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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

I played the ND Ladder for a good bit before and during my suspect run, and I wanted to share my favourite sets that I made will building teams.

:sv/kyurem:
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Hidden Power: Fire
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost
Kyurem is ofc, a monster to answer defensively. Its got a variety of sets that all have different answers and it can be pretty annoying to answer. This was the set that I settled on though and it really proved its worth. IDT I have to explain the first two moves, every kyurem runs them for a reason. Freeze-dry+ep hits a large chunk of the meta super effectively. Now, typically there are a few mons that can stomach kyurem's attacks, those being m-scizor, ferro and corv. Thats where HP fire comes into play, as it nukes these switchins for large damage and forcing them on the backfoot. But the last move is a little more interesting. Roost I have found is a reall great tool for Kyurem, and I found it clicked more then Ice Beam, as while Ice Beam has great power, I found clicking Freeze Dry was just better. Roost not only allows Kyurem to heal off chip damage it faces from weaker mons, but it also can help enable Kyurem to check Pokemon such as Waterpon, Hamurott, Torn-T, Zapdos etc. This gives Kyurem a lot more flexibility in how it can be played IMO, as it can switch in easier while being harder to switch into itself.

:sv/volcarona:
Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
Hidden Power: Ground
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz / Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ground]
While this probably isn't a new set by any means, I do wanna bring attention to it. Life Orb has been an item people have experimented with since Volc was first introduced. But I feel like with the introduction of HDB, other items have fallen to the wayside (with the exception of some Z moves and lefties on subswarm sets). On a double hazard prevention HO, Life Orb can reliably be run and pushes Volcarona's damage to the extreme. +1 HP Ground does 98% min to spdef heatran, which means after rocks chip, it just dies instantly. Spdef toxapex also takes 48% min from it, meaning they are forced to recover and you can just QD again. It also does some obscene things to Glowking, dealing 50% min. I slashed Bug Buzz and Giga Drain as they are pretty switchable. Bug Buzz does better damage to M-Latios, M-ttar, and Garchomp, while Giga Drain can help heal Volc of its damage it has sustained and hits Water types like AV Hamu, Urshifu and Alomomola. I do think this set can be nasty if given the right support. Also would like to shoutout Psychium Z Volcarona for mogging Pokemon such as Toxapex and Clodsire that are meant to hardwall it, got hit by that once or twice on ladder.

:sv/moltres:
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Mystical Fire
- U-turn / Toxic
- Brave Bird
- Roost
BB moltres is a fascinating mon for me, and I've kinda come to love it. The primary thing is that it completely mogs SubSwam Volcarona, an otherwise irritating MU for a lot of bulkier teams that want to use other water types/Poisons instead of Toxapex or don't have a Heatran. Brave Bird ensures that Volcarona can never setup on you, as it otherwise takes massive damage from Brave Bird and because this is spdef, you can typically live a +1 Swarm Boosted Z move even after recoil. I went with Mystical Fire since this Moltres is not really spreading burns as much and it can help check stuff such as Kyurem and Ghold easier with the Special Attack drop. Last move is flexible, I liked U-turn to help pivot in and out of battle but Toxic is useful to put stuff like Mola on a timer.

:sv/venusaur:
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
- Synthesis
Needed to shout out the goat, when Zama-C wasn't being broken as shit this guy carried me hard. A lot of defensive teams currently feel like they have limited answers to this, as only really Corviknight and maybe Dragonite can switch into it. Steel types like Ferro and M-scizor that don't take a whole lot from EP don't really do a whole lot back typically, allowing M-venu to trade effectively while keeping itself healthy. But a really big trait of M-Venu is also that it checks a lot of powerful mons at the same time. Waterpon, Zama, Urshifu, Tapu Koko, M-Diancie are all Pokemon that M-venu can help softcheck at worst (and in some cases it counters). This opens up a lot of breathing room for teams that struggle with these threats, as M-Venu gives an option to answer them that can also fire back and keep up offensive pressure. Genuinelly amazing mon that should be used more.

