Monotype Suspect: Sablenite (again)

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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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The council has voted to suspect Sablenite again.

Voter ID Thread

Acast: suspect
All Falls Down: no vote (traveling)
Anttya: abstain
Articuno I: suspect
Paleo: no suspect
scpinion: suspect
iVid: suspect
The original Sablenite suspect recently came up in the discussion thread. The council had actually discussed retesting stuff the week before—that discussion included a retest on Sablenite. This retest is happening for two reasons:

1) There were concerns that many suspect voters used "if we ban this, Ghost will suck" as the primary reasoning for choosing not to ban Sablenite. That reasoning is antithetical to the Monotype tiering philosophy, which was still very new at the time (and people had concerns over whether it was a good idea).

2) No one really knows how a Sablenite-less ORAS meta will play. We can all theory-mon about how Type X or Type Y will be better because they don't have to use team/move slots to check Sableye-Mega. We can also theory-mon about how Sableye-Mega keeps many of the top tier ORAS threats on other types in check—facilitating the balanced meta we're currently enjoying. This is your chance to test those ideas and use actual battles to support your arguments.


In order to vote in this suspect, you will need to accumulate 3120 COIL on the Monotype ladder where Sablenite will be banned. The B-value for this suspect is 4.0. There is no game limit for this test. If you want to calculate the exact number of games a certain GXE requires, go here and replace the word GXE with the numerical GXE you're interested in and click search. To learn more about the COIL system, read Antar's thread here.

You may also view your COIL by simply typing /rank into the PS! simulator once the ladder is set up. Tagging The Immortal to set up the ladder. Thanks in advance!

We will also host suspect tours in the Monotype Events room. More details on these tours will be announced soon.

For those that obtain the requirements necessary to vote, there will be two options: global ban or no ban.

Some reference GXEs and the number of games required:
Code:
Games  GXE
218    79
110    80
74     81
56     82
45     83
38     84
(These reqs are subject to change if needed)

Participating in this suspect test does not count towards the Tiering Contributor badge.

The account you achieve your reqs with must be created on or after the date of this post and must have a SS2 tag at the start of it so we can ensure that everyone laddered within the suspect period.
Example: If I were to use my own name for obtaining reqs, the account I would use would be: SS2 scp.

Tag: SS2
The Tag for this suspect will be announced once TI has set up the ladder with Sablenite banned!
it will not be MS4 (for those of you that think you're clever)

This suspect will end two weeks from the date the ladder goes up. By that time you must have identified with your reqs in the identification thread. The identification thread will go up during the suspect period and will be announced here as well as linked in the Monotype room.

A 60% majority in favor of banning Sablenite will be necessary for the ban to occur.

Intelligent and respectful debate of Sablenite in this thread is encouraged during the suspect period. One-line posts and shitposts are not. You are welcome to have more casual discussions on this topic in the monotype room.

Tasteful Music, courtesy of iVid
 
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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
The tag for this suspect is SS2 (Sablenite Suspect 2). You're free to start laddering!

edit: and posting here!
 
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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Just some quick comments/thoughts to kick this off:

I'm excited to see what people build for this meta. I think we'll generally see the tried and true stuff on the ladder because that makes it easy to get reqs, but all of our room tours as well as the suspect tours we're going to host will be a great time to experiment in the new metagame.

Among the top tier types, I think Steel benefits the most from this change. Most other top tier types had reliable answers to Mega-Sableye. As Arken/Eien pointed out in the discussion thread, Bisharp is now free to run a damage boosting item because it doesn't have to try and SD on m-sab to stand a chance in the dark matchup. Moreover, Steel will have a greater opportunity to exploit hazard stacking strategies on both Offensive (AFD's team) and Balanced (bulky emp or ferro to relieve pressure on heatran) builds without m-Sab there to control the hazard game. I'd love to see the balanced builds make a comeback, but I'm not sure they'll have much more leeway because Sub-CM Keldeo (it was commonly used to check m-sab...) and Steel Breaker Hoopa-U are everywhere.

Among lower tier types, I'm curious to see what happens with Poison. Sab was major threat. Admittedly, I'm not experienced enough with the type to really comment on the nuances of how teams will change. I do, however, think there's an opportunity for it to see more usage and improve its standing in the overall meta. Electric also has a similar opportunity to rise in usage (possibly to the current levels that grass / poison see?), which would be a good thing imo.

For Dark, I think it will be refreshing and healthy to see the type diversify. Ttar, Sharpedo, and Houndoom are all good mega-evo's, but were never worth the opportunity cost unless you specifically decided to build around them. Mandi + Ttar + regular Sab is still a great defensive core to pivot into/through. Mega-Houndoom, in particular, sticks out to me because people are generally not prepared to deal with it. That thing is busting through flying and psychic cores with a NP set. It can also be annoying for Bug and Steel simply because it has Fire STAB and a great speed tier. Fighting is annoyed by Houndoom + Sab once you remove the Breloom (scarf terrakion and gallade just invite Sab in, keldeo can still RK, though). Bondie was talking in Monotype staff chat earlier today about how a +2 M-doom can OHKO mega-diancie after rocks, so it is able to pressure Fairy teams too (nothing really wants to switch in if it carries STAB + sludge bomb + NP). Hoopa makes a nice offensive partner to pressure water teams or serve as a reliable revenge killer (if scarfed).

Overall, my initial inclination is to vote to ban Sablenite. I don't think the 'mon by itself is inherently broken, but I do think the added diversity that would come from banning it would be a good thing for the metagame.

I don't think this should count as a triple post... x_x
 

Vid

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My thoughts on Suspect Metagame

