pick, but this method of randomization is an option is available to you.

Difficulty Levels
This is generally the “easiest” difficulty level for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You make a fresh account and start laddering. Every time you lose before completing the challenge, you make another fresh account and start laddering again. Facing low ladder can either be a breeze and have you constantly coming up with new names for an alt for resets.

This is difficulty ramps up quite fast. You would still reset if you lose before winning with every type without a loss. However, with the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, instead of making a new account for a reset, you try again at the current ELO you’re at.

If you made it to 1400 ELO on your alt, you’ll start again with the first type of your order wherever your alt is on ladder. You keep going until you can win those 18 games in a row on the same alt.

The absolute pinnacle of Ironmen. The hardest difficulty possible for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You complete the challenge as you normally would in the order that you chose. Followed by going in the reverse of the order you have chosen.

For example, if you completed the challenge in alphabetical order, you would finish with Water. For the Ultimate Ironman difficulty, you would use Water again and proceed to work your way back up to Bug for an astounding 36 game win streak on your alt.

This isn’t an official tournament or challenge, this is a fun challenge for those that want to test their will and teambuilder against the ladder. It would be great for people to talk about their attempts, progress, and things they witnessed along their attempts. If you want to use a tag, you could use MIC. Would love to see people post their completion of the challenge.

You could post a screenshot like I did if you went 18-0. Or, if you’re doing the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, post 2 screenshots of your record after a failed attempt and seeing the +18 on the wins after completing. You could also post all the replays along the way. Whichever way you want to show off your completion of the challenge. This is an honor system essentially, no one will try to verify if you posted an honest completed run. I’ll give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers to anyone who takes on the challenge!
Click to expand...
Thank you to Ethereal Sword for another resourceful Type VR survey. The Monotype Ironman Challenge is still something that can be done for fun for anyone that wants to attempt with the current type rankings that were published.
 
Pengairxan said:
Honestly, the results came out fairly similarly to last the one.
The only major change is how much Fighting has just fallen off recently, formerly it was above Ground in A and now its down in B, notably being the only type to drop a tier. Otherwise its mostly just a repeat with only minor shuffling around.

That being said, we really are allowing Grass to keep getting away with not being bottom 1.
Click to expand...
At least Grass has Grassy Terrain, Rock types are completely atrocious as a type
 
I agree that Grass is worse than Rock. They’re both bottom tier types, but I would say Rock is slightly better at least for its good offensive threats. It was the worst type at the start, but with the additions of Kleavor, Terrakion, Hisuian Arcanine, Ogerpon Cornerstone and Iron Boulder it is at least not completely terrible anymore.
 
Pengairxan said:
That being said, we really are allowing Grass to keep getting away with not being bottom 1.
Click to expand...
I think grass is a much more potent type than it is given credit for. It’s still bad, but unlike rock and electric their is actually real potential variation in your team composition and the pokemon you have access to are stellar in certain matchups. Breloom vs dark, hlilli vs dragon, hoger vs steel being backed up by all around solid pokemon like sinistcha, meowscarada and amoongus. I’m a strong advocate that if grass just had an ice move switch-in like ferrothorn in SV it could play ball. Obviously it has no ice move switch in really so it holds the type back, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not potentially potent in ways that I just can’t see rock or electric being, rock particularly. I would never rate grass as bottom 1, personally.
 
Molemitts said:
I think grass is a much more potent type than it is given credit for. It’s still bad, but unlike rock and electric their is actually real potential variation in your team composition and the pokemon you have access to are stellar in certain matchups. Breloom vs dark, hlilli vs dragon, hoger vs steel being backed up by all around solid pokemon like sinistcha, meowscarada and amoongus. I’m a strong advocate that if grass just had an ice move switch-in like ferrothorn in SV it could play ball. Obviously it has no ice move switch in really so it holds the type back, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not potentially potent in ways that I just can’t see rock or electric being, rock particularly. I would never rate grass as bottom 1, personally.
Click to expand...
I do agree with this. Grass is the better of the bottom types and you do have to bring certain specific mons to succeed in a matchup. It just has a tendency to fall flat on its face if you don’t bring the right mons. Example not bringing breloom vs stall water or dark. Or not bringing Ogerpon-H for steel. However, grass is way more consistent than rock or electric for example. The latter just feels like cheese and the former just feels like a coin flip.
 