:sv/lopunny mega:
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Klutz
Happiness: 0
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Frustration
- U-turn
I've been seeing a good amount of M-lopunny slander and while its fallen off a bit recently with the contact birds being more prevelant, I feel like part of that is that people are looking at the wrong mu's m-lopunny is supposed to help in and that the mon is not seeing experimentation. The primary role of M-lopunny is to be a revenge killer and offense mauler. Fast speed+fake out makes sure that any offensive mon is going to be in for a rough time no matter what, and with its strong stab combo, its able to hit most things neutrally. Unless you are an ID zama, you probably are not winning against a well played m-loppuny. People talk about its issues into Moltres and Zapdos primarily, but those issues aren't nearly as hurtful to m-loppuny since offensive teams won't have as many contact punishers. The best you have is maybe Lando-T or a Flame Body Volcarona, the latter of which is taking massive damage from fake out regardless. And in the defensive mu, loppuny simply needs to bring in dangerous wallbreakers like Z ghold or Kyurem that will play that MU for loppuny. If its crippled in that MU, its a lot more dealable since they prob won't have offensive threats as much that need revenge killing (the best I saw on samples was a defensive volc spread, which is a lot more dealable for defensive teams).

But onto that second point. Fake out, cc and frustration are ofc necessary. But I think the fourth moveslot is potentially really flexible and while I haven't done too much playing with them, I do think they can work out. They primarily are Encore, Heal Bell, Healing Wish, and Toxic. Encore is already used on a sample team but basically you can lock defensive Pokemon into utility moves to force a switch or lock a slower offensive mon into a setup move. This makes lopunny even more of an anti offense machine while helping give it a new depth against defensive teams. Cleric moves in general I think are potentially really good, but there is a lack of Pokemon that actually have the moves that could be viable, and even less that can click them. M-loppuny can probably fit it decently okay, and not only can it cure status moves for its teammates, but if faced with the contact birds, it can take that status and heal it off later, potentially being really scary if they had sacked a good amount of health for one of them. Healing Wish is probably better on more BO teams, but Healing Wish is a broken move. Setup sweepers such as CM Bolt, SD Waterpon and QD Volcarona are already incredibly difficult to deal with the first time, but potentially giving them a secondary chance to sweep can just win the game. Finally, Toxic can cripple those contact birds that usually wall Lopunny, while also dealing with annoying walls such as Tusk and Lando. And well, aside from Pex, none of the Toxic absorbers really like switching into Lopunny, so the move is potentially really free.
 
I played the ND Ladder for a good bit before and during my suspect run, and I wanted to share my favourite sets that I made will building teams.

:sv/kyurem:
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Hidden Power: Fire
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost
Kyurem is ofc, a monster to answer defensively. Its got a variety of sets that all have different answers and it can be pretty annoying to answer. This was the set that I settled on though and it really proved its worth. IDT I have to explain the first two moves, every kyurem runs them for a reason. Freeze-dry+ep hits a large chunk of the meta super effectively. Now, typically there are a few mons that can stomach kyurem's attacks, those being m-scizor, ferro and corv. Thats where HP fire comes into play, as it nukes these switchins for large damage and forcing them on the backfoot. But the last move is a little more interesting. Roost I have found is a reall great tool for Kyurem, and I found it clicked more then Ice Beam, as while Ice Beam has great power, I found clicking Freeze Dry was just better. Roost not only allows Kyurem to heal off chip damage it faces from weaker mons, but it also can help enable Kyurem to check Pokemon such as Waterpon, Hamurott, Torn-T, Zapdos etc. This gives Kyurem a lot more flexibility in how it can be played IMO, as it can switch in easier while being harder to switch into itself.