From what I have played in the past 6 hours tinkering around with multiple types with the new suspect Metagame without Mega Sableye has been a fun experience and has added some flare to what most people including me have found to be somewhat of a stale Metagame since the previous Hoopa-U suspect test. I've found that multiple types are affected by this small change and was astonished that such a small change can result in so much versatility and even giving some of top tier types some other problems to think about due to the shift in Megas on dark type teams and some types becoming more viable with Mega Sableye being absent. The three types that experience the most obvious changes are Steel, Dark, and Poison type teams.
With Mega Sableye being absent dark is obviously affected by not having a go Mega Pokemon to go to. Other options such as Mega Houndoom, Mega Sharpedo, Mega T-Tar, and even Mega Absol are being explored. This change is very good due to the fact that multiple different dark megas can be on par with each other with not one taking a commanding role like Mega Sableye did being a staple on dark teams. I've found this change also makes the Dark vs Psychic matchup a lot easier for dark type teams to win due to the fact that the other Mega tear through Psyshic teams with little to no effort lowering the most used type's viability down by a decent amount. With Sableye gone most Dark Teams get a chance to explore other options in the Megas that dark has to offer but are never used due to the opportunity cost of not using Mega Sableye. Although a Metagame without Mega Sableye is a nerf for dark it makes it so dark has to explore it's other options that normally are not used which adds diversity to the Monotype Metagame. It is also worth mentioning that mirror matchups become more interesting to say the least.
Steel has shifted to more offensive playstyle recently because of Mega Sableye due to the fact that the balanced steel teams rely on status such as toxic leech seed and hazard stacking which Mega Sableye prevents with it's Magic Bounce ability. The biggest change to steel teams is Bisharp's item. During the Mega Sableye Metagame Lum Berry bisharp was almost a must against Mega Sableye dark teams to avoid being swept by a calm mind variant. Steel definitely can run balanced more effectively in this Metagame which is a great thing adding variety to steel teams having 2 viable options instead of having 1 really good option and another option that loses to dark teams at team preview. With Steel looking a lot better in terms of options and ability to utilize the balanced playstyle more effectively it can be a lot more competitive than it was against top tier types. Defensive spike stack teams with Ferrothorn are a lot better in the new Metagame and can cause lots of headaches for top tier types that struggle against balanced steel.
Poison is a great example of an anti meta type due to the type of Pokemon it has such Nidoking/Nidoqueen, Scolipede, and Gengar all Pokemon that do very well against top tier types. Mega Sableye forces Poison users to run a dedicated check to it in haze Weezing and haze Tentacruel two Pokemon which are decent options on poison but not the optimal Pokemon needed to to become a full on anti metagame type. With Mega Sableye absent Poison teams can utilize all of the options provided to them without worrying about having a dedicated check to Mega Sableye instead worrying about what Pokemon do best against the current metagame. Poison does very well vs Psyshic(Scolipede), Water(Mega Venusaur), and Flying(Nidoking/Nidoqueen) which are three most prominent types in the metagame. This change forces top tier types to adapt and change their teams making them a bit more vulbernale to other mid tier and lower top tier types as well. On paper Poison has always looked like a good type to use but now it can be used to its fullest potential with Mega Sableye gone freeing up a slot on the team to check a major threat.
Flying
Flying is affected indirectly by this change with the rise of Poison changes being problematic for most of generic flying teams in the current Metagame to consistently beat Nidoking and Nidoqueen with their Thunderbolt plus Ice Beam coverage. With the rise of poison teams I see flying teams changing their Pokemon a bit with Torn-T rising in usage due to the fact that it does very well vs Poison type teams on top of checking Nidoking and Nidoqueen. With this change also I'm expecting to see more Volt Turn based flying teams as well as a slight rise in usage in Charizard-Y due to the fact it does very well vs Poison as well. Another minor change I can see happening is a slight rise in Lando-I usage because of how good it is very balanced steel teams and Poison as well(If Mega Sableye is ban I see it surpassing Therian form in usage for the first time ever). The impact on flying is small but a very healthy impact forcing flying teams to run different Pokemon to compensate for rise in Poison teams.
Water
The impact on water is very small. One of major things I've seen with the absence of Mega Sableye on water teams is the rise of Volcanion due to the fact that it obliterates Steel and Poison team giving the newly released Pokemon a purpose on water teams that it really never served before due to the fact that it came late in ORAS Metagame. I don't see Water teams changing that much besides a surge in number of Volcanion water teams.
Psyshic
Psyshic teams get the biggest nerf out of the top three from what I have seen. All of alternative options for a Mega on Dark are very threatening toward Psyshic type teams. Sharpedo being able to Click Crunch and OHKOing majority of a Psyshic team. It's a similar story with Mega Houndoom clicking Dark Pulse. Psyshic is impacted negatively with Mega Sableye being gone because Dark types teams have another powerful hard hitting attacker instead of dispolsable wall with most Psyshic type teams having two Mega Sableye checks in Mega Gardevoir and Victini. Mega Sableye being gone makes Psyshic teams less reliable which was one of major issues we had that Psyshic teams were dominating ladder having 10% usage surpassing Flying in usage which is a very big feat. Also with rise of Poison comes the rise of Scolipede the bug type monster that sweeps most Psyshic type teams with a Choice Banded or even Life Orbed Megahorn. This change may force Psyshic users to consider running physically defensive Jirachi or even Bronzong to beat Scolipede causing Psyshic to have less of a choice in it's last Pokemon making it less versatile as a type.
Conclusion
So far this metagame has been very exciting to play and has re sparked my interest in the current ORAS Metagame by lowering the viability of most of top tier types and giving the anti meta type (Poison) a chance to shine. I've also seen some effects with some of lower tier types such as Ice, Rock, and Grass but those types don't significantly affect the metagame although it is very cool that those types can have a chance to shine. I'm neutral towards Mega Sableye and I haven't made my decision yet because I haven't had the chance to play the metagame to it's fullest extent. But I am more inclined to say ban Mega Sableye due to the amount of versatility in a Monotype Metagame without it​
 
This seems like a pretty unnecessary suspect test. Regardless of that, I'll stay on topic for the rest of the post.

Anyway, with the rise of poison, that means more steel teams will be used to counter it, which means there will be more fighting to counter it, and therefore more psychic teams to beat the fighting. This is actually a nerf for poison.

I've been playing around with no mega-sableye flying teams lately, and they seem to be doing better than ever, which is a relief.

As a sidenote, why has every post so far been primarily about poison? It honestly isn't going to rise that much, and there are still so many other reasons why it's a lower usage type. The fact that it's weak to psychic, the most used type, and have bad matchup vs flying, the second most used type, doesn't help too much.

All I see this doing is leading to more bulky psychic teams that can handle megashark and dark losing it's primary wall/hazard control/late game cleaner/stallbreaker/etc.

Regardless of what I say, though, the result most likely isn't going to change from the last one, or the next one, for that matter.
Honestly, the odds of the results changing because of higher reqs is pretty low, although I'm sure the council will try a few more times regardless.
 
Psychic is basically at a disadvantage vs poison teams if you actually took the time to look into the matchup. Between scolipede, gengar, and a pursuit trapper, psychic builds just take an L to a lot of poison builds so Id have to disagree with you on that assumption.

You seem like you have the meta all figured out tho so I wont go to deep into your logic.
 
This seems like a pretty unnecessary suspect test. Regardless of that, I'll stay on topic for the rest of the post.

Anyway, with the rise of poison, that means more steel teams will be used to counter it, which means there will be more fighting to counter it, and therefore more psychic teams to beat the fighting. This is actually a nerf for poison.

I've been playing around with no mega-sableye flying teams lately, and they seem to be doing better than ever, which is a relief.

As a sidenote, why has every post so far been primarily about poison? It honestly isn't going to rise that much, and there are still so many other reasons why it's a lower usage type. The fact that it's weak to psychic, the most used type, and have bad matchup vs flying, the second most used type, doesn't help too much.

All I see this doing is leading to more bulky psychic teams that can handle megashark and dark losing it's primary wall/hazard control/late game cleaner/stallbreaker/etc.

Regardless of what I say, though, the result most likely isn't going to change from the last one, or the next one, for that matter.
Honestly, the odds of the results changing because of higher reqs is pretty low, although I'm sure the council will try a few more times regardless.
you said that psy and flying are 1st and second most used, respectively, but usage stats disagree with that. at 1630, psy is at 3rd, water is at first, and flying is at second. At 1730, psychic is in 4th place and flying is in third.
 
As someone who has built and played with all of Dark's mega evolutions, I'm here to throw in my 2 cents about this Sablenite
suspect! Although I'm still undecided about what I would like to vote once I achieve reqs, I'm leaning towards a no ban with reasons I will elaborate further on throughout my post.

Everyone is aware how all 18 types have at least a check to M-Sab
, so I won't delve further into that. However, I would like to touch on something that was quoted in another thread - "If you have to use a garbage mon/niche set to check a top tier sweeper, that mon is not healthy." Outside of very few types, like Poison with the Toxic Fang/Dragon Tail Nidoqueen
or Electric with the Banded Luxray
(which actually holds it's own in a LOT of matches,) and Toxic M-Ampharos
, none of these Pokemon/sets are COMPLETE garbage used just to check M-Sab. Lum Berry Bisharp
, for example, also helps vs. Scald burns (which we know happens way too much lmao,) Prankster Thunder Waves, the rare Ice Beam freezes, etc. Others; like Swords Dance Gliscor
, Lava Plume Heatran
, are actually fairly good, threatening a bunch of Balanced and Stall builds, and abusing 30% secondaries respectively.

For comparison, lets take a look at what used to be (and still is to some extent) one of the scariest cores that wall a majority of the tier and cover eachothers weaknesses exceptionally: Skarmdos
. From what I've read recently, people are saying this core is "exploitable," and not the threat it used to be. As far as I know, Sun & Moon has yet to be released, meaning no new Pokemon have been made to help each type with this core, so where did the difference come from you ask? People learned how to play around it. I'm not saying Sableye doesn't have teammates to form a core with either, the Dark core is absolutely terrifying to play against, but like Skarmdos, it is exploitable. Tyranitar
has no reliable recovery, and with the proper predictions/coverage moves it goes down fairly quick in a match. This allows ANY strong special attackers to wreak havoc against Sableye & Mandibuzz
, who despite having reliable recovery get 2HKO'd by the majority of non garbage special sweepers. I haven't even considered status, 30% moves etc, both of which easily wear down the core (unless the Dark team has Umbreon
in which case really, is that an argument? Considering Umbreon's usage is 25.31%, i don't think so.)

