• Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!

Tournaments RBY Lower Tier Team Tournament Proposal + Format Discussion

gastlies

gastlies

time cast a spell on you but you wont forget me
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Metagame Resource Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
UPL Champion
Hello Everyone,

The RBY Lower Tier leadership has been discussing a new type of team tournament for RBY Lower Tiers. The two main tournaments featuring RBY Lower Tiers are RBYPL and ALTPL, after that it is just cross-generation tournaments across the board. Although inclusion in these cross-generation team tournaments has been a massive success across all the tiers, there is a core issue in these tours where you aren't really playing with other RBYers. Anybody who has played in these tournaments can tell you that they are usually left on their own when it comes to teambuilding and reviewing games. Additionally, you need to already be an established RBY lowtier player to get drafted for the cross-generational teamtours. One benefit of having tours like RBYPL and ALTPL is that there are other RBYers on your team, promoting a more collaborative environment and making it easier to push/develop the metagame. Another benefit is that more slots mean less established players have more chance to play these tiers in a team setting.

Because of these benefits, we believe that it would be a massive benefit to Lower Tiers if there was another team tournament exclusively focused on them, featuring Ubers, UU, NU, PU, and ZU. We want to ask you all if there is interest in this tournament and if so, what the format should be?

1. Should this tournament even exist?
I've already mentioned the pros for this tournament existing, as it gives lower tier players another tournament where they can play with other RBYers on their team. This is especially crucial for PU and ZU, where ALTPL doesn't even feature them so all they have is RBYPL and RBYOMPL, respectively. However, we are still in a point in time where RBY Lower Tiers are being played more than ever. Every tier has at least two individual tournaments and two team tournaments. UU and NU in particular already have RBYPL, ALTPL, UUFPL/NUFL, and UUCL/NUCL, making this their fifth team tour of the year. Because of this, it is a fair point to ask if this tournament is even necessary in the first place, as it may seem like overkill. Furthermore, this tour will likely take place during the summer, as November-February is RBYPL/ALTPL season, and we don't want to overlap with RBYOMPL either. This means there will likely be overlap with RBY Grand Slam, which is already one of the most active times for lower tiers.

2. What should the format be?
Let's assume the community supports the creation of this tour. Now we have to decide a format. There are a few options I have for what the format of this tour should be, but if you have a better idea feel free to bring it up.

1. Six Teams, Six Slots: Ubers, UU, NU, PU, ZU, and Grand Slam Bo5 OR undrafted bo3. (36 starters).
This to me feels like the "default" option. It features all 5 core lower tiers once and then has a "highlight" Grand Slam bo5 slot similar to that of RBY's OU Bo5, or an undrafted bo3 slot similar to that done in ADPL. In total there will be 36 starters, which to me feels like enough to give less experienced players a chance to start while also maintaining pool quality. The Grand Slam slot is something I would like feedback on. It encourages all teams to draft someone with knowledge in multiple RBY lower tiers, and since the person in this slot will likely be a strong player, it guarantees high quality games. The main downside I see is that there are very few players who play all five tiers, especially when it comes to Ubers. If only 1-2 people sign up for the tour that actually play all 5 tiers, then this will likely inflate their price and put whichever team drafts them at a big advantage. They might also not want to play this tier, instead choosing to play whichever lowtier is their "favorite". Alternatively, the undrafted bo3 helps with the goal of giving more people access to lowtiers. This set will happen place in one tier, which rotates every week (5 week regular season = each tier happens once).

2. Four Teams, Ten Slots: Ubers x2, UU x2, NU x2, PU x2, ZU x2 (40 Starters)
This option allows for larger team sizes. Since the point of this tour is to introduce new players and push the metagame, larger teams concentrate players together, making it easier for people to cooperate. There will be more experienced players per team helping newer players and trying to develop new ideas together. Four team formats generally have six-week regular seasons, with each team playing each other twice then the top two teams making finals. I'm not sure how well-liked a four team format is, so this is something to consider.

3. Four/Six Teams, Eight Slots: Ubers, UU, NU, PU x2, ZU x2, and Grand Slam Bo5 OR undrafted bo3 (32/48 starters).
This format is intentionally asymmetrical as to give more games to PU and ZU. Currently, RBY UU and RBY NU have four team tournaments a year, while PU and ZU only have two. Because of this, PU and ZU "need" this tournament more than UU and NU, so they have an extra slot. I was considering making Slot #8 an Ubers x2, as it is only in three tournaments and it may be cut from UPL in the near future, but RBY Ubers notably has a smaller playerbase than the other lower tiers, so finding the starters may be difficult. I think either 4 or 6 teams can work with this format. 4x8 feels a little small while 6x8 feels a little big, so unsure which way to go here. I think 4 teams makes the Grand Slam Bo5 slot more balanced as well since only four "generalist" players are needed rather than six so it is easier for each team to have a good player for it.

Feel free to discuss below if you have any comments/feedback on the logistics of this tour.
 