:sv/volcarona:
Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
Hidden Power: Ground
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz / Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ground]
While this probably isn't a new set by any means, I do wanna bring attention to it. Life Orb has been an item people have experimented with since Volc was first introduced. But I feel like with the introduction of HDB, other items have fallen to the wayside (with the exception of some Z moves and lefties on subswarm sets). On a double hazard prevention HO, Life Orb can reliably be run and pushes Volcarona's damage to the extreme. +1 HP Ground does 98% min to spdef heatran, which means after rocks chip, it just dies instantly. Spdef toxapex also takes 48% min from it, meaning they are forced to recover and you can just QD again. It also does some obscene things to Glowking, dealing 50% min. I slashed Bug Buzz and Giga Drain as they are pretty switchable. Bug Buzz does better damage to M-Latios, M-ttar, and Garchomp, while Giga Drain can help heal Volc of its damage it has sustained and hits Water types like AV Hamu, Urshifu and Alomomola. I do think this set can be nasty if given the right support. Also would like to shoutout Psychium Z Volcarona for mogging Pokemon such as Toxapex and Clodsire that are meant to hardwall it, got hit by that once or twice on ladder.

:sv/moltres:
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Mystical Fire
- U-turn / Toxic
- Brave Bird
- Roost
BB moltres is a fascinating mon for me, and I've kinda come to love it. The primary thing is that it completely mogs SubSwam Volcarona, an otherwise irritating MU for a lot of bulkier teams that want to use other water types/Poisons instead of Toxapex or don't have a Heatran. Brave Bird ensures that Volcarona can never setup on you, as it otherwise takes massive damage from Brave Bird and because this is spdef, you can typically live a +1 Swarm Boosted Z move even after recoil. I went with Mystical Fire since this Moltres is not really spreading burns as much and it can help check stuff such as Kyurem and Ghold easier with the Special Attack drop. Last move is flexible, I liked U-turn to help pivot in and out of battle but Toxic is useful to put stuff like Mola on a timer.

:sv/venusaur:
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
- Synthesis
Needed to shout out the goat, when Zama-C wasn't being broken as shit this guy carried me hard. A lot of defensive teams currently feel like they have limited answers to this, as only really Corviknight and maybe Dragonite can switch into it. Steel types like Ferro and M-scizor that don't take a whole lot from EP don't really do a whole lot back typically, allowing M-venu to trade effectively while keeping itself healthy. But a really big trait of M-Venu is also that it checks a lot of powerful mons at the same time. Waterpon, Zama, Urshifu, Tapu Koko, M-Diancie are all Pokemon that M-venu can help softcheck at worst (and in some cases it counters). This opens up a lot of breathing room for teams that struggle with these threats, as M-Venu gives an option to answer them that can also fire back and keep up offensive pressure. Genuinelly amazing mon that should be used more.

:sv/lopunny mega:
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Klutz
Happiness: 0
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Frustration
- U-turn
I've been seeing a good amount of M-lopunny slander and while its fallen off a bit recently with the contact birds being more prevelant, I feel like part of that is that people are looking at the wrong mu's m-lopunny is supposed to help in and that the mon is not seeing experimentation. The primary role of M-lopunny is to be a revenge killer and offense mauler. Fast speed+fake out makes sure that any offensive mon is going to be in for a rough time no matter what, and with its strong stab combo, its able to hit most things neutrally. Unless you are an ID zama, you probably are not winning against a well played m-loppuny. People talk about its issues into Moltres and Zapdos primarily, but those issues aren't nearly as hurtful to m-loppuny since offensive teams won't have as many contact punishers. The best you have is maybe Lando-T or a Flame Body Volcarona, the latter of which is taking massive damage from fake out regardless. And in the defensive mu, loppuny simply needs to bring in dangerous wallbreakers like Z ghold or Kyurem that will play that MU for loppuny. If its crippled in that MU, its a lot more dealable since they prob won't have offensive threats as much that need revenge killing (the best I saw on samples was a defensive volc spread, which is a lot more dealable for defensive teams).