I won't go into the Ghost side of things, as I haven't played with that type much at all. I will however, leave a quote from a resident spookmaster! "They should just ban Ghost as a whole."

Understandingly, you guys want to make Monotype more diverse. I'm in full agreement that the meta has been stale, and I've looked at both sides of this coin as much as I could. Ground/Steel get a much better time not having to deal with M-Sab, as do hazard stacking and even stall builds. In doing this you effectively remove a type from existence, when both of those types are already mid-high tier. In my opinion, we should be looking at Psychic, Flying, and Water. These types are constantly in the top 5, most of the time taking the top 1 and 2 spots, and even sometimes filling the top 3. If we combined Dark and Ghost's usage it would add up to 9.49%. That is TWO types and it doesn't even pass Psychic's usage, barely passing Water & Flying's by .42%. Instead of throwing another type into the depths of <3% usage we should be looking into how to lower the top type's usages and in turn, that would create more diversity.


Edit: had to fix icons :(
 
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you said that psy and flying are 1st and second most used, respectively, but usage stats disagree with that. at 1630, psy is at 3rd, water is at first, and flying is at second. At 1730, psychic is in 4th place and flying is in third.
Ahh, I was using http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html for usage stats, didn't know there was one for 1730s.


Anyway, my main concern is with people voting to ban for the sake of "livening up the meta." Banning good Pokemon that aren't broken for the sake of a more interesting game doesn't seem like a good idea, and also seems hypocritical to the reason the suspect is being done.

The tiering philosophy just says to ban overcentralizing/overpowered/etc. mons, and that's it. It clearly can't be that overpowered if dark is still sitting where it is. Like i'm sora said, there isn't a type which can't beat it. And as for types like electric having to run dedicated checks, consider how types like rock/electric/etc have to run dedicated checks to a lot of things. It's a downside of an objectively worse type, but one that's inherent to it. Banning things just because they limit other types would mean that we would have to ban a lot more than just mega-sableye.

tL;DR banning Sablenite would probably increase diversity, but since it's not actually broken, voting ban would go pretty strongly against the tiering philosophy imo. Because of that, I'm going to vote No Ban.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Ahh, I was using http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html for usage stats, didn't know there was one for 1730s.


Anyway, my main concern is with people voting to ban for the sake of "livening up the meta." Banning good Pokemon that aren't broken for the sake of a more interesting game doesn't seem like a good idea, and also seems hypocritical to the reason the suspect is being done.

The tiering philosophy just says to ban overcentralizing/overpowered/etc. mons, and that's it. It clearly can't be that overpowered if dark is still sitting where it is. Like i'm sora said, there isn't a type which can't beat it. And as for types like electric having to run dedicated checks, consider how types like rock/electric/etc have to run dedicated checks to a lot of things. It's a downside of an objectively worse type, but one that's inherent to it. Banning things just because they limit other types would mean that we would have to ban a lot more than just mega-sableye.

tL;DR banning Sablenite would probably increase diversity, but since it's not actually broken, voting ban would go pretty strongly against the tiering philosophy imo. Because of that, I'm going to vote No Ban.
You should re-read the tiering philosophy. It doesn't say to only ban "overcentralizing/overpowered/etc. mons, and that's it", as you claim in this post.

Probably the most important part of the whole philosophy is this:
We will use OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. In addition to those, we will also discuss suspects through the framework of "Does it add to or subract from the metagame?".
which is qualified by this:
Suspect voters are expected to view and discuss the metagame from the perspective of multiple types, not just a single type. Included in this is the mindset that some matchups are going to be skewed and some types are going to be bad because of the inherent game mechanics such as: the type chart, priority move distribution/weakness, stat distribution among types, number of viable 'mons, and so on.
You're still entitled to vote how you please, but the point of this suspect isn't to "liven up a stale meta". The point is to test if we get a healthier metagame without mega-sableye, not just a more diverse meta (diversity is one part of a healthy meta, though).

edit: click the link in my signature to go to the updated usage stats. It has 1730 stats there.
 
This is a quick, rough Post intended only to share my thoughts as they come to me where I am going to give my thoughts on Mega Sableye according to the OU Tiering Philosophy.

- Mega Sableye is neither uncompetitive or broken.
> Uncompetitive: I would in fact say it promotes competition in that it grants Ghost, a Type who lacks decent Defog support, an answer to Hazard stacking, who otherwise struggles when it's Taunt users are removed. It also makes Dark a more competitive Type for obvious reasons. Speaking of Dark....
> Broken: Even with support from Dark's Defensive Cores, Mega Sableye still finds itself pressured by powerful Fairy STABs, Fire STABs in or out the Sun, immediate power via Band/Specs, and several Pokemon that can throw up a Sub and Set Up beside it. Even with Prankster Pre-Mega-Evo, Mega Sableye needs more than just a few CM boost to get its sweep train running. And even if it successfully manages to do so, it is still threatned physically by Pokemon who are immune to Burn. Some Pokes such as Banded Dragonite just don't give a fuck about a little Burn, and proceed to break through it. One must also consider the fact that Sableye-Mega relies on a mono-attacking Set if it is to afford staple Moves WoW, Recover, & CM, which means that Mons that resist it's STAB have a chance to reply aggressively and whittle it down into Revenge Kill range. An example of this would be anything equipped with Specs that resist Snarl/Dark Pulse, such as Hydreigon or Keldeo. I'm addition to this, Mega Sableye is also quite vulnerable to being Set up on itself... Volcarona is probably the Mon that gives Sableye the most nightmares, eating both WoW and Dark Pulse/Snarl alike while it just Dances it up. I could sit here and list the Mons that each Type has that meet the above criteria, but this is a quick, rough Post intended only to share my thoughts as they come to me, (as posted above).
> Unhealthy: the term unhealthy is defined by Smogon as "elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent". I'm this case, Mega Sableye is the element. Since I have given my reasons of why I think Sableye-Mega is neither uncompetitive or broken, allow me to elaborate of why I do not think it limits teambuilding to such An extreme extent. It's as simple as this: Mega Sableye is a Threat, just as Azumarill is a Threat, just as Scizor is a Threat, and so on. And since I think we can all agree that neither Azumarill or Scizor are uncompetitive or broken, add my reasoning of why I don't think Mega Sableye is broken, and what we get is support to the above statement. Mega Sableye is a Threat, and as such, must be prepared for. One could argue that Mega Sableye Threatens a multitude of Types (if not all of them) unlike Azumarill and Scizor, who could be considered Type-specific Threats, but I digress. What Mega Sableye demands in Teambuilding are Wallbreakers, WoW absorbers, and/or Set Up Mons (pretty much the things I listed above, again), which are all things that a Team would naturally want anyway. Are you telling me that the presence of Mega Sableye is forcing me to run Volcarona on Bug, Heatran on Steel, Band Azumarill on Water? Hell no. That being said, I do not think Mega Sableye effects the teambuilding process anymore than I think it effects the actually battle itself. And that leads us finally to the next point, whereas I will reference Smogon's further definition of Unhealthy: [Unhealthy elements are ones that] that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame. Since I have already established why I think Mega Sableye does not detriment the Teambuilding aspect at all and the battle to a certain extent, let us now identify what the undesirable effect of the Metagame is. But before I do that, lets point out something. Many Monotype players have referred to the Meta as balanced,( don't believe me? Even the op states it as such) and Usage Statistics as well as other data support this as well. Some have gone further and called it stale. But let's ask ourselves if Banning something for the sake of spicing up a Metagame that is by nature static (as in, it does not naturally shift due to the lack of intra-Tiering, unlike, say, OU does). I don't know about you, but to me, that is the exact same logic as the Genesect, Kyurem-W, and Shaymin-S Unbans. That being said, what exactly is the undesirable effect here? That Meta is a bit boring now because its been the same for so long? That it favors Offensive Steel instead of Balance? That Poison isn't used as much? I disagree, and I find these reasons invalid. The point of Banning something is to balance the Tier, to fix anything that is by definition Uncompetitive, Broken, and/or Unhealthy, and I have given my reasons as to why I do not think Mega Sableye is none of those. That being said, allow me to proceed to the main point.