It seems I have awoken Sificon's sleeper agents.

My reasoning for Grass is this. Compared to the other 5 bottom types, its the one I most consistently see being able to pull neutral to winning matchups and still failing to make them work over the past 2 years I've been somewhat keeping up with team tours for (just going through the DLC2 Era)

Psychic basically should always beat Fighting which gives it something and generally has enough powerful threats that it can check other types like Fire and Flying without a horrendous spread. Psychic has also managed to get a win in an MPL 2024

Ice while not as stable in practice, has managed to pick up random team tour wins over time and I would argue has a matchup into Flying and Ground worth something. Ice also managed to get a W in an MPL 2024 (and MWP 2023, but it was literally the start of DLC2, Bax + Pao were legal, that type was good.)

Electric is seeing experimentation now, and while they backfired specularly in MWP, I still think there is something there that with enough elbow grease, you can probably secure a couple of MUs, hell it nearly did win two during MWP but one was lost due to a supercell slam, and the other, was a game of all time.

Then there is just Grass and Rock. While Rock isn't loaded, whenever Rock does show up, it seems to always find itself facing down a bad MU, if it managed to actually pull a winning or even Neutralish matchup, I fully believe it could get that W. (Notably, it was loaded twice last year, it only managed to pull Water and Fighting, issues ahoy)

Grass meanwhile has managed to pull some good Neutral/Winning matchups semi consistently throughout the past 2 years.
We have had 4 grass loads in MPL, 1 in MWP, and 5 in MFPL.

Its matchups have been
-1 Bug, It lost
-1 Fairy, it lost
-2 Fires, it lost that duh, this was still Gouging era
- 1 Dragon, It lost, still Gouging country though
- 1 Normal, it lost
- 1 STALL WATER, It lost, despite having Rillaboom, which if we're going to argue that Grassy Terrain with Rillaboom is not enough to beat Stall water, we need to have Breloom to win, why not load fighting at that point and have a good MU into a bunch of other types then?
-And 1 Dark It lost, this was still gambit era, but at the same time, it also had Lilli-H and a low kick Meowscarada.

Now it did win 1 during this time. It won and lost against itself in MFPL last year. Thats it. Thats all Grass has to its name, a god damn win against itself.
I need to know what we've dulited ourselves with that a type that is consistently winless outside the mirror, not due to pulling bad matchups, but due to its own sheer lack of talent is doing somehow not only being considered the worst type, but consistently managed to convice its way to get loaded in tour after tour on a regular basis.
And this isn't coming from a place of not trying myself mind you, I've tried to build Grass far more often than the other 4 types here. However I've managed to have success with Psychic on the ladder despite using Delphox and do regularly see Psychic on high ladder. I've seen Electric and Ice do well in Room tours and have seen it pop up on ocassion on high ladder, Grass and Rock are rarities in this aspect and you'll rarely see them, but if I encounter one, its usually Rock, not Grass.
 
Last edited:
Daw whats this discussion, rock is the worst type ever thats a monotype law in every gen The end

On another matter I wanted to propose something, this gonna sound like a sort of a joke but hear me out ok? I propose to unban annihilape and ban rage fist instead.

Props to unban Annihilape/ ban Rage Fist:

  • Annihilape is balanced without the move
  • Monotype win a valid and capable mon to use in the tier
  • 2 mid tier types enjoy the unban making them more viable in the meta
But now the obvious con: Primeape, a Rage Fist user as well, isnt broken with the move.

That could be the end of the discussion right there, except there is a precedent: when the move Last Respects was banned in the past, instead of banning the users, the move was banned even if there was a mon, Basculin, that wasnt broken with the move (if you tell me Last Respects Basculin is broken in monotype i'm gonna slap you).
So at the time was decided to ban the move and keep the mons, and it proved to be a good decision, no one complains and it let us use Basculegion in the tier. I think the same can be done with Annihilape. What do you think? :pika:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top