But onto that second point. Fake out, cc and frustration are ofc necessary. But I think the fourth moveslot is potentially really flexible and while I haven't done too much playing with them, I do think they can work out. They primarily are Encore, Heal Bell, Healing Wish, and Toxic. Encore is already used on a sample team but basically you can lock defensive Pokemon into utility moves to force a switch or lock a slower offensive mon into a setup move. This makes lopunny even more of an anti offense machine while helping give it a new depth against defensive teams. Cleric moves in general I think are potentially really good, but there is a lack of Pokemon that actually have the moves that could be viable, and even less that can click them. M-loppuny can probably fit it decently okay, and not only can it cure status moves for its teammates, but if faced with the contact birds, it can take that status and heal it off later, potentially being really scary if they had sacked a good amount of health for one of them. Healing Wish is probably better on more BO teams, but Healing Wish is a broken move. Setup sweepers such as CM Bolt, SD Waterpon and QD Volcarona are already incredibly difficult to deal with the first time, but potentially giving them a secondary chance to sweep can just win the game. Finally, Toxic can cripple those contact birds that usually wall Lopunny, while also dealing with annoying walls such as Tusk and Lando. And well, aside from Pex, none of the Toxic absorbers really like switching into Lopunny, so the move is potentially really free.
Cool post, for Volcarona life Orb is definitely good although if you're not scared of missing I'd try it with fireblast>Flamethrower. Main reasons are the calcs on gliscor, max hp lando, and zama that may switch in immediately to live the hit and KO you with stone edge.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 261-308 (74.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 355-419 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 261-308 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 320-376 (90.9 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 433-511 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 320-376 (98.4 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (most important one imo)
 
Rant warning!!!

What is a healthy meta? I would consider that a healthy meta is a meta in which many different mons and playstyles are viable and the determining factors are skill in battle and teambuilding. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that a new addition to the tier should allow more mons and playstyles to be viable, or at least not hinder those of a somewhat questionable viability. Ideally, the said mon would ENABLE certain playstyles and mons (like ghold did with hazard stack) but NOT REQUIRE them from your opponent.

As someone who almost always builds around a lower tier mon, here are some lower tier mons which have some niche in OU (outside of HO slop), but get completely invalidated by zamaC itself, its most viable teammates (kingambit, mdiancie, maybe mttar), or the answers it forces on teams which want to reliably stop it not just maybe check it (zapdos, pex, dondozo, moltres).

Do somewhat fine vs normal zama, get objectively worse by adding zamaC (giving it free setup, etc): mega beedrill, mega altaria, alo muk, mega pinsir, mega aerodactyl, hydrapple, mega ttar (without zamaC as a teammate, opposing zamaC absorbs knock off and is immune to sand chip), clefable, meowscarada, ogerpon-cornerstone, mega mawile, archaludon and probably more

Most of the above mons have seen somewhat viable use in NDOU and they become straight up worse just from zamaC directly. Also glowking is straight up worse due to zamaC, and glowking is a very very common enabler for a lot of these mons.


Are enabled by zamaC specifically: none. This mon doesn’t enable anything, its only set is a lategame sweeper with a one time boosting ability which, unlike ival, either wins or is fully countered.

Get better due to enabling zamaC: kingabmit (as if he needed it), mega diancie (same), maybe mega ttar (you are better off running gambit for pure ghost killing purposes), some bird nukers (z dragonite, z garchomp)

Get better due to walling zamaC specifically: slowbro, amoonguss (not clear smog), mega venu, aegislash, pecharunt. Some of these I am not even sure win the matchup. Some are forced into a rocky helmet set to win the matchup. Kingambit eats most of them for breakfast.

Notably, the most splashable actual answer to zamaC, zapdos, GETS WORSE due to this matchup, as you are forced into a full bulk (maybe even pressure) set to win the zamaC 1v1.

Get better due to offensively threatening zamaC: mind blown scarf blacephalon (overheat is a 50/50 ko, flamethrower does 60ish, and guess whats the main counter to blacephalon…. Pursuit), volcarona (as if it needed that), zardy (same), iron moth, scarf eruption heatran (not a guaranteed ohko), dbond/wisp mega banette (lmao), some trick room attackers (with tr active, which probably involves a slowbro also existing), encore ival


Note that this analysis assumes stone edge is not a move, I think even HO players can figure out why more coverage makes it more broken.