Overall, in my opinion, this Suspect test is based on otherwise superficial reasons (with the only valid one being the Ghost damage control one.) What I do not think is that Mega Sableye is Uncompetitive, Broken, or Unhealthy. What I do think is that this Metagame is fine the way it is; sure it may be a little boring, but that is not, again, a valid reason, especially with the Sun and the Moon on the horizon. Hell, even scpinion himself stated that the Metagame is balanced I'm the op, in point #2. This is just a rough draft of my thoughts as I have no Battle Replays to support my argument, but I will have an updated view after I Ladder.

Thanks for reading, will try to Post something more solid I'm the future.
 
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The original Sablenite suspect recently came up in the discussion thread. The council had actually discussed retesting stuff the week before—that discussion included a retest on Sablenite. This retest is happening for two reasons:

1) There were concerns that many suspect voters used "if we ban this, Ghost will suck" as the primary reasoning for choosing not to ban Sablenite. That reasoning is antithetical to the Monotype tiering philosophy, which was still very new at the time (and people had concerns over whether it was a good idea).

2) No one really knows how a Sablenite-less ORAS meta will play. We can all theory-mon about how Type X or Type Y will be better because they don't have to use team/move slots to check Sableye-Mega. We can also theory-mon about how Sableye-Mega keeps many of the top tier ORAS threats on other types in check—facilitating the balanced meta we're currently enjoying. This is your chance to test those ideas and use actual battles to support your arguments.
The problem I have with this, is that neither address the actual arguments for why Mega Sableye is suspect-worthy at all. I don't believe it is. On the contrary, I feel like reason #2 is not a solid basis at all. Some types tend to struggle more heavily with combating Mega Sableye. Some, like Poison, have to specifically have an answer to it in order to fight back, otherwise they would simply lose to it. This is an argument made against Mega Sableye, yet people don't see that the exact same thing happens with most every other type? The large majority of types have certain specific threats they struggle very heavily against, and are forced to run multiple answers to deal with it. Ice and Fairy struggle with Mega Scizor. Flying struggles with Kyurem-Black. Water struggles against Mega Venusaur. Grass struggles with Victini, and Mega Pinsir, who also heavily threatens Fighting, Grass, and Bug. Keldeo decimates Dark. And so on, and so forth.

Why is Mega Sableye any different? Should suspect testing Mega Sableye simply happen just to "theory-mon about how Type X or Type Y will be better because they don't have to use team/move slots to check ___"? Should the same thing happen to numerous Pokemon across all types? No, that's ridiculous, that's a part of Monotype itself. Pinpointing one Pokemon over others that create the exact same teambuilding restrictions comes across as incredibly illogical to me. Mega Sableye has plenty of answers, even if some types might not have access to them, and the same goes for many other Monotype threats. To me, a suspect test for a Pokemon for these reasons should only happen if such a 'Mon creates potential teambuilding problems for the large majority of types, not just a couple or some of them. For example, Hoopa-Unbound, but that's another can of worms that isn't relevant to this discussion on why I don't think Mega Sableye should even be suspected.
 
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^ hit the nail on the head imo. Also, I don't know why everyone cares so much about poison now; it's pretty much solved to the point of the top 8 or so mons with everything else being subpar for a poison team. The only thing that we can count on to make poison better in monotype is gen 7 introducing good poison mons (hopefully) and trying to mess with gen 6 monotype to make low tier types slightly better is, frankly, a waste of time.
 
Finally found time to post my thoughts about Mega Sableye. Enoch summed up brilliantly why it should be left alone, but there's a couple specific reasons why I'm strongly for no ban.

1st off, it's not broken, so why are we suspecting it? The last suspect it was proven that every type has some type of check to it, but its about making sure you don't allow it to set up (and even with that, not all Mega Sab's run CM, Utility has been pretty popular as well). The biggest argument I saw was that if Mega Sableye is banned, Poison has the potential to be a great anti meta type to use, since supposedly does not have good checks to it outside of Godchef's Nidoqueen set. I want to put that to rest, because that is absolutely false. As a person that uses Poison frequently, I can safely say that Mega Sableye is managable, and there are other options to check it. Tentacruel is able to check it, thanks to its great Special Defense, and Acid Spray + Scald. Rest Talk Tenatcruel I've also seen being used so that tenta can keep its help up (and for the record, this set can be used for set up mons other than Mega Sableye, so its not overcentralizing). There's also Haze users, like Tenta, Golbat, Crobat, and Weezing. They can eliminate its stat boosts, and make it much easier to handle. Enoch definitely summed up the fact that it is a threat to prepare for, and there are a bunch of other threats, that's the nature of battling, preparation. Plus, if you want to know a mon that really gives types, Mega Scizor is a prime example. It has the ability to severely threaten Ice and Rock, but is Mega Scizor broken? No, it isn't, you just have to prepare for it. Mega Sableye is no exception, and in my opinion, compared to Mega Scizor, it's actually less threatening.


2nd of all, it'll promote a more offensive metagame once its banned. iVid definitely made some interesting points, especially with Steel, but, once Mega Sableye is banned, I see Dark being more offensive-oriented. Let's say Mega Houndoom becomes the most used mega, how would you plan to handle it, noting it has Nasty Plot so it has the ability to wallbreak a vast majority of the metagame? You'd probably need someone fast to check it/revenge kill it. Same goes for Mega Tyranitar, who, after 1 DDance, has the ability to 2KO Skarmory with Stone Edge (just example of how powerful this thing really is), how would you plan to defensively check that? Now, granted, a lot of people like using the offensive archetype in their teambuilding, myself included, but, a metagame without variation would be kinda stale to play, wouldn't it? It's very refreshing to see different types of teams, ranging from Balanced, Stall, Offensive, ect, its much more fun than versing only offensive teams majority of the time.


I sincerely hope people think through how they vote for this, I personally think it was a big mistake to Suspect Mega Sableye again, and as Mystletainn pointed out above, nothing was addressed as to why Mega Sableye is suspect worthy (especially for a 2nd time). It doesn't go with any of the current Monotype Tiering Philosophies put in place, other than "Ghost will suck without Mega Sableye, and that is a big reason why people voted no ban the first time," and "No one knows how a Mega Sableye-less meta will play." What I want to know is how either of those go with "Keep the banlist simple," "Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy," or "No single type should be overly powerful." The reasoning makes little sense in my head, and along with the points I made above, I strongly urge people vote No Ban.

Thank you for reading.
 
Mega-leye is definitely a threat that almost every mono team has to prepare for, especially the lower tier types that don't have the natural offensive clout to wallbreak it.

But is it limiting? Restrictive? Over-centralizing? I don't think so.

I do think it's worth considering that a LOT of the checks people list for dealing with mega-sableye only work in a 1v1 scenario, whereas Dark has a whole five other mons to support it. For example, they can easily switch in mandibuzz or tyranitar in on special and physical wall breakers; excepting fairy STAB (which a lot of low-tier types lack access to).
 
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Ah Finally, I think with this decision monotype will be a balanced tier. Ok I here a lot of you saying that Mega-Sableye isn't very detrimental to Teambuilding and is only comparable to the likes of scizor and azu....... :toast:
Let me tell you the difference between them. When you are making a team you don't have to go "Oh how do I deal with Azu and Scizor", unless it is a counter type. Because typically a solid natural team will already have answers to those. My main point to prove is that while Mega-Sableye is not broken he is very cancerous, unhealthy and detrimental to the metagame.

Stall vs MegaSab
Back in my hayday I ran a bomb ass stall flying team. Nearly unbeatable. It got hit hard with chari-x ban but was able to make a team similar in strength thanks to zapdos. However I auto-loss a match because of Mega-Sab. So I was thinking well how do I counter it? Magic Bounce Xatu can surprise it with toxic, Fling Gliscor and SD Gliscor. However that's where I hit the wall that I think is common with a lot of types that don't have anything close to the flexibility of flying. Which is that do I deliberately weaken my team to deal with this obscure but not super common threat or make my team solid and just auto lose. This is the main thing that I believe gives credit to my points. Mega-Sab has this effect on many types barring Water, Fairy, and Fire. Which results in Overcentralization, and obscure teambuilding which in turn makes an unhealthy meta. That's what I think people are really feeling when they say stale. It's not diversity moreso A breather when it comes to TB.