Last edited:
I'll keep this post relatively short because it's very late where I live, but I'm not sure that a competition like RBY Lower Tiers Premier League is entirely necessary. RBYPL includes all of these tiers, with the exception of ZU, which is likely to be added in the future anyway. However, I could see this tournament being interesting if we decide to include tiers that are currently included in RBYOMPL, such as SubZero Used, Little Cup, and Nintendo Cup 1997. All three of the aforementioned tiers are more suited to a lower-tier setting compared to being classified as an alternate or other metagame, and since these tours have their own devoted player base, I would argue that their inclusion in the proposed RBY Lower Tiers PL wouldn't result in noticeably weaker competition or turnout for these tiers.

RBYOMPL, as a result, could establish itself more formally as a competition centered around "Other Metagames," in which you could feature the likes of Tradebacks (UU), Stadium Rentals, Monotype, and any other possible tiers that might warrant being included. Whether there remains a demand after these changes is uncertain, but I believe there is a level of intrigue that makes this version of RBYOMPL worth exploring.

If this tournament was to go ahead, here is what I propose:
Format - 6 teams x 8 slots
Ubers
UU
NU
PU
ZU
SU
LC
Nintendo Cup 1997 / Ubers 2 (bo5?)

Of course, given my background, I recommend folks to take my opinions here with a grain of salt. With that said, I do believe this is something we should be considering if we do decide to commence forward with this tournament.

Thank you for your time.
 
I think a tournament for lower tiers in rby is a great idea. The other team tournaments that already exist for lower tier representation are RBYPL and ALTPL, and none of these two tournaments are particularly known to be rookie-friendly.

My personal vision for such tournament would be a 6 teams, 8 slots with
Ubers x2
UU x2
NU x2
PU
ZU

I think a format that accounts for the popularity of Ubers, UU, and NU, over PU and ZU is preferable. But I also understand the point of view to give every tier an equivalent representation in the tournament, so another option that would be good is simply one slot of every lower tier, from Ubers to ZU + a filler.

I wish everyone a nice Thursday
 
I like eledyrs suggestion in the sense that if you want more slots just double up the more popular tiers. i think having a tour like this with just a whole team of people playing lowtiers is good even if theres rbypl representation because in that tour more lowtier players are left on an island. also if you add Nintendo cup that stuff is total garbage and instantly makes me not want to remotely care about this tour, why even play if part of the week is decided by a game of THAT cmon
 
I love the idea of there being a dedicated lower tier team tournament, but it would need to come with an adjusted RBYOMPL so that there isn’t as much overlap of formats. My preference for such a tournament would be for it to have a larger player pool rather than smaller, so that it can better serve as development for newer, but still serious, players. Zpice’s suggestion of 6x8 would probably hit the mark. That said LC feels more like an OM and would probably do better in the OMPL rather than a LTPL.

Maybe something like:
Ubers (Bo3)
UU (Bo3)
NU (Bo3)
PU (Bo3)
ZU (Bo3)
SU (Bo3)
And then 2 slots that are voted in that are either Bo3/Bo5 double ups or are multi format. Maybe UU Tradebacks as an option?
 
Last edited:
2x Ubers
1x UU Bo5
1x UU Bo3
1x NU Bo5
1x NU Bo3
1x PU
1x ZU

so basically what Eledyr said.

This tournament is not worthwhile without doubling up on those slots, because otherwise you may have a scenario with the same people just starting in those tiers anyways. Let the big guns play (in the Bo5 slots) and give some rookies a shot in the 2nd slots.
 
Some thoughts in this thread:

Other Tiers
So strictly speaking SU and LC are not officially LTs in RBY context. It's been established that the RBY Lowtiers are just the five Slam tiers: Ubers, UU, NU, PU, and ZU, while everything else falls under OMs. However, SU and LC are a lot "closer" to being LTs than other OMs, with SU being based off of ZU's VR and LC having greater support in other generations. Since SU and LC fit the general spirit of lowtiers well enough, I am open to including them if there is enough support. However, I am more opposed to adding tiers like NC97 since they generally don't follow Smogon's tiering system. SU and LC are much closer to being lowtiers than NC97 is. I also think Tradebacks UU is also much more like an OM than an LT so I'm not really interested in including that either. SU is also the lowest tier that will be included if it is included at all; IU and whatever letter comes after won't be in this tour.

I also think if SU and LC are included they should not be cut from RBYOMPL, it doesn't hurt to give these guys two teamtours a year since they are two of the more popular ones.

Ubers x2
Although I love this tier, this is something I would be opposed to in a six team format (which seems to be the popular format). The main reason for this is playerbase concerns. RBY Ubers has the smallest playerbase compared to the other lower tiers, so finding 12 starters may be difficult, especially since less experienced players generally aren't drawn towards Ubers anyway so we might end up putting a bunch of people in a tier they don't want to play.

Other LTs x2
So it looks like ppl are more in favor of giving UU and NU the x2 slot rather than PU and ZU, with the implication being that slot 1 is reserved for established players while slot 2 is reserved for newer players. I'm wondering if we do this approach, we should make this enforceable in some way? For example if you had VR reqs for RBY UU last year then you are banned from UU slot 2, so that way it encourages newer players to try out the tier. Obviously some random established lowtier player who just happened to not play UU that year going into slot 2 would be unfair, so there is probably some subjectivity here in who is allowed in slot 2.
 