I am still waiting to see what this mon brings to the meta, because it sure as hell takes away a lot from it.
 
not gonna be a big larppost but just some noticements on metagame from my time building n playing in cl

starting off strong but i think :clodsire: is allllllmost mandatory on stall to not get ur fkin salad tossed by np torn, with the sole exception of teams with max spdef chans which i think is pershonally too expoitable w hazards and gholdengo. cm bliss is an okay stopgap but i think if u dont want to get like actually fisted by a well played torn i think you rly need pjab clod. very strong guy for stall and random clod is pretty disgusting into teams that rely on ghold to get most of their breaking done (so do not build teams that rely only on ghold to get ur breaking done)

:cinderace: really bonkers guy. wisp is hard to come by and 4a sets r really bananas broken into a lot especially alo zap stuff that can really tend to get beyond doinked by gunk spam

:slowking-galar: probably my favorite mon in the tier rn. max def bold is suuuuper broken on structures with shit like band shifu or specs lele that just go grim reaper vs paralyzed guys.

:raging-bolt: extremely underutilized on non-sun. specs is really bananas and probably my favorite of em but i think av or boots can probably have some merit. i think cm lefties stuff probably needs to be on shit like webs but not the worst shit ever.

:zapdos: zapdos. slowking zapdos treads. zapdos alo treads. zapdos zapdos zapdos zapdos


ok but in all seriousness this core is being used in ways that dont capitalize on its strengths and especially being played by a lot of people in wrong ways. do you have a fire or water resist... no. but what oyu do get is a core that enables you to use some bullshit like garde or band hrott or band shifu. in fact, you NEED to be using this bullshit to get really any value out of this core because offensively they're pretty extremely lacking, especially into stuff like ting-lu. you need to play with some real cognizance regarding the quagmire you can very quickly when trying to not get either bowled over or keeping up your own momentum. if you're just loading up slowking zap treads zama, DO NOT add some shit like fucking quakespinner dnite or msciz because thats just very bluntly not how you can play with these types of squads.

:kingambit: really strong guy that sees a lot of like.... indifference(?) towards in the builder and ingame. people will see kgb + potential twave guys and just let their fighters get owned by zapdos or twave or just get chipped down and it feels kind of insane to watch in real time. 3a glasses suit is a set im really liking these days but i think just the regular sd lefties is also really good. i think people fail to play around kingambit as more of a midgame threat like sm or oras bisharp and instead see the supreme boost and decide that this guy can ONLY come in last. knock is really fucking broken guys!

:melmetal: :tapu-koko: :iron-valiant: imo these guys are really weak and kind of struggle to find a place on most squada atm. i think koko is the best here by a pretty large margin but i think melm is really hard to justify in its role of "im a tradebot vs offense and fucking handless victorian orphan vs anything else" whereas ival is just so mid its kind of unreal

:gardevoir-mega: hyper voice + vacuum wave + psyshock is pretty bananas and im a big fan.

:choice-band: :samurott-hisui: clicking big band ceaseless is pretty fkin good man

iron head spdef :corviknight: really good lele mdia answer especially for stall.

payback :ting-lu: imo this is almost always gonna serve you better into stuff like zapdos moltres mtios torn even yard! really cool guy very strong yes

:terapagos: turtle is pretty shit ngl especially as we see pech rise in usage i think this guy is really gapped by most other removal forms. also there's the whole crux of like yes you beat ghold 1v1 but most hstack builds are VERY happy to trade ghold for your only form of removal being gone. ghold just breaking shell is enough for their zama or shifu or mlop to come in and just click fighting move on ur slow ass and blow you to bits. its kind of okay as a sweeping stopgap vs stuff like dnite or chomp but i think there's so many better ways of doing that in the tier that having to slot removal that you need to handhold is just almost always never gonna be worth it.

anyways i need to go study for organic synthesis cya nerds

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<- eternal damnation
 
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