How Banning it improves the meta
Well you see for most threats like Specs Keldeo, you run a special tank or immunity to defeat it or even a soft check. Or even things like Medicham you can use their predictability to your advantage although you may get crushed by a better player. The problem with MegaSab is that it takes too much specialization to deal with. I believe it is comparable to mega slowbro for this reason. For MegaBro if you didn't have taunt on a mon it may be against or a strong(banded/specs/LO) dark/elec attacker you were done. It was unhealthy as on nearly every team barring a few types you'd have to keep it in mind exclusively. For MegaSab I think through team support he can be arguably broken, but that's what I'm hear to state. Let's say you manage to toxic the MegaSab. Umbreon swoops in to undo your trump card just like that. If you opt to try to defeat through raw force via MixAttackers or Specs/Band you will run into a problem. While good players will be wary of such potential threats it is very easy for the Mega Sableye user to just recover and counter play from there and use cleric support later in the match. Lum Berry is a very good way to deal with MegaSab but in most cases you neuter your offensive mon because it isn't as situational as lum and better in general. Now with this specialization comes a problem. For top tier types and just more flexible types the adjustment to deal with Mega Sab, while detrimental to your team and is painfully witholding your team's potential isn't world ending. I think the main problem is with mid-tier to low-tier types. GodChef is a very commended poison user, reaching #1 multiples times with the types and is a prime example of what I like about monotype and the problem with MegaSab. Making underused shine through good play. GodChef formed his poison team to counter the tier in a way and was very successful. However, as mentioned before he has run into a wall with MegaSab. He is forced to run Rivalry, Poison Fang Nidoqueen to beat it. That is ridiculous, you can try to down play poison's ability as a type but since Gen VI it may not enjoyed general use proved to be a powerful force in competitive events. For someone as good as GodChef whom's ability to Adapt the type to the metagame(Much like Tesla w/ Electric) to stoop that low to deal with a single mon is just silly and unhealthy.

TL;DR The problem with sableye is that unlike most mons it doesn't add to the metagame with further skillful play, counter play and etc... It just hinders all that as it directs teams to push away from better options to be able to deal with it. There is a ratio when it comes to flexibility and dealing with MegaSab. The ratio dropoff is so huge that MegaSab unnecessarily burdens the Meta and for the sake of a better tier/teambuilding should be Banned. Overcentralization is unexcusable. Let's Make Monotype Great Again
 
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Ah Finally, I think with this decision monotype will be a balanced tier. Ok I here a lot of you saying that Mega-Sableye isn't very detrimental to Teambuilding and is only comparable to the likes of scizor and azu....... :toast:
Let me tell you the difference between them. When you are making a team you don't have to go "Oh how do I deal with Azu and Scizor", unless it is a counter type. Because typically a solid natural team will already have answers to those. My main point to prove is that while Mega-Sableye is not broken he is very cancerous, unhealthy and detrimental to the metagame.

Stall vs MegaSab
Back in my hayday I ran a bomb ass stall flying team. Nearly unbeatable. It got hit hard with chari-x ban but was able to make a team similar in strength thanks to zapdos. However I auto-loss a match because of Mega-Sab. So I was thinking well how do I counter it? Magic Bounce Xatu can surprise it with toxic, Fling Gliscor and SD Gliscor. However that's where I hit the wall that I think is common with a lot of types that don't have anything close to the flexibility of flying. Which is that do I deliberately weaken my team to deal with this obscure but not super common threat or make my team solid and just auto lose. This is the main thing that I believe gives credit to my points. Mega-Sab has this effect on many types barring Water, Fairy, and Fire. Which results in Overcentralization, and obscure teambuilding which in turn makes an unhealthy meta. That's what I think people are really feeling when they say stale. It's not diversity moreso A breather when it comes to TB.

How Banning it improves the meta
Well you see for most threats like Specs Keldeo, you run a special tank or immunity to defeat it or even a soft check. Or even things like Medicham you can use their predictability to your advantage although you may get crushed by a better player. The problem with MegaSab is that it takes too much specialization to deal with. I believe it is comparable to mega slowbro for this reason. For MegaBro if you didn't have taunt on a mon it may be against or a strong(banded/specs/LO) dark/elec attacker you were done. It was unhealthy as on nearly every team barring a few types you'd have to keep it in mind exclusively. For MegaSab I think through team support he can be arguably broken, but that's what I'm hear to state. Let's say you manage to toxic the MegaSab. Umbreon swoops in to undo your trump card just like that. If you opt to try to defeat through raw force via MixAttackers or Specs/Band you will run into a problem. While good players will be wary of such potential threats it is very easy for the Mega Sableye user to just recover and counter play from there and use cleric support later in the match. Lum Berry is a very good way to deal with MegaSab but in most cases you neuter your offensive mon because it isn't as situational as lum and better in general. Now with this specialization comes a problem. For top tier types and just more flexible types the adjustment to deal with Mega Sab, while detrimental to your team and is painfully witholding your team's potential isn't world ending. I think the main problem is with mid-tier to low-tier types. GodChef is a very commended poison user, reaching #1 multiples times with the types and is a prime example of what I like about monotype and the problem with MegaSab. Making underused shine through good play. GodChef formed his poison team to counter the tier in a way and was very successful. However, as mentioned before he has run into a wall with MegaSab. He is forced to run Rivalry, Poison Fang Nidoqueen to beat it. That is ridiculous, you can try to down play poison's ability as a type but since Gen VI it may not enjoyed general use proved to be a powerful force in competitive events. For someone as good as GodChef whom's ability to Adapt the type to the metagame(Much like Tesla w/ Electric) to stoop that low to deal with a single mon is just silly and unhealthy.

TL;DR The problem with sableye is that unlike most mons it doesn't add to the metagame with further skillful play, counter play and etc... It just hinders all that as it directs teams to push away from better options to be able to deal with it. There is a ratio when it comes to flexibility and dealing with MegaSab. The ratio dropoff is so huge that MegaSab unnecessarily burdens the Meta and for the sake of a better tier/teambuilding should be Banned. Overcentralization is unexcusable. Let's Make Monotype Great Again
I can understand a few of your points, and surely acknowledge them, but there are things you wrote that I think you should reconsider.

The first thing, this annoyed me the most, Gochef's Nidoqueen set is not the only thing on Poison that can check Mega Sableye. In my write up above I mentioned Tentacruel is a great check to it, and a Haze users can cancel all of its stat boosts, which Poison has a good selection of.

With the above said, I want to touch up on your point of centralization. I think you should give examples of what sets exactly that applies to, what abscure sets are used to check Mega Sableye and Mega Sableye only. Centralization is essentially the metagame revolving around 1 thing, if you want a good example, you could claim Psychic/Flying could be overcentralizing due to the fact they're so promenent in the current meta. Preparation is very different to this, and this is where I feel Mega Sableye stands. Preparation is having 1 or more checks to something that threatens your team. That's just the nature of Monotype, you have to be prepared for certain things because there will always be lopsided matchups, for example fire vs grass, Dark vs Psychic, or even as far as Mega Scizor vs Ice. Should we nerf these just because they have advantages? No, that would be obsurd, it just means you have to have something to be able to prepare for that matchup. The last suspect, as I already said, it was proven Mega Sab was not broken, how is it any different now than it was then?

Though I think parts of what you said are thought out (although, with your broken team support point, Umbreon is not used very much, due to the fact that Dark needs the extra team slots), I can't agree with banning it just because people don't prepare to take it on when it comes up. It's just like not preparing for a widespread threat like Azumarill, it has checks, use them! Mega Sableye is no exception.
 
I can understand a few of your points, and surely acknowledge them, but there are things you wrote that I think you should reconsider.

The first thing, this annoyed me the most, Gochef's Nidoqueen set is not the only thing on Poison that can check Mega Sableye. In my write up above I mentioned Tentacruel is a great check to it, and a Haze users can cancel all of its stat boosts, which Poison has a good selection of.