1x Ubers
1x UU
1x NU
1x PU
1x ZU
1x Slam bo5

Don't include troll tiers like Sub-ZU and Nintendo Cup. Nintendo Cup especially that tiers an actual joke and would severely decrease the tours viability. Also don't include 2x of any low tier, they don't have the playerbase for it. Ubers especially.
 
I do wonder as well. Why do we always, always and I mean always need to have every teamtour as open as possible and specifically done to get more "new" players playing. This is framed as of we do not already have every single one of our other teamtours extremely accessible for newer players. RBYPL, ALTPL, RBYOMPL, and every single multi gen LT teamtour already have practically 0 barrier to entry. They in fact struggle to get players to fill the amount of slots, which frequently results in shallow pools filled with these newer players, ALTPL especially was a prime example of this.

I always hear that rhetoric, but only Ubers has a real prestigous place to play the tier; UPL, which I might add may not last. UU, NU, PU, and ZU are not included in their respective tier's PL and probably never will be. We sorely lack spaces for the best of the best players to duke it out, where every single set, every single week is high quality, impactful, and entertaining. This is another reason why I emphatically make the case that this tour should have only 1x of each lowertier. Yes, they could theoretically be filled, but they will not be particularly good. Why do this when newer players already get countless entry points at practically every turn while players looking for high quality LT matches don't particularly have many places to look at.
 
No strong opinion on tiers and I'm not sure I'm gonna sign up (but who knows, it's some time until summer), but what I would like to see are at least some bo5 slots. Probably not for Ubers, but I really think bo5 for rbypl LT was the right call.

There just is a lot of variance in lower tier games and the games are significantly shorter than OU (at least in ZU and PU for sure), so its probably comparable time commitment than an OU bo3.

After having played some of both bo5 feels more competitive and is a lot more enjoyable for me.
 
NotVeryCake said:
I do wonder as well. Why do we always, always and I mean always need to have every teamtour as open as possible and specifically done to get more "new" players playing. This is framed as of we do not already have every single one of our other teamtours extremely accessible for newer players. RBYPL, ALTPL, RBYOMPL, and every single multi gen LT teamtour already have practically 0 barrier to entry. They in fact struggle to get players to fill the amount of slots, which frequently results in shallow pools filled with these newer players, ALTPL especially was a prime example of this.


I always hear that rhetoric, but only Ubers has a real prestigous place to play the tier; UPL, which I might add may not last. UU, NU, PU, and ZU are not included in their respective tier's PL and probably never will be. We sorely lack spaces for the best of the best players to duke it out, where every single set, every single week is high quality, impactful, and entertaining.
Click to expand...
We are not trying to make the most prestigious team tournament to play RBY lowers: that tournament is RBYPL and has been for years. I hear you and if you're looking for high quality, impactful and entertaining sets that you show up for rbypl once again when its the time of the year
NotVeryCake said:
This is another reason why I emphatically make the case that this tour should have only 1x of each lowertier. Yes, they could theoretically be filled, but they will not be particularly good. Why do this when newer players already get countless entry points at practically every turn while players looking for high quality LT matches don't particularly have many places to look at.
Click to expand...

You are not going to fix the issue of a shallow pool by adding barriers to entry: we are a small community and players retire, or simply dont sign up. This tournament is an entry point for new faces without diminishing our established players at all: the double slot is strictly a positive for the quality of the higher slot with two players workshopping together in a team environment toward the same tier. Feel free to not watch the second slot if you find those games unsatisfying to you: you will still get to see the familiar faces in the first slots

NotVeryCake said:
I always hear that rhetoric, but only Ubers has a real prestigous place to play the tier; UPL, which I might add may not last. UU, NU, PU, and ZU are not included in their respective tier's PL and probably never will be. We sorely lack spaces for the best of the best players to duke it out, where every single set, every single week is high quality, impactful, and entertaining.
Click to expand...

As you've said yourself, it is unlikely RBY will be included within these Premier Leagues, and Ubers' place in its PL looks uncertain right now. You're welcome to stick to the idea that you'll only find high quality games in tournaments smogon deems "official", and evidently rby's future within them is up in the air.

Players outside of rby playing rby tiers is how they get past the "rby is all rng its the luckiest player always winning its just coinflips" attitude. Talking to rby players in their crossgen tours can only go so far, especially with how separated the tier often is. Ideally, we will get some new faces in the community with this tournament.

It's very important how rby tiers are discussed in the communities around the official PL tours: if you have experience positively discussing RBY Ubers to potentially improve its reputation with the Ubers community i would certainly be open to hearing any suggestions you may have, or any productive discussion toward improving how its seen in the community.
 
Last edited:
As someone who is trying to branch from monotype, I have often eyeballed rby and it’s many formats for a while now. So, even tho I’m a nobody in these streets, I do want to say I think this is a perfect idea. It seems like this is a side tournament for RBY that doesn’t take away from any of the other mainline high tournaments (premier league, etc.)


To my knowledge, I believe RBY Monotype was also added as well. Would be fun to see a little Monotype action along with PU & ZU.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top