With the above said, I want to touch up on your point of centralization. I think you should give examples of what sets exactly that applies to, what abscure sets are used to check Mega Sableye and Mega Sableye only. Centralization is essentially the metagame revolving around 1 thing, if you want a good example, you could claim Psychic/Flying could be overcentralizing due to the fact they're so promenent in the current meta. Preparation is very different to this, and this is where I feel Mega Sableye stands. Preparation is having 1 or more checks to something that threatens your team. That's just the nature of Monotype, you have to be prepared for certain things because there will always be lopsided matchups, for example fire vs grass, Dark vs Psychic, or even as far as Mega Scizor vs Ice. Should we nerf these just because they have advantages? No, that would be obsurd, it just means you have to have something to be able to prepare for that matchup. The last suspect, as I already said, it was proven Mega Sab was not broken, how is it any different now than it was then?

Though I think parts of what you said are thought out (although, with your broken team support point, Umbreon is not used very much, due to the fact that Dark needs the extra team slots), I can't agree with banning it just because people don't prepare to take it on when it comes up. It's just like not preparing for a widespread threat like Azumarill, it has checks, use them! Mega Sableye is no exception.
Haze.... and then what? All the mons that learn haze lose to sableye and lack recovery (ex: Weezing and Golbat .-.). T. Spikes aren't an option either. You could have a stall war but that's where defog+cleric support swoops in again.

Centralization is not being prominent. Centralization is an over focus on a specific mon or etc. So no Psychic/Flying and other top tier types are not overcentralizing but contribute to the majority of the metagame due to their use. I hate that misconception of centralization. Fire vs grass isn't unwinnable... and etc. but that's besides the point there is more than one mon that results in the usual curbstomps that follow type disadvantage matchups. The problem with your analogy is that the types Sableye is suppressing and diminishing have no natural weakness to dark or ghost for that matter at all. So I don't know why you would make that point or comparison. Let's not make assertions on the last suspect either. This suspect is different because now that ghost is so far gone people may vote differently. That and he has been in the conversation for a long time and is super controversial. Sableye isn't a widespread threat like azumarill with dark being the 10th most used type at only 5.1%. That and to beating azu is very straight forward as compared to MegaSab. Seriously, how diminishing is it to check/counter azu. You can make a regular team without azu in mind and still be able to handle it comfortably that is why just labeling MegaSab as a threat is ultimately an oversight and a bad comparison. Can you really claim that you have to keep azu on the top of your mind for every team you make? Mega Sableye is not common enough to be super beneficial defeating but not uncommon enough to just ignore. The problem is that the committment to stopping MegaSab can be bizarre and even then still only a soft check/counter. It is unhealthy to the metagame and banning it is the next step to making Monotype a better tier. Also very minor point, but playing suspect ladder I haven't seen any ill effect of his absence. Only good can come out of this decision. Ban
 

scpinion

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To respond to some people that are comparing Mega-Sableye to other Pokemon such as Mega-Scizor or Mega-Pinsir: they affect the metagame in completely different ways.

Scizor, in particular, threatens Ice, Fairy, and Rock because the types are weak to Steel-type attacks. It plows through these teams because they don't have reliable answers or switchins. People that play these types regularly have adapted and carry dedicated Scizor checks. Pretty much every other type naturally checks Scizor just by building a team that is generally competitive in the overall Metagame.

If we're making the comparison to Mega-Scizor, that means Mega-Sableye should only be doing this to types like Ghost, Fighting, or Psychic—types that are weak to its STABs or it has a natural advantage over b/c of the type chart. That isn't the case; Mega-Sab has an excellent matchup with more than 70% of the metagame and requires almost every single team to run a dedicated check. Water (Scald/Keldeo/Azu/Volcanion), Fairy, Flying (Zard-Y, RestTalk M-Gyara, Gliscor, Toge), and Fire are the only things that just naturally check m-sab when building a team. Every other type must adapt their team building to it significantly.

For top tier types, it isn't particularly difficult, but it does centralize the meta around particular sets/builds (e.g. Mega-Garde on Psy or Lum Bish on Steel). However, for the lower tier types they're forced to utilize the niche checks that most of us are familiar with and are generally bad in the overall meta. It is this centralization on both top and lower tier types that I, and many others, think is unhealthy.

There isn't another Pokemon that single-handedly has the same effect on our Metagame.

No one* believes Mega-Sab is outright broken (like Genesect, Gunk Shot Greninja, or Talonflame). We're not arguing that it is. We believe removing the enormous pressure to check Mega-Sableye will lead to a healthier metagame.

Without Mega-Sableye we (not a comprehensive list):
  • don't completely kill Dark; it will still be good without m-sab. If anything it is a great thing b/c we'll see more than one Dark build on a regular basis.
  • free up valuable move slots (possibly entire team slots) on types like Electric, Poison, and Grass, which might let them rise in usage.
  • remove the centralization around particular sets/builds on top tier types like Psychic, Steel, and Fighting to let those become more diverse.
Objectively, each of those things are good for the metagame. Those of you that plan to vote no ban, will you list out Mega-Sableye's positive influences on the metagame so people that are undecided can see how they compare?
(please don't say "it keeps ghost relevant"...)

*except iEntei
 
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Just a quick input on M-Scizor and M-Sableye comparisons. M-Sableye is definitely effective against types outside of Ghost, Fighting, and Psychic, but M-Scizor is ALSO effective against types outside of Rock, Ice, and Fairy. Its solid typing and bulk allows it to grab an SD or two and lets it sweep late game against a multitude of types. Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Normal, Poison, and Psychic will just find themselves helpless at the end - assuming the stars have lined up. M-Scizor is very potent against a multitude of types. Varying degrees of effect, maybe, but the same is true of M-Sableye. If M-Sableye is banned, I think M-Scizor would have to go too because they're more similar than what most people would agree with. M-Sableye just happens to be more defensive in its approach. I'm in no way saying M-Scizor should be banned though just because I think it's similar to M-Sableye.

M-Sableye has this thing going where it's affecting the high tier types, but shouldn't this effect this be welcome? Without M-Sableye, types in the upper echelons are free to use more optimal movesets. As was mentioned in the other thread, LO Bisharp and Specs Keldeo aren't as amazing with M-Sab in the mix and would have to consider Lum Berry or Sub CM (sub-optimal sets), but I think that's great! LO Bisharp and Specs Keldeo are AMAZING sweepers and wallbreakers. To have something discourage such powerful sets should be welcome, right? Or should we just allow those Pokemon spam those sets without reproach?

Dark will not suddenly drop off the face of Monotype if M-Sableye is gone, I can agree with that. It would be fun to see more Dark builds, but I'm not hopeful that it would be for the best. The high tier types affected by Sableye can go back to using their optimal sets and they can resume furthering the gap between it, the middle tier types, and the low tier types. Without M-Sab, we'll lose a type that rightfully threatens the top tier and middle tier types without being impossible to beat.

"Back in my hayday I ran a bomb ass stall flying team. Nearly unbeatable... However I auto-loss a match because of Mega-Sab." Shouldn't M-Sab be welcome then? If a team was nearly unbeatable, I would think having more options to stop such an overpowered team would be a great addition to the metagame.

I really can't say much about M-Sab's effect on the lesser used types. It's true. They all get destroyed, but again, M-Scizor has that same effect on those types. Maybe I've just lost sympathy for the lesser used types with the philosophy we've adopted. If you want to earnestly compete, choosing a type that isn't screwed over by popular Pokemon like M-Scizor or M-Sableye should be the first step. Man, I sound like an asshole no matter how I read what I say. Ghost stays somewhat relevant with M-Sab.
 
Yeah this is way too long. Sorry. Read what you want, I don't blame you if you skip parts. (Especially the counterarguments)

How has no one brought up the ridiculously uncompetitive Mega Sableye vs Mega Sableye matchup? It's literally a race for who gets the first critical hit. So competitive!

Mega Sableye might not be broken. Who knows? But, I do know it's uncompetitive.

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.

Does this not describe Mega Sableye against most types? A few notes: "overwhelmingly a team match up issue" "best moves made each time by a standard team" Take the best players of Electric and Poison and give them a standard team without Mega Sableye checks. Enjoy how often they win against non-Dark mains with Mega Sableye without significant RNG. Spoilers: not often.

D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).

Read: "excessively specific counters" so... Rivalry + Poison Fang + Dragon Tail Nidoqueen? Toxic Mega Ampharos? Electro Ball Mega Manectric? This is uncompetitive, as more skilled players must use bad sets to even hope to win.

For obvious reasons, I won't compare Mega Sableye to the horrors of OHKO, Moody, and Evasion, all of which are disgustingly uncompetitive. I will say it is at least somewhat uncompetitive to require RNG to beat Mega Sableye. Demanding a Scald burn within the first try, demanding a Lava Plume burn within the first try, and demanding an Iron Head flinch on the first try or consecutively is unreasonable. You can play as skillfully as you want, if you don't get your 30%, which, I will note for the uneducated, is in fact below 50%, you've simply lost to no fault of your own.

Uncompetitive does not mean it reduces competition in the sense that more Pokemon or types can be used. Uncompetitive means it's a reduction in focus on skill and increase in focus on a mechanic that can circumvent a more skilled player beating a less skilled player. It's reducing the competitive nature of the game.

The problem with Mega Sableye is that it forces a supermajority of types to respond to it directly in some way, and a third of those types to do so in a suboptimal way. If that's not overcentralizing, I don't know what is. No other Pokemon requires 66% of types to specifically think "I need a Mega Sableye check." and 22% of types to say "I literally cannot viably check Mega Sableye"
Read this and understand: Mega Scizor preys on teams that very noticeably already lose to Steel anyway. Mega Sableye compromises teams that would not necessarily otherwise lose to Dark.

For the notion of Mega Scizor, Ice, Rock, and Fairy lose to Steel anyway. Bug teams can easily just use Choice Band Scizor and continue to wreak havoc on Ice, Rock, and Fairy; Bug uses Mega Pinsir more anyway, so I won't go into that further. Mega Scizor is not the problem, the problem is the simple nature of the type matchup. Unfortunate that GameFreak has made their game in such a way that this exists, but it's not a problem we can address without fundamentally changing a huge part of the metagame. Banning Mega Scizor has huge implications for more than just Steel vs Ice / Rock / Fairy.

And here's the difference, Mega Scizor is what I would call a "win more" Pokemon in these one-sided matchups. It makes the matchup even more difficult, but the starting point was already very tilted in its team's favor. It is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. If it's gone, Clefable and Togekiss will still run Fire-type coverage to help them beat Steel-types. Ice teams will still run Fire-type coverage as well for the same reason. Similarly, Mega Aggron Rock still needs Fire Punch to hit Steel-types. These are examples of these types trying to check Mega Scizor, but they do it with methods that are not suboptimal and benefit their type regardless of Mega Scizor.

Let's look at Mega Sableye's effect on the metagame and contrast it with what we now know. You cannot even begin to compare Mega Scizor to the overcentralizing problem that is Mega Sableye.

Do you think you'll ever seen a Rivalry+Poison Fang+Dragon Tail Nidoqueen without Mega Sableye? How about Toxic Mega Ampharos, losing the ability to use RestTalk, a far superior set? How about Electro Ball Mega Manectric, a move that is so bad I'm not even sure I got the name right? What about Lum Berry Bisharp, which is quite literally worse than Life Orb? What about Mega Diancie on Rock, when Mega Aggron is a superior Mega Evolution for the type? What about double Ice-type STAB attack Lapras, which has the niche of Freeze-Dry already? What about Grass having to use Serperior or Whimsicott to even have a chance, which by the way, Whimsicott won't even win if Mega Sableye gets a Calm Mind on the switch in?

This is the main difference between Mega Sableye and all the other Pokemon that are commonly complained about. Mega Sableye tilts matchups that Dark would not necessarily have an overwhelming advantage in otherwise. Remove Mega Scizor? Steel and Bug still have good matchups against. Remove Mega Sableye? The matchups are a lot more fair and winnable for the opposing team. Mega Scizor is in fact a very potent and threatening SD sweeper. It does not however force auto-win conditions against many types on its own. In the few types that it almost wins on its own, it does so in matchups that its typing should beat anyway. This is not at all similar to Mega Sableye, which does force auto-win conditions against many types by itself to such an extent that these types are forced into using horrible sets to attempt to stop it.

I legitimately do not know if you're joking when you say that Mega Sableye is healthy for the metagame by being an answer to "such powerful" sets, although I truly hope you are. That is just so...

Anyway, the top types are types that naturally already beat Mega Sableye. Water has Azumarill, Fairy has matchup, Psychic has Mega Gardevoir, Flying has Mega Charizard Y and Mega Gyarados. Are you seriously implying the top types are being "held back" from optimal sets? None of these Pokemon are using specific sets to beat Mega Sableye, and they're all perfectly viable in spite of Mega Sableye. No, the types that have the most to lose if we keep Mega Sableye are all the types that are not at the very top right now. In fact, Mega Sableye is the easiest Mega Evolution for most of these types to beat. Flying, Fairy, Water, and Psychic all prefer Mega Sableye to any other viable Dark-type Mega Evolution.

If you want to reduce the gap between the top types and the worse types, Mega Sableye is one of the reasons it's so big. Other types are forced to make sacrifices on their team to check Mega Sableye, while the top types do not. With only 6 Pokemon in the restricted environment of Monotype, every additional forced usage of a check hurts the type and makes it weaker. Poison is the best example, other examples include Fighting's lack of Moxie Heracross and Mega Heracross usage. Oh and by the way, Choice Specs Keldeo is far from being bad against Mega Sableye with the help of Hydro Pump and Scald, so I have no idea what you're trying to say. SubCM is a counter, Choice Specs is a check. You can certainly do with Choice Specs if you run Hydro Pump.

Balance and Speed: Increase in Psychic usage is good for Poison. So is increase in Fighting usage. I have no idea what a Mega Sableye-less Flying team is. And "more bulky psychic teams that can handle megashark" what does this even mean? Psychic teams will want to beat Mega Sharpedo on Water regardless of whether Mega Sharpedo is on Dark. Further, a Mega Sharpedo answer usually comes hand in hand with a Mega Gyarados answer, meaning it's even more valuable regardless of Dark.

i'm sora: Lum Berry Bisharp is objectively worse than Life Orb Bisharp. You should not be using Lum Berry to avoid Scald burns because Bisharp should not be taking Scald in the first place with its awful Special Defense from offensive foes and defensive foes should not be given the opportunity to Scald successfully against Bisharp in the first place. Further, Prankster Thunder Wave is far from a threat to Bisharp. The only users are Pokemon that Bisharp will gladly take paralysis to knock out, such as Klefki, which can set up screens and Whimsicott, which can Encore a Mega Scizor into continuing to Swords Dance. Further, Swords Dance Gliscor isn't even an argument. Flying uses Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard Y, and Landorus, while Ground uses Landorus and Mega Camerupt. This is just a false example that looks like it's valid, but actually isn't. Lava Plume Heatran relies on a 30% that you must get early on before Mega Sableye sets up too far, not even close to being a competitive answer. Anyway, Dark will not be a bad type without Mega Sableye, as we do know Mega Sableye is the worst viable Mega Evolution against types such as Psychic and Fairy.

Enoch: Warning. I got upset. I sincerely apologize for being rude. You didn't even have the right definition of uncompetitive, and no one said it's broken. Anyway, onto the unhealthy argument.

First, yes. Threats are responded to. However, Mega Slowbro was a threat too, but we banned it because it was too difficult to prepare for and it was unreasonable to expect people to do so. Mega Sableye, in my opinion, is similarly (not on that level though) unreasonable to expect people to prepare for. You can't just say those words and call it a day. What if I said, in an obviously joking fashion, "Mega Salamence is a threat, and as such, must be prepared for?" You'd laugh me out of the forums. It makes no sense to demand for people to prepare for threats that they simply do not have the resources to prepare for.

Azumarill and Mega Scizor have nothing to do with Mega Sableye. I have already addressed Mega Scizor. For Azumarill, ...I literally have no idea why you even brought this Pokemon up... No one prepares for specifically Azumarill because it's not a centralizing threat. I'm just so lost for words.

You can't just say "but I digress" when the point you were making was completely valid and pertinent to the subject! Mega Sableye directly affects many types, which Mega Scizor and Azumarill do not. This is why Mega Sableye is centralizing and those two are not! Why did you say you digress when you were on the right track to understanding why your point is wrong?! I'm so upset right now because this would have saved me so much effort.

Wallbreakers? Are you joking? Physical wallbreakers must do over 66% damage to beat Mega Sableye because Will-O-Wisp will halve their next hit. Special wallbreakers need to deal at least 60% because Mega Sableye will Calm Mind and reduce the damage of their next hit. Oh, and to make matters even worse for special wallbreakers, they must be in before Mega Sableye gets even one Calm Mind. If Mega Sableye gets a Calm Mind as they switch into it, enjoy! You must now be capable of dealing at least 87% damage prior to any Calm Mind boosts. Good luck with that. Only certain wallbreakers are powerful enough to do even the former, and you can't reasonably ask everyone to have one. Where is your wallbreaker on Dark, on Steel, on Electric, on Poison, on Ice, on Grass?

WoW Absorbers? What does this even mean? Conkeldurr is a Will-O-Wisp absorber, and does absolutely 0 to beat Mega Sableye. Chansey is a Will-O-Wisp absorber, does it do anything? How about Heatran? Lava Plume from 252 Special Attack boosted by Flash Fire does not 2HKO after one Calm Mind. You are required to get your burn on the first try to win. 30%? Have fun with your uncompetitive mechanic. Your Will-O-Wisp absorber must in addition to being a Will-O-Wisp absorber, must also be either a wallbreaker or a setup Pokemon. That is not a reasonable demand for most types.

Setup Pokemon? They must be able to absorb Will-O-Wisp if physical or must use a faster setup move if special, and this is not something you can just demand from every type.

You cannot simply say these things and think everyone can do it. Why do you think Dark's only answer is their own Mega Sableye to get a 50/50 or a suboptimal Lum Berry Bisharp? Why do you think Electric, Poison, Ice, and others don't even have answers? Asking for a wallbreaker that can break Mega Sableye or for a setup Pokemon that can absorb Will-O-Wisp and setup faster than Mega Sableye is unreasonable.

In regards to your closing paragraph, why does the proximity of Sun and Moon result in trying to make a more perfect metagame a bad decision? Did we not play BW Monotype in MPL? Do we not play DPP/BW/XY Monotype in room tours? If anything, I believe we need to work harder than ever while we still have time to focus on ORAS Monotype because after Sun and Moon we may not have this opportunity again.

Mystletainn: Yeah, other threats being similar to Mega Sableye is all wrong. Read the Mega Scizor explanation, and nothing even comes close. There's a difference between Flying needing to check Ice and Electric needing to check Mega Sableye. Flying is checking a type that has a great offensive type advantage, and in doing so well help it against other types using Ice-type coverage moves. Electric is checking one specific Pokemon on a team that otherwise it has a chance at beating. By the way, Mega Sableye is not just affecting types that use absurd answers. See things such as needing multiple Choice Band wallbreakers on Dragon, needing Guts Heracross / SubCM Keldeo, needing Lum Berry Bisharp. You said you need a Pokemon to create problems for a large majority of types. You want a majority? Here you go: Dragon, Fighting, Dark, Electric, Ghost, Normal, Poison, Rock, Grass, Steel, Psychic, and Ice. 12 out of 18 types that are restricted in some shape or form due to Mega Sableye alone. That's 66%, a supermajority.

Arash: Poison is a legitimate, good type that cannot be used because of one Pokemon. How is this not a problem? It's not a low tier type at all if you don't consider Mega Sableye.

Dece1t: Point #1: First, things do not need to be broken to be uncompetitive. Okay, moving on. Rest Talk Tentacruel... Haze... How on earth is Haze a legitimate answer to Mega Sableye? Haze temporarily removes boosts that Mega Sableye can regain. How is Rest Talk Tentacruel a legitimate set when it cannot run all three of Rapid Spin, Scald, Toxic Spikes? How is Acid Spray Tentacruel going to stop Mega Sableye when Tentacruel has no real recovery and will be chipped down throughout a match preventing it from doing its 4 turns of set up "check"?

Point #2: You are aware Mega Sableye is a stallbreaker, right? If anything, Mega Sableye is preventing team archetypes because of how centralizing it is. It improves diversity.

And, if a community votes incorrectly because of poor reasoning, should they not revisit such a vote? I seriously don't understand why that is so incomprehensible.

On your second post, I won't explain again why your proposed checks are bad. Crazy Horse gave an incredible answer to you, and I truly hope you read it. You asked for specific obscure sets that check only Mega Sableye. Read the thread, we've been talking about them. Centralization is not necessarily revolving around usage, it's revolving around a Pokemon. Monotype is forced to build almost every team with Mega Sableye in mind. That's centralization. Mega Sableye does not perform extraordinarily well because we've been forced to prepare so ridiculously much for it. Further, Umbreon is a key member of Dark stall teams. Show me the viable Mega Sableye check on Ice that does not require an out of place, suboptimal move please?


I'll reverberate scp's question: Why is Mega Sableye a competitive, valuable part of Monotype that is more beneficial to the metagame if not removed from it?
 

MZ

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I'll reverberate scp's question: Why is Mega Sableye a competitive, valuable part of Monotype that is more beneficial to the metagame if not removed from it?
Because it exists in the metagame. The onus is on people who want it banned to prove why we're better off without it. It's not on people to prove that the status quo should remain. I've just been following the discussion while being too lazy to go for reqs but there's a ton of questions like how does it compare to scizor and why do we need it and they just aren't really relevant compared to the subject at hand. Whether or not it has a negative affect similar to scizor's doesn't actually matter if you want to prove that it has a negative effect which is so great that it should be banned. Personally I didn't think so last time and don't think so now since there's always certain threats that are dumb for certain types and sure it's worse for more matchups than just a sharpedo vs psychic HO but it's also one of those things where your one type has to get it together and try to blanket cover threats and beating sableye has a lot in common with beating general bulky shit like it's mostly worse for poison and other shitty or CT'ey types and otherwise just a generally good mon. At this point though it feels more like a tossup based on how much you hate it rather than people really throwing anything conclusive out there so who knows.
 
Overcentralizing? What? Just because several types need to run counters to it makes it bad for the meta? Of course strong mons need to be prepared for. That's part of the game.

You know what else everything in the game save a few types has to prepare for? Heatran (basically the steel core). Every type needs to ensure that it can break that core. If you cannot you may as well throw your team in the garbage. Its so centralizing that HP Ground Volcarona is a standard mon on bug. (Your only other option is Hera who gets walled by Skarm and Mega Hera is too slow for the rest of the meta). Its an incredibly stupid set that everyone uses because flash fire Heatran is that centralizing. Wheras that slot could better be used with Giga Drain and roost. Or just some power via bug buzz. Why aren't we looking at Heatran? Because that would be crazy, insane, and pointless. So why are we looking a Mega Sab just because it restricts team building in arguably positive ways. *Points at Arken*.

Why make poison a fraction of a fraction better when that isn't part of the philosophy. If you were worried about that then think of how much ghost usage will drop. You can argue that poison will gain more than ghost will lose. But poison is not the only type that will benefit from this ban. As many users have said flying and other top types were much better before mega sab came along. And they will gain a boost in strength as well. All this seems to point to is just solidifying the positions each type is already in. The top types stay top. The Low types stay low. And the mid types are well... mid. There is no evidence that any shift will happen in the meta, only that it will be "more interesting". More interesting being a very poor argument since what is interesting to one user is not the same for the rest.

There seems to be a lot of favortism towards poison in this discussion and bettering it as a type. I find it very unhealthy to try and ban just to make X type better. Something many users and Council members have said before me. Which is why I cannot fathom why this suspect exists.
